Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

[Vipul]

Naval attachment set up in Lakshadweep.

A naval detachment aimed at enhancing the Navy's reach and surveillance of Arabian Sea waters was inaugurated in the island of Lakshadweep here.

The setting up of a naval detachment will extend Indian naval presence at Androth Island, provide communication network connectivity with mainland, enable Sea Lanes of Communication (SLOC) monitoring and function as an Observance and reporting organisation, besides radar surveillance, Vice Admiral Girish Luthra said.

"Lakshadweep and Mnicoy Islands occupy a strategic location in the Arabian Sea. A number of shipping lanes pass close to these islands. Setting up of a naval detachment at Androth Island will enhance the Navy's reach and surveillance, and contribute significantly to strengthen maritime security and stability," he said.

A number of infrastructure facilities at naval units located on Kavaratti, Minicoy, Agatti and Androth islands are also being progressively upgraded.

The naval detachment at Kavaratti was commissioned as a naval establishment, INS Dweeprakshak in 2012. Suitable ships are also being based at the islands to provide enhanced surveillance and immediate response capability.

[kit]

In particular the IN does consider the Australians as potential adversaries ..

[Singha]

the france promise never to share the barracuda with india by name blows the whole theory of 36 rafale deal being some smart move to get french sub tech out of the water (pun intended). its just a bad deal, let us call it that and close that chapter. perhaps build a few more scorpenes with drdo AIP, but they will not be the source of any technology for our SSN.

Namo should avoid any grand foreign deals for now and just ruthlessly fund and make perform all domestic projects.

[Philip]

Lakshadweep requires naval assets that can sanitise and fight from there.This would require a considerable infrastructure that should support all-weather blue water ops vessels both for the IN and CG.From this point,ops can be conducted 180 deg,north in the Arabian Sea and Gulf,Red Sea,E.African coast,The IOR islands-Maldives,Seychells,Mauritius,etc.,and keep an eye on activities happening on DG.

The French OZ sub win means that we need to look elsewhere for our next western sub tech.The Germans lost out because their subs being built,the 212/214s are too small and the 216 is a paper sub.However,the French sub design must deliver the goods as this report illustrates.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-26/w ... ce/7347034

Winning submarine bidder must meet Australia's 'range and endurance' requirements
By Malcolm Sutton

Shortfin Barracuda submarine
PHOTO: A Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A pre-concept design released as part of the DCNS pitch. (Supplied: DCNS)
RELATED STORY: Successful submarine bidder to be announced next week
MAP: Australia
With the winning bidder for Australia's next fleet of submarines announced as French company DCNS, attention has turned to how it will meet Australia's requirement for a long-range, high-endurance war machine.

Key points:

Submarines must accommodate crew for lengthy periods
American weaponry creates need for a 'three-way' collaboration
Chance for Australian industry to get involved in Shortfin Barracuda design
Australian Strategic Policy Institute Defence and Strategy Program director Andrew Davies said none of the off-the-shelf submarines that bidders drew their designs from had the range capability required by Australia.

The country's isolation and its need to patrol massive swathes of ocean waters mean it must have a fleet of submarines that can stay at sea for long periods of time.

"High endurance is not just a matter of fuel and payload," Mr Davies said.
"It's a matter of having enough people on board to do all the jobs that need to be done, without tiring out the crew."

Timeline: The promises and policy of the subs saga

The lead up to the submarine contract has involved election promises, business and political campaigns and lots of speculation.
Australia's existing Collins class submarines require a crew of about 58 people per boat and the Navy has reportedly struggled to maintain crew numbers during some periods.

Because of the long range that Australia's submarines will be required to travel, even if a boat requires a smaller crew - such as the 33 required to crew the Class 216 model unsuccessfully pitched by Germany company ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) - a large crew is still required for staff rotations.

"The question is, how habitable can you make the submarines, and how automated can you make them to reduce the stress on the crews in terms of the jobs they have to perform?" Mr Davies said.

