Indian Military Helicopters

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 31 Dec 2015 00:16

Nuggets of information about ALH flight envelop from HAL's tender for OBSTACLE AVOIDANCE SYSTEM FOR ALH.

Rate of climb : 740 m/min for ALH Utility(Mk III variant) and 670m/min for ALH WSI(Mk IV variant)
Rate of descent : 900 m/min for ALH Utility(Mk III variant) and 900 m/min for ALH WSI(Mk IV variant)

Notice that this is higher than the 10.3 mtrs/sec reported this far. For the utility variant it is 12.3 mtrs/sec. For Rudra, it is 11.13m/sec.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 31 Dec 2015 00:31

Meanwhile a tender for a ventilation fan for LUH, specifies that:

- LUH’s altitude ceiling is expected to be 6500 meters and the Ventilation Fan of LUH shall be cleared up to 7000 meters.
- LUH will be integrated with a Gun (Caliber 12.7 mm Max).

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 31 Dec 2015 06:13

shiv wrote:India needs far more helos than 200 Ka 226s. Besides the whole idea of make in India is to have a lead integrator who subcontracts components. The Russians have done separate deals with reliance and HAL. HAL will be able to outsource components to reliance and it is win win for all. This will not necessarily be a zero sum game between HAL and Reliance

Doctor Saheb:

I agree that India needs a lot more than just 200 light helos, but I am afraid now it will be 400 KA226 and 0 LUH. Anyway, we shall see how the chips fall

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2015 06:42

Kakkaji wrote: Doctor Saheb:

I agree that India needs a lot more than just 200 light helos, but I am afraid now it will be 400 KA226 and 0 LUH. Anyway, we shall see how the chips fall

Kakkaji neither you nor I will remember this post of yours to say that the other person was wrong in 10 years time. What you are expressing is an anxiety and it is your view. What I am expressing is a lack of such anxiety and that is my view. Best to leave it at that.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jan 2016 13:09

The danger of helo ops in the current RPG ,anti-air world. The US/west have lost a large number of attack helos,etc to the Taliban in Af-Pak. The armour and protection devices of helos has to be further improved and the use of more close-support light aircraft,less vulnerable to ground fire, to take over low-level helo ops must increase.

US soldier killed and others wounded in Afghanistan as rescue helicopter comes under fire
Special operations forces involved in a counter-terrorism operation in Helmand province when they came under attack
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -fire.html

One US special operations soldier has been killed in Afghanistan with at least two others wounded, and a rescue helicopter that tried to reach them was forced to make an emergency landing after encountering mortar fire.

The soldiers had been taking part in a joint US-Afghan counter-terrorism operation near the town of Marjah in the southern Afghan province of Helmand, which has been the site of heavy fighting with the Taliban. They reportedly came under heavy fire from insurgents during the operation.

A Taliban spokesman claimed that the group shot down a US helicopter during the battle. According to the Pentagon, however, the helicopter was not shot down but was forced to make an emergency landing amid mortar and small arms fire.

LATEST: DOD: One US service member killed, 2 others wounded during operations in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. pic.twitter.com/pcbj97xGHZ
— ABC News (@ABC) January 5, 2016

That medevac helicopter landed safely in Marjah but was, at least initially, unable to reach the wounded soldiers. It is unclear whether the helicopter was struck.

"We can confirm a U.S. helicopter has landed in Marjah, Helmand Province, and is experiencing mechanical problems. It was not shot down," said Army Colonel Michael Lawhorn.

A US Army spokesman confirmed that a soldier had been killed.

"One US service member died as a result of wounds sustained during operations near Marja in Helmand Province today. Additionally, two US service members were wounded," Brigadier General Wilson Shoffner said in a statement.

Helmand province, Afghanistan, November 2009. Pictures by Heathcliff O'Malley for the Sunday TelegraphA Marine door gunner on a Sea King helicopter bound for British base FOB Shawqat in the Nad e'Ali district of Helmand Province Photo: Heathcliff O'Malley

"We are deeply saddened by this loss," he said, "our heartfelt sympathies go out to the families and friends of those involved"

Afghan Army soldiers were also reportedly wounded in the operation.

