IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 May 2016 10:55

Look,When the US backs a country,it does so on many fronts.Open official "developmental" aid,military subsidies/aid from which the lucky nation can draw upon depending upon its needs. From time to time it also gets "gifts",with which to counter its neighbours,like the Pakis getting Harpoon missiles,P-3 Orions,etc. ostensibly to fight the Taliban navy!

But what is the most important aid is that which is handed over "under" the table.This is usually a very sizeable amount,which in the case of the Pakis has for decades been used to fatten the bank accounts of the general staff,the ISI,et al. It is used for discreet procurement of arms used by covert forces aka terrorists against the perceived enemy-in the Paki case India. Even more wounding is the diplomatic and political support the nation gets when a blind eye is turned towards selective terror (against India) and nuclear proliferation.

But this is the Raffy td. So what's new with the climb to the summit? Will the joint Indo-French team of mountaineers climb Mt.Rafale or will they fall off the mountain?

Namo's impending visit is why the sudden halt on subsidising the F-16 deal. Once he returns from DC,you can bet your last dollar that Hussein O'Bomber will through sleight of hand hand over the aircraft to the Pakis at the subsidized rate.

Will · Post by **Will** » 05 May 2016 12:22

Karan M wrote:Why? If US aid continues to TSP elsewhere it frees up funds to put in F-16.
Seems like a dog and pony show for public/Indian consumption.

India seriously needs to not fall into the US trap. The US has no friends. Its better to go with the Europeans if one needs tech.

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 05 May 2016 13:43

News on CNN News 18 showing that the GoI is reviewing the Rafale and Pilatus deals.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 May 2016 13:55

Poor Pilatus! This trainer is acclaimed the world over as the best basic trainer and the PC-21 as a trainer that can simulate a jet/fighter types and avoid the need for an IJT.For sev years the IAF was pleading for a new BT as the HAL bird kept crashing and killing pilots.. Finally in desperation the IAF acquired sev dozen PC-7s to stem the rot. Even now,after the PC-7 has been inducted in large number the new HAL BT has yet to fly.It has just been unveiled with a couple of years of flight testing to be completed. From some BRF posts this has definitely helped improved pilot training. Ideally the MOD should order more of the type for cost-effectiveness. For future requirements the HAL BT once certified could meet the extra demand from the IN and air wing of the IA. Unless the GOI has discovered some hard evidence of hanky-panky with the execution of the deal,kickbacks whatever,it should proceed with more PC-7s.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 05 May 2016 15:52

India’s Rafale Deal Hits Another Snag

NEW DELHI — India and France’s long-gestating deal to buy 36 Dassault Rafale fighters may have run into another hurdle, this time in the form of objections from India’s law ministry.
A Law Ministry official says the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) has several loopholes in its liability clause and in other matters such as material breach, bank guarantee and arbitration, and the agreement doesn’t serve the interests of India. “We have suggested that unless there is a joint-and-several liability clause, India’s interests would remain compromised,” the official says.

“The Ministry of Law & Justice has made certain observations and the same will be adequately taken into account while finalizing the Inter-Governmental Agreement [IGA], which is still under negotiations,” Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said in the Upper house of Parliament May 3.

The Law Ministry is concerned about a clause in the agreement that says in the event of a breach of supply requirements by the French companies, the Indian side must first pursue a legal recourse against the companies without involving the French government.

India and France have been negotiating the financial structure of the government-to-government Rafale purchase from Dassault Aviation since India Prime Minister Narendra Modi last year announced New Delhi’s decision to buy the 36 aircraft.

Parrikar also clarified that the negotiations on the terms and conditions of the contract, including total cost, actual delivery time lines and guarantee period, have not been concluded.

The cost for the 36 jets, based on the original Request For Proposal price (while taking into account foreign exchange rates and other factors), comes to around 650 billion rupees ($9.7 billion). India wants to negotiate the price down to about 590 billion rupees.

India wants to buy the Rafale jets in flyaway condition “as quickly as possible” in view of the Indian air force’s critical operational necessity for multirole combat aircraft.

French President Francois Hollande and Modi asserted during Hollande’s visit to India in January that the deal would be finalized soon. “Only financial aspects of the Rafale deal is left. The intergovernmental agreement has been finalized. It will be done soon,” Modi said at the time.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 05 May 2016 17:21

BharadwajV wrote:News on CNN News 18 showing that the GoI is reviewing the Rafale and Pilatus deals.

