Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

Talking of carriers:

Nuclear Carriers Vs Nuclear Subs

The writer retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnam
The US defence secretary Ashton Carter is expected to visit Visakhapatnam on June 3 and then New Delhi on June 4-5 to sign the 10-year Indo-US Enhanced Defence Framework Agreement, and convince India to accept an American design for the recently announced indigenous 65,000-ton aircraft carrier, along with the latest American EMALS (Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System) and AAWS (Advanced Arrester Wire System), and operate the latest American carrier-borne F-35C jet fighters. {Is that right}

In April 2015, the media reported that the defence ministry had cleared various pending projects, including funding of an initial Rs 30 crore as “seed money” to commence project work on India’s next indigenous 65,000-ton aircraft carrier, to be named INS Vishal.

The Indian Navy currently operates non-nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, i.e. the 56-year-old, 28,0000-ton, steam-driven INS Viraat and the 43,000-ton, steam-driven INS Vikramaditya. At the same time, the gas-turbine-powered 37,000-ton INS Vikrant is under construction and is expected to join the Navy in 2018. The reasons stated for the new INS Vishal are valid, i.e. for an aircraft carrier to be viable, it needs to embark at least 36 fighter aircraft and another 12 helicopters, and this is possible only on carriers larger than 65,000 tons (INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant can each embark only 18 fighters and 12 helicopters).

A debate has now started about the need or otherwise of nuclear propulsion for the proposed INS Vishal. Nuclear power is expensive to acquire, maintain and needs highly trained personnel to operate. While nuclear power provides natural stealth to submarines by enabling them to remain totally submerged in the ocean depths for months, a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier is visible and detectable by electronic and satellite surveillance as it sails on the ocean surface. Additionally, while nuclear power provides long periods of propulsion without refuelling, American nuclear-powered aircraft carriers still need weekly replenishment at sea (from a non-nuclear replenishment ship) of aviation fuel, lubricants, air armaments etc, and the same replenishment ship, needs to refuel another eight more conventionally powered warships every three days (these warships protect the aircraft carrier against various enemy threats).

In 1954, the world’s first nuclear submarine, the American USS Nautilus, was commissioned. It operated on LEU (low enriched uranium, i.e. below 19 per cent enrichment), and this reactor fuel enabled the single reactor submarine to operate for two years before uranium refuelling, and provided a total of 200 days sailing at economic speed.

Reactor uranium fuelling is expensive and time consuming. To overcome this shortcoming, the Americans gradually increased the uranium enrichment to HEU (highly enriched uranium, i.e. 93 per cent enrichment) to enable present-day American nuclear submarines and nuclear-powered aircraft carriers to operate for 25 years, without reactor fuel change. India does not have this HEU propulsion technology yet.

Apart from nuclear or conventional propulsion, aircraft carriers are further subdivided into three categories.

The first is the CATOBAR (catapult assisted takeoff but arrested recovery). It is the most expensive and most capable (rapid aircraft launch rate of one aircraft every 20 seconds, while the other two carrier types can launch at one minute per aircraft). It uses one or more catapults to launch aircraft within a 150-metre deck length and arrester wires to recover the aircraft which land within a 100-metre deck length by using an aircraft tail hook to attach themselves to one of the three or four arrester wires.

Earlier, American aircraft carriers used steam catapults and hydraulic arrester wires, but now the latest 2015 American Ford class carrier will operate the new EMALS and AAWS. These two new systems, which are now on offer to the Indian Navy, require the aircraft carrier to produce three times more electric power than earlier CATOBAR designs. Ideally it would need two powerful nuclear reactors of the American A1B BECHTEL type, which power the new USS Gerald R. Ford, and each of which can produce 180 MWe. Unfortunately, the Americans are not willing to transfer nuclear reactor propulsion technology. As a result India will have a non-nuclear, gas-turbine -powered, but still very expensive INS Vishal.

The second type of carrier is the STOVL (short take-off and vertical landing) type that is the simplest and cheapest. INS Viraat is an example of STOVL, where the sub-sonic Sea Harrier jets take off (without catapult) in about 200 metres deck length from a ski jump ramp, and land vertically. The American supersonic F-35B is the latest stealth jet fighter capable of such short take-off and vertical landing operations.

The third type of carrier is the STOBAR (short take-off but arrested recovery), which is used on INS Vikramaditya (and also for the INS Vikrant under construction). Here the Russian MiG-29K or the Indian light combat aircraft takes off from 200 metres deck length (without catapult) from a ski jump ramp and lands in 100 metres deck length using its tail hook to catch one of three hydraulic arrester wires.

The UK has got nuclear reactor technology for its nuclear submarines, but has wisely decided that its next two 65,000-ton aircraft carriers (due for commissioning in 2018 and 2020) will be non-nuclear, STOVL type and conventionally powered by gas turbines. The aircraft selected are the American F-35B jets. These British carriers are estimated to cost about $4 billion each (the new American nuclear Ford class 100,000-ton carrier with EMALS and AAWS costs $13 billion).