He said the design for French company DCNS, the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A model, was essentially a scaled down version of its larger nuclear submarine.

"In terms of habitability ... it should be pretty good. You're starting from a design that has more space and more power than we'll have in our boat, but we should be able to reach those accommodations fairly quickly," Mr Davies said.

He said the Japanese had an interesting problem to solve in that "the average Japanese sailor is physically smaller than the average Australian sailor".

The existing Soryu class submarine upon which it based its Australian pitch offered accommodation spaces too small for Australians.

American weaponry a must for Australian subs

The submarines will also be designed to accommodate American combat systems and weapons.

Shortfin Barracuda submarine two
PHOTO: A concept design of the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A submerged in deep water. (Supplied: DCNS)
"The American weapon and combat system in the Collins has been built into what's essentially a Swedish design," Mr Davies said.

"It will be a three-way collaboration, Australia, the United States and whoever we pick as a provider.

"In fact, the Mark 84 torpedo is a weapon that's been a joint development of Australia and the United States and we'd like to stay in that program and keep that weapon. Whoever builds the submarines is going to have to incorporate that and that shouldn't be a problem."

Engineers Australia defence spokesperson Greg Walters said the combat system could be considered the "brains of the submarine and controls how the submarine operates the weapon systems and communications".

"It is extremely complex and will require a great many highly skilled and qualified people to integrate it into the new submarine and to maintain the system in Australia throughout the life of the fleet," he said.

"At least two-thirds of the approximately $50 billion that the Government has allocated to this 30-year-plus program will be spent in the sustainment phase

"This is the period after the initial build and involves the operations, maintenance, upgrade and in-service support of the submarine.

"Many Australian businesses have been tracking this opportunity and are well positioned to be involved."

Barracuda to displace 4,500 tonnes of water

The Australian Government stipulated that its next fleet of submarines would be conventionally powered, ruling out larger, nuclear powered submarines of the type the US commandeers.

DCNS said in its pitch that the diesel electric Barracuda would utilise a conventional pump jet propulsion system that would be more quiet than "obsolete propeller technology".

It said a pump jet propulsion "always had a tactical advantage" over an otherwise identical submarine with a propeller and would be fitted with the "most powerful sonar ever produced for a conventional submarine".

It said each submarine would be 97 metres long, weigh more than 4,000 tonnes once submerged, and displace 4,500 tonnes of water when it surfaces.

DCNS also said it would build a "mega submarine" construction facility in Adelaide if it won the bid.

Mr Walters said it was critical that Australian industry became closely involved in the engineering aspects of the Shortfin Barracuda's design.

He said bidders had only been asked to provide a pre-concept design to meet Australian capabilities and did not have a fully designed and developed submarine.

"This then creates an immediate opportunity," Mr Walters said.

"The build of the submarine may be many years away but the opportunities to be involved in the design phase will start now.

"It is critical ... that we now focus on our role in the design of the submarine and the development of the critical skills to sustain the fleet throughout its entire life."

[Kersi D]

Lakshadweep requires naval assets that can sanitise and fight from there.This would require a considerable infrastructure that should support all-weather blue water ops vessels both for the IN and CG.From this point,ops can be conducted 180 deg,north in the Arabian Sea and Gulf,Red Sea,E.African coast,The IOR islands-Maldives,Seychells,Mauritius,etc.,and keep an eye on activities happening on DG.

The French OZ sub win means that we need to look elsewhere for our next western sub tech.The Germans lost out because their subs being built,the 212/214s are too small and the 216 is a paper sub.However,the French sub design must deliver the goods as this report illustrates.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-26/w ... ce/7347034

Winning submarine bidder must meet Australia's 'range and endurance' requirements
By Malcolm Sutton

Shortfin Barracuda submarine
PHOTO: A Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A pre-concept design released as part of the DCNS pitch. (Supplied: DCNS)
RELATED STORY: Successful submarine bidder to be announced next week
MAP: Australia
With the winning bidder for Australia's next fleet of submarines announced as French company DCNS, attention has turned to how it will meet Australia's requirement for a long-range, high-endurance war machine.