"Narendra Modi government has decided to up the ante by initiating investigation into all the defence deals finalised by the previous UPA government, including the high-profile Rafale jets."

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/afte ... 59860.html

If true, the deal is as good as dead. They can't imply corruption in the deal and at the same time go ahead with it.

The moon in June in DC

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 05 May 2016 17:43

I don't think that it'll die. The current rafale deal is more G2G even though probably not a pure G2G type (FMS+Commericlal like deal) but since it was initiated by the current government it would have naturally addressed its concerns. The emphasis of the investigation will obviously be on the now DEAD MMRCA deal/tender.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 05 May 2016 17:46

brar_w wrote:I don't think that it'll die. The current rafale deal is more G2G even though probably not a pure G2G type (FMS+Commericlal like deal) but since it was initiated by the current government it would have naturally addressed its concernes, the emphasis of the investigation will obviously be on the now DEAD MMRCA deal/tender.

Once it gets put in the same basket as the AW deal, the opposition will muddy the issue and dare the NDA to go ahead--it will suit their narrative. All sane arguments can distinguish between the G2G deal for 36 but Indian political discourse in parliament is not based on sane arguments. It's DOA if the report is true.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 May 2016 18:26

The question probably is to find out what went on during the contract negotiations for the previous 126 aircraft deal.
Why are the terms significantly different now?
I am pretty sure, all defence deals during the congoons time are corrupt. GoI is not raking up the Scorpene deal because those subs are sorely needed and the first sub just hit the water. But all these deals stink like hell!
Prices went through the roof in all of them. In the Augusta Westland deal, while the number went up from 8 to 12, the price went up 5x !
Congoons wanted gold plated stuff, and were prepared to pay top dollar for it with their own fat commissions factored in. And all the while screwing up the economy and security of the nation!

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 06 May 2016 18:57

Watched the Raksha Mantri's rebuttal in the parliament today and felt happy that the person is serious and well informed.
He also told the house that the a file room misteriously caught fire, a week after the NDA was voted in to power, but fortunately a bureaucrat had saved the three AW-101 files in his desk drawer.
He also was clear in stating that we cannot stop procuring certain equipment from Finnmeccanica as they were OEM to various products in use. Eg:The Naval gun(Oto Melara 76mm SRGM?) in use with many frontline Warships.
He also mentioned the Westland-Pawan Hans saga and how the Britshit government played a key role in selling these technically unsound choppers to Pawan Hans.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 May 2016 18:59

banning foreign companies is pointless. if someone asks for a 'consulting fee' the firm will pay it
the point is to stop people asking for it

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 06 May 2016 21:50

Lalmohan wrote:banning foreign companies is pointless. if someone asks for a 'consulting fee' the firm will pay it
the point is to stop people asking for it

Make individuals at these companies liable for criminal acts. Don't ban the companies--fine them. The US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act is a good template.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 06 May 2016 21:54

[youtube]watch?v=ECtR8U0-wc0&feature=youtu.be&t=1220[/youtube]

Must watch for ~2 min from 20:20 to 22:40. Its very funny. MP says the earlier planted press story on rafale deal being done made him doubt whether deal was already done and was so convincing even BJP IT cell was sold on it. He also says that if the deal gets done it will be less than what UPA had negotiated.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 07 May 2016 02:56

RMji statement explains the body language of French President during his visit to India.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 May 2016 17:17

Remember OIS gentle beebuls of BRF. That which we had showed had such awesome development capability (especially shri sagarg)

Now..

rohitvats wrote:I think this was missed:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/inc ... Qlr8I.html

Posting in full:
Income tax officials have searched 18 premises used by a defence dealer who is on the radar of the government over the unusually high growth of his business in recent years.

The dealer, Sanjay Bhandari, who set up his flagship company Offset India Solutions (OIS) in 2008 with a paid-up capital of Rs 1 lakh, is now at the helm of a multi-crore group comprising at least seven firms that offer defence consultancy and liaison services. One of these companies, OIS-Advanced Technology, recently signed a joint venture agreement with French defence manufacturer Rafaut to supply components for 38 combat aircraft India is buying from Dassault Aviation.

