MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Jul 2015 20:40

thanks for taking the time and effort to do this, hobbes !

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 01 Jul 2015 20:57

From orginal post by srai

Post link
Original Link on Broadsword

List of modifications marked for Arjun Mark 2 MBT
1. Missile firing capability
2. Commander’s TI panoramic sight Mk II
3. Driver’s uncooled thermal imaging night sight
4. Additional ammunition (don’t ask… won’t tell!)
5. Enhanced ammunition penetrator
6. Effective alternative to muzzle reference sight (MRS)
7. Resin-based CCC
8. Ten-round containerised bin
9. Explosive reactive armour panels