Key points:

Submarines must accommodate crew for lengthy periods
American weaponry creates need for a 'three-way' collaboration
Chance for Australian industry to get involved in Shortfin Barracuda design
Australian Strategic Policy Institute Defence and Strategy Program director Andrew Davies said none of the off-the-shelf submarines that bidders drew their designs from had the range capability required by Australia.

The country's isolation and its need to patrol massive swathes of ocean waters mean it must have a fleet of submarines that can stay at sea for long periods of time.

"High endurance is not just a matter of fuel and payload," Mr Davies said.
"It's a matter of having enough people on board to do all the jobs that need to be done, without tiring out the crew."

Timeline: The promises and policy of the subs saga

The lead up to the submarine contract has involved election promises, business and political campaigns and lots of speculation.
Australia's existing Collins class submarines require a crew of about 58 people per boat and the Navy has reportedly struggled to maintain crew numbers during some periods.

Because of the long range that Australia's submarines will be required to travel, even if a boat requires a smaller crew - such as the 33 required to crew the Class 216 model unsuccessfully pitched by Germany company ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) - a large crew is still required for staff rotations.

"The question is, how habitable can you make the submarines, and how automated can you make them to reduce the stress on the crews in terms of the jobs they have to perform?" Mr Davies said.

He said the design for French company DCNS, the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A model, was essentially a scaled down version of its larger nuclear submarine.

"In terms of habitability ... it should be pretty good. You're starting from a design that has more space and more power than we'll have in our boat, but we should be able to reach those accommodations fairly quickly," Mr Davies said.

He said the Japanese had an interesting problem to solve in that "the average Japanese sailor is physically smaller than the average Australian sailor".

The existing Soryu class submarine upon which it based its Australian pitch offered accommodation spaces too small for Australians.

American weaponry a must for Australian subs

The submarines will also be designed to accommodate American combat systems and weapons.

Shortfin Barracuda submarine two
PHOTO: A concept design of the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A submerged in deep water. (Supplied: DCNS)
"The American weapon and combat system in the Collins has been built into what's essentially a Swedish design," Mr Davies said.

"It will be a three-way collaboration, Australia, the United States and whoever we pick as a provider.

"In fact, the Mark 84 torpedo is a weapon that's been a joint development of Australia and the United States and we'd like to stay in that program and keep that weapon. Whoever builds the submarines is going to have to incorporate that and that shouldn't be a problem."

Engineers Australia defence spokesperson Greg Walters said the combat system could be considered the "brains of the submarine and controls how the submarine operates the weapon systems and communications".

"It is extremely complex and will require a great many highly skilled and qualified people to integrate it into the new submarine and to maintain the system in Australia throughout the life of the fleet," he said.

"At least two-thirds of the approximately $50 billion that the Government has allocated to this 30-year-plus program will be spent in the sustainment phase

"This is the period after the initial build and involves the operations, maintenance, upgrade and in-service support of the submarine.

"Many Australian businesses have been tracking this opportunity and are well positioned to be involved."

Barracuda to displace 4,500 tonnes of water

The Australian Government stipulated that its next fleet of submarines would be conventionally powered, ruling out larger, nuclear powered submarines of the type the US commandeers.

DCNS said in its pitch that the diesel electric Barracuda would utilise a conventional pump jet propulsion system that would be more quiet than "obsolete propeller technology".

It said a pump jet propulsion "always had a tactical advantage" over an otherwise identical submarine with a propeller and would be fitted with the "most powerful sonar ever produced for a conventional submarine".

It said each submarine would be 97 metres long, weigh more than 4,000 tonnes once submerged, and displace 4,500 tonnes of water when it surfaces.

DCNS also said it would build a "mega submarine" construction facility in Adelaide if it won the bid.

Mr Walters said it was critical that Australian industry became closely involved in the engineering aspects of the Shortfin Barracuda's design.