No details were immediately available on the searches carried out by the directorate general of income tax investigation on Wednesday, but a Hindustan Times investigation has found that Bhandari received Rs 69.38 crore from 35 shell companies between 2009 and 2014.

When the NDA government took over in May 2014, it sought a report from the Intelligence Bureau (IB) about Bhandari’s dealings. The bureau filed its report in July 2014, alleging OIS was engaged by Swiss firm Pilatus for a controversial Rs 4,000-crore basic trainer aircraft deal.

In January 2015, defence ministry’s finance wing red-flagged the deal for its “in-built flaws”.

The South Korean government in 2012 had lodged an official protest with the defence ministry over the selection of Pilatus as the “lowest bidder”. Korea Aerospace Industries, Kai, was in the race for the same contract. Bhandari received 1 million Swiss francs in 2012 from an undisclosed source, according to filings with the registrar of companies (RoC).

HT investigation has found that Sanjay Bhandari’s Offset India Solutions (OIS) received one million Swiss franc (CHF) from Pilatus Flugzeugwerke AG- SPA. OIS’ Standard Chartered bank account no: 52105058250 received this amount in two tranches -- 2,50,000 CHF on 25 August 2010 and 7,50,000 CHF on 6 October 2010. This was two years before Indian Air Force placed an order for 75 Basic Trainer Aircrafts for Rs 4000 crore in 2012.Neither Pilatus nor Bhandari responded to email queries and telephone calls.

The website of OIS describes it as “a liaison between the foreign entities, respective government ministries and the local industries for successful completion of projects”.

“Offset” in defence industry parlance means an agreement between a defence contractor and the buyer government to procure goods or services from the buyer country—in this case India.

The defence procurement policy 2006 made it mandatory for foreign defence firms to tie up with an Indian partner for 35% of total contract value. HT randomly picked out 10 of the 35 companies from which Bhandari’s group firms received payments and found that their office addresses listed with the registrar of companies (RoC) were fake.

The transactions started in August 2009 when one of Bhandari’s companies – SB Hospitality & Services Pvt Ltd – received Rs 1.6 crore in 13 tranches from two entities: Mystic Fashion Pvt Ltd and Jasmine Software Solutions registered in Delhi’s Laxmi Nagar and Shakarpur, respectively. Both addresses were found to be fake, a review of RoC filings and field visits show.

Two months later, on November 11, the same firm received Rs 1.2 crore from three companies, two registered in Rohini and a third, Amarjeet Motors Pvt Ltd, not listed with the RoC. In five years, SB Hospitality received Rs 31.67 crore from 35 entities. HT found multiple transactions on the same day – a known modus operandi of hawala operators who split amounts into small tranches to avoid detection by monitoring agencies.

Cash deposits were made into the accounts of fake companies and later transferred to companies of Bhandari, according to bank statements reviewed by HT. The investors in the seven group companies were the same.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 May 2016 17:34

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/defence- ... us-1403652

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar Indicates Probe Into Deal With Pilatus
All India | Indo-Asian News Service | Updated: May 06, 2016 23:01 IST

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar Indicates Probe Into Deal With Pilatus

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar also indicated there may have been corruption involved in the earlier deal for buying 136 Rafale jets from Dassault Aviations of France.

New Delhi: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today indicated a probe into the 2012 deal inked with the Swiss aircraft manufacturer Pilatus, but clarified the trainer aircraft from the firm already in service will not be grounded.

Responding to a calling attention motion on the AgustaWestland deal in the Lok Sabha, the minister mentioned the Pilatus deal and said there were "discussions" about it in 2012, the year the deal was sealed.

"There were a lot of discussions over Pilatus in 2012; when I came (to office), around 62 planes were already flying," Mr Parrikar said.

"I thought, if I raise it (the deal) now, the (Indian) air force (pilot) shortage, which has come to 164, would have gone up to 1,000," the minister said.

"Sometimes, you are under strain to continue even (if it is) not very healthy...." he said.

"I will investigate, but will not stop flying the aircraft," Mr Parrikar added.

The minister indicated there may have been corruption involved in the earlier deal for buying 136 Rafale jets from Dassault Aviations of France.

Mr Parrikar targeted Congress leader Jyotiraditya Scindia, saying he "took liberties with truth" by saying that the then United Progressive Alliance government was buying Rafale jets for $10 billion.