Before India embarks on a new 65,000-ton aircraft carrier and its aircraft, it needs to look closely at funding availability (for aircraft, ship, spares, training etc), state of indigenous marine nuclear powered reactor technology, availability of indigenous uranium supplies (and whether our limited uranium stocks are better used for indigenous nuclear powered submarines), and, finally, vulnerability of the aircraft carrier to Chinese nuclear submarines and the new-shore-based 1,500-km-range DF-21D, anti-aircraft carrier ballistic missile system which may be based on Pakistan’s coast. The aircraft would need to be a fifth-generation stealth fighter like the American F-35B (STOVL) or a modified version of the Russian FGFA (STOBAR) planned for the Indian Air Force. To put it simply, India could build two STOVL or two STOBAR non-nuclear carriers for the cost of one nuclear CATOBAR carrier. The money saved could be gainfully used for indigenous production of critically needed nuclear and conventional submarines
d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by d_berwal »

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 249_1.html

some extracts.... read for yourself..
When Chinese troops were racing through Arunachal Pradesh towards the Brahmaputra valley in 1962 and Jawaharlal Nehru feared for the future of Assam, Washington was the first number he dialled. The United States responded in hours, flying in weapons and equipment in an overt expression of support that was one reason why Beijing vacated captured Indian territory ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ DTTI is becoming an arena for competition, not cooperation. Proposals mooted by the Pentagon are pooh-poohed in South Block as less than high-tech (and, truth be told, many of them are). Simultaneously, the Pentagon views New Delhi's proposals as overly demanding. An example is India's desire for hot engine technology, which US engine makers say is hardly realistic given that this involves the fruit of billions of dollars and decades worth of fundamental research, design and development....................................................................................................................................................................................................................... But there is still little conviction in Washington that New Delhi is willing to lock eyes with Beijing.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 249_1.html

how much is he getting paid ?

Without the engine TOT no LCA mass production!!!

same as without the engine and transmission TOT for ARJUN no mass production!!!

Since as India i am willing to buy and produce even if non-economical, seller cannot say i will not sell you as you will be in loss..!!! (loss is subjective when it compared to national interest)

show me proof that US and EU has agreed for TOT of Fighter and AFV engine to INDIA.... Can you?
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

d_berwal wrote:http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 249_1.html

some extracts.... read for yourself..

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
The Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI), too, seems to be losing steam. Mr Carter, in his earlier avatar as the Pentagon's number two to Leon Panetta and Bill Gates, had personally promoted the DTTI as a high-level political body that would break down entrenched bureaucratic resistance in both capitals to increased cooperation.
d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by d_berwal »

@ brar_w

Without the engine TOT no LCA mass production!!!

same as without the engine and transmission TOT for ARJUN no mass production!!!

It is the US who had banned/sanctioned these projects after 98-99 Nu tests by Indian. (And the media makes us believe that US is our eternal friend where we should sacrifice our national interest in favor of US Interest)

Since as India i am willing to buy and produce even if non-economical, seller cannot say i will not sell you as you will be in loss..!!! (loss is subjective when it compared to national interest)

show me proof that US and EU has agreed for TOT of Fighter and AFV engine to INDIA.... Can you?

what do you have to say? (just to poke you Russians are far ahead in this respect, will you agree or disagree?)

brar_w bhai kya hua .... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: (silna padage kya) :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Last edited by d_berwal on 08 Jun 2015 23:11, edited 3 times in total.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

show me proof that US and EU has agreed for TOT of Fighter and AFV engine to INDIA.... Can you?
There hasn't been. The MMRCA was to deal with TOT but from what we know issues were too complicated to advance the negotiations and the rules and regulations did not prevent them from going to the other down-selected supplier.

Technology transfer is always going to be a related to the willingness to sell certain technologies and then the amount the holders of the rights to the technologies demand for that technology.
just to poke you Russians are far ahead in this respect, will you agree or disagree?
Sure they are because you are dealing with government entities but that brings its own headaches and issues. Plus the deal with MMRCA was diversification away from Russian suppliers. But I have always claimed that the headache to acquire technology from the russians would always be significantly less compared to western sources. So if EMALS is the way to go, let the russians do the tech transfer. Same thing with jet engines, develop a RD-33+ for the AMCA just like the Chinese for the J-31. If that is what the IAF/ADA/HAL want then that will be better from a technology transfer POV.
d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by d_berwal »

@ brar_w bhai question ka reply karo... circle me mat ghamo.... answer dene me phati hai kay

Without the engine TOT no LCA mass production!!!

same as without the engine and transmission TOT for ARJUN no mass production!!!

It is the US who had banned/sanctioned these projects (and also made sure EU banned/sanctioned these projects after 98-99 Nu tests by Indian and the media makes us believe that US is our eternal friend where we should sacrifice our national interest in favor of US Interest)

bhailog aap log 98-99 ke ban/sanction ko kaise bhool gaye, let me remind you:

Arjun is not in mass production because of 98-99 ke ban/sanction
LCA is not in mass production because of 98-99 ke ban/sanction

rest applog jitna INDAI ko bechna chate ho bech lo... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Last edited by d_berwal on 08 Jun 2015 23:26, edited 1 time in total.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

d_berwal wrote:@ brar_w bhai question ka reply karo... circle me mat ghamo.... answer dene me phati hai kay

Without the engine TOT no LCA mass production!!!

same as without the engine and transmission TOT for ARJUN no mass production!!!

