Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Apr 2016 21:36

^ There needs to be policy shift for them to consider an SSN. If it had a chance of actually happening the Virginia Class long-lease or procurement would be a viable choice, especially given how affordable it has now become given the capability and the large multi-year contracts (FY17 cost is less than $2.6 Billion per submarine). There will be 2 production slots up for grabs in the early 2020's while the USN acquires one Virginia a year (as opposed to 2 a year normally) on years that they also pay the majority cost for the new SSBN.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Apr 2016 22:07

Just a nice video of IN Kilo going through upgrade and trials

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 13 Apr 2016 22:18

Singha wrote:how are the content of the IN meals? three meals a day? tea/coffee on demand?
is non veg food prepared in same kitchen as veg?

I have heard here IN eats the best of the three services.

Unfortunately yes, the nau sena gets the best food. And they know it - rub it in when army visits them. Snooty chaps sometimes (in a friendly way). They have cook os or cook officers who are trained at INS Hamla. These guys are really good cooks. Nau Sena dinner nights are more often and more stylish than the fauj. Also you get good duty free stuff on Nau Sena vessels.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 13 Apr 2016 22:24

Singha wrote:how are the content of the IN meals? three meals a day? tea/coffee on demand? is non veg food prepared in same kitchen as veg? I have heard here IN eats the best of the three services.

The quality would make Michelin starred chefs envious. Cooks are fighting men too, so during high tempo ops, one gets khichidi &/ tinned food. Its fun eating in rough seas with the pitch, yaw & roll.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 13 Apr 2016 22:34

Aditya G wrote:thank you tsarkarji.

Last year when we lost one TRV, the prototype Varunastra torp was also lost. It was later recovered with help from by a NIOT ship which had ROVs. Then later on a Reliance ship helped us to locate the ICG Dornier wreckage. From this I deduce a shortage of ROVs, or at least a shortage of survey ships. Not surprising as Alcock never delivered 5/6 of Makars.

On an unrelated note, who makes the diving bells deployed from INS Neereekshak?

There are many classes of ROVs. The HUGIN ones are used for survey and reconnaissance. These don't operate on the seabed.

Generally IN does not do anything on the seabed, and does not have any seabed salvage capability. The Reliance one has robotic arms to inspect their undersea offshore installations at seabed and depth too deep for divers. NIOT also does seabed R&D

For raising ICGS Vivek, INS Vindhyagiri and the submarine from the seabed, we had to hire specialized salvage agencies.

Even with DSRV purchase, the focus is on rescue and not salvage.