"First of all, the Rafale deal was not concluded. Their defence minister had kept it in writing that he was very scared that his (public) image will get tainted."

"So he wrote that L1 (lowest bidder) has been determined, negotiate and finalise the price and then come back to me to check whether this company is L1. He insured himself with this comment," Mr Parrikar said referring to the then defence minister AK Antony.

"He had this doubt that it is a 'corruption negotiation committee'. He must have gotten experience from Agusta (deal); so he wrote this on Rafale," the minister said.

According to informed sources, the Pilatus deal was under the Modi government's scanner as it got highlighted after income tax raids at a company that did liasoning for Pilatus.

India bought 75 PC-7 Mk II aircraft from Pilatus in 2012. The aircraft was chosen over American Beechcraft T-6C Texan II and the South Korean KT-1.

The sources said the South Korean government had then lodged an official protest with the defence ministry over the selection of Pilatus as the "lowest bidder".

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 May 2016 17:36

The French really overplayed their hand. Looks like they had a cosy arrangement with UPA sarkaar bigwigs after they won MMRCA to ask for whatever price they wanted as "additional" and hence their arrogance in refusing TOT to HAL, getting in friendly with oil baron...the list goes on.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 07 May 2016 20:20

Time has come to dump rafale. Its just not worth it. Reelection of Namo in 2019 is many times more important than procurement of rafales.

Till now, not a single scam has surfaced since Namo took over. This deal has all the potential to change the perception. Its worse than what kryptonite is to Superman.

Important Datapoint: Now that hon. Def Min has refuted any agreement on Rafale, the media group which first came up with the story that Rafale deal had been concluded, has in all likelihood been managed by Dassault. This is exactly how it happened in AW case. Those who have twitter accounts, please spread the word.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 07 May 2016 20:31

Looks like ndtv was one ofthe first if not the first to break the news of the so called "deal". No surprises there. And I used to wonder how exactly they were sustaining inspite of low trps.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafale-j ... ?site=full

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 08 May 2016 12:22

Has anybody wondered why do we need so many Pilatus? If utilization rate of HT-32 was 250 hours per annum, why is it still only 250 hours for Pilatus? Why not 1500 hrs? Whether similar under utilization is being done to increase demand for Hawks?

Hawk can provide "average" of 60 hours per month ie. two hours per day. This means a Single Hawk on "average" can train 12 pilots a year, as a trainee requires around 60 hours on an AJT. Hence with 200 pilots passing out per annum, we need around 200/12 = 16-20 Hawks. How come we have 115??

Similarly, assuming Pilatus can be used for around 1200 hours per annum ie roughly 3.2 hours per day. This means a Single Pilatus on "average" can train 20 pilots a year, as a trainee requires around 60 hours on an BT. Hence with 200 pilots passing out per annum, we need around 200/20 = 5-10 Pilatus. How come we want 200 BTs??

Is the requirement for these trainer aircraft being artificially inflated??

Note:- In Comparison Civil Jet Airliners can fly 10-15 hours per day, ie 300-500 hours per month and 3000-6000 hours per annum.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 08 May 2016 17:55

When we are signing such deals, do we make a provision that India weapons, mutition, subsystems or components wherever available or proven to be fitted on the main system like the Israelis, Russians do?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 08 May 2016 18:04

You have to pay for additional control or capability. You can either seek control of the mission systems to conduct integration and certification or pay the OEM to do it for you. Either way, it will obviously cost over and above the cost of the aircraft and support. It appears the IAF requested a new HMS, and a few weapons be integrated by Dassault and co on the Rafale.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 May 2016 10:14

An investigation into the huge cost of upgrading of a mere 40+ M-2000s for $2.5B ( around 50-60M for each) may be the key to unraveling the inner workings of the Rafale deal. Equal upgrades of 66+ MIG-29s cost just under $!B for the lot (just around $15M for each upgrade).This included new engines as well.The cost of upgrading just one M-2000 is far more than a brand new MIG-29K ($32M only) which the IN are acquiring in large number! The high cost of upgrades agreed upon before awarding the MMRCA winner perhaps allowed Dassault to reduce the price of the Rafale just below the EF,well knowing that they were making huge bucks on the upgrades.

member_28700 · Post by **member_28700** » 09 May 2016 10:59

Hawk can provide "average" of 60 hours per month ie. two hours per day. This means a Single Hawk on "average" can train 12 pilots a year, as a trainee requires around 60 hours on an AJT. Hence with 200 pilots passing out per annum, we need around 200/12 = 16-20 Hawks. How come we have 115??