It is the US who had banned/sanctioned these projects after 98-99 Nu tests by Indian. (And the media makes us believe that US is our eternal friend where we should sacrifice our national interest in favor of US Interest)
So where is the question?

Without the engine TOT no LCA mass production!!!
Thats for the MOD to decide. If they do not get the desired level of TOT then by all means junk the GE Engine and look elsewhere where the desired TOT is available.
same as without the engine and transmission TOT for ARJUN no mass production!!!
I am afraid I have no background knowledge of the arjun issue so cannot comment on that.
It is the US who had banned/sanctioned these projects after 98-99 Nu tests by Indian. (And the media makes us believe that US is our eternal friend where we should sacrifice our national interest in favor of US Interest)
Again, where is the question? You have made a statement that without TOT there would be no LCA mass production. If this is the official position of the MOD, and they are not satisfied with the deals they are negotiating then by all means carry out that "policy position". I am not aware whether such policy positions exist (LCA mass production contingent on F404/414 TOT), would love some clarification though!!

The only question in your posts was asking me to show TOT in engines to which I replied with " there hasn't been"
Last edited by brar_w on 08 Jun 2015 23:33, edited 1 time in total.
d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by d_berwal »

brar_w wrote: Again, where is the question? You have made a statement that without TOT there would be no LCA mass production. If this is the official position of the MOD, and they are not satisfied with the deals they are negotiating then by all means carry out that "policy position". I am not aware whether such policy positions exist (LCA mass production contingent on F414 TOT), would love some clarification though!!

The only question in your posts was asking me to show TOT in engines to which I replied with " there hasn't been"
Question 1: Is US/ EU ready to tot engine for LCA and Arjun? (We are ready to pay the price name it)

Is US ready for F404 or F414 ToT to India?

Question 2: So if US/EU has not confirmed on tot for engine of LCA and Arjun, than why do have 10000 pages of BR blaming IA /IAF/ DRDO?

Answer 2: Because US/EU wnat it to be alive, am i wrong?

Question 3: How can LAC be mass produced without engine TOT by US? (engine ke bina kya hoga LCA ka?)

Question 4: How can Arjun Be mass produced without engine TOT by EU? (app ko rakhege kya engine ke jhega?)
Last edited by d_berwal on 08 Jun 2015 23:37, edited 1 time in total.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

Is US/ EU ready to tot engine for LCA and Arjun? (We are ready to pay the price name it)
Thats something that is negotiated between the parties concerned (2 nation states and the respective OEM). Its not as simple as YES or NO. Same applies to PAKFA TOT or even industrial share. Its not black and white but something that you negotiate with the parties concerned and there is a back and forth involved. The same is true for M88 engine, EJ200 engine, or even RD33 engine if that is the road ADA/HAL or the MOD wants to take.
Is US ready for F404 or F414 ToT to India?
GE F404 sale has already taken place and F414 for MKII was down-selected. Can you provide me a government document stating which Technology transfer was sought from these two engine deals, and also what the official position is when it comes to technology transfer for future orders of GE F414-400 and/or Enhanced engines?

I am afraid the questions and issues you are raising do not have a simple Y or N answer, and neither does the cost equation. The Indian MOD isn't going to go to GE and say, here is a blank cheque we want XYZ. There is a deal negotiated where you begin negotiating with what you desire and then look to find a common ground. If a common ground cannot be reached you ditch the deal and look elsewhere. That is why there has been other proposals sent out to other engine OEM's for the AMCA and not just a sole source to GE.
d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by d_berwal »

@ Brar_w

well US/EU tales 20-30 years for engine TOT negotiation till then what should India do?

How many GE F404 have arrived in India? and the time take per engine per year to arrive in INdia?

LOL see BFR now we have Brar_w saying engine TOT to india ne manga he nahi :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

well US/EU tales 20-30 years for engine TOT negotiation till then what should India do?
Do a TOT on Russian engines if they are equally good at the job. The LCA MKII can switch from GE F414 to RD33 if HAL/AD and IAF are satisfied with that performance. Not very imformed on that particular engine but some here could shed some more light. The Chinese are doing that for the J-31.
How many GE F404 have arrived in India? and the time take per engine per year to arrive in India?
The RATE of F404's arrival into India is a function of the contract agreed to by the Indian MOD with GE. The engines you get are as per the delivery timeline you negotiate with the supplier and there are penalties for not meeting those written commitments.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ge- ... nes-03044/
and the time take per engine per year to arrive in India?
The engines as mentioned are negotiated as per the delivery schedule demanded. I am sure others more familiar with GE or the F404 deal can give you better delivery timelines, but from what I know even the initial F414's are expected to arrive by next year for the MKII.