wig · Post by **wig** » 15 Apr 2016 09:06

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/commen ... 22434.html

At sea with ageing fleet, cost & time overruns

The Indian Navy, considered a vital instrument of diplomacy, power projection and essential for safeguarding the country's manifold maritime interests, is suffering from serious time and cost overruns. The country can ill afford these deficiencies, especially with China’s increased presence in the Indian Ocean.
ON April 11, Ashton Carter became the first US Secretary of Defence to visit an aircraft carrier belonging to the Indian Navy when he was taken on board the 44,400-tonne Soviet-origin INS Vikramaditya. While New Delhi's intention was to showcase the Navy's currently largest and most powerful vessel, mandarins in South Block cannot be unaware of the serious deficiencies that afflict the Indian Navy, considered a vital instrument of diplomacy, power projection and credible second-strike capability in the event of a nuclear war.
In many ways INS Vikramaditya's pre-induction history and current status serves as a microcosm to what ails the Navy. Firstly, like the Army and the Air Force, the Navy is similarly largely import-dependent for all its submarines and fighter and maritime reconnaissance aircraft, most helicopters, a few ships and for many sub systems, including missiles.
The Navy continues to suffer delays in most inductions while remaining dependent on foreign vendors for requirements ranging from spares, servicing and mid life upgrades, to name a few. Inefficient ship-building yards and manpower-related problems have added to the woes.
In the case of INS Vikramaditya, a helpless New Delhi was forced by Moscow to renegotiate the contract to a significantly higher $2.3 billion. The purchase of 45 Russian-made MiG-29K fighters for the aircraft carrier cost another $2 billion. Secondly, considerable cost and time overruns in almost all production and developmental projects continue to be a cause of serious concern. INS Vikramaditya entered service in June 2014, almost 10-and-a-half years after the purchase contract was signed. Resultantly, the MiG-29Ks, first inducted four years prior in February 2010, had begun depreciating well before they could be operationalised.
Further, just as the Navy functioned with a solitary aircraft carrier (INS Viraat) for 19 years — from 1995 to 2014 — it is again back to being a one-carrier Navy, with the 56-year-old INS Viraat now practically retired.
A second aircraft carrier, currently under indigenous development (INS Vikrant), is already running six years behind schedule and is at least another three years from entering service. Meantime, its cost has risen six-fold — from Rs 3,261 crore to Rs 19,341 crore.
The three Kolkata-class stealth guided missile Destroyers, originally due for commissioning in 2009 and 2010, were inducted after a five to seven years’ delay in 2014, 2015 and 2016 — at an over three-fold cost increase from Rs 3,580 crore to Rs 11,662 crore. Two of the four Kamorta-class anti-submarine warfare corvettes, originally scheduled for delivery in 2009, 2011 and 2012, were only delivered in 2014 and 2016 — with two more still awaited. The cost, meanwhile, has more than doubled from Rs 3,051 crore to Rs 7,852 crore. Also running behind schedule is the construction of five offshore patrol vessels, 80 interceptor craft and four attack crafts.
The worst is the submarine fleet, considered critical to complete the nuclear triad and to accompany the Navy's aircraft carriers among other tasks. The Navy's conventional submarines, which regularly require breaking surface to charge its batteries thus rendering it vulnerable to detection each time, is down to just 13, with 12 of them between 22 and 30 years old.
Even the solitary youngest submarine is already 16 years old. The Navy has not inducted a single submarine since 2000, even though the government in 1999 cleared a 30-year plan to induct 24 submarines by 2030.
The Navy will get its first conventional submarine (French-origin Scorpene) only in 2017, with five more by 2021 with no further induction decided and, therefore, 18 short of the original plan. India's indigenously developed nuclear-powered submarine, INS Arihant, is undergoing sea trials since December 2014. Two more are currently under construction, while six more have been cleared for construction for which, however, no deadline has been fixed. China, in contrast, operates about 60 submarines, nine of them nuclear-powered.
The Navy has a shortfall of 61 integral helicopters on its ships; has no deep submergence rescue vehicles for rescuing sailors from submarines; and is dependent on the US in case a submarine is disabled deep under water.
Most existing vessels are ageing and would necessitate decommissioning in the next 10 years. The current six mine sweepers, for example, are over 25 years old. Besides, it has suffered an unprecedented frequency of accidents and deaths a staggering 59 accidents between June 2007 and November 2014, 14 of which occurred in 2014 alone and 24 between 2012 and 2014.
The most serious was the sinking of INS Sindhurakshak, a Russian-made kilo class submarine, following a series of blasts in the torpedo section in August 2013. The shortage of officers and sailors is, respectively, almost 1,600 (14.5 per cent) and 1,11,000 (17 per cent).
The Navy is finding it hard to maintain a force level of 138 ships and submarines approved by the government 52 years ago in 1964, let alone increase levels to 198 ships and submarines approved by the defence acquisition council in 2012.
All this is hardly comforting for a 21st- century Navy, with a maritime responsibility that includes safeguarding a 7,517- km coastline, island territories across two seas at considerable distances from the mainland and a 2 million sq km exclusive economic zone; maintaining sea lanes of communication to ensure safe passage of ocean trade which constitutes 95 per cent by volume and 77 per cent by value.
In addition to these maritime responsibilities, the Navy also has to conduct anti-piracy and anti-terrorist operations and a wide range of maritime emergencies. Of course, it also has to counter the increased Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean region.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 15 Apr 2016 09:08

since when has navy had 1,11,000 sailers?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Apr 2016 20:24

Singha check this advanced conventional from DCNS Shortfin Barracuda , Its got pump jet propulsion and looks like Baracudda SSN but in smaller conventional version

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Apr 2016 23:13

Doesn't pump jet propulsion more energy than the propeller?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Apr 2016 05:11

Yes around 15% thats why no ssk has it.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 18 Apr 2016 13:28

http://swarajyamag.com/world/to-secure- ... ds-the-sea

On the need to greater Naval power etc.

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Apr 2016 14:34

Yagnasri wrote:http://swarajyamag.com/world/to-secure- ... ds-the-sea

On the need to greater Naval power etc.

Increased IN maritime policing in the IOR would require plenty of cheap long-range and lightly armed ships like the NOPV Saryu class. Keep the same armament with 76-mm main gun for surface/air and 30-mm CIWS for close air/surface defense along with countermeasure systems like Mareech and Kavach; probably add a RBU-6000 unit for underwater attack/defense capability. Also, some extra space for keeping captured pirates or sea-rescued people or special operations teams. These should be enough for almost all types of regular policing duties. Probably a good number would be 24 units total (up from 9 on order) to allow the IN to keep a constant presence in most parts of the hot-zones of the IOR. That would free up all capital and other specialized ships from those types of duties.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Apr 2016 18:31

The RuN has shown with its missile attacks from the Caspian Sea using small corvettes with small crews due to automation,of around 1000t, how cost-effective its thinking and designs are. Adding on a helo deck,hangar and TAS belowt/ hangar topside would give us an excellent multi-role corvette of under 2000t that can handle smaller peacetime patrolling and tasks as well as being very effective in wartime.
If 3 CBGs are planned around the Vik-A,Vikrant and the future CV,then the major surface combatants will be required in strength to support the CV,as well as smallersquadrons operating independently on their own.