Helmand is a Taliban stronghold, and much of the opium that provides most of the group’s revenue comes from the province.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 10 Jan 2016 05:16

LCH on HAL Day. No higher resolution or untouched versions available, which is a shame.

Modi ji wants the new HAL factory to start pumping out helicopters under two years. The factory will house production lines for LCH, LUH, NMRH and possibly NMRH.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Jan 2016 03:20

Some higher resolution images.

Some are too large to inline. Click for higher resolution.

And one more.
http://www.bangaloremirror.com/photo/50301169.cms

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Jan 2016 06:33

indranilroy wrote:Some higher resolution images.

Thanks for posting.

There is a red and yellow livery ALH with floats carrying the tail designation ZD. What does that indicate?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Jan 2016 07:03

Seems to have a FLIR, winch and more. Companion, with a skid (no FLIR or a winch):

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 11 Jan 2016 07:35

shiv wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Some higher resolution images.
Thanks for posting.

There is a red and yellow livery ALH with floats carrying the tail designation ZD. What does that indicate?

Doc ji given the floats plus wheels plus what effectively looks like MK3 gear and flir best guess i reckon is a IN MK3 bird in special livery onlee.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Jan 2016 07:52

andy B wrote: Doc ji given the floats plus wheels plus what effectively looks like MK3 gear and flir best guess i reckon is a IN MK3 bird in special livery onlee.

I tried to look for any externally visible mods of the rotors (eg for folding), but was unable to make anything out. On second thoughts those may not be floats.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 11 Jan 2016 08:29

It has IAF roundels and some extra gear in the rear in between the rear wheels.

wig · Post by **wig** » 11 Jan 2016 09:02

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 82092.html

Mi-17s to get gunfire sensors
IAF needs light-weight systems with ‘strap-on’ capability | Process on to identify vendors

The IAF plans to equip its Mi-17 helicopters with small arms fire detection systems (SAFDS) that will warn aircrew about the range, angle and direction of incoming hostile gunfire from the ground during combat operations.
The system will be an added advantage during operations undertaken in close support of ground troops during war, heli-borne insertion of troops, special missions as well as counter-terrorist operations, where helicopters operate in close proximity to the ground.
The SAFDS will also be useful in situations like the terror strike at the Pathankot air base earlier this month, where Mi-17s were also deployed for aerial surveillance and there was a possibility of them being fired upon.
The Indian Air Force has also been providing logistic support to paramilitary forces deployed in anti-Maoist operations and there have been several instances of these being fired upon. At least two Mi-17s are reported to have suffered damaged in such incidents.
The Air Headquarters is in the process of identifying suitable vendors for the equipment and a request for information in this regard has recently been issued by the Ministry of Defence.
The systems will be retrofitted on the Indian Air Force’s M-17 fleet by Kazan Helicopters, the Russian company that manufactures the Mi series of helicopters, rather than the aircraft being modified in India.
The Indian Air Force is looking for SAFDS that are light-weight with a “strap-on” capability so that one system can be deployed on more than one particular helicopter airframe. These will be ruggedised, have day-night and all-weather operation capability and function effectively in all phases of flight like take-off, climb, cruise, hover, descent and landing.
Apart from the Indian Air Force, the Army and the Border Security Force are also evaluating ground-based SAFDS for deployment along the Line of Control and some stretches of the International Border that have witnessed regular ceasefire violations.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Jan 2016 04:47

shiv wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Some higher resolution images.
Thanks for posting.

There is a red and yellow livery ALH with floats carrying the tail designation ZD. What does that indicate?

That is an interesting one Hakim. I was hoping against hope that this is the version with the foldable wings. But most likely, it is their display model in the wheeled "utility" configuration with all the bells and whistles. It is the wheeled version with the housing for the IDAS(I don't think the systems are present), chaff and flare dispensers, FLIR turret, and rescue hoist.