Common sense would dictate that HAL would require an engine delivery timeline that matches closely with its aircraft production timeline so that it does not slow down the ultimate deliveries to the customer. You do not want to pay for more engines in a given year than you can physically put into aircrafts either on the production floor or out for delivery. At the same time you also do not want aircraft to be waiting on the factory floor and have engine deliveries slow down their progress towards completion. This is how each and every airframe manufacturer in the world contracts its engines and HAL would be no different.
LOL see BFR now we have Brar_w saying engine TOT to india ne manga he nahi
What I am asking is some source that talks about the TOT sought for the GE F404 and F414 deals. I haven't come across any document that lays that out, but I am sure you can provide it to me. You seem to have knowledge of that TOT, so please show me what the TOT was demanded as per that deal.
Last edited by brar_w on 09 Jun 2015 02:12, edited 2 times in total.
d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by d_berwal »

@ brar_w

why was LCA sanctioned by US and deliberately made to suffer in turn hurting Indian National Interest.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 29%29.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... lca-38874/ (infact US also delayed ALH DHRUV induction and development)
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1603/16031020.htm
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 041_1.html
http://icast.org.in/news/2005/apr05/apr29a1.html (How we overcame U.S. sanctions)
d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by d_berwal »

there is so much similarity in thoughts of brar_w and Broadsword that it make me wonder how Gullible one is in such forums. (just my thought)

does anyone else see the length b---_w is gonna go to prove India never demanded TOT or production of GE engines.

LCA is ready but NO ENGINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats the real reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you wanna believe it or not!!!!!!!
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

why was LCA sanctioned by US and deliberately made to suffer in turn hurting Indian National Interest
The reason is well known and understood and is a matter of historical fact. What is happening at the moment is something that has occurred since then when India purchased the GE F404, and further selected the more powerful F414 for the LCA MK II, and opened talks with GE for an enhanced version of that engine for the AMCA .

However what I was debating here was the issue with the GE F404, and GE F414 engines for the LCA MKI and MKII. You made a statement (or asked a question), where you claimed "How can LAC be mass produced without engine TOT by US? (engine ke bina kya hoga LCA ka?)" to which I pointed out that the GE F404 deals have been inked and the GE F414 selection and subsequent procurement decision for 99 or 100 engines already made. How is that compatible with what you have just said ?
How can LAC be mass produced without engine TOT by US? (engine ke bina kya hoga LCA ka?)
Is that a position of the Indian MOD, or is that your own view on the matter? -That, if 100% technology for the engine is not transferred then the LCA mass-production cannot proceed? I ask again, is that your own personal belief or a defined and explicitly stated position of the MOD??

I also await to exact nature of the technology transfer sought from the GE F404 and F414 deals that was a precondition to the LCA ramp in production.
there is so much similarity in thoughts of brar_w and Broadsword that it make me wonder how Gullible one is in such forums. (just my thought)
Conspiracy theories aside if you read my first respond of the BI article I was making fun of the article that claimed Bill Gates (as opposed to Bob Gates) was the US SecDef prior to Hagel.

My own personal opinion on the entire LCA-Engine choice is to be clear with what is wanted. If you want technology seek it, define it and see who shows up with what offer. If you want pure engines stick with pure engines. If you want a mix of both, then look to negotiate from a position of strength and that position of strength would come from a confirmed large order. These parameters do not change whether you negotiate with the Russians, French, EoroJet teams or RR.

If you want 100% TOT on an advanced high T2W engine for the AMCA make that a requirement and have it in writing just as it was in writing for the MMRCA.
does anyone else see the length b---_w is gonna go to prove India never demanded TOT or production of GE engines.

On the contrary, I am not aware of the extent of TOT demanded. I am looking for that information. You clearly have it but are not willing to share it. I hope someone else posts it so that we can all read about it.
LCA is ready but NO ENGINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats the real reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you wanna believe it or not!!!!!!!
I am afraid the facts do not support that. India has ordered both the GE F404 engines for the first squadrons, and follow on engines for the MK II versions. There is no case of LCAs sitting at a ramp waiting for engines which are stuck and not being delivered due to TOT issues. At least I am not aware of them.
Last edited by brar_w on 09 Jun 2015 01:44, edited 1 time in total.
d_berwal
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 14:08
Location: Jhonesburg

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by d_berwal »

@ brar_w

bhai kitne paise liye hai?

Engine dena nahi but angeragy me ghamota rahoo...? app to tiyee ho hum nahi hai!!!

kuch be ho jaye hum to nahi bikage!!!

app apna US jagran gari rakho!!! (rest is for BRF to understand)
Last edited by Jagan on 12 Jun 2015 04:24, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: User got banned for bribery allegations
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

bhai kitne paise liye hai?
WOW, is that going to be your argument now? Not sure whether that sort of argument is considered valid by the mods.
Engine dena nahi but angeragy me ghamota rahoo...? app to tiyee ho hum nahi hai!!!
That is also no argument. What does ENGINE DENA NAHI mean exactly? Has the engine supply been held up? Care to provide proof of that? Has GE violated its contractual deliveries for the engines? I am asking this because I am not aware of them having happened so if you are I look forward to reading about it.