A large US style CV is in the IN's context a massively expensive dinosaur,esp as UCAV dev. is growing apace even in the USN. In the future,a mix of UCAVs and manned naval strike fighters will see carrier sizes reduce to an extent. What we need are as many "unsinkable carriers" ,island naval airbases from where both carrier as well as land based/supported aircraft can operate from.The Chinese are doing just that in their swift capture of the tiny atolls in the Indo-China Sea,enlarging their footprint with reclamation so that runways large enough to operate sev. kinds of aircraft are possible. EMALS demands huge power requirements,an N-plant,both of which will cost a few billion more,unaffordable in the IN's context and which would also sink the IN's sub fleet requirements. One would advise strict caution on the large CV and instead build the amphibs being planned to Vikrant flat top std enabling them to be also used for existing carrier aircraft like the 29K and NLCA to come.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 19 Apr 2016 20:54

Why would you need anything bigger than 1000 Tonnes to launch missiles from a 500km x 1000km lake? When you are never more than a couple of hundred kms, or five hours away from replenishment? Going by that logic, because the K4 can be launched from a pontoon, 'why do we need an SSBN'?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 19 Apr 2016 21:11

May be a couple of dozen Saryu or Kuriki type ships will be required for police work etc. But we need more that that if we need to effectively counter China. I fear numbers may become critical when it comes to China. Mass produced ( and cheap) frigate/destroyer with universal launchers to give versatility may be required.

Why not go for a long range bomber or missile carrier like Russians do. With few of them any ship without air cover will be under serious threat.

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 19 Apr 2016 21:27

http://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/in ... 53625.html

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 20 Apr 2016 00:06

srai wrote:..... countermeasure systems like Mareech and Kavach; probably add a RBU-6000 unit for underwater attack/defense capability...

Saryu and Pipavav NOPVs have all of the capabilities you mentioned except for above.

Now RBU-6000 is a good system, but the problem is you need to couple it with a SONAR and its attendant equipment, operator consoles, Int combat system etc ... I am guessing Mareech will also be plugged into this complex. Bang its no longer a simple cheap OPV but a rather poor corvette.

World over navies have found small, cheap solutions for surface warfare, but cant say that about ASW:

The best bet we have is to get a top class NMRH where you will get the full ASW out-of-the-box.

Bangladesh Navy has procured so called Large Patrol Craft (LPC) which has a full suite including missiles and ASW rockets, but I doubt the efficacy of the system as a whole.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Apr 2016 03:42

This from the Indian Maritime Security Strategy Document, from Jan, 2016 (Taja khabar):

Primary Areas India’s primary areas of maritime interest include the following:-
• India’s coastal areas and maritime zones, including coastline, islands, internal sea waters, territorial waters, contiguous zone, EEZ and continental shelf.
• The Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal, Andaman Sea, and their littoral regions.
• The Persian Gulf and its littoral, which is the source of majority of our oil supplies and gas imports, and is home to more than seven million expatriate Indians.
• The Gulf of Oman, Gulf of Aden, Red Sea, and their littoral regions.
• South-West Indian Ocean, including IOR island nations therein and East Coast of Africa littoral regions.
• The choke points leading to, from and across the Indian Ocean, including the Six-degree Channel; Eight/ Nine-degree Channels; Straits of Hormuz, Bab-el-Mandeb, Malacca, Singapore, Sunda and Lombok; the Mozambique Channel, and Cape of Good Hope and their littoral regions.
• Other areas encompassing our SLOCs, and vital energy and resource interests.

No surprises there, as thought, as planned.

But:

Secondary Areas India’s secondary areas of maritime interest include the following:-
• South-East Indian Ocean, including sea routes to the Pacific Ocean and littoral regions in vicinity.
• South and East China Seas, Western Pacific Ocean, and their littoral regions.
• Southern Indian Ocean Region, including Antarctica.
• Mediterranean Sea, West Coast of Africa, and their littoral regions. {That folks is Atlantic Ocean for all practical purposes}
• Other areas of national interest based on considerations of Indian diaspora, overseas investments and political relations.

On SLOC:

In the case of India, there has been increasing dependence on sea routes for import and export of essential cargo, including crude and refined energy products, trade and other commodities, and for support to Indian interests overseas. India’s interests and linkages have also expanded over the years, from the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal, to the IOR, thence across the Indo-Pacific Region, and now also into the Atlantic Ocean. The ISLs to these areas have, accordingly, grown in importance for India, with sea routes through the Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal, South-East and South-West Indian Ocean, and the Indo-Pacific region contributing to India’s SLOCs

There are two observations I would like to make:

1) IOR is THE focus. But the CSC, etc are not a blur. They are coming into focus pretty fast - fast enough for the IN to start considering alternatives. Indian economic interests should never out pace the security layer (with exceptions) by too much. Therefore this is the time to plan it out. Ships designed and built now will impact the near term future - 20-30 year time frame
2) NONE of this has to do with ANY other nation. So, "agreements" will be used in those cases where there is an overlapping interest between one or more nations. As an example I cannot see India siding with US + Philippines in a conflict with China. Nonetheless, "agreements" need to be in place to support the IN.

My point being that in 20 years or so India will have to go global - no option. And, she is not going where she does not need to go. Or in support of anyone she does not need to support.

More latter.

Meanwhile I would like comments specifically on "secondary areas of maritime interest ". We have enough info on IN and IOR, no need to rehash it.

Oh, BTW, the current distribution of Bhai Log that will attract attention (from the Maritime doc):

Primary and secondary areas of interest in pictorial form:

Check out the Secondary Area of Interest!!!! It actually reaches Alaska, US of A!!!

Chock points AND ISLs.

Note, with care, the ISL for Indo-Pacific region. It INCLUDES SCS, ECS and Philippines Sea.

