LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

[ramana]

In school in my days we used to have a thing called precis writing in which a long paragraph had to be condensed into a couple of sentences without loss of meaning. These journalists do a course in pureshit writing where they expand three words into a whole page without adding any meaning.

Another product of Wren and Martin grammar book. I still have a copy and précis writing has helped me in my work.

Maitya, Tsarkar points out the outermost wing pylons are designed for 150 kg.

- The R-73 is 105 kg while R 60 is 43kg.

yet the CAG informs that the switch from R-60 to R-73 caused a delay of 16-18 months.

And what if the designed rating was notional for the FSED-1 aka TD models i.e. rated to the R-60 actual weight to keep empty weight down? Hence the wing had to be strengthened?


Also we all are here to learn and be wiser.

So no point in tu-tu mai-mai ing.

Applies to everyone.


Rajat Pandit woke up just now and has a gap filler article on LCA FOC delay. Its a well known fact.

What new info it gives is the MKII CDR is not yet ready. We don't know the schedule so its just information.
Also can some one post the graphic?

Its now labeled as operational necessity by the 'source'.

Most likely this article is pressure on Parrikar to do more on acquiring the Rafales.

[Sid]

Once LCA will enter IAF (12 months from now), there will be a long line of supporters hailing the program and stating their contribution to it.

All we need is a little more patience, and ignore all RajatIPandits. And as dates will get close, so will the intensity and tone of such articles.

Success has many father, failure is an orphen.

[maitya]

Also we all are here to learn and be wiser.

So no point in tu-tu mai-mai ing.

Applies to everyone.

Ok, fair enough ... no more post from me on this R73 vs R-60 scope-creep/weight creep etc.

But if you/tsarkar wishes I'm willing to post the method (from 1st principles, so as layman'ish as possible) I'd used (albeit unsuccessfully) to try and figure out if there's any weight creep etc.

[member_28108]

Hmm.. You obviously did see the photos of the Navy Officer overseeing the Gorshkov refit in the arms of a Natasha. The photos were posted in livefist (Shiv Aroor's blog!)

Yes Vina, I knew that this would the next post on the subject.

In that particular case, in the court of inquiry, it was established that his personal relationship did not affect his professional duties, nor did he make any favours. The gentleman in question was single, and he had a relationship. However, he was dismissed from service because he did not follow service procedures governing such matters.

There are other cases I know that are not in public domain. Many Indian Navy officers & sailors took voluntary retirement to marry their Russian wives. Or for that matter British or German or American wives. Not every relationship is a honey trap. In the days of the British Raj, it was quite common, as General Khanolkar's case, despite the ongoing Great Game between Britain & Russia.

And not every import is influenced by Natasha's. Otherwise, Modi (1135.6) & George Fernandes (Gorshkov), would be the biggest suckers in the honey trap.

he was a very much married man and now you say he was unmarried. The claim was that he did not influence but he was also dismissed .Many things were left unsaid.

[Karan M]

Also we all are here to learn and be wiser.

So no point in tu-tu mai-mai ing.

Applies to everyone.

Ok, fair enough ... no more post from me on this R73 vs R-60 scope-creep/weight creep etc.

But if you/tsarkar wishes I'm willing to post the method (from 1st principles, so as layman'ish as possible) I'd used (albeit unsuccessfully) to try and figure out if there's any weight creep etc.

I admire your patience. There are those who deliberately choose not to see. Your posts are however valuable for those who fall prey to all the deliberate "incorrectness".

[Vivek K]

Speak a lie a thousand times and it shall become the truth.

[ramana]

maitya, Sure post the weight increase possibility due to change in wing pylon load.

At same time estimate it for the design rated load also.

[Rahul M]

calling Savitri Bai Khanolkar natasha is damned insulting to that lady. it's hard to believe you dont know what natasha means.
https://sites.google.com/site/brfdictio ... /n/natasha

@tsarkar

[Vayutuvan]

Rahul M: thanks for the name.

