MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Locked
Uttam
BRFite
Posts: 577
Joined: 15 Apr 2003 11:31
Location: USA

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Uttam »

SaiK wrote: This argument has gone insane.. be it NaMo rep or a hardcore IA person,.. if they can't understand ground pressure, please disband their views from this thread at the very least.

:x
What I presented is the view of a mid-level officer in IA. As you correctly mentioned, based on the ground pressure his view is incorrect. So, this leads me to believe there may be one or more of the following happening:

1) The officer was misinformed. In that case somebody has to fix the communication part.
2) The officer was lying. I don't understand why he would lie to a non-entity like me. He is not a decision maker in the tank induction process, so again there is no reason for him to lie.
3) There is something he knows that the experts on this forum have not considered.

Both 1) and 3) are rather disturbing to me and should be considered on this forum and that is why I shared it.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

I understand.. but I was just pointing why you should NOT be disturbed rather be happy on where Arjun is now. It has beaten the heck outta T90s.. and that is what you should keep telling yourself and if by chance meet him again, keep saying that. Also present him the CAG report per page 1.

Regarding logistics.. there is no nightmare shitemare.. it is just freaking the middleman and russkie bijnej people only.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5484
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Manish_P »

Came across this post while trawling through the MBT Arjun related posts.. hence reposting/crossposting

Link to original post, by KaranM, : here
My Tryst with Indigenous Armour Development
Dr T. Balakrishna Bhat

Born little after India’s independence, as a child,
I used to imagine and feel that I owned the
whole great country. My father was a respected school headmaster who used to get respectful
salutations from members of nearly every house situated all along a seven kilometer long
path of walk to his school through hills and fields. He would reciprocate with appropriate
affectionate words without stopping his walk. It was a thrill to walk with him. My mother
would often be cheerfully singing tunes and hymns while taking care of the small farm, all
the workers, children, cows and guests with infinite patience and love. It was a great joy to do
every type of work to help her and receive her blessings. Early in the morning, every day,
father would gently wake me up by teaching me shlokas, maths, words, spellings and
grammar while sitting by my bedside even as I lay on the bed with closed eyes, and end the
day similarly at night. This process I believe gaveme many things, including a habit of not
wasting a single moment from the time one wakes upto the moment one falls asleep.

At the age of 14, I joined Sri Ramakrishna Mission Balakashram at Mangalore where the
rigorous discipline of perfectly doing all the chores along with studies toughened the mind-
body system. Here I had the chance to tutor (free)classmates and younger students, which
increased my grasp on the subject and also strengthened my self-confidence.

In 1967, I joined the B.Tech programme at IIT Madras. Here, I concentrated totally on
understanding the principles and deeper aspects rather than on securing grades. This quest
made me read a large number of books and to some extent journals available in the Institute
library where I would often sit up until it closed late in the night. After B.tech, I secured
admission with scholarship to do PhD at Washington State University, but, when I learnt that
USA had sent its 7th fleet in readiness to attack India during the Bangladesh conflict, I
changed my mind. Instead, I went to IISc Bangalore to study M.E from where DMRL
recruited me.

At DMRL, for the first six months or so, I visited
all the groups and glanced through all the
books and journals and generated hundreds of resear
ch ideas. Initially I worked on TEM and
intermetallic alloy systems. One day, Dr. V.S. Arun
achalam, who had joined as our new
director called me aside and in his characteristic
excited way asked me whether I prefer to
work on pure science and maybe hope to get a Noble
prize one day, or work on an important
development work. Because of the training at IIT, p
roud to be an engineer, I immediately
chose the latter path.

Next day Dr. Arunachalam called me to his office and excitedly explained the scattered notings in his little diary
about the Chobham armour trials shown in a hazy way in England to the visiting Chief of Army Staff and asked me if we can quickly develop and demonstrate a similar one. Though I knew nothing, I sensed that every atom in my body was excited.
First I made a quick dash to TBRL, ARDE and weapons related laboratories studying all available reports and papers to understand the nature of the threats and their operating principles and mechanisms. To find some solution, I went into a contemplative enquiry mode and scanned the rather difficult journals such as “Journal of Applied Physics” at the libraries in IISc and TIFR to look for sound principles based on which one can construct appropriate armour materials on our own ab initio. Various ideas such as Konda’s effect, deflection of shockwaves, splitting of the jets, avoiding momentum multiplication, using extremely high viscosities of glass like substances, facilitating lateral dispersal of momentum and energy, breaking up the projectiles or deflecting the proje ctiles etc. were conceived. Appropriate tailor made materials and structures were thought of. It was realized that while in most engineering materials and applications we need to maximize strength, sometimes strength and toughness, in armour we need to maximize the product of strength, ductility and the volume that participates in energy absorption. Increased speed of plastic wave and increased homogeneity of strain that accompanies it is critical. These are unique requirements. Further,it was observed that while homogeneous deformation is key for maximizing energy
absorption, inhomogeneous flow is desirable for momentum absorption such as in the case of HEAT and for turning or breaking the shots. For dissipating or absorbing shocks, layered structures should be preferred. Accordingly, many new materials and structures were conceived and made.