He said bidders had only been asked to provide a pre-concept design to meet Australian capabilities and did not have a fully designed and developed submarine.

"This then creates an immediate opportunity," Mr Walters said.

"The build of the submarine may be many years away but the opportunities to be involved in the design phase will start now.

"It is critical ... that we now focus on our role in the design of the submarine and the development of the critical skills to sustain the fleet throughout its entire life."

Can I have one such submarine too ?

[Austin]

Factory Acceptance Test of ECA Group’s Converters for two Indian Navy Scorpene-class Submarines
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=3890

As it had been done before in May 2015 for Indian Scorpene submarines 3 and 4, DCNS experts carried out the FAT of 8 ECA Group converters (2 x Static converter 60 kVA + 2 x Static converter 5 kVA per submarine), designed to be installed onboard Indian Scorpene submarines 5 and 6.



During the FAT procedure, ECA Group teams enabled our customer, DCNS, to control and validate the good running of each equipment.

The FAT resulted to be accepted for the whole equipment, thus allowing the shipping of the converters for the fifth submarine.

The delivery took place on March 31st at DCNS Cherbourg, whereas the converters for the 6th submarine will remain in ECA Group premises as training support within the framework of on-board crew training.

ECA Group has been partnering DCNS in all of its submarines programs for 80 years. ECA Group congratulates DCNS for the Australian submarines designation and is ready to take part in this new adventure.

[Singha]

scorpene is truly a small submarine.

[kit]

http://idrw.org/us-challenges-india-chi ... more-93354

The US military conducted “freedom of navigation” operations against 13 countries last year, including India and China, according to an annual Pentagon report.In the report for the period October 1, 2014 to September 30, 2015, the Pentagon said it exercised its right of freedom of navigation multiple times against China, India, Indonesia, Iran, Libya, Malaysia, Maldives, Oman, the Philippines and Vietnam. However, it did not give any further details in its two-page report.The US military carried out single operations against Argentina, Nicaragua and Taiwan, the report said.“Prior consent required for military exercises or maneuvers in the EEZ (exclusive economic zone),” the Pentagon report said on India. On China, it said excessive maritime claims included excessive straight baselines; jurisdiction over airspace above the EEZ, restriction on foreign aircraft flying through an Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) without the intent to enter national airspace; domestic law criminalizing survey activity by foreign entities in the EEZ; prior permission required for innocent passage of foreign military ships through the territorial seas (TTS) . In 2014, the US had challenged territorial claims of 18 countries including India, China and Brazil.While China claims that the US is unnecessarily targeting it, the Pentagon says it conducts freedom of navigation operations around the world. Such operations involve sending navy ships and military aircraft into areas where other countries have tried to limit access.

[kit]

deleted

[kit]

Lakshadweep requires naval assets that can sanitise and fight from there.This would require a considerable infrastructure that should support all-weather blue water ops vessels both for the IN and CG.From this point,ops can be conducted 180 deg,north in the Arabian Sea and Gulf,Red Sea,E.African coast,The IOR islands-Maldives,Seychells,Mauritius,etc.,and keep an eye on activities happening on DG.

The French OZ sub win means that we need to look elsewhere for our next western sub tech.The Germans lost out because their subs being built,the 212/214s are too small and the 216 is a paper sub.However,the French sub design must deliver the goods as this report illustrates.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-26/w ... ce/7347034

Winning submarine bidder must meet Australia's 'range and endurance' requirements
By Malcolm Sutton

Shortfin Barracuda submarine
PHOTO: A Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A pre-concept design released as part of the DCNS pitch. (Supplied: DCNS)
RELATED STORY: Successful submarine bidder to be announced next week
MAP: Australia
With the winning bidder for Australia's next fleet of submarines announced as French company DCNS, attention has turned to how it will meet Australia's requirement for a long-range, high-endurance war machine.