Similarly, assuming Pilatus can be used for around 1200 hours per annum ie roughly 3.2 hours per day. This means a Single Pilatus on "average" can train 20 pilots a year, as a trainee requires around 60 hours on an BT. Hence with 200 pilots passing out per annum, we need around 200/20 = 5-10 Pilatus. How come we want 200 BTs??

16-20 Hawks and 5-10 Pilatus? Dont you think this number is a little too low?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 May 2016 20:51

We know from the #AugustaWestland scam that it starts at the requirements phase, where the politicians, babus and IAF high command fix them to chose the supplier. In case of Rafale, the ghotala was at requirments phase where they came up with super duper aircraft that only Rafale wins.

So who were in IAF that came up with the requirments? They probably went up the chain to ensure the buy and support even after.
Need to look back at the prime supporters of Rafale who were stull batting for it even after the French were welshing on the deal.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 May 2016 20:55

That Pilatus deal wasn't the NAK Browne gungho in putting down HAL and demanding instant inventory for it? And later became Ambassador to Norway or some such Scandal country?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 May 2016 22:12

We should start a twitter trend #RafaleLifafaCoterie
Can track the Babus, Netas, IAF, Media there.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 May 2016 09:49

As far as the BT requirement was concerned, it wasa an absolute necessity as HAL's BT kept crashing killing pilots. Crash investigations found many due to pilot error and the BT need was a fundamental requirement. Kirans were both obsolete and past their lifespan too. The replacement plan was I think 4-5 yrs late. It is also a fact that after the PC-7 induction training has improved and crashes down.

However,a probe is good thing as the IAF in particular has shown itself to be badly tainted with the Tyagi "familia" so hugely involved in the AW scam and the Rafale "no Plan-B" statements from the current chief. The MMRCA/Rafale acquisition/selection could be a massive ticking timebomb for the current regime.It has to act very cautiously and transparently in sealing the deal.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 11 May 2016 11:19

I think that Rs 1500 crore single vendor deal for Naval Guns was also a sweet heart deal. Can somebody dig out the details?

srin · Post by **srin** » 11 May 2016 19:35

ramana wrote:We know from the #AugustaWestland scam that it starts at the requirements phase, where the politicians, babus and IAF high command fix them to chose the supplier. In case of Rafale, the ghotala was at requirments phase where they came up with super duper aircraft that only Rafale wins.

So who were in IAF that came up with the requirments? They probably went up the chain to ensure the buy and support even after.
Need to look back at the prime supporters of Rafale who were stull batting for it even after the French were welshing on the deal.

The most suspicious thing about the Rafale purchase in hindsight was the decision to use lifecycle costs. That the IAF itself wasn't too sure about it was validated in the Stratpost MMRCA round table (Note to self: watch those videos again over weekend). Even after being declared L1, we had to negotiate the costs !

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 May 2016 22:51

Philip, Does the IAF also have a chain of succession plan like the one that the IA had which would have been disrupted if VK Singh got his original birth date accepted?

Please someone list all the IAF chiefs after ACM Tipnis.

Looks like lot of familia types rose to the top.

The most crucial meeting NaMo had was the one on one with ACM Raha before he changed the 126 plane deal.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 12 May 2016 06:43

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 230203.cms

€7.25-billion: France makes its ‘best’ price offer for 36 Rafale fighter jets

The Rafale fighter deal that has been stuck for the past several months on pricing issues is likely to move ahead with a new offer from Paris that could see India paying Euro 7.25 billion for 36 new jets.

The new offer from France is the lowest price being quoted for the Rafale fighters till now, though a weapons package is to be negotiated separately. Officials involved in the negotiations have told ET that the latest French offer came just over two weeks ago and could be the last price being offered for the Rafale fighter jets that are being procured by India under a government to government deal.

This is a substantial cut from the 8.8 billion Euro figure that was being quoted for the deal in BJP circles and was even advertised by its IT department as a major win for the Modi government.

Officials say that the negotiations will now only move forward after an Indian response to the offer. The two sides are also negotiating a five-year support package for the fighter jets, down from the ten-year package that was being discussed earlier. Sources say that the weapons package will be signed separately as has been the norm but the original requirement has been pruned.