The first results of the trials on the HEAT rounds came within a few months and, may be for
the beginner’s luck, were truly fantastic. Soon, larger samples were made and tested at PXE
Balasore. The plates not only defeated the HEAT rounds but also withstood the KE, APDS
rounds. The round was trapped inside. To see what happened to it, the plate was brought to
DMRL. It was cut open the same night to see what actually happened to the shot. I and Dr. Arunachalam walked from Lab Quarters to DMRL at well past midnight to examine the plate from inside. To our shock, the shot was not inside, hiding, but had actually broken up to fine dust!

It was an exciting beginning. A comprehensive and confident programme thus began at
DMRL. Using a variety of starting materials such as ceramics, hard steels, tough composites, and
energetic explosives, the armour programme advanced in many directions to meet a host of
challenging requirements. Success after success came in the form of armour system for MBTArjun and its continuously improving features. For T-72 Ajeya and for T-90 the required armour technology was developed indigenously. Armour for light vehicles, helicopters and many other applications like lancer helicopter, Vijayanta tank, ICV-Abhay and Mi-17
helicopters also emerged out of the programme to meet the requirements. It gives great satisfaction and excitement to me and my research team.

More than 20,000 tonnes of various armour materials have been produced to meet the various requirements. An Armour Technology Centre has been set up in the 700 acres of land specially acquired for the purpose.

There are a few critical factors which I believe have contributed to the above successes in the tryst with indigenous armour development:
1.Full trust, support and freedom provided by the organization.
2.From the user’s side, the area of protection is one thing that is close to the heart of every member from soldier to the chief, and evokes spontaneous, deeply supportive and encouraging responses.

My heartfelt acknowledgement is to my family and wo rk related family whose unfathomabledepth of emotions, support and commitment has enabled the attainment of deeply satisfying results in my tryst with destiny in the service of the nation, which reconfirms my childhood feeling that I indeed own the whole country is correct. I also acknowledge that while something has been do ne, there is a lot more to be done and forever so.

Jai Hind
Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

ramana wrote:Viv S, I saw your proposal and let me tell you what I feel.

I don't think BRF should champion any one cause except soldier's welfare like the Quikclot type things.

Reason is we will get entangled in unknown mess.

Having said that I have no problem in BRF being a repository for facts that can be used by members.

I feel the current thread is doing its job of collating facts about the Arjun.


ramana
Unfortunately, this isn't just about nationalism, our desire to see a domestic program evolve into a success story, alleviating our import dependence and laying the roots for future armoured vehicles. (Our aviation industry for example, would have been in a far different state today had the HF-24 not been abandoned all those years ago.) There's much more at stake in this case.

The pertinent question here is, do we believe the Indian soldier's survival in battle (and thus his welfare) is better served if he goes to war in/along the Arjun or the T-90? In BRF's collective wisdom, is the distinction immaterial or can it potentially be the difference between a veteran returning home or one more martyr to the nation? If we're convinced that unlike Quikclot, the tank issue doesn't matter, or matters much less (perhaps because a conventional war is unlikely), then yes it makes sense for the forum to not take even a low-key position on it.

What I'm afraid is that the thread intended as a repository for facts, will end up serving as epitaph to the Arjun's demise and a loss to the country.

____________________________________


In any event, would it be possibly for you to 'enable' the PM feature on my user account. Thanks.
Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Cosmo_R »

chetak wrote:
There is/was a solution of tank mounted flailing chains beating a safe(?) path ahead of the tank. I don't know if is a contemporary solution or a WWII solution that did not work out. :)
It's a timeless concept that still does not work.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tank+mo ... 80&bih=566
Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1444
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Kersi D »

Viv S wrote:Good enough for China, but India spurns Arjun


For some inexplicable reason, the army prefers to use Russian armour; Arjun is deployed in only two of its 63 armoured regiments

Ajai Shukla | New Delhi July 6, 2015

Chinese experts have given a thumbs up to the Arjun main battle tank (MBT), even as India's own army continues to sideline it, inexplicably preferring to continue a four-decade-long dependence on Russian armoured vehicles.