Please provide some material in support of the fact that despite the contracts for the GE F404 having been supplied, engine deliveries are not going to come as per the schedule agreed by the two parties.

My position is not blindly supporting the GE engine. If there is a hard stop at TOT, meaning no 100% TOT no engine, then by all means reject all those engines that do not come with 100% TOT, or that come with 100% TOT at a price that is not agreeable. Was that a policy for the GE F404, and F414 deals for the LCA, and if so, please instead of accusing me of XYZ just provide evidence of that. I think most here will agree that it will be a lot easier if you simply provided that information.

Looking into the future, if 100% TOT is demanded and GE is unable to agree to that, reject the GE Engine and look for a party that satisfies the MOD's demands both technically, from a TOT angle and form a cost perspective. Thats my opinion on the matter and that is most likely why the MOD has kept channels open with multiple engine suppliers for the AMCA engine just as the EJ200 and GEF414 were shortlisted when the latter was selected for the MKII.

Again, don't just blindly order GE, or EJ or RD, order them if they suite the needs, meet the technology transfer/ offset, or make in India plan and if they do not reject them outright. If all do, select the best engine from a cost-capability stand point.

We can continue this back and forth but it would be so much simpler if you just provided the information to substantiate your claims about " LCA WAITING ENGINE" and the official position of the indian MOD on NO TOT means NO LCA MASS PRODUCTION. That would end the argument right there and would prove your points without any doubt.
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5778
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by SBajwa »

Mods!! Please do the needy with this troll.

thanks
Sandeep
srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2524
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by srin »

Let me add a thought that is atleast related to this thread :)

The F414 or EJ200 are the first in mind when we talk about gas turbine engines. But there is one more where we need our own local manufacture - LM2500. It powers the IAC and the P17s. Standardizing on an engine that is made locally would be wonderful to not rely on Ukraine's Zorya engines, now that Ukraine is in complete shambles.
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Austin »

CG Do-228 Disappeared with 3 on board , Search and Rescue ongoing
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12266
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Pratyush »

This is the 2nd one in the last few months.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

This LCA farce is really beyond comprehension.If the first engine,414 is only going to come next year,when will the MK-2 prototype roll out? What on earth has HAL been doing ever since the IAF plaved orders (reluctantly) for 40 MK-1s ,which do not meet their requirements?

Anyway,that debate can go on in the LCA td.

Someone wanted confirmation about MIG-29Ks at Vizag.They've been operating from there since 2013. This site has some sat pics. The IN has earlier said that it will operate 3 sqds. at Karwar,Vizag and Dab-Goa (trg),where the shore-based ski-jump facility is located. Given the condition of the Dab runway (which has to be repaired every year for some reason),supposedly responsible for engine grit intake, it perhaps would be better to move the trg. facility out of Goa,perhaps also at Karwar or perhaps Cochin,if that runway is long enough.

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/06 ... vizag.html
Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Cosmo_R »

srin wrote:Let me add a thought that is atleast related to this thread :)

The F414 or EJ200 are the first in mind when we talk about gas turbine engines. But there is one more where we need our own local manufacture - LM2500. It powers the IAC and the P17s. Standardizing on an engine that is made locally would be wonderful to not rely on Ukraine's Zorya engines, now that Ukraine is in complete shambles.
+1.

Makes too much sense though.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

Philip wrote: Someone wanted confirmation about MIG-29Ks at Vizag.They've been operating from there since 2013. This site has some sat pics. The IN has earlier said that it will operate 3 sqds. at Karwar,Vizag and Dab-Goa (trg),where the shore-based ski-jump facility is located. Given the condition of the Dab runway (which has to be repaired every year for some reason),supposedly responsible for engine grit intake, it perhaps would be better to move the trg. facility out of Goa,perhaps also at Karwar or perhaps Cochin,if that runway is long enough.

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/06 ... vizag.html
Quoting the article
The latest space snapshots acquired by the commercial satellite firm DigitalGlobe show eleven of the carrier-based aircraft parked on the south apron of the airbase at Vizag. It appears the aircraft arrived since previous imagery was taken in March. Two Hawk Mk 132 trainer and a new aircraft hangar (under construction) were also visible on imagery at the time of capture
April, May, June 10. Of 2015. :rotfl:

Them IN. Buggers. So late.



BTW, if we want to be serious about info (as opposed to FUD) on BR, here is another article:

MiG-29K Looking at a Bigger Role in the Indian Navy
The Navy established the first squadron, the 303 Squadron also called “Black Panthers” at the INS Hansa in Goa in May 2013 and since then has been steadily increasing carrier based operations abroad the INS Vikramaditya
The sequence seems to be Hansa, Vikram and then Degha.