She was born to russian parents but obviously no natasha in the sense of BRF Dictionary. Here is the Wiki page on Savitri[bai] Khanolkar

[Khalsa]

Do you know, that the Param Veer Chakra was designed by a Natasha?

Negative she was no Natasha (russian) but European she was.

However OT I must add

Indian connection
Despite coming (or maybe because of coming) from a European background, Savitri Bai identified so closely with Hindu traditions and ideals, that her integration into Indian society was smooth and effortless. She was a vegetarian, learnt to speak fluent Marathi, Sanskrit and Hindi and learnt Indian music, dance and painting. She always claimed that she had been "born in Europe by mistake" as she was Indian soul, & woe unto him who dared to call her a "foreigner"!

She was so fascinated with Hindu mythology that she read extensively from Hindu scriptures and had a deep knowledge of India's ancient history and legends. It was this knowledge that led Major General Hira Lal Atal, the creator of the Param Vir Chakra, to ask for Savitri Bai's help in designing a medal that would truly symbolize the highest bravery.

Leave our history alone when you are out of ideas to carry the argument further.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitri_Khanolkar

[ramana]

Now that is settled, lets come back to LCA.
no more on that tack.

[Vayutuvan]

In school in my days we used to have a thing called precis writing in which a long paragraph had to be condensed into a couple of sentences without loss of meaning. These journalists do a course in pureshit writing where they expand three words into a whole page without adding any meaning.

Here is a scientist's take on the importance of being concise:
"I have made this letter longer than usual, because I lack the time to make it short" - Blaise Pascal

(Edited out the offending part with apologies to all who got offended - vayu tuvan)

[Hobbes]

In school in my days we used to have a thing called precis writing in which a long paragraph had to be condensed into a couple of sentences without loss of meaning. These journalists do a course in pureshit writing where they expand three words into a whole page without adding any meaning.

Here is a scientist(albeit a christian apologist)'s take on the importance of being concise:
"I have made this letter longer than usual, because I lack the time to make it short" - Blaise Pascal

I do not normally make OT posts, but will make an exception in this case. I see no reason to term an eminent 16th century mathematician a "Christian apologist". The current context certainly does not call for it, and it makes no difference if the writer is a lay Christian, a monk, the Pope or Adi Shankara. Pascal had his beliefs, as you have yours. There is no point to raking them up in a completely unconnected context on an Indian defence forum. And that is my last word on the subject.

[Pratyush]

Self edited

[Khalsa]

Khalsa

you have attributed one post to me. I havenot said so. Please edit that post and I will delete this one.


Regards

apologies Saar.
never did enjoy the embedded quotes

cleaning up now

[deejay]

If an aircraft is currently taking about 03 Hrs for Daily Inspection (D.I.) or Turn Around Servicing (TRS) and this time needs to be brought down to under 01 hr, preferably closer to 45:00 mins, what all can be done?

Is it possible to hook up all systems / platforms which need Inspection under DI or TRS to Built In Tests (B.I.T) which can be hooked up to a computer node for checking?

Can more access panels be made available?

How long or difficult is it to solve the problem of reducing time for D.I.?

Going forward and in to operational service, Tejas will face this challenge and ways have to be found to overcome this.

(P.S. The timing above is indicative of what could be the D.I. time for Tejas now and what will be desired in Op Sqns.)

[ramana]

Deejay, All those LRUs are supposed to cut down TRS time. LCA has demonstrated 3 sorties in a day during exercises.

I do not know the sortie rate for current aircraft in IAF inventory.

Maybe a worthy topic for discussion as we await progress towards FOC?

[deejay]

^^^ Ramana Sir, from what I hear they are targeting a time band of under 01 hr for D.I. My interactions are with a very small sample at middle levels in IAF so this is indicative of the challenges on the road ahead, may not be accurate on the exact challenges.

I was told that D.I. time for other aircraft (D.I. only) is generally around 40 mins to 01 hr bracket.