Source:
Ensuring Secure Seas:
Indian Maritime Security Strategy
Published, Jan, 2016

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 20 Apr 2016 08:24

Need a minimum of 4 carrier groups and another 4-5 LHD's for that.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Apr 2016 10:02

NR ,you've forgotten vital Mauritius in the map.It is on the route to S.Africa and the Cape, south of DG and where the PRC have been trying to make its presence felt.We already have a def. agreement with Mau,a def adviser to their PM and some reports have it that Agalega island's infrastructure will be upgraded with a proper airfield where LRMP aircraft can operate from. Reunion belongs to the French,close to Mau. Rodrigues island also belongs to Mau.So also a vital spot is the Syechelles,closer to DG and Djibouti where the Chinese have set up shop. The IOR certainly is primary focus,but if we leverage our goodwill with Vietnam,we could have a strat. outpost there for the IN,etc,which will be our "Gwadar" in the Indo-China Sea. For the outer IOR ops,the fleet of N-attack subs is absolutely essential.Within the IOR we could operate our diesel/AIP boats without much problems,but at longer ranges,endurance on station,there's nothing that will compete with an N-boat.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Apr 2016 12:17

PS:First export of BMos to be announced later this year.Any bets on which country? I pick Vietnam.Second bet Malaysia.

First Export Contract for BrahMos Cruise Missiles to Be Signed in 2016
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
09:33 20.04.2016
An Asian-Pacific country will sign a contract on the delivery of Russian-Indian BrahMos cruise missiles by the end of 2016.

KUALA LUMPUR (Sputnik) – The first export contract on delivering Russian-Indian BrahMos cruise missiles to a country in the Asian-Pacific Region will be signed by the end of 2016, BrahMos Aerospace spokesman Praveen Pathak said Wednesday.

“It’s too early to be specific since negotiations are continuing, but we plan that by the end this year there will be one solid contract,” Pathak told RIA Novosti in an interview.

He added that the Asian-Pacific nation would be a friendly nation that neither Russia nor India has any conflicts with.

First Trials of BrahMos Cruise Missiles on Su-30 Jets to Begin in 1-2 Months
A supersonic BrahMos cruise missile will be tested from a Su-30MKI fighter jet for the first time in September 2016.
GURINDER OSAN, FILE
Russian-Indian BrahMos Missile to Be Test-Fired From Su-30MKI in September
The first trials of the Russian-Indian BrahMos cruise missiles on Russian Su-30 Flanker C multirole fighter jets will begin in one or two months and end in November-December 2016, Praveen Pathak said.
"Ground tests of the aircraft missile have ended, now we're planning to place it on an Su-30 and in the next month or two there will be trial launches," Pathak told RIA Novosti.

He said that a life-sized rocket mock-up would be initially used in the tests, and then proceed with an actual BrahMos cruise missile.

“We hope that all of the tests will be complete in November-December,” Pathak added.
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/2016042 ... z46LpUIeda

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 20 Apr 2016 12:25

Cylinder blast on Naval ship INS Nireekshak, 3 sailors injured. Two of the sailors were treated for splinter injuries, but one was not so lucky, as his right leg had to be amputated above the knee.

If this accident happened on 16th April, why is it trending today on twitter !!

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/thre ... 46846.html

Two sailors sustained injuries while another lost his leg after an oxygen cylinder exploded on board Indian naval diving support ship INS Nireekshak. The explosion took place on April 16 while a diving bailout bottle, a small 12-inch oxygen bottle which is carried by divers in their diving helmet, was being charged, a Navy official said. The ship, which was 40 nautical miles off the coast of Vizhinjam, returned to port around midnight and all the three sailors were shifted to Military Hospital, Trivandrum. The ship was on it way to Mumbai from Visakhapatnam.
Two of the sailors were treated for splinter injuries, but one was not so lucky, as his right leg had to be amputated above the knee. The sailors are said to be in a stable condition and have now been shifted to Mumbai.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 20 Apr 2016 16:58

NRao wrote:This from the Indian Maritime Security Strategy Document, from Jan, 2016 (Taja khabar):

.......
.......

Chock points AND ISLs.

Note, with care, the ISL for Indo-Pacific region. It INCLUDES SCS, ECS and Philippines Sea.

Source:
Ensuring Secure Seas:
Indian Maritime Security Strategy
Published, Jan, 2016

Thank you Mr Rao for the map. This map clearly shows why blockading of Mallaca Straits will not be sufficient in case of a conflict with PRC. We will need to blockade the following straits too
1) Sunda
2) Lombok
3) Ombaj and Wetar Straits.

Indonesians are going to be mightily pissed in case of the first two if we decide to blockade them. And in the case of 3rd strait, Indonesia along Australian and NZ are going to be mightily pissed off. So if we do blockade these straits in case of war with PRC, we can expect hostility if not outright conflict with two other countries atleast. Now in case of modern shipping, it is not that the ships are laden with a single port in mind say a port in PRC. Rather sometimes ships make port halts at other places too and deliver many containers at different ports.
So let us assume that we blockade all the 4 straits, to the hell with what Australia and Indonesia say, to be truly effective we will have to blockade all the shipping traffic flowing through these straits. And imagine if we stop a ship which has Cargo for say Singapore and Hongkong going on, then we will impact Singapore too. In other words in modern shipping whether it is containerized cargo or bulk resources cargo it is very very difficult to separate cargo meant for one country. Further let us assume that we sink all the PRC registered shipping flowing through these straits, that on its own will not stop the flow of ships to PRC. PRC will shift its ships to Pacific to make sure that its most important trade to the North Atlantic region is not impacted. Also it is possible for PRC to now ship goods via rail in shorter time across the Eurasian landmass.