Last week, a senior People's Liberation Army (PLA) officer at its premier tank design institution, the Academy of Armoured Forces Engineering in Beijing, told visiting Indian journalists that the Arjun tank is "very good", and well suited for Indian conditions.

This could hardly have been pro forma politeness, as PLA is not given to praising India's military capabilities. It would appear that PLA officers, who work closely with China's defence industry in developing their new Main Battle Tank 3000 (MBT3000, also called VT-4), seem more aware than their Indian counterparts of the challenges and benefits of developing an indigenous MBT.

In contrast, India's military has stood aloof, criticising and even undermining the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) as it struggled to design the Arjun tank.

To this day, the army has ordered only 122 Arjuns, the defence ministry told Parliament on April 24. The Arjun equips just two of the army's 63 armoured regiments -the 43rd and 75th Armoured Regiments.

In comparison, the army has almost 2,500 T-72 tanks, many of which are night-blind and nearing the end of their 32-year service lives. The army will also have 1,657 of the more modern T-90S tanks, being built under licence from Russia by the Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi, near Chennai.

While the army's vehement opposition to the Arjun was often valid in initial years, the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment eventually overcame a series of glitches that dogged early versions of the tank.

In March 2010, the Arjun outperformed the Russian T-90S, the army's premier tank, in comparative trials near Bikaner. The trials, attended by the army chief and top generals, sent shock waves through the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces, the nodal office for armoured and mechanised regiments and their tanks and infantry combat vehicles.

No respite

Yet, the army's opposition to the Arjun continued. Instead of the successful trials eliciting more orders, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces demanded from DRDO a long list of changes in the Arjun. DRDO was told to incorporate the modifications into a new variant, the Arjun Mark II. If that proved successful in trials, the army undertook to order another 118 Arjuns.

"DRDO is currently engaged in the development of MBT Arjun Mk-II with 73 improvements (including 15 major improvements) over MBT Arjun Mk-I. Out of these 73 improvements, 53 have been found successful based on User trials. No time line for induction into Army can be fixed at this stage (sic)", said the defence ministry in Parliament on April 24.

The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces has taken various positions on why it does not want the Arjun. For years, it argued that the 62-tonne Arjun was too heavy. It claimed the tank would get bogged down in desert sands, and that bridges and culverts on Indian border roads could not withstand such heavy load. The army also complained the tank was too wide to be transported by railway.

This notion was comprehensively disproved during the comparative trials, when the Arjun proved more mobile than the lighter, 42-tonne T-90S, even on soft desert sand. A "third-party evaluation" done by Israel Military Industries, which had developed the highly regarded Merkava tank, concluded the Arjun would outrun most tanks.

Then, even while continuing to argue that the Arjun was too heavy, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces' demand for 73 modifications to the Arjun quite predictably resulted in the tank becoming even heavier. The army's demand for Explosive Reactive Armour to protect the crew better added on one-and-a-half tonnes. Another one-and-a-half tonnes were added due to mine ploughs demanded by the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces which churn up the ground ahead of the tank's tracks, unearthing buried anti-tank mines. Numerous other modifications, including a commander's panoramic sight, slapped on another two tonnes. From 62 tonnes, the Arjun now weighs 67 tonnes.

Adding missile power

The Arjun Mark II is now held up by the army's insistence that it should fire an anti-tank guided missile through its main gun, which is actually designed to fire armour piercing and high explosive shells. DRDO approached Israel Aircraft Industry for its Lahat missile, which has not proved successful. Now, a Ukrainian design bureau has been approached for its Kombat missile.

Meanwhile, the modifications demanded by the army have doubled the Arjun's cost from its initial Rs 18 crore. On August 29, 2011, the defence ministry told Parliament, "The likely estimated cost of each MBT Arjun Mark-II with all major/minor improvements will be approximately Rs 37 crore."

Nor has the ill-fated Arjun project led to lessons being learnt on the need for cooperation between DRDO and the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces in designing and bringing to service a next-generation indigenous tank. For years, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces has been unable to specify the design requirements of the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), as the project was called. Each successive director general, traditionally a lieutenant general from the armoured corps, has brought his own ideas to the job, which have invariably diverged from those of his predecessor. In the circumstances, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces has not responded to repeated DRDO requests for clear specifications.

"There has been no discussion on the FMBT, or consensus building across the armoured corps. Each Directorate General of Mechanised Forces chief consults only with a narrow group of officers around him. Without corps-wide consensus, naturally there would be divergent views," says a senior officer serving in the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces.

Without any idea of what kind of FMBT it wants, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces has now abdicated that decision entirely. In a Request for Information last month that has sent shock waves through the defence industry, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces asked tank manufacturers across the world to propose the design for a "new generation, state-of-the-art combat vehicle platform" that it has dubbed the Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV).