Per this article, IN has got 23 MiG-29Ks. And, I recall another article stating that of those some 13 are "certified" (I assume for Vikram?). So, I am betting that these 11 seen in the DigitalGlobe picture are from Hansa. ?????

added l8r:

That 23 should be 33. Must be a typo.
sohamn
BRFite
Posts: 461
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 12:56
Location: the Queen of the Angels of Porziuncola
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by sohamn »

d_berwal wrote:@ brar_w

bhai kitne paise liye hai?

Engine dena nahi but angeragy me ghamota rahoo...? app to tiyee ho hum nahi hai!!!

kuch be ho jaye hum to nahi bikage!!!

app apna US jagran gari rakho!!! (rest is for BRF to understand)


d_berwal - you please stop this nonsense. If you don't have facts then don't argue. Your silly rants are intolerable. In BR if you want to engage in a conversation please first educate yourself in defense matters and then place your arguments.
JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7127
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by JE Menon »

d_berwal has been disciplined
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

Pratyush wrote:This is the 2nd one in the last few months.
could be undetected structural fatigue or some problem in fuel system/fuel taking both engines out.

deserves a very serious investigation of the entire fleet.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

The aircraft as I said have been operating /using the Dega facilities from late 2013,I watched them myself.Commercial space sats do not have constant surveillance .Anyway,"none so blind as those who will not see".The IN's 3 sqd. ambitions are also official.So I don't understand what the nitpicking is all about.Is anyone unhappy that we are going to have 3 MIG-29K sqds for the IN?

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/06 ... vizag.html#
The latest space snapshots acquired by the commercial satellite firm DigitalGlobe show eleven of the carrier-based aircraft parked on the south apron of the airbase at Vizag. It appears the aircraft arrived since previous imagery was taken in March. Two Hawk Mk 132 trainer and a new aircraft hangar (under construction) were also visible on imagery at the time of capture.

For the past few years India has been talking about putting a MIG-29K squadron at Vizag’s naval air station, INS Dega. Vizag is home to India’s Eastern Naval Command and its strategically important nuclear submarines.

The Navy has said it will establish up to three squadrons flying the Russian-built platform, one for each of its flanks and another for training. Its first squadron, INAS 303 aka the “Black Panthers,” was already stood-up at Goa-based INS Hansa in 2013 — three years after India began taking delivery of the aircraft. The squadron, comprised of 12 fighters, is led by veteran Sea Harrier pilot Captain A.D. Theophilus.

Deploying the MIG-29K at INS Dega suggests that India is preparing to announce the formation of its second squadron of the multi-role fighters. It also underscores the further importance of the airbase which already supports maritime surveillance and anti-submarine warfare aircraft. Now India appears to be taking the next step in plans to support aircraft aboard a future carrier, its first subordinate to its Eastern Naval Command.

However, it should be noted that those plans are still over three years away. INS Vikrant, India’s second carrier to sport the aircraft, won’t be ready for operation until December 2018 — if then. In late May, the carrier missed it’s undocking date due to “unfavorable conditions” — a development not surprising given India’s shipbuilding record. In fact, the boat is already four years behind schedule.

In the meantime, India expects delivery of 12 more MIG-29K from Russia during the 2015-2016 period. According to SIPRI’s arms trade database, India’s total MIG-29K numbers should reach 45 aircraft after final delivery. Future numbers should be interesting to watch given India and the US announced the development of an aircraft carrier working group. If the US and India agree on some type of technology sharing for India’s second homegrown carrier, it’s likely the South Asian country will move closer to the US and by extension acquire US-built fighters.

Beyond the Indian Navy’s newer MIG-29Ks, the Indian Air Force also flies 66 older MIG-29s. Those aircraft are being upgraded to MIG-29UPG (MIG-29SMT) variant by Russia.
PS:The sqd. number has already been given in the IN's own website. No.533.

The loss of another CG Dornier is truly tragic. media reports peak of fishermen seeing an "explosion/burning debris" falling from the sky approx. 40km off Pondicherry. One report mentioned alleged poor maintenance of aircraft. We'll have to wait for some time until the wreckage is recovered,etc. to find out what went wrong. It appears to have been a sudden problem as there was no commns. from the crew. Since the Dornier's are also unarmed,it is an intriguing incident.
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by pankajs »

Sitanshu Kar ‏@SpokespersonMoD 4m4 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi

#INSVikrant A milestone crossed in def shipbuilding; IAC INS Vikrant undocked on completion of structural work at CSL
Image
Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:The aircraft as I said have been operating /using the Dega facilities from late 2013,I watched them myself.Commercial space sats do not have constant surveillance .Anyway,"none so blind as those who will not see".The IN's 3 sqd. ambitions are also official.So I don't understand what the nitpicking is all about.Is anyone unhappy that we are going to have 3 MIG-29K sqds for the IN?
'Ambition' implies its something may or may not materialize, in this case supplementary MiG-29K orders. Which is where you're mistaken - its the same 45 aircraft already ordered that are being organized into three squadrons. The existing force structure will be retained; our 30 Harriers (at peak strength) were distributed into two squadrons. No additional purchases of MiG-29Ks are planned.