This has been done as several weapons are common with the in service Mirage fighter fleet. On April 21, Parrikar had said that the Rafale deal is "in quite an advanced stage and we intend to close it quite soon". The deal has to be first approved by the defence ministry followed by which it would go for a go ahead by the Cabinet.

The offer for 7.25 billion euros for the 36 aircraft would also include an offset clause that would see French companies like Dassault and Thales investing in the Indian defence and security sector. France agreed to a 50 percent offset clause as a special case for India after the direct intervention of the Indian PMO, sources said. The investment of over 3 billion euros would be a boost for Indian defence and aerospace companies.

Several Indian companies are partnering with French companies for the offsets, including a plan to assemble aircraft parts and even a low cost executive jet in India.

Several aircraft technologies, including a special radar absorbing paint are likely to be transferred as well through the defence research and development organization.

Price cut, price cut, please buy...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 May 2016 07:09

Now they have switched to Euro? That is some 1.2ish worth in US dollars? So, it still above $8 billion?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 12 May 2016 07:12

The weapons package is the most important part. If we are buying Rafale, we must be in a position to integrate the weapons of our choice. Be it Astra, NGARM, indigenous bombs or anything we like.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 May 2016 07:25

sivab wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 230203.cms

€7.25-billion: France makes its ‘best’ price offer for 36 Rafale fighter jets

The Rafale fighter deal that has been stuck for the past several months on pricing issues is likely to move ahead with a new offer from Paris that could see India paying 7.25 billion for 36 new jets.

The new offer from France is the lowest price being quoted for the Rafale fighters till now, though a weapons package is to be negotiated separately. Officials involved in the negotiations have told ET that the latest French offer came just over two weeks ago and could be the last price being offered for the Rafale fighter jets that are being procured by India under a government to government deal.
This is a substantial cut from the 8.8 billion Euro figure that was being quoted for the deal in BJP circles and was even advertised by its IT department as a major win for the Modi government.

Officials say that the negotiations will now only move forward after an Indian response to the offer. The two sides are also negotiating a five-year support package for the fighter jets, down from the ten-year package that was being discussed earlier. Sources say that the weapons package will be signed separately as has been the norm but the original requirement has been pruned.

This has been done as several weapons are common with the in service Mirage fighter fleet. ...
...

Are these guys on the Indian side some fools? How is it a price cut when support pack has been brought down to 5-years from 10-years and weapons package a separate deal along with other "pruning" of requirements? All these "pruning" has artificially brought the cost down from €8.8 billion to €7.25 billion ... only for India to pay premium prices later on. But who's counting?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 May 2016 08:30

$ 8 billion without weapons package? Holeee smokes batman, that is one swell deal..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 May 2016 10:49

He!He!

So the wheels come in extra too what? What about cost of manuals? Maintenance package down by 5 years-easy way to reduce the cost it means nothing to the OEM,in fact hhe can charge more 5 yrs later. So after 5 years it gets to be double? Weapons like the torpedoes on the Scorpenes to be "extras",not original eqpt. Great way to plan for a fighting machine. "Cost creep" will plague the Rafale and the IAF will spend all its moolah on these birds and keep blaming the Russkies for the real fighting teeth of the force,the MKIs. It now all makes sense. Downgrading Ru eqpt. ,MKI availability,etc.,so that the uber-expensive Rafale deal goes through and the champagne corks can be popped.

Plus someone should look into the hideous cost of upgrading the M2Ks,in some td to be equal to the L CA capability(!)at $60M+ per bird! That almost twice as much as a brand new MIG-29K that the IN has acquired.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 May 2016 10:58

^^^

According to Dassault, Mirage-2000 MLU cost was 80% of brand new planes. Anyone wants to do the math for MLU cost for $300 million Rafale?

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 12 May 2016 11:16

If US interests are threatened, then I bet France will do join sanctions bandwagon. During Pokran sanctions, US-France played bad cop and good cop game. I say ditch Rafale and go for F-18 with G-2-G deal with promise to produce G-414 EPE engine completely in India with all relevant tech plus manufacture of air frame in India. Then later use same assembly lines to churn out AMCA.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 12 May 2016 11:57

Another planted article in Economic Times, and we are all getting our undies in twist. Lets trust Parrikar