Now consider Indian shipping. About 20-30% of our hydro carbons flow from SCS, Yellow sea and reach us. Our trade with East asia also goes via these areas. If we are blockading or sinking PRC's shipping than PLAN, PLAAF will do the same for our shipping too.

So if we wish to blockade PRC and destroy it economically then IN and IAF will have to go SCS, Yellow Sea and East Sea and block the domestic shipping which PRC uses as well as prevent other ships from entering the ports of PRC. In this way we do not destroy shipping or containers meant for other countries and more importantly we do not unnecessarily antagonize other countries. And that is one of the key step in winning, making as fewer enemies as possible.

Food for thought nah??

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Apr 2016 17:17

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Singha wrote:how are the content of the IN meals? three meals a day? tea/coffee on demand?
is non veg food prepared in same kitchen as veg?

I have heard here IN eats the best of the three services.
Unfortunately yes, the nau sena gets the best food. And they know it - rub it in when army visits them. Snooty chaps sometimes (in a friendly way). They have cook os or cook officers who are trained at INS Hamla. These guys are really good cooks. Nau Sena dinner nights are more often and more stylish than the fauj. Also you get good duty free stuff on Nau Sena vessels.

The cooks are as good or as bad as the professional interest taken by the Mess secretary. The menu, if made challenging enough, the cooks will gladly deliver quality food every time.

Alas, regarding the duty free stuff, they now charge an arm and a leg.

The cooks, when they leave service, find easy placement in 5* places. Every 5* place in the country would willingly accept to train your naval cooks for free and for days on end to expose them to new cuisine and techniques and this used to be done regularly and all it took was a mere verbal request to the F&B manager.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Apr 2016 17:17

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Singha wrote:how are the content of the IN meals? three meals a day? tea/coffee on demand?
is non veg food prepared in same kitchen as veg?

I have heard here IN eats the best of the three services.
Unfortunately yes, the nau sena gets the best food. And they know it - rub it in when army visits them. Snooty chaps sometimes (in a friendly way). They have cook os or cook officers who are trained at INS Hamla. These guys are really good cooks. Nau Sena dinner nights are more often and more stylish than the fauj. Also you get good duty free stuff on Nau Sena vessels.

The cooks are as good or as bad as the professional interest taken by the Mess secretary. The menu, if made challenging enough, the cooks will gladly deliver quality food every time. If the Mess sec is lazy, the cooks also become lazy.

Alas, regarding the duty free stuff, they now charge an arm and a leg.

The cooks, when they leave service, find easy placement in 5* places. Every 5* place in the country would willingly accept to train your naval cooks for free and for days on end to expose them to new cuisine and techniques and this used to be done regularly and all it took was a mere verbal request to the F&B manager.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 20 Apr 2016 17:45

Navy to grant permanent commission to women.

The Indian Navy on Wednesday announced that women completing seven years in the service will get permanent commission.
Three women officers had moved the Supreme Court seeking reinstatement in the Navy. They have now been called for their medical tests for the permanent commission.

Navy is the last of the three armed forces in the country to allow permanent commission to women.

While the Army and Air Force allow permanent commission for women, the Navy had limited women officers only to short service commission of 14 years.Women naval officers were not eligible for pension as it required 20 years of service.

The Indian Navy had moved the Supreme Court in October 2015 challenging an order of the Delhi high court asking it to grant permanent commission to 17 women officers who retired after their short service commission ended in 2006.

A total of 17 short service commission women officers had moved various writ petitions seeking permanent commissions. The verdict on the remaining petitions is also expected soon.

In November last year, the apex court had barred the Navy from releasing 17 women officers, who had challenged the government’s decision to extend permanent commission to women officers in education, law and naval architecture to those who joined after September 2008.

Last year, the Indian Air Force announced induction of women in fighter stream, the first of the three forces to allow women in combat role.

The decision, however, is on “experimental basis” for five years.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2016 20:00

Saw an episode of discovery mighty ships..a danish ddg of nansen class. A board of examiners comes onboard to test the crew.

In parallel they simulate hostile sub, 4 missile firing facs, banshee drones from land simulating fighters, and then shrapnel damage to ship, multiple fires with many injured, sonar power failure, rudder motor failure and even the asw heli crashing on the rear deck with a open fire and many wounded, outage of screens in the cic..pure sadist examiners lol

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Apr 2016 09:19

Southern IOR approaches in the east will be sanitised by the OZ navy,why they're going for 12 conventional super-subs,decision likely within the month.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Apr 2016 08:36