A retired senior tank officer points out: "An army that keeps abreast with tank design should not need to ask global vendors the specifications of its future tank. Vendors would, in any case, be guided by their commercial interests rather than by Indian operational requirements."

Another striking feature in the new FRCV proposal is DRDO's sidelining. With a foreign vendor leading the design process, and cobbling together a consortium to manufacture the tank, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces -and, in acquiescing, the defence ministry -has abandoned the option of translating DRDO's experience and expertise gained on the Arjun into a next-generation indigenous tank.

Going by past experience, the FRCV proposal too could end up in the trash can. If the government goes by the principle of seniority, the army chief after General Dalbir Singh will be an armoured corps officer, General Pravin Bakshi. Like other senior tank-men, he has been excluded from the FRCV proposal. Defence watchers believe a new decision will be taken, and DRDO is waiting in the wings to play its role.

SUPPOSE

China orders 1000 Arjuns. What will happen ?





India orders 1000 Armatas

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1444
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Kersi D »

Sid wrote:
Kersi D wrote:Way back in the 1960s / 70s US Army used a anti tank missiles Shillelah which was fired form the tank gun. For reasons not know to me US discontinued this practise. Why ? Any ideas ?

Today except Israel no other "western" country uses tank-gun launched ATGM. Only Rodina has this system.
Any reason why Russia is following this path ?

What would be the advantages and dis-advantages of this system
K
Most probably because they changed the way they used to tackle armored threat. They use aerial platforms to take care of armor threat, i.e. cobras/apache/A-10/UAVs/etc. Plus their man portable ATGMs are in ample supply.

US/NATO use MBTs for holding the ground and troop support for which their current firepower and armor is more then sufficient. By the time they reach their AOR, enemy is mostly flattened.

Why add more cost and complexity then you have other platforms to take care of same problem?

For us its still 1972, we still don't have good aerial support (integral air arm for IA) or good ATGMs. Everything next gen is still in pipeline.
Quite possible. :) :) :)
Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1444
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Kersi D »

Avinash R wrote: The only hope for India remains the Arjun Tanks. If the army continues with its fascination for foreign maal then we are all doomed.
Indian hopes v/s Natasha's charms
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

There is a "cultural" problem that needs to be understood and resolved in the controversy over non-induction of more Arjuns,I've been saying it from the beginning of the debate many years ago.The IA since T-72s were inducted have inculcated the culture of a 3-man crew MBT.which is relatively light for an MBT,auto-loader,etc. The era of Vijayantas and T-55s were cast aside and for over 3 decades now it has been operating mostly T-72s and T-90s in their thousands. Thousands of tank crews know nothing other than training to fight the enemy in a T-series tank. Various improvements were made to T-72s from its arrival and the MBT was also manufactured in India.Here is one reason why the T-72 was a popular tank. Smaller in size it was also cheaper than western tanks and had good protection.
The July 1997 issue of Jane's International Defence Review confirmed that after the collapse of the USSR, US and German analysts had a chance to examine Soviet-made T-72 tanks equipped with Kontakt-5 ERA, and they proved impenetrable to most modern US and German tank projectiles;[citation needed] this sparked the development of more modern Western tank ammunition, such as the M829A2 and M829A3. Russian tank designers responded with newer types of reactive armour, including Relikt and Kaktus.
In the case of the IA,the Cold War was at its height and India never had at that time access to cutting edge Western weaponry,which in any case was also unaffordable to India at that time .The T-72 was followed on with the knee-jerk acquisition of the T-90 when Pak acquired UKR T-80UDs.We therefore bought/built thousands of the two types,imbibed some of the doctrine and tactics of the Russian Army,which saw a blitzkrieg/molniya attack on NATO using these smaller MBTs ,able to cross many bridges,etc. that NATO's larger,heavier tanks could not. The indigenous MBT that we developed,Arjun was a tribute to the German Leopard tank (considered the best western design) from initial versions of it and also has the very same engine that the Leopard uses.It was larger,heavier ,had a 4-man crew and given the IA's propensity for "T" series tanks,smaller profile,smaller crew,lower weight,etc., perhaps didn't find favour with the IA for the above reasons mentioned.