(The only source saying otherwise is the Ambassador to Russia who, despite his position, isn't exactly a reliable source when it comes to military issues.)
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

Great pic of the Vikrant! I do agree,there is little point in acquiring more 29Ks until we have two carriers operational.However,if as I advocate,the IN is given a larger role in coastal/island air defence,lessening the IAF's load (short in numbers and capability),where their high performance aircraft could be switched to the Sino-Paki borders,more MIG-29Ks land based which will also mean more reserves for the carriers,would be cheaper to acquire and operate than say MKIs. This of course is a major strategic and doctrinal decision,but when it was mooted earlier quite a few on the forum saw it as a positive idea.

If another Vikrant class carrier is acquired,as CSL have attractively offered within 4 years,more 29Ks (upgraded with AESA,TVC,etc) would be the best option,greater commonality,etc. However,if the next carrier is going to be a larger 65K t beast,then there are a lot of decisions that must synchronise ,launch system which gives aircraft options,if EMALS N-propulsion a definite requirement.This would demand a suitable N-reactor design for the same and where will it come from? If the US is willing,then great! Given that the timeframe given out is sometime midway into the next decade, it is too early to choose the aircraft.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

Typing from a phone, thus being brief.

Nitpicking because of the original topic is lost: 30 MiG-29K engines were bad. Only one poster brought up Dabolim, then Sega, etc. Typical FUD.

Who would be unhappy? That is easy. The IN. 30 bad engines should keep them unhappy for a long time.

BTW, the 45 are the 3 sqds.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

30 MiG-29K engines were bad.
Got a source for that? Were these the latest 'smokeless' RD's?
Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Bade »

Just as mentioned earlier it will be on the North side of the current drydock where there is plenty of space to build a couple of them even.
Consultant for shipyard’s new dry dock by August
The site of the new dry dock is in the north estate of the yard campus.

“We will issue the tender anytime now with the aim of appointing a consultant to start working on the DPR by August,” sources said.

The new dry dock, nearly 300-m long and 75-m wide and expected to cost approximately Rs. 1,300 crore, is being put in place to accelerate the yard’s growth in the coming decades. The effort is to operationalise it in three-and-a-half years, by which time the Navy will have floated the tender for its second indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vishal, which is believed to have a displacement of 65,000 tonnes.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

When the very paper that published the news of engine problems later reported that it was traced to the poor condition of the Dab runway,where grit was responsible,not due to any engine defect,I don't understand why some want to demonise anything Russian ,like the current US administration!
Anyway,who cares as long as the 3 services are satisfied with what they've acquired.In the ultimate analysis,that is what matters. Both the IN and IAF are happy with their MIG-29s as far as we know. A Hawk crashed,another Dornier crashed,one doesn't see the same individual howling about the origin/manufacture of these birds,because they aren't Russian?! Incidentally both were manufactured at home.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

India needs long term solution in procuring defence systems
US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter's visit to India in June for talks on the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative has been preceded by a series of recommendations by Mr Ashley J Tellis, published by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. The paper, titled, Making Waves: Aiding India's Next Generation Aircraft Carrier, recommends that India-US bilateral cooperation will enable India's second indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vishal and its air wing to counter an emerging Chinese naval threat in the Indian Ocean. Does India face a credible enough Chinese threat, warranting a build-up of aircraft carrier capabilities? Do we need to be more imaginative in our procurement to enable our Armed Forces?

Mr Tellis makes a compelling case for the Indian Navy to adopt a catapult-assisted take-off but arrested recovery system in the form of the electromagnetic aircraft launch system or EMALS, to increase its capacity to launch high performance aircraft and do so more frequently. This will enhance INS Vishal's operational capabilities from the Indian Navy's current short take-off but arrested recovery, also known as STOBAR, carrier capability, where aircraft have to take off on their own power. Naval aircraft taking off on their own power from limited flight decks use more fuel, thus limiting their range and ability to carry less ordnance as compensation. Is it a performance limitation? Yes. This limitation, however, has to be contextualised against the Chinese threat and capabilities of India's competitors and not simply against operational benchmarks set by US Navy aircraft carriers.

Threats faced in the Indian Ocean: China currently fields one ex-Soviet Kuznetsov class aircraft carrier, christened Liaoning, capable of STOBAR operations. The carrier has seen little by way of operations, apart from testing Chinese carrier borne fighter aircraft in the form of the Shenyang J-15 which is a spin-off of the Russian Sukhoi-27 Flanker. The aircraft's capabilities are limited in range and armament due to the limits of STOBAR operations. Future Chinese aircraft carriers are expected to field a similar configuration and aircraft. While one can play into the paranoia of Chinese aircraft carrier groups operating in the Indian Ocean, it is important to note that China is several years away from an operational carrier.