Interestingly, I realized something recently.
1. Not all wheeled versions have retractable landing gears. This one for example doesn't have one.
2. On Navy and CG Dhruvs, the rescue hoist boom is on the starboard side. For everybody else, including the IAF, it is on the port side.

member_22605 · Post by **member_22605** » 12 Jan 2016 05:19

Its a simple RWRDC ALH wheel version prototype.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Jan 2016 05:34

Raghu,

How much will it hurt you to give us an update on the status of LUH, LCH and NMRH/IMRH

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Jan 2016 23:06

Karan M wrote:Deejay how was the serviceability of the Mi-17s and Mi-8s? Was it at the required IAF 75% and above level or even there, did tardy Russian spares etc cause an issue?

The serviceability was usually >=60%, with 80% serviceability being once or twice a month event. 100% serviceability was an annual event.

This was because of cannibalization (Christmas Tree) of usually one helicopter, 01-02 helicopters under periodic servicing (50 Hrs / 100 Hrs.) and if another developed a 'snag' then that would get the number of aircraft available down to 06 out of 10 aircraft in the unit strength.

Helicopters have more rotables and hence more spare intensive maintenance. Also, helicopters fly much more than fighters per year. Therefore 02 in 10 under maintenance was a good plan for the STO, FLt Cdr to have a nice fleet rotation. 01 aircraft under cannibalization was mostly for some major component not available at short notice like governors, gear boxes, etc.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Jan 2016 23:10

^^ Thanks. Looks like 60% for Russian gear is the de facto standard & its indian effort that takes it more than that. I wonder in that case, the "wisdom" of GOI going for more Ka-226s.

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 15 Jan 2016 23:31

When we have TOT on SU 30 to manufacturing then we are responsible for what % we have availability of SU 30.
Why we blaming the Russian.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Jan 2016 23:41

Read the reports. They delayed TOT and many spares continue to come up from them.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Jan 2016 07:12

'Make in India' challenge for Kamov helicopter

Ajai Shukla | New Delhi
January 18, 2016 Last Updated at 00:40 IST

After Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Moscow last month yielded an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) on supplying the Kamov-226T light helicopter to India's military, both sides are struggling to meet the challenging 'Make in India' requirement of building 50 per cent of the helicopter in India.

Neither side is willing to speak on the record, but Russian sources tell Business Standard that Moscow has accepted responsibility only for indigenising Russian components, which would fall short of the indigenisation level required.

These sources say the IGA requires New Delhi to negotiate separately with third country vendors for indigenising their components and systems, which make up about two-third of the Kamov-226T. Russian Helicopters, which has developed the Kamov-226T, has sourced its twin engines - which constitute one-third of the chopper's cost - from French company, Turbomeca. Other key systems and avionics have been sourced from the global market.

HAL sources confirm: "We will have to work with third-country suppliers and co-co-opt them into the indigenization effort to meet the "Make in India" goals.

Adding to the difficulty, the IGA permits Russian Helicopters to deliver the first 60 helicopters in flyaway condition.

These would be assembled entirely in Russia, with little scope for indigenisation. That would also be the case with the next 40 or so helicopters, shipped as kits from Russia to be assembled in India.

That leaves just 100 helicopters for meeting the 50 per cent 'Make in India' goals over the entire fleet of 200.

HAL, along with other Indian manufacturers, is negotiating with third-party suppliers outside Russia to build Kamov-226T components and systems in India. Bharat Forge is understood to be in talks with Turbomeca to part-build the Kamov-226T's engines in India.

Russian sources say the Kamov-226T indigenisation has been complicated by an unusually detailed IGA. Traditionally, IGAs consist only of broad statements of intent.