Key points:

Submarines must accommodate crew for lengthy periods
American weaponry creates need for a 'three-way' collaboration
Chance for Australian industry to get involved in Shortfin Barracuda design
Australian Strategic Policy Institute Defence and Strategy Program director Andrew Davies said none of the off-the-shelf submarines that bidders drew their designs from had the range capability required by Australia.

The country's isolation and its need to patrol massive swathes of ocean waters mean it must have a fleet of submarines that can stay at sea for long periods of time.

"High endurance is not just a matter of fuel and payload," Mr Davies said.
"It's a matter of having enough people on board to do all the jobs that need to be done, without tiring out the crew."

Timeline: The promises and policy of the subs saga

The lead up to the submarine contract has involved election promises, business and political campaigns and lots of speculation.
Australia's existing Collins class submarines require a crew of about 58 people per boat and the Navy has reportedly struggled to maintain crew numbers during some periods.

Because of the long range that Australia's submarines will be required to travel, even if a boat requires a smaller crew - such as the 33 required to crew the Class 216 model unsuccessfully pitched by Germany company ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) - a large crew is still required for staff rotations.

"The question is, how habitable can you make the submarines, and how automated can you make them to reduce the stress on the crews in terms of the jobs they have to perform?" Mr Davies said.

He said the design for French company DCNS, the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A model, was essentially a scaled down version of its larger nuclear submarine.

"In terms of habitability ... it should be pretty good. You're starting from a design that has more space and more power than we'll have in our boat, but we should be able to reach those accommodations fairly quickly," Mr Davies said.

He said the Japanese had an interesting problem to solve in that "the average Japanese sailor is physically smaller than the average Australian sailor".

The existing Soryu class submarine upon which it based its Australian pitch offered accommodation spaces too small for Australians.

American weaponry a must for Australian subs

The submarines will also be designed to accommodate American combat systems and weapons.

Shortfin Barracuda submarine two
PHOTO: A concept design of the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A submerged in deep water. (Supplied: DCNS)
"The American weapon and combat system in the Collins has been built into what's essentially a Swedish design," Mr Davies said.

"It will be a three-way collaboration, Australia, the United States and whoever we pick as a provider.

"In fact, the Mark 84 torpedo is a weapon that's been a joint development of Australia and the United States and we'd like to stay in that program and keep that weapon. Whoever builds the submarines is going to have to incorporate that and that shouldn't be a problem."

Engineers Australia defence spokesperson Greg Walters said the combat system could be considered the "brains of the submarine and controls how the submarine operates the weapon systems and communications".

"It is extremely complex and will require a great many highly skilled and qualified people to integrate it into the new submarine and to maintain the system in Australia throughout the life of the fleet," he said.

"At least two-thirds of the approximately $50 billion that the Government has allocated to this 30-year-plus program will be spent in the sustainment phase

"This is the period after the initial build and involves the operations, maintenance, upgrade and in-service support of the submarine.

"Many Australian businesses have been tracking this opportunity and are well positioned to be involved."

Barracuda to displace 4,500 tonnes of water

The Australian Government stipulated that its next fleet of submarines would be conventionally powered, ruling out larger, nuclear powered submarines of the type the US commandeers.

DCNS said in its pitch that the diesel electric Barracuda would utilise a conventional pump jet propulsion system that would be more quiet than "obsolete propeller technology".

It said a pump jet propulsion "always had a tactical advantage" over an otherwise identical submarine with a propeller and would be fitted with the "most powerful sonar ever produced for a conventional submarine".

It said each submarine would be 97 metres long, weigh more than 4,000 tonnes once submerged, and displace 4,500 tonnes of water when it surfaces.

DCNS also said it would build a "mega submarine" construction facility in Adelaide if it won the bid.

Mr Walters said it was critical that Australian industry became closely involved in the engineering aspects of the Shortfin Barracuda's design.

He said bidders had only been asked to provide a pre-concept design to meet Australian capabilities and did not have a fully designed and developed submarine.

"This then creates an immediate opportunity," Mr Walters said.