Raytheon-BEL Partnership Casts Shadow on India's NCO Program

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /83272094/

NEW DELHI — Despite the Indian Navy's serious reservations, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has quietly permitted state-owned Bharat Electronics Limited to team up with Raytheon of the United States to complete the much-delayed network-centric operation project.Bharat Electronics (BEL) was nominated by the MoD last year for the second time to build the network-centric operation (NCO) system at a cost of $100 million, and it is scheduled to be ready by early next year.The system will link crucial assets including shore-based radar networks, aircraft and Indian Navy warships.The Indian Navy has repeatedly told MoD that it is not in the national interest to acquire hardware and encryption software for the NCO project from a partnership with a foreign company."It is not feasible for any sovereign nation to weaken its operational doctrines and operational orders that would flow on" NCO networks developed with a foreign company, said a senior Indian Navy official, who spoke on condition of anonymity."However, the government has taken a complete U-turn and ignored our demand that NCO hardware should be fully developed by an Indian company and encryption software by the Indian Navy itself," the official added.The NCO project can succeed only if BEL uses sufficient domestic content for the hardware and develops the software completely in India, either in-house or by teaming up with Indian companies, said another Navy official said, adding that Raytheon will have to obtain International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) clearance."Even if BEL can make a successful NCO system with Raytheon, the bigger question is upgrades — after five years the hardware will become obsolete and software upgrades will require hardware upgrades," a defense analyst said, who spoke on condition of anonymity.Kiran Visweswaraiah, general manager of international marketing at BEL, said: "We have teamed with Raytheon in January this year and by mid next year [the NCO] will be successfully inducted into Indian Navy."An executive with Raytheon, who spoke on condition of anonymity, confirmed that the company has partnered with BEL for the NCO program and will provide software solutions.According to Shyam Kumar Singh, a retired Indian Navy captain: "BEL and Raytheon will be able to deliver a successful NCO prototype."Singh said Raytheon has already delivered advanced systems to the Indian Navy through BEL, including the Athena system, a battle space information network which integrates a wide range of inputs.The Indian Navy had floated a global tender for an NCO project in 2007, which was sent to Lockheed Martin and Raytheon of the United States, Thales of France, EADS of Germany, Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Rafael of Israel, and BAE Systems of the United Kingdom.In 2011, Raytheon emerged as the lowest bidder followed by IAI and Rafael. But talks with Raytheon were called off after the firm refused to agree to a full technology transfer to BEL, the designated final production agency, an MoD source said.
In 2012, BEL forged a partnership with Selex Sistemi Integrati S.p.A., a subsidiary of Finmeccanica of Italy to build the NCO system jointly with BEL, but was later barred from participating after the

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Apr 2016 09:23

Navy concerns are very valid after Wikileaks and Edward Snowden , which idiot in MOD would not let Indian companies fully develop hardware and IN the encryption , the concerns regarding upgrade are also valid down the line they will have to pay huge $$ to just get that done if its done by foreign companies.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Apr 2016 09:35

So much for Uncle Sam giving us full TOT as well! And we want to sign on LEMOA,etc.There seems to be a strong US lobby in the MOD,whatever pushing for US control over the Indian armed forces and the political executive appears to be oblivious to the fact.

nits · Post by **nits** » 22 Apr 2016 10:42

Philip wrote:So much for Uncle Sam giving us full TOT as well! And we want to sign on LEMOA,etc.There seems to be a strong US lobby in the MOD,whatever pushing for US control over the Indian armed forces and the political executive appears to be oblivious to the fact.

Lately we have a US Lobby; we have a Russian Lobby from decades; French Lobby for Raffy and so on... What we dont have is a Desi Indian Lobby for all "Make in India" Maal

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Apr 2016 12:10

http://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/mak ... ector.html

Teething troubles

By Ajit Kumar Dubey | April 17, 2016
INSVikramaditya Troubled waters: INS Vikramaditya at the Arabian sea. 'Make in India' is yet to make a big impact in the defence sector | PTI
The Make in India programme is yet to make a big impact in the defence sector. “There are a lot of projects that are in the process of being finalised…. But there isn’t any new, big-ticket Make in India project in the defence sector that we can see on ground,” Lt Gen Narendra Singh, former deputy chief of the Army, told THE WEEK.

In the past two years, the government has been liberal in granting licences to make defence equipment ranging from night-vision goggles to submarines and aircraft engines. As many as 319 licences have been given to 190 companies since 2001. Of these, 50 companies with 79 licences have already started production.

Some Indian companies have responded to almost all tenders floated by the defence ministry, sometimes even without capability. Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence Ltd has bagged licences in almost all defence-related manufacturing fields, though the company does not have a track record that can generate trust in its ability to deliver on time.

The ministry is now looking into the financial health of the company and this has delayed important deals. Projects on hold include the Rs 20,000-crore contract for building four aircraft carrier-like landing platform docks and the Rs 15,000-crore deal for building shallow water crafts for anti-submarine warfare.

There are also companies that have been working in the sector for a long time, but want to build their capabilities before moving on to bigger projects. Adi Godrej, chairman of Godrej Group, which has contributed to the BrahMos cruise missile development, said his company did not want to get into each and every project on offer. “We are developing core competencies,” he said. “It will take some time for us to be in a position where we would be able to produce anything big like a helicopter.”

Tata and L&T have developed significant capabilities in terms of manufacturing facilities. They are taking up big projects such as the construction of 62 transport aircraft to replace the ageing Avro aircraft fleet of the Air Force. Said defence industry expert Deba R. Mohanty: “Tata and L&T, along with a few other Indian firms, have really come a long way in terms of capability of manufacturing big systems or working with foreign vendors in producing a big system.”