This IGA, unprecedentedly, mandates an Indo-Russian joint venture for building the helicopter, with a 50.5 per cent stake for HAL, and a 49.5 per cent stake for Russian Helicopters. HAL is permitted to co-opt an Indian vendor with part of its stake.

According to Russian sources closely involved in negotiating this IGA, "It forms a new model of cooperation between India and Russia, developed specifically for the Kamov-226T.

The IGA specifies a nine-year period for delivering 200 Kamov-226T helicopters, which begins from the signature of the contract. That amounts to an unambitious 22 helicopters a year.

The defence ministry believes that India's military, and civilian users like ONGC, Pawan Hans and corporates, will require about 600 new light helicopters when the venerable Chetak/Cheetah fleet is phased out. But the Kamov-226T will have to compete for this market with HAL's new Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), which is ready to make its first flight.

Business Standard found, during a recent visit to HAL, that the LUH is on track to make its first flight by February. According to HAL projections, the LUH would complete flight certification by mid-2017 and enter production by the year-end.

The defence ministry has assured HAL it will buy about 200 LUH. With the IGA assuring Russian Helicopters that India would buy 200 choppers, the bulk of the order for the remaining 200 would fall to whichever manufacturer delivers 200 helicopters first.

With HAL's helicopter close to its first flight, planning has begun for production. On January 3, the prime minster laid the foundation stone for HAL's new facility in Tumkur, where the LUH would be built. Modi declared that the first helicopter built there would take flight by 2018.

Seems like the same problems of servicing the PC-7s in India. The OEM can only guarantee for about 30% of the parts. The user has to discuss with individual companies spread across the world to get the other 70%.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jan 2016 08:51

Karan M wrote:Read the reports. They delayed TOT and many spares continue to come up from them.

IF IAF is willing the shed money like they are doing for Rafale and keep availability of spares for 5-10 years and build associated infra to maintain it then they can get high uptime from MKI for that matter any other aircraft. Maintaing a high uptime also means substantial increase in maintenance cost as procurement of spares in advance would need investment

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jan 2016 10:15

indranilroy wrote:Seems like the same problems of servicing the PC-7s in India. The OEM can only guarantee for about 30% of the parts. The user has to discuss with individual companies spread across the world to get the other 70%.

Indranil what happens when say we export Tejas , will the end user will have to negotiate separately with US, Israel etc and will End USer Monitoring will apply for user for GE engine ?

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 18 Jan 2016 10:49

'Make in India' challenge for Kamov helicopter

Ajai Shukla | New Delhi
January 18, 2016 Last Updated at 00:40 IST

Adding to the difficulty, the IGA permits Russian Helicopters to deliver the first 60 helicopters in flyaway condition.

The defence ministry believes that India's military, and civilian users like ONGC, Pawan Hans and corporates, will require about 600 new light helicopters when the venerable Chetak/Cheetah fleet is phased out. But the Kamov-226T will have to compete for this market with HAL's new Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), which is ready to make its first flight.

Business Standard found, during a recent visit to HAL, that the LUH is on track to make its first flight by February. According to HAL projections, the LUH would complete flight certification by mid-2017 and enter production by the year-end.

The defence ministry has assured HAL it will buy about 200 LUH. With the IGA assuring Russian Helicopters that India would buy 200 choppers, the bulk of the order for the remaining 200 would fall to whichever manufacturer delivers 200 helicopters first.

With HAL's helicopter close to its first flight, planning has begun for production. On January 3, the prime minster laid the foundation stone for HAL's new facility in Tumkur, where the LUH would be built. Modi declared that the first helicopter built there would take flight by 2018.

I would love to know what sort of politics are going on behind the scenes with the LUH and Kamov-226T. If HAL were really so close to certifying the LUH by mid-2017 and start mass producing by 2018, you would think MoD would just order some helicopters off the shelf or at least lease them until LUH is ready if they are confident in the project. Seems like MoD and Army are genuinely worried that the project might not go according to schedule or be manufactured at levels fast enough and so the 226T is their 'backup'. Hopefully it doesn't end up like T-90 fiasco where Arjun got sidelined from corrupt and biased trials.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Jan 2016 23:34

I don't understand this either. I feel it is a mess in the making. They could have easily given this to the Tatas. They have significant experience with building helicopter parts, and are on track to build complete helicopters.