While Chinese carrier groups operating in the Indian Ocean may be a distant possibility, Chinese warships and submarines are a reality that the Indian Navy has to contend with. Chinese nuclear submarines are beginning to make forays into the region, and if media reports are to be believed, China is looking to set up access points and replenishment bases in the region over the next 10 years. The Indian Navy's anti-submarine warfare or ASW capability is woefully under-prepared to deal with underwater threats posed by the Chinese. Its warships are short of ASW helicopters and have, of late, taken to sailing without their requisite air complements.

Some ships are also sailing without critical sensors used to detect submarines — which the Government has only recently agreed to purchase from abroad — resulting in warships sailing blind to submarines. The threats faced by the Indian Navy are further compounded by the Pakistani acquisition of three French Agosta 90B submarines and the future induction of a further eight Chinese built S-20 submarines.

Using a bit of imagination to enhance the Indian Navy's combat capabilities: Mr Tellis recommends India acquire the EMALS and associated Lockheed Martin F-35 strike fighters and Northrop Grumman E-2C airborne early warning aircraft. But acquiring a completely different air wing and aircraft carrier type will increase the cost, in the form of maintenance, acquisition of spares, but also that of training two different sets of pilots and maintenance crews.

The carrier-optimised Mig-29K the Indian Navy is using aboard the INS Vikramaditya is a capable aircraft and cheap to boot, with 45 units costing a little over two billion dollars. The key will be acquiring systems and technologies to enhance its capabilities and operational availability.

Instead of acquiring new aircraft and its launching systems to overcome limitations placed of range and armament the Mig-29K is plagued with, the Navy could simply acquire a carrier borne aerial refuelling platform. Not only will it help extend the range of the Mig-29K but also increase its operational availability as some of them will not have to be used as aerial refuelling platforms.

The same aircraft can be used in US parlance in the carrier onboard delivery transport and specials operations role. The Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey fits into both these roles seamlessly as has been proven by the US Navy and Marine Corps. The fact that the aircraft can land like a helicopter, negates the necessity of a catapult launch system required for aircraft of similar size. The Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey could also potentially be developed into an airborne early warning system again precluding the need to acquire catapult launch systems.

There exists potential for co-operation between India and the US in naval aviation, it does not necessarily have to be in aircraft carrier technology and naval fighter aircraft. The US could help India with its chronic shortage of multi-role naval helicopters; cater to its expanding requirement for maritime patrol aircraft and provide India with a carrier borne tanker/transport aircraft expanding its operational capabilities.

India needs to be imaginative in acquiring systems which enhance its capabilities while fitting into its long term procurement plans. Acquiring new aircraft and ships to fulfil each technical or performance need in isolation is not a long term or affordable solution. Procurements need to cater to inter-operable and integrated war fighting capabilities, which not only increases its war fighting ability but also improve affordability by reducing acquisition, operating, integration and training costs
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

Data point:

Russia Ready to Send More MiG-29K Fighters to India
If India's Ministry of Defense decides to increase its MiG-29K/KUB fleet, the design bureau will be able to complete this order, Korotkov added. India's first squadron, comprising of 12 MiG-29K/KUB fighter jets, was established in 2013.
1) Sqd = 12 planes
2) First sqd formed in 2013


3) India has received 33 MiG-29K, not complete for 3 sqds yet
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18394
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Rakesh »

Rules for Indian Naval Combat Ships Published
http://www.marinelink.com/news/publishe ... 92826.aspx
Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:When the very paper that published the news of engine problems later reported that it was traced to the poor condition of the Dab runway,where grit was responsible,not due to any engine defect,I don't understand why some want to demonise anything Russian ,like the current US administration!

Anyway,who cares as long as the 3 services are satisfied with what they've acquired.In the ultimate analysis,that is what matters. Both the IN and IAF are happy with their MIG-29s as far as we know. A Hawk crashed,another Dornier crashed,one doesn't see the same individual howling about the origin/manufacture of these birds,because they aren't Russian?! Incidentally both were manufactured at home.
Maybe because all the Boeings and Airbuses landing at Dabolim are able to take off again without blowing an engine, despite the absence of any FOD protection (unlike the MiG-29K). And one might have been inclined to be charitable in this case, if not for the fact that the IAF's Al-31s have also been conking off at an impressive rate (35 engine failures last year).

Include all of the R-25, R-29 and legacy R-33 failures, and you're left with less a pattern and more a tradition.
Last edited by Viv S on 12 Jun 2015 06:25, edited 1 time in total.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

Motherland has only one news paper. When another reports that 30 engines had problems it does not matter. IN took all the 30 for a tour in Dabo.

Throw in Obama, Putin and a few other unrelated items and boom, dega gets a sqd in 2013.

And then wonder why people are complaining when someone says the sun rises from the south.
member_28233
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 16
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by member_28233 »

India bought a floating turd and paid Russia $2.3 Billion to polish it.

An AC is defined by its air wing. So, if India wishes to build more of the Vikrant class, it should work with France to have the Rafale-M ski-jump qualified, if it is not already. There is no point spending billions on a carrier if the tip of the spear aircraft you plan to fly off it are the unreliably engined MiG-29K.

India cannot afford to throw good money after bad and invest in more Russian "carrier" tech.
Locked