This was nothing to do with Arjun's performance,but a mental/ideological block,coupled with acute cynicism that our DPSUs could deliver a world class MBT. This explains the repeated nitpicking about Arjun's "failings" and alleged goalpost shifting,ramping up requirements ignoring similar failings in the T-90 (CAG report). We see a similar attitude that exists between the IAF and DPSUs/HAL.The IN on the other hand ,which got the least amt. of money and slice of the cake,had no alternative but to take maters into their own hands,use their ingenuity into becoming a world class design bureau over a span of 4 decades. This never happened with the IA and IAF for various reasons. One can do a post-doctoral thesis on it! It was only when the Arjun bested the T-90 in combat trials that the blinkers came off amongst the top brass of the IA and reality dawned. The interests section of the "T" series are no wonder doing their best to see that their interests do not suffer as the demand for induction of Arjun has grown louder and louder.

What we've not had from any official source is a white paper (most welcome) on the IA's order of battle,MBT acquisitions,T-90 vs Arjun,rationale for T-72 upgrades, comparative performance of the various types,costs,FMBT,etc. ,as well as the future force projection,some say 4500 MBTs by 2020,that too with many obsolete T-72s to be retired. If so ,where does the IA expect these to come from? The arrival of the new Russian Armata family of AVs has also queered the pitch for the IA's FMBT design/Arjun MK-2,with new IA requirements. The IA's reluctance to induct the MK-2 even a few hundred of them (barring horrendous costs per tank) defies logic. In the overall battle order,at least 3500+ of our MBTs will still be of Soviet/Russian origin. Even if we build 500 Arjuns,this will be barely 10% of the inventory of MBTs. The prod. line is empty we are told at Avadi. The absence of further Arjun orders only leads to further speculation about vested interests bent upon sabotaging the tank.

As a former chief said,I quoted not too long ago,every deal has talk about a dark side to it with kickbacks,etc. mentioned/alleged. If that is par for the course in India,Bofors,Tatra,etc.,then only G-to-G deals should be the norm in the case of firang qcquisitions. If we are really serious about reducing the "70%" firang content in the country's weapon systems,then a start must be made with the A-2,which has progressed further than even the LCA.
vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by vaibhav.n »

Philip,

The least, basic, minimum the Armoured Corps could have done is a Tank-ex. The problem is they are all Frunze CCA graduates and cannot look beyond russian products. Even the soviet fighting phisophy has seeped in now, meek set-piece battles and little imagination.

A far cry from the days of yore of the irregular cavalry, which they soo like to celebrate...

I always thought the Tank Ex (a DRDO initiative) looked better than even the Arjun......
http://pib.nic.in/photo/2008/Jan/l2008012316560.jpg
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Vivek K »

How about IA importing 500 Al-Khali tanks?
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

The "F" mag has a report ,quoting an IA Gen.on the IA's global call for an FRCV to replace T-72s.Will go through it in depth and post.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

In brief.The IA,a general quoted,wants a futuristic family of AVs,both tracked and wheeled ,global entities are being approached for ideas.The winning idea will be the intellectual property right of the IA! Scepticism is being seen amongst the global manufacturers because of the need for one concept for both tracked and wheeled AVs. The IA is supposedly unhappy with the DRDO's long gestation period for desi designs (read Arjun).The new future combat vehicles will/should arrive around 2025,replacing the T-72s in service. it reads like a typical case of "best is the enemy of good enough". There are also some gems like,"with an MBT why do we need a light tank"? One presumes that all types of MBTs will be able to be easily transported to the Himalayas and supported in style as well! The PT-76s exploits in the '71 war too seem to have been forgotten.

Intrigued though I am with the Russian Armata family of AVs,which have many outstanding features, one can't help but feeling that the IA after that entity's unveiling has caught an acute case of the "Armatatitis" virus. Brochureitis is a "common cold" by comparison.It is going to be most interesting to see what the result of this endeavor will be.

The logical progression/solution to replacements in the IA's inventory is apart from the T-90s already ordered-in the pipeline and which cannot be stopped,is to replace the hundreds of T-55s and most obsolescent T-72s with A-2s. Incremental upgrades of existing models has been the way of most major armies/manufacturers from the Russians,Germans,Israelis,US,etc.

As I said earlier,our Arjun production is re[ortedly barely 50 tanks/yr,which means that even if 500 are ordered,with the same production rate,it will take a decade for them to be built! A total of 500 Arjuns,Mk-1/2s will also comprise of just 10+% of the total planned inventory and will not be enough to replace T-55s and T-72s.Almost 2000 tanks are required. Is Avadi up to the task even of building another MBT apart from the T-90s and Arjuns? It was last reported that 300+ T-90s were to be imported from Russia 9earlier posts).What needs to be done is to either ramp up production facilities at Avadi and if not possible,establish another HVF factory elsewhere.,or open it up to the pvt. sector .
suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4042
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Looks like philip ji wants to give them the virus even if the don't have it(I don't see any other reason for the bolder part) armata I repeat is a paper/pappu tank that needs money for development and needs a sucker who can and will have to make bad deals like improper price negotiations and also act as a guinea pig for the development. And please show some mercy let this thread at least be only for Arjun
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

Suyra,pl don't put words into my mouth.I am only quoting from a piece where an IA general has given his views on the IA's future AV needs. I've made my point about incremental acquisitions first before revolutionary MBTs are required. The IA now appears to be asking for the moon and a few stars as well. Firang manufacturers are scratching their heads at this.Good luck to the IA.10 years from now we'll see what has happened ,if one lives that long.
Will
BRFite
Posts: 637
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 11:27

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Will »

I think the iA has no clue of what they want in an FMBT. That's the reason for this rigmarole of an RFI. They will study all proposals received. As usual pick the best from each proposal an then ask the DRDO to develop it. When DRDO fails in developing it for a decade or so due to unrealistic expectations the IA will go ahead and push for import of another tin an? After trying to run down the Arjun for decades on account of its weight I would love to see the IA try and justify the Aramata which is as heavy if not heavier than the Arjun. Someone needs to kick some IA generals up the backside.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

Will,guys,is there any open source info/articles perhaps in IDR,etc.,reg the IA's armoured warfare doctrine ? At least one was clear with the Germans and Russians WW2 and post-WW2. The Russians built two types of tanks,one heavier MBT to bash holes in NATO defences and then allow the lighter T-series to swiftly blitz there way through Western Europe.Right now we seem in a similar situ,if taken advantage of.Heavier,Arjuns to complement the T-tanks.

The new Russian A series appears to be a desire to retain its heavy firepower,bells and whistles,plus increasing armour protection due to the recent urban conflict experience,that NATO/US tasted in the ME,etc.. Europe is very urbanised,while the Indo-Pak battlefields are far less urbanized,ranging from the Rajasthan deserts,to the Punjab wheatfields and J&K mountains! What will play a key role in winning battles on the ground will be the quantum of close air support that ground forces get in the form of CAS aircraft and attack helos.Here,the LCH is going to play a great part in the future.On the cusp of approval,can be built in the hundreds. Armoured columns supported seamlessly by attack helos ,aerial tanks,capable of defending themselves against aircraft too with SRAAMs,is going to be vital.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

I think the iA has no clue of what they want in an FMBT
More than likely you are right.

After all the RFI essentially says you design and build for us. The vendors might as well let the IA know what is the doctrine too.
Hobbes
BRFite
Posts: 219
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 02:59

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Hobbes »

Will wrote:I think the iA has no clue of what they want in an FMBT. That's the reason for this rigmarole of an RFI. They will study all proposals received. As usual pick the best from each proposal an then ask the DRDO to develop it. When DRDO fails in developing it for a decade or so due to unrealistic expectations the IA will go ahead and push for import of another tin an? After trying to run down the Arjun for decades on account of its weight I would love to see the IA try and justify the Aramata which is as heavy if not heavier than the Arjun. Someone needs to kick some IA generals up the backside.
AFAIK they're not even going to do that. One of the newspapers had an Armoured Corps general saying that DRDO was welcome to join in as the junior partner to one of the established vendors invited to bid for the proposal. Really leaves one speechless...
uddu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2091
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by uddu »

This shows corruption has crept in a big way in the Army. Government being silent on this matter is of no use. The policy must be no more imports of Armored vehicles and everything need to be build in India with major reshuffles in the Army. The first step is to place an order for thousand Arjun MBT with whatever upgrade is already done.
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Vivek K »

^^^^+1.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

The general quoted said that the Arjun was "bits and pieces from here and there put together.." or words to that effect.May be indeed,but that is what the IN has successfully done melding eastern and western weaponry,sensors and tech into warships much admired by foreign navies and generally built at much lower cost too. So too is the LCA.Even many Russian aircraft and helos today fly with western engines .The list of variants of the FRCV is so numerous that it makes the new Russian family of AVs look miniscule by comparison.The article also mentioned that 40+(?) previous proposals for various weapon systems by the IA were eventually rejected for being fundamentally flawed. I seriously wonder which firang manufacturer is going to scratch his head bald ,spending a huge amount of time designing the "one size fits all" beast for the IA,then only gets a special "cash prize" for his efforts,with his design being the sole property of the IA,development handed out to someone else,and production to yet another entity,with the DRDO also being "allowed" to take part in the contest!

The author of the article said that this approach would also derail not just the FMBT project,but also the FICV project planned to be given to the pvt. sector. Some time ago the then DRDO chief was quoted as saying that the IA's FMBT requirements were "impossible",a huge amount of goodies stuffed into a tank weighing around 50-55t only.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5484
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Manish_P »

Army, DRDO fight it out again over Arjun and futuristic tanks

Article by Rajat Pandit in TOI

Some points
Yet another battle has erupted between the Army and DRDO in their long-running feud over the indigenous Arjun main-battle tank. Unhappy at being saddled with 122 Arjun Mark-I tanks, the force has refused to order its Mark-II variant till the prototypes perform satisfactorily.
"Arjuns did better than Russian-origin T-90S tanks in comparative trials in 2010. But the Army keeps on changing its technical requirements. If it ordered around 500 Arjuns, it would stabilize production lines. This, in turn, will allow regular upgrades and set the stage for developing the FMBT," said a scientist.
The referee in the raging battle, defence minister Manohar Parrikar, told Parliament on Tuesday that the Army's proposed FRCV project was to meet its "futuristic requirements beyond 2027". It is "not in conflict with the current MBT Arjun programme and its future orders", he added.
"The bane of Arjun is its 62-tonne weight and the consequent poor operational mobility," said a top officer. Given its excessive weight and width, the Arjun can't be used in Punjab and northern deserts for armoured thrusts under the "Pro-Active" or "Cold Start" war strategy, which has long rattled Pakistan. "Many bridges and culverts in Punjab will not be able to take its weight. Moreover, our rail tank transporters will find it tough to carry the Arjuns from one sector to another," he added.
"The worry is that DRDO will push an Arjun Mark-III under the FMBT programme. Under the FCRV project in tune with the Make in India policy, we are looking at futuristic combat platform which can multi-task, take on both enemy tanks and attack helicopters," said the Army officer.
Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7793
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Prasad »

Same bloody nonsense from the Army. why even manufacture tanks in-country? Might as well import fully assembled kits flown in from mother russia eh? Might as well get the fellows at Avadi to go and educate their kids.
Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

Manish_P wrote:Army, DRDO fight it out again over Arjun and futuristic tanks

Article by Rajat Pandit in TOI

But the Army is adamant it will not order 118 Arjun Mark-II tanks, at a cost of Rs 5,745 crore, till they clear all operational trials. The force already has 122 Arjun Mark-I tanks, with the bulk of them being grounded at present due to major technical and maintenance problems.

What we've suspected all along. The Army will not accept the Arjun until it can fly.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by sum »

^^ Reads like a fakingnews article but sadly for the country, is the real deal!!! :cry: :cry:
P Chitkara
BRFite
Posts: 355
Joined: 30 Aug 2004 08:09

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by P Chitkara »

Even if Arjun is built with stuff imported from here and there, we still have much more control over it today and more importantly, its evolution than we will ever have with any next gen screwdriver tank. With such an attitude, condemn ourselves to continue as an importer, dependent on whims and fancies of whoever has the tech.

Laying down specs that end up in a 60T+ tank and then crying foul over weight is just not reasonable.

BTW what weight range is the IA looking for this futuristic tank?
P Chitkara
BRFite
Posts: 355
Joined: 30 Aug 2004 08:09

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by P Chitkara »

Viv S wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Army, DRDO fight it out again over Arjun and futuristic tanks

Article by Rajat Pandit in TOI

But the Army is adamant it will not order 118 Arjun Mark-II tanks, at a cost of Rs 5,745 crore, till they clear all operational trials. The force already has 122 Arjun Mark-I tanks, with the bulk of them being grounded at present due to major technical and maintenance problems.

What we've suspected all along. The Army will not accept the Arjun until it can fly.
Interestingly, any article from this gentleman in TOI supporting indigenous effort is very hard to come by. All one reads is criticism, criticism and criticism of all domestic effort. I will be more than happy to stand corrected in this case.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

If the truth is otherwise,then the DRDO should also come out with statements refuting the article. The key reason for rejecting the Arjun by the IA appears to be from the article size and weight,reliability next. If the goalposts have kept on changing tx to the IA's insistence,then there would be ample evidence to show how the tank got to being the size/weight it is and whose fault.Sometime ago the DRDO chief said that the IA's requirements/parameters for an FMBT were impossible to design/develop. I think it wanted all the bells and whistles in a Maruti -sized tank! In any case,the basic config of the tank hasn't really changed much over the years.If the size was too big a decade ago,why bring it up only now? What we need is a white paper on the issue from the MOD/GOI to educate all.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5484
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Manish_P »

@Philip - The person from the DRDO has mentioned in the article about the changing requirements of the IA.

If the IA and the DRDO have to use public channels to make statements accusing each other as the reason for failure, then there is no point in having the Customer-Supplier relationship.

However the most disturbing part for me was the army officer (supposedly) saying that the worry was the DRDO may push for the Arjun Mk3 for the FMBT

:shock:

Why that of all things should be a worry??

Have the specs of the FMBT been finalized? Is there such an FMBT program (with the same specs) on way to production anywhere else in the world? Is there any detailed study on whether we will be able to afford the costs and if not then what is IA thinking of as plan B, plan C?

Why is it such a worry to let a own home company even make an attempt to develop the prototype and take part in comparative trials?

After all as the final user it is the IA which will continue to have the final say right... or have i missed the picture completely
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5299
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by srai »

^^^

Yes, the IA continues to think like a "3rd world army". There seems to be a lack of strategic vision overall.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

With mud-slinging in public,it is incumbent upon the chief stakeholder,the GOI to clear the air.In many other countries there is a healthy debate on defence matters with Qs asked in parliament,the media,,etc.
The controversy over Arjun has gone on now for several years. With so much of resources,surely the GOI/MOD can sift the truth from the turd?
uddu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2091
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by uddu »

That article do have many things which has been said against the Arjun from the start and debunked many times. So the article can be best be ignored.
Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Cosmo_R »

Viv S wrote:..

What we've suspected all along. The Army will not accept the Arjun until it can fly.


Maybe they will bring up the Wart Hogs when the Arjun flies. :)
Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Cosmo_R »

Manish_P wrote:......."we are looking at futuristic combat platform which can multi-task, take on both enemy tanks and attack helicopters," said the Army officer.
And the FRCV would be a heavy tank based on a chassis that can be reused for lightweight tanks and IFV and minesweepers and have a towed array sonar.
SanjayC
BRFite
Posts: 1557
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by SanjayC »

Modi needs to crack the whip on generals and discipline them. They are being absolutely facetious and frivolous with their juvenile wish lists and deliberate shifting of goal posts to ensure an Indian tank never materializes. The seriousness expected from the army in these kind of matters is totally missing - generals are acting as teenage fanboys of imported toys.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

I suspect there are middle men that have enough power to counter Modi. Perhaps some in foreign lands that provide support?

This needs more than the gov.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

some aap-let can be hired to meet mr pandit in person? i don't mean to harm him but just to give him a piece of our minds.
SanjayC
BRFite
Posts: 1557
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by SanjayC »

In contrast, this is how the navy does it:
Indian Navy Chalks Out 15-Year Plan for Indigenisation

Aiming for total indigenisation, the Indian Navy on Monday released a plan that includes list of equipment to be made in the country in the next 15 years.

It takes into account the Maritime Perspective Plan, which defines the goal for equipment and vessels with the Navy; the Maritime Infrastructure Perspective Plan, that focuses on building infrastructure along with the plans for cooperation with other countries; the Maritime Cooperation Roadmap Perspective Plan; and a Science and Technology roadmap that the navy has prepared with the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

"The government will not buy anything off the shelf from other countries," a navy official said while talking about the plan which comes as the government focuses on indegenisation.

"The indigenisation requirements of the navy have been covered under categories of 'float', 'move', and 'fight', under sub-categories of marine engineering, electrical and electronic, weapons, armament and sensors, submarine systems, aircraft handling systems, diving and special operations and aviation equipment," a statement on the plan said.

Of the three components of shipbuilding, the navy is 90 percent indigenised in the float category, 60 percent in the move category and only 30 percent in the fight category, that includes weapons and sensors.

The plan now aims at making 'arrestor wires', which assist in stopping aircraft while landing on ships, aircraft lifts, long-life paints for underwater hull, flight deck and radar absorption, composite foldable aircraft hangar door, bow sonar dome and glass for windows on ships' bridge among other things.

The plans for the move category include gas turbines, main propulsion diesel engines, and air independent propulsion, while the fight category plans include a long list of equipment ranging from surface-to-air missiles to fire control systems and super rapid gun mounts.

The list for naval aviation includes naval utility helicopters, naval multi-role helicopters and a number of other equipment.
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-n ... ion-783485
Hobbes
BRFite
Posts: 219
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 02:59

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Hobbes »

Rajat Pandit and Manu Pubby are notorious for their incessant campaigns against indigenous products. I've rarely known them to indulge in anything except yellow and/ or lifafa journalism in all matters relating to indigenous design and manufacture in defence. They qualified for the hall of shame long ago, and I'd suggest that we just ignore them. I personally have a great deal of faith in the PM and RM, and trust them to do the right thing.

I do admit that Parrikar's statement about the Arjun program not being in competition with the FRCV program sounds disingenuous, but that was a quick off the cuff remark in the context of an interview that covered other things. These are clever, honest and hardworking people that I believe we can trust to do the right thing. Of course, if I'm wrong then all indigenous projects are screwed!
Locked