[Vayutuvan]

The current context certainly does not call for it, and it makes no difference if the writer is x. Pascal had his beliefs, as you have yours. There is no point to raking them up in a completely unconnected context on an Indian defence forum.

Point well taken. I will edit my post.

[Khalsa]

Bump.... pushing it back up.
I can't bear to see the beloved Tejas thread on page 2

[Gyan]

Apart from FOC, where is SP-2 of LCA?

[enaiel]

What is the point building SP-2? What is IAF doing with SP-1 or LSP-1 to LSP-7? Nothing. IAF doesn't plan to touch LCA until FOC is reached and all aircraft are upgraded to FOC standards. Might as well concentrate all efforts on achieving FOC rather than building any more LSP or SP aircraft.

[ramana]

^^^^ Building aircraft allows you to iron out mfg bugs. So HAL should work on SP-2 etc. while ADA concentrates on FOC.

[deejay]

What is the point building SP-2? What is IAF doing with SP-1 or LSP-1 to LSP-7? Nothing. IAF doesn't plan to touch LCA until FOC is reached and all aircraft are upgraded to FOC standards. Might as well concentrate all efforts on achieving FOC rather than building any more LSP or SP aircraft.

Did not understand "What is IAF doing with SP-1 or LSP-1 to LSP-7"? What is it that they are supposed to do with it that you think they should? Also, would love some information if you have with sources that IAF is doing / not doing with SP 1 and why?

Do you want IAF to start operational role clearance or Air Show kind of thing with SP 1? I am not sure LSP's are IAF's to use. SP 1 was the first and only one handed over to IAF as far as I know, but I could be wrong.

[enaiel]

http://www.oneindia.com/india/we-have-n ... 59076.html

"The first two series production aircraft (SP-1 and SP-2) have some slight variations and from SP-3 onwards we will have them entering into the Squadron. The first squadron will consist of aircraft from SP-3 to SP-6," the Air Chief said.

http://www.oneindia.com/india/aero-indi ... 61826.html

"We are sure that from SP-4 onwards (likely to be rolled out by HAL during the end of 2015), IAF will start getting the Tejas that matches all FOC requirements. Hence, the IAF will be ready with 36 FOC Tejas aircraft, instead of 20 as per the order," Subramaniam said.

[deejay]

http://www.oneindia.com/india/we-have-n ... 59076.html

"The first two series production aircraft (SP-1 and SP-2) have some slight variations and from SP-3 onwards we will have them entering into the Squadron. The first squadron will consist of aircraft from SP-3 to SP-6," the Air Chief said.

Ah,Yes, I've read this but what makes you believe IAF is not using the SP 1. Please check again. I searched but SP 1 details of usage and found the LCA wikipedia entry saying this in the Operational history segment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

The work to raise the first squadron started in July 2011. The Tejas will be inducted into the 45th squadron, the Flying Daggers and will be based in Bengaluru before being moved to Sulur Air Force Station. The squadron will initially consist of four aircraft SP-3 to SP-6. The IAF's Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment will receive four aircraft already built, the SP-1 and 2 and LSP-7 and 8.


In May 2015, the Mark I aircraft was criticized by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) for not meeting IAF requirements, such as a lack of a two-seat trainer, electronic warfare capabilities, the Radar Warning Receiver/Counter Measure Dispensing System, weight increases, reduced internal fuel capacity, non-compliance of fuel system protection, forward-facing pilot protection, and reduced speed. Most of these are expected to be rectified in the future Mark II version.

From your news link, what the Air Chief has said seems to be how the Manufacturer and User have agreed to use production aircraft. Some manuals are being awaited and presently no aircraft has been moved to Sulur (base of the first Sqn). AFAIK, adequate pilots and ground crew are at Bangalore for sometime awaiting aircraft to start Sqn flying in Bangalore itself. My info is not from any media source and is AI '15 vintage.