"The build of the submarine may be many years away but the opportunities to be involved in the design phase will start now.

"It is critical ... that we now focus on our role in the design of the submarine and the development of the critical skills to sustain the fleet throughout its entire life."

Can I have one such submarine too ?

IN s route i guess would be towards the HDW or even the kockums ..if they have a mega sub !

By the way Indian shipmen would be same size as Japanese ?

[kit]

The Scorpene uses HLES 80 steel (same as HY80) .. The first production submarines to use HY-80 steel were the Permit class. These reportedly had a normal operating depth of 1,300 feet, roughly two-thirds the crush depth limit imposed by the steel.[4] USS Thresher, the lead boat of this class, was lost in an accident in 1963. At the time, this unexplained accident raised much controversy about its cause and the new HY-80 steel used was looked at suspiciously, especially for theories about weld cracking having been the cause of the loss.`(Wiki)


HY-80 steels are produced by, amongst others, ArcelorMittal in the USA.

[kit]

looks like every country looks to indigenise the sub electronics ..."As the Turkish Type 214 will have a significant amount of Turkish indigenous systems on board, this variant of the Type 214 will be known as the Type 214TN (Turkish Navy). HDW will preassemble structural and mechanical parts of the submarine in Germany, or classified elements such as the fuel cells and propulsion system and will then ship them to Turkey. All electronic and weapon systems (including the C4I system) will be of Turkish production.
On 1 July 2011, the 2 billion euros order for six U 214 submarine material packages placed with ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems by Turkey entered into force with receipt of the advance payment. This enabled ThyssenKrupp to begin executing the order. The order was designated to contribute to securing employment at HDW in Kiel, as well as at many subcontractors in Germany and Turkey, for the next ten years. Yet, recently Turkey has received around 2 Million euros compensation from ThyssenKrupp due to delayed manufacturing of the Type214TN. Possible reason for this delay is Turkeys demand for in-house developed software within the submarines."

[Cosmo_R]

^^ ... The French have played this quite dirty, stating they'll never sell similar technology to other countries, specifically mentioning India. They've also stated that propeller technology is obsolete and pumpjet is the way to go. Wonder whether they should be allowed to participate in any opportunity in India, given the racist campaign they ran in Australia.

....

That alone is grounds for not going through with the Rafale deal. I had hoped that the 36 were part of some sort of larger plan for a MIC but it now seems like just another ad hoc tactical keep them happy kind of move.

I think I'll vote for Karan M's JSF interim buy now Maybe (always some hope for a decision--any decision) when NaMo goes to DC in June.

[Karan M]

It might well happen that way but with F-35 replacing the FGFA, given Sukhoi doesn't want to involve IAF in trials right now (since the testbed will be full of bugs and IAF may get concerned and have the deal cancelled) and the F-35 matures, with positive PR. Our near complete reliance on Russia for spares for most old kit will be what worries GOI though.

[srai]

For the same amount of money, I would vote for F-35 buy instead. It would be the latest everyone is buying and Indian designers have the most potential to learn a lot just from everyday use and close inspection on design/build. Useful for AMCA VLO design as well as for the IAF to learn how to employ stealth and counter stealth.

[Singha]

Only reservation on jsf is will oem help to integrate indian, or french israeli weapons? Rus will clearly not be possible

Might take years or never happen if oem drags its feet

[srai]

^^^

US weapons are relatively cheap due to volume production. Plus, lots of choices. If the IAF is looking for a 'mature' platform (like a Rafale for instance) that already comes integrated with wide range of stores and global LCC support, then go for F-35 JSF. Sacrifice initial ToT/Offset/customization for a quicker induction. Then, slowly customize through mini/major MLUs down the road.

[Lalmohan]

well they are not cheap per se, but the USN/DOD makes manufacturers follow a scale effect cost curve over the lifetime of the programme. they have to figure out how to reduce the costs exponentially

[Khalsa]

It might well happen that way but with F-35 replacing the FGFA, given Sukhoi doesn't want to involve IAF in trials right now (since the testbed will be full of bugs and IAF may get concerned and have the deal cancelled) and the F-35 matures, with positive.