The same could be said about PC-7 maintenance contracts. Tatas are going to manufacture the entire airframe of the Pilatus PC-12s afterall.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 19 Jan 2016 04:03

indranilroy wrote:I don't understand this either. I feel it is a mess in the making. They could have easily given this to the Tatas. They have significant experience with building helicopter parts, and are on track to build complete helicopters.

The same could be said about PC-7 maintenance contracts. Tatas are going to manufacture the entire airframe of the Pilatus PC-12s afterall.

Maybe Tatas do not want to partner with Kamov. Thay already have partnerships with Sikorsky, Boeing and Airbus.

The only private sector companies that seemed to be interested in partnership with Kamov were Reliance and the Khemka Group. Both were dodgy bets for Kamov. So the Russians chose to partner with HAL instead.

Yesterday I read a news article in which Parrikar said the MoD is looking to establish an Aircraft or Helicopter manufacturing unit near Delhi in Rajasthan, and are looking for land in the Alwar district for that purpose. I assume when he said MoD, it is most likely HAL that will establish the unit. So, probably that is where the KA226 will be made whereas the new Tumkur facility will manufacture the ALH, LCH, and the LUH.

The contract with Kamov is for a shareholding of 50.5% by HAL and 49.5% by Russia. HAL will be allowed to bring in other Indian partners. So, I am thinking the Khemkas, who have deep connections in the Russian establishment, will probably be allowed to pick up stake from the Indian side.

I also think the MoD is thinking of KA226 as insurance against slippages in the LUH program. The Chhetahs/ Chetaks are way overdue for replacement, and any slippages in the LUH will likely result in additional orders for the KA226.

Just my speculation only.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Jan 2016 04:30

Good points.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 19 Jan 2016 06:27

I also suspect, given that HAL Helicopter Division has so many programs to manage whereby there is a risk of it losing focus, the IA/ IAF would rather prefer that it deliver on the LCH first. If it comes to a choice, the LUH requirement can be met by the KA226, but there is no affordable substitute for the LCH for the numbers that the IA/ IAF need.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jan 2016 06:45

if the engine and gearbox are western, the core of the KA226 is western. avionics will be austere given its utility role.
HAL already has tied to turbomeca on a big scale.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Jan 2016 09:02

To me, one of the major gains could be if HAL could figure out a way to provide an option of LUH with twin-engine configuration of Ka-226.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 19 Jan 2016 11:57

Not sure what the two engines will bring to LUH other than more complexity. Given that we are using shakti for LUH is excellent for commonality and building operations and spares pipeline that works for both type. I think the LUH is probably in a far advanced state and the configuration is well settled on right now.

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 19 Jan 2016 12:20

What we know is that Kamov chose HAL, and that what is at stake is an additional +200 orders which will surely be quite a bit of money. This means HAL, a single entity, is now manufacturing/assembling two similar helicopters that will compete for each other for the exact same position. This does not happen anywhere else in the world, does it? This alone is cause for worry.

Two possibilities in my opinion.

1. Kamov is confident in their product and chose HAL as they were simply the best possible choice for timely and quality delivery, and they are hoping that this will lead them to gaining the +200 orders.

2. Kamov chose HAL in hopes that they will get overwhelmed with current projects, as well as this new added one, and once delays hit LUH, MoD and IAF will favor the 226T as it is simply being assembled by HAL and manufactured in Russia, and then force HAL to focus on LCH and other projects.