So LSP 7- 8 ans SP 1 and SP 2 are hopefully seeing operational usage at ASTE if they have all been handed over. Not sure all are with ASTE now. Certainly not SP 2.

http://www.oneindia.com/india/aero-indi ... 61826.html

"We are sure that from SP-4 onwards (likely to be rolled out by HAL during the end of 2015), IAF will start getting the Tejas that matches all FOC requirements. Hence, the IAF will be ready with 36 FOC Tejas aircraft, instead of 20 as per the order," Subramaniam said.

This news was discussed twice before and it remains a proposal from HAL side. What is important (IMO) is to take each production milestone as an achievement. The production line is in its 'teething' stage. I am sure there are issues. SP 2 may try to address issues of time for DI to some extent and going forward SP 3 and SP 4 will be even better.

The logic that IAF is not using SP 1 so delays in SP 2 are not important does not agree with me even if the claim on SP 1 is correct. Tejas programme needs to succeed and as of now its friends are ADA and HAL. IAF seems to be outside the friend circle. At least the friends need to deliver on timelines or at least as close to it as possible.

Production of SP 1 it seems happened in a shorter time frame than SP 2. SP 2 was initially slotted for last year some time and then moved to Apr 15 and then it seems to have been further delayed.

Edited for Quotes and error in mentioning LSP 7-8

[schinnas]

An anecdote I heard from a friend who worked (probably as a consultant I dont remember) at ADA as a programmer some 15 years ago developing some software (fly by wire?) for LCA. Kalamji was probably the scientific advisor to defense minister them. He visited them to get updated on the progress. One team member told him proudly that they were working 12 hours a day. Kalamji in a very gentle and friendly manner indicated that when they are behind the timeline, they needed to do even more to pull in the completion date. My friend was so inspired to work nights and weekends on the project after that.

#RIPKalam. Once in a generation such leaders come who can inspire everyone around by their mere presence or a glance or a word. Kalam was one such great leader. I hope HAL and IAF pull up their socks and complete LCA and LCA Mk 2 as early as possible as a tribute to Dr. Kalam.

[SaiK]

ideal tribute would be to invest $5b into Kaveri-2 120kN.. all home grown.. rightly monitored and timely delivered. this includes the test facilities.

[Yagnasri]

Too much to expect. Even under NM.

[NRao]

ideal tribute would be to invest $5b into Kaveri-2 120kN.. all home grown.. rightly monitored and timely delivered. this includes the test facilities.

Remove the timeline rec and it is doable.

India - IMHO of course - just does not have enough research data to make up for "time". The nation has to plod through that hip deep muck. I just do not see options. Even if the Russians/US/France provides some techs, it means that that particular issue is solved or known. The rest of the problems still remain.

You want a leading edge engine (LEE), then slog - which beyond funding.

[enaiel]

I am happy that SP-1 SP-2 LSP-7 and LSP-8 are at least going to be used by ASTE, even if they are not going to be inducted by IAF. I did not know that, and don't remember seeing any news item mentioning it. Would love to see some pics of SP-1 or LSP-7 in ASTE service.

I still think that for getting IAF finally committed to Tejas, and that is important for the future of Tejas and what it stands for (indigenous capability vs foreign imports), FOC is more important that SP-2.

Ah,Yes, I've read this but what makes you believe IAF is not using the SP 1. Please check again. I searched but SP 1 details of usage and found the LCA wikipedia entry saying this in the Operational history segment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

The work to raise the first squadron started in July 2011. The Tejas will be inducted into the 45th squadron, the Flying Daggers and will be based in Bengaluru before being moved to Sulur Air Force Station. The squadron will initially consist of four aircraft SP-3 to SP-6. The IAF's Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment will receive four aircraft already built, the SP-1 and 2 and LSP-7 and 8.