Karan , thats interesting tell me more.
I mean to ask why and how you came up with that.

See my take has been that the Russians (by their nature and not their intentions) will make another INS Vik out of this.
We pump the money for a long time without seeing many results and hardly anything tangible.

[Indranil]

This tu-tu-main-main between IAF-MoD-HAL-Sukhoi-Russia will continue, and then we will get quite a few PAKFA in the end. On IN assets, expect either more Mig-29Ks or Rafale-Ms.

F-35s will be considered. There will be presentations etc. But both sides know that F-35s have very little chance in India right now. Even the F-16/18 delegation knew well that their chances of landing a deal in lieu of the Rafales were extremely slim.

[Aditya G]

Is Shortfin Barracuda same as SMX Ocean concept?

[Karan M]

It might well happen that way but with F-35 replacing the FGFA, given Sukhoi doesn't want to involve IAF in trials right now (since the testbed will be full of bugs and IAF may get concerned and have the deal cancelled) and the F-35 matures, with positive.

Karan , thats interesting tell me more.
I mean to ask why and how you came up with that.

See my take has been that the Russians (by their nature and not their intentions) will make another INS Vik out of this.
We pump the money for a long time without seeing many results and hardly anything tangible.

I have the feeling that more and more, the IAF is getting fed up of Russian inability to play by their rules.
Their rules - show us everything, and it better be good. IAF is not too aware of the involved nature of product gestation and hence expect a good result. Developers typically overstate their aims and understate the challenges which hypes up the expectations of customers like IAF even more.
So, to avoid bad PR for an in development product, the Russians are limiting IAF involvement. They also want to retain maximal local control so are limiting Indian industrial involvement (greed). Result of both is IAF is upset. As C-17, C-130 serviceability remains high and reports start emerging of super duper F-35, movement might well occur to get it vs the FGFA. Worst case scenario, IAF babu combination is silly enough to take both FGFA and F-35 and ditch AMCA. Which likely wont occur.

[srai]

Let's hope that the commitment to AMCA remains regardless of whatever transpires in Rafale/JSF/FGFA acquisition programs.

[Khalsa]

Thanks Karan. Align with your observations. The bit about overstating and understating is damn good take on the situation.

[Singha]

SMX Ocean == shortfin barracuda

http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... submarine/

[Austin]

SMX Ocean == shortfin barracuda

http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... submarine/

I bet this new project and clean sheet design will get delayed even the proven Scorpene design the French Sub program for IN got delayed by couple of years. At more than $3.5 Billion per sub this must be the most expensive conventional submarine in the world. With DCN experience they will face lesser challenges compared to ill fated Collins program

Spending $40 billion on 12 subs the Ausies were better off just getting 6 Barracuda SSN

[Cybaru]

I think diesels should be small. Might as well make bigger boats and make them nuke boats.

[Philip]

Subs conventional.The IN's need is not huge ones like the OZ req,as Oz do not operate nuclear boats.Extra range and endurance is what they wanted.Our N-boats have a 90 day patrol time and unlimited range upto the life of the reactor.time. AIP subs upto 3000t will suffice for us for all IOR ops ,including forays into the ICS and pacific waters if the subs are stationed/supported in the A&N islands too. Once the 6 SSNs are in the water and hopefully a few Akula SSGNs still on lease/purchased,the IN will be able to conduct permanent patrols outside IOR waters in a forward position to meet any mischief from the PLAN.

Many moons ago I passed on a titibit recd about why the Rafale deal was in the doldrums,it was then during the UPA era. Answer,pressure from the yanquis.The recent "full court press" by Uncle Sam with offers of SHs and F-16s built in India with "TOT",validated the titbit. Despite this huge pressure the GOI appears ready to sign on for the Raffy,IAF's choice,however at very questionable high cost.The reasons for going ahead with the Raffy despite the cost factor are not in the public domain. We will have to wait and seethe future fleet acquisitions to make up the numbers as the LCA is woefully behind time and production rates are extremely insufficient to meet the IAF's needs.