Either way we will have to see what happens next, LUH has already been delayed once and a 1.5 year time from first flight to certification seems unbelievably optimistic. The pessimist in me believes the 226T unfortunately will be the future standard for the light utility helicopter class for the Army. Hopefully I am wrong.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Jan 2016 20:48

Cybaru wrote:Not sure what the two engines will bring to LUH other than more complexity. Given that we are using shakti for LUH is excellent for commonality and building operations and spares pipeline that works for both type. I think the LUH is probably in a far advanced state and the configuration is well settled on right now.

Even the KA-226T engines are from Safran. So there will be some commonality. Although, modern aero-engines are very reliable, two engines do offer better survivability. The initial idea was two have two engines for LUH. Turbomeca asked a huge price for the transmission, and that's when they switched to the Ardiden 1U. Surely, LUH is well down the path with 1U, so they must continue. But the twin engine configuration may be considered as an "option".

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 19 Jan 2016 22:08

Maybe HAL was better as it has working relationship with Russia, so easier to deal with them.
For all the extra work, the mandate seems to be that HAL should off load as much work to private sector and keep just the integration work.

later on, HAL should even out source integration work to private company charging a nominal fee.

This way the private industry get hand holding and experience in shorter time.

This will be like creating your own competition, but the market is huge, this should be the national goal.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jan 2016 22:53

Are LUH and Kamov KA 226 helicopter competitors?

I thought the Kamov has a multirole module which is tailored for mountains.
LUH can be used everywhere lese.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Jan 2016 23:51

^^^ Yes, of course. And they will be made and more importantly supported by the same company!!

LUH has a planned service ceiling of >7 km, and a take-off and landing capability at 6 km. Basically, the same as Dhruv with lesser payload. It is designed to eplace the Cheetahs. So high altitude is its playground. Also, its configuration can also be changed quickly between medevac, commuter, utility, cargo, etc. It will also have an armed version with at least a 12.7mm gun and some rocket firing capability, and a naval version with folding rotor blades.

So yes, they are definitely competitors. The Ka-226T is a "comfort" buy. It soothes the Russians and provides a fall back option if the LUH development/testing/production continues to get delayed.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 20 Jan 2016 00:03

^^^^
If the LUH carries over high altitude characteristics from the Dhruv, I guess it will be the Kamov that will end up doing the low end stuff.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 20 Jan 2016 06:36

I think Kamov played its cards beautifully in this case.

In the original competition under the RFP process, the KA226 passed but I don't think it scored above the competitors from Eurocopter etc. They would most likely not have been the preferred vendor. However, they got their foot in through the backdoor through the Govt to Govt route after special request from Putin to modi.

Once in for the first 200 units, they co-opted HAL, the only entity that was standing in their way for the next 200 units, by giving it a piece of the action.

My prediction now is that a maximum lot of 50 LUH will be produced, for 'Siachen Special Service'. The rest 350 will be KA226.

Well played Kamov.

I am not too disappointed though. The Cheetahs and Chetaks need to go, the sooner the better. And 30-50% value add in India is better than zero value add in India.

Now focus on the LCH please, HAL.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 20 Jan 2016 08:09

Kakkaji, you are seriously under estimating the demand for helicopters in India and the need for the machine. Just a look at IAF will tell you that today we have more helicopter units than active fighter sqns. Ten years ago, this was not so. IA and IN have their own on shore requirements which are growing and additionally IN has multiple off shore requirements.

All initial helicopter training for the IAF, IA and IN today is on Chetak / Cheetah and this alone is about 25 -30 machines just for HTS. Other training bases will also convert.

The para military is eager to strengthen its air arm and I see an eager curiosity from BSF, ITBP, etc.

Essentially, a light helicopter, made in India, opens up a huge possibility across the country since I am sure the price will also be good for the Indian market. Kamov has 200 orders confirmed but beyond that it is up to HAL to market and sell LUH.

If HAL moves well, then it can also tap into the civilian market where the line could be bigger.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jan 2016 08:22

how good is the KA226T in the battefield utility role? are we the launch customer on this scale? kamov does make rugged ugly but functional kit as seen in their asw and gunship line...wierd looks but seems to work.