[SaiK]

we have to monitor the slog.. data collected and analyzed by expert team.. these days, having big-data matured, this should be easy. we have big number crunchers, solvers and modelers too, aided by parallel computing power. china has gone way into the future.. and their failure on the engine may not be the same, as they are generally 'copied first principle' driven. exclude them in analysis.

not only we can do it, we can master it! revolutionize it! if we can't do it, then we don't deserve such eminent people like kalam ji.

[deejay]

I am happy that SP-1 SP-2 LSP-7 and LSP-8 are at least going to be used by ASTE, even if they are not going to be inducted by IAF. I did not know that, and don't remember seeing any news item mentioning it. Would love to see some pics of SP-1 or LSP-7 in ASTE service.

Minor nitpick - ASTE is IAF, hence they have been inducted in IAF save SP 2 which is yet to be delivered as far as I am aware. Purely based on verbal information. ASTE aircraft look no different from HAL aircraft so unless some 'spotter' makes out diffs between ASTE machines and HAL machines, takes photo and shares it we will not know.

I have been watching flying from HAL airport keenly for last 02 months and I can't make out which is HAL Tejas and which is ASTE Tejas as long as they are in the Airforce 'grey' scheme. Just today I saw a Tejas on taxi trials with a slightly off colour (greenish) radome. Can't say for sure whose Tejas it was. All I know is that it was "ours".

[symontk]

Is that the one which landed around 3PM?

[deejay]

Is that the one which landed around 3PM?

Could have been. They look alike.

[member_28482]

Is there any Update on LCA SP2 to SP20 production status, Since Jan no update on production.

As we know it is with the same configuration as SP1, then why so much delay.............Till this time we must have 4 SP's flying.

[srai]

^^^

SP-1 and SP-2 had been under partial (concurrent) build since around 2010. They were used for building up the production assembly infrastructure. It was only after Dec 2013 (i.e. IOC-2) that SP-1/2 could be finally completed. SP-1 and 2 were reworked and rebuilt to bring them close to IOC-2 standards. However, there are still differences in the build since not all parts that were done prior to the final standards were rebuilt. SP-3 onwards will adhere to the full IOC-2 specs. Globally, it takes around 36-months from confirmed order date (Dec-2013) to begin deliveries, which would put it sometime in 2016.

[member_28482]

^^^

SP-1 and SP-2 had been under partial (concurrent) build since around 2010. They were used for building up the production assembly infrastructure. It was only after Dec 2013 (i.e. IOC-2) that SP-1/2 could be finally completed. SP-1 and 2 were reworked and rebuilt to bring them close to IOC-2 standards. However, there are still differences in the build since not all parts that were done prior to the final standards were rebuilt. SP-3 onwards will adhere to the full IOC-2 specs. Globally, it takes around 36-months from confirmed order date (Dec-2013) to begin deliveries, which would put it sometime in 2016.

Thanks for the Information,

If that was the case, why did HAL and DRDO Committing false delivery schedule.

[JayS]

I have been watching flying from HAL airport keenly for last 02 months....

deejay saar..one aam abdul puchh..OT here but was being curious so asking. I am seeing some jets flying from HAL strip but can't identify them. Looks like Jet Trainers to my un-trained eyes ( ). Can you tell me which one are they? IJT or AJT?? I thought I saw Jaguar as well a couple of times.

[srai]

^^^

SP-1 and SP-2 had been under partial (concurrent) build since around 2010. They were used for building up the production assembly infrastructure. It was only after Dec 2013 (i.e. IOC-2) that SP-1/2 could be finally completed. SP-1 and 2 were reworked and rebuilt to bring them close to IOC-2 standards. However, there are still differences in the build since not all parts that were done prior to the final standards were rebuilt. SP-3 onwards will adhere to the full IOC-2 specs. Globally, it takes around 36-months from confirmed order date (Dec-2013) to begin deliveries, which would put it sometime in 2016.

Thanks for the Information,

If that was the case, why did HAL and DRDO Committing false delivery schedule.

Inexperience along with poor project management, communication and other internal/external delivery pressures.