[Aditya G]

INS Veer and INS Nipat have been retired. That leaves us with 18 Missile Corvettes. Lets hope to see some action on Nex Gen Missile Vessel soon!

tsarkar: why was the original Killer squadron - 25th - disbanded? Why were the boats reconstituted under 22nd Squadron?

[Karan M]

Let's hope that the commitment to AMCA remains regardless of whatever transpires in Rafale/JSF/FGFA acquisition programs.

on the plus side. having DRDO indigenize some items and support to these activities.
on the negative side, long history of running down programs like LCA and being disinterested.
hoepfully IAF bigwigs of tomorrow realize that relying on imports forever is not the way forward.

[Cain Marko]

I think diesels should be small. Might as well make bigger boats and make them nuke boats.

Based on the rfi for the p75i project. India too wants a large boat. Hence the interest expressed in the soryu. But if we can get france to collaborate on ssns of chakra size, perhaps the raffle will also see more numbers...

[Austin]

Good Lord if Aus deal is the yard stick they will build 12 Subs for $20 billion then buying 6 for P-75I will cost us atleast $ 20 billion !

Any sub even with AIP above 2000-2500 ton will have tactical restriction with conventional propulsion be it speed , under water endurance , it is better to get a proper SSN with that kind of money and build it in India something we should be capable of doing with helping hand from French & Russian.

[Austin]

Indian Navy programmes face long delays, cost overruns

http://www.janes.com/article/59890/indi ... t-overruns

[Philip]

Very true,why the IN is firm on the SSNs being built in India.The CNS has recently reiterated the indigenisation goal as well.

Interesting report in the media today.The R Co. has signed on sev defence cooperation deals with the UKR.It is aiming for anything! T-72 modernisation ,where 2500 tanks (!) are to be upgraded with advanced tech.Engines for warships.Here the IN is said to be acquiring/building 4 more Talwars with a second batch (built in India obviously) of another 6.The Talwars seem to be a success with their huge bang for the buck/size. It also allows the IN to acquire more platforms for the ever-increasing tasks in the IOR and beyond.

Also signed on an agreement for a medium transport aircraft for the IAF's requirements. Must be with Antonov.

[arun]

Ukranian firm Zorya-Masproekt is reported as having concluded a contract for “re-equipment of small-sized ships of the Indian Navy” by “replacement of engines and reducers”.

Any clue on what these “small sized ships” may be Veer Class

Ukraines Zorya-Mashproekt To Supply Equipment For Indian Navy Ships

[kmkraoind]

Captain DK Sharma @CaptDKS

#P75Kalvari @_makeinindia efforts of IN & MDL achieve a significant milestone.P 75 sm Kalvari sails out 4 sea trials

[Cybaru]

Damn, thats crowded harbor! We need boats bigger than Maruti Alto.. Sheesh, this thing is tiny! How long does this stay in water again?

Well at least its in the water! Congratulations IN. Two new Subs for you. One Diesel and one nuke soon.

[Austin]

Damn, thats crowded harbor! We need boats bigger than Maruti Alto.. Sheesh, this thing is tiny! How long does this stay in water again?

Well at least its in the water! Congratulations IN. Two new Subs for you. One Diesel and one nuke soon.

The camera angle makes it look like small but its around 65-70 m long with endurance of more than 45 days with AIP it adds 20 more days. Very lethal weapons and very capable one , In the end it will depend on how experience and well trained the crew is that would be the key distinguishing factor with subs of comparable generation

[Austin]

Future of Indian navy anchored in self reliance: Navy chief

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/futu ... 45407.html

[Yagnasri]

Future of Indian navy anchored in self reliance: Navy chief

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/futu ... 45407.html

This is why we love IN. No - no plan B type statements from them. Never.