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 22 Apr 2016 12:45

Jhujar wrote:Raytheon-BEL Partnership Casts Shadow on India's NCO Program

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /83272094/
NEW DELHI — Despite the Indian Navy's serious reservations, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has quietly permitted state-owned Bharat Electronics Limited to team up with Raytheon of the United States to complete the much-delayed network-centric operation project.Bharat Electronics (BEL) was nominated by the MoD last year for the second time to build the network-centric operation (NCO) system at a cost of $100 million, and it is scheduled to be ready by early next year.The system will link crucial assets including shore-based radar networks, aircraft and Indian Navy warships.The Indian Navy has repeatedly told MoD that it is not in the national interest to acquire hardware and encryption software for the NCO project from a partnership with a foreign company."It is not feasible for any sovereign nation to weaken its operational doctrines and operational orders that would flow on" NCO networks developed with a foreign company, said a senior Indian Navy official, who spoke on condition of anonymity."However, the government has taken a complete U-turn and ignored our demand that NCO hardware should be fully developed by an Indian company and encryption software by the Indian Navy itself," the official added.The NCO project can succeed only if BEL uses sufficient domestic content for the hardware and develops the software completely in India, either in-house or by teaming up with Indian companies, said another Navy official said, adding that Raytheon will have to obtain International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) clearance."Even if BEL can make a successful NCO system with Raytheon, the bigger question is upgrades — after five years the hardware will become obsolete and software upgrades will require hardware upgrades," a defense analyst said, who spoke on condition of anonymity.Kiran Visweswaraiah, general manager of international marketing at BEL, said: "We have teamed with Raytheon in January this year and by mid next year [the NCO] will be successfully inducted into Indian Navy."An executive with Raytheon, who spoke on condition of anonymity, confirmed that the company has partnered with BEL for the NCO program and will provide software solutions.According to Shyam Kumar Singh, a retired Indian Navy captain: "BEL and Raytheon will be able to deliver a successful NCO prototype."Singh said Raytheon has already delivered advanced systems to the Indian Navy through BEL, including the Athena system, a battle space information network which integrates a wide range of inputs.The Indian Navy had floated a global tender for an NCO project in 2007, which was sent to Lockheed Martin and Raytheon of the United States, Thales of France, EADS of Germany, Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Rafael of Israel, and BAE Systems of the United Kingdom.In 2011, Raytheon emerged as the lowest bidder followed by IAI and Rafael. But talks with Raytheon were called off after the firm refused to agree to a full technology transfer to BEL, the designated final production agency, an MoD source said.
In 2012, BEL forged a partnership with Selex Sistemi Integrati S.p.A., a subsidiary of Finmeccanica of Italy to build the NCO system jointly with BEL, but was later barred from participating after the

As I have repeatedly said, defense sector imports are politically driven, while using some compromised Generals as mouth pieces. Here MoD has decided to be true to import policy dropping pretense of indigenisation.

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 22 Apr 2016 16:27

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/commen ... 22434.html

At sea with ageing fleet, cost & time overruns
By Dinesh Kumar
The Indian Navy, considered a vital instrument of diplomacy, power projection and essential for
safeguarding the country's manifold maritime interests, is suffering from serious time and cost
overruns. The country can ill afford these deficiencies, especially with China’s increased
presence in the Indian Ocean.
On April 11, Ashton Carter became the first US Secretary of Defence to visit an aircraft carrier
belonging to the Indian Navy when he was taken on board the 44,400-tonne Soviet-origin INS
Vikramaditya. While New Delhi's intention was to showcase the Navy's currently largest and most
powerful vessel, mandarins in South Block cannot be unaware of the serious deficiencies that afflict
the Indian Navy, considered a vital instrument of diplomacy, power projection and credible secondstrike
capability in the event of a nuclear war.
In many ways INS Vikramaditya's pre-induction history and current status serves as a microcosm
to what ails the Navy. Firstly, like the Army and the Air Force, the Navy is similarly largely importdependent
for all its submarines and fighter and maritime reconnaissance aircraft, most helicopters,
a few ships and for many sub systems, including missiles.
The Navy continues to suffer delays in most inductions while remaining dependent on foreign
vendors for requirements ranging from spares, servicing and mid life upgrades, to name a few.
Inefficient ship-building yards and manpower-related problems have added to the woes.
In the case of INS Vikramaditya, a helpless New Delhi was forced by Moscow to renegotiate the
contract to a significantly higher $2.3 billion. The purchase of 45 Russian-made MiG-29K fighters
for the aircraft carrier cost another $2 billion. Secondly, considerable cost and time overruns in
almost all production and developmental projects continue to be a cause of serious concern. INS
6
Vikramaditya entered service in June 2014, almost 10-and-a-half years after the purchase contract
was signed. Resultantly, the MiG-29Ks, first inducted four years prior in February 2010, had begun
depreciating well before they could be operationalised.
Further, just as the Navy functioned with a solitary aircraft carrier (INS Viraat) for 19 years — from
1995 to 2014 — it is again back to being a one-carrier Navy, with the 56-year-old INS Viraat now
practically retired.
A second aircraft carrier, currently under indigenous development (INS Vikrant), is already running
six years behind schedule and is at least another three years from entering service. Meantime, its
cost has risen six-fold — from Rs 3,261 crore to Rs 19,341 crore.
The three Kolkata-class stealth guided missile Destroyers, originally due for commissioning in 2009
and 2010, were inducted after a five to seven years’ delay in 2014, 2015 and 2016 — at an over
three-fold cost increase from Rs 3,580 crore to Rs 11,662 crore. Two of the four Kamorta-class
anti-submarine warfare corvettes, originally scheduled for delivery in 2009, 2011 and 2012, were
only delivered in 2014 and 2016 — with two more still awaited. The cost, meanwhile, has more
than doubled from Rs 3,051 crore to Rs 7,852 crore. Also running behind schedule is the
construction of five offshore patrol vessels, 80 interceptor craft and four attack crafts.
The worst is the submarine fleet, considered critical to complete the nuclear triad and to accompany
the Navy's aircraft carriers among other tasks. The Navy's conventional submarines, which regularly
require breaking surface to charge its batteries thus rendering it vulnerable to detection each time, is
down to just 13, with 12 of them between 22 and 30 years old.
Even the solitary youngest submarine is already 16 years old. The Navy has not inducted a single
submarine since 2000, even though the government in 1999 cleared a 30-year plan to induct 24
submarines by 2030.
The Navy will get its first conventional submarine (French-origin Scorpene) only in 2017, with five
more by 2021 with no further induction decided and, therefore, 18 short of the original plan. India's
indigenously developed nuclear-powered submarine, INS Arihant, is undergoing sea trials since
December 2014. Two more are currently under construction, while six more have been cleared for
construction for which, however, no deadline has been fixed. China, in contrast, operates about 60
submarines, nine of them nuclear-powered.
The Navy has a shortfall of 61 integral helicopters on its ships; has no deep submergence rescue
vehicles for rescuing sailors from submarines; and is dependent on the US in case a submarine is
disabled deep under water.
Most existing vessels are ageing and would necessitate decommissioning in the next 10 years. The
current six mine sweepers, for example, are over 25 years old. Besides, it has suffered an
unprecedented frequency of accidents and deaths a staggering 59 accidents between June 2007 and
November 2014, 14 of which occurred in 2014 alone and 24 between 2012 and 2014.
The most serious was the sinking of INS Sindhurakshak, a Russian-made kilo class submarine,
following a series of blasts in the torpedo section in August 2013. The shortage of officers and
sailors is, respectively, almost 1,600 (14.5 per cent) and 1,11,000 (17 per cent).
The Navy is finding it hard to maintain a force level of 138 ships and submarines approved by the
government 52 years ago in 1964, let alone increase levels to 198 ships and submarines approved
by the defence acquisition council in 2012.
All this is hardly comforting for a 21st- century Navy, with a maritime responsibility that includes
safeguarding a 7,517- km coastline, island territories across two seas at considerable distances from
the mainland and a 2 million sq km exclusive economic zone; maintaining sea lanes of
7
communication to ensure safe passage of ocean trade which constitutes 95 per cent by volume and
77 per cent by value.
In addition to these maritime responsibilities, the Navy also has to conduct anti-piracy and antiterrorist
operations and a wide range of maritime emergencies. Of course, it also has to counter the
increased Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean region.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 23 Apr 2016 11:59

@jayasimha - The above news article has general information already known from other original sources. Just posting the link would've sufficed. For those of us using mobile handsets, it would've saved effort in scrolling. Thanks!

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 23 Apr 2016 12:32

ji,,sarkar

next time as you say...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Apr 2016 14:44

The French/DCNS win of the Oz sub tender will have its impact upon the IN's future sub plans.France won it with a key offer,"not to give India advanced tech for subs",which it would provide only to OZ.With a planned 12 such subs to enter the OZ navy in the next 2 decades, The IN's Scorpenes will be outclassed especially as they barring the last 2,none have an AIP system and even the AIP system for the last two is yet to be decided as the DRDO has been trying to perfect its own system in time. Ironically,the first Scorpene built by MDL will grandly enter service without her...torpedoes! Such is the way of the MOD babus. The PN and PLAN must be shivering in their boots.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 26 Apr 2016 18:35

^^ Yes, DCNS won the Australian competition by offering a conventional version of their Barracuda submarine. 50 Billion for 12 submarines, with two partly built in France and remaining in Australia. The French have played this quite dirty, stating they'll never sell similar technology to other countries, specifically mentioning India. They've also stated that propeller technology is obsolete and pumpjet is the way to go. Wonder whether they should be allowed to participate in any opportunity in India, given the racist campaign they ran in Australia.

For reasons beyond my understanding, other than a potential colonial hangover, the Australians have always perceived India, Malaysia & Indonesia as threats. They led the East Timor breakup campaign creating it as a buffer state between Indonesia and Australia. The other buffer state being Papua New Guinea, that the Australians colonized until 1975.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Apr 2016 18:53

The french are good with their marketing , they could sell Agosta 90B to PN and Scorpene to IN promising not to sell the technology to either of them

With that kind of money Australia were better off investing in Nuke Sub and Pumpjet is effecient at high speed , its debatable a conventional submarine can sustain those high speed long enough.

Having said that congratulations to them for winning such a huge contract perhaps the highest money paid for any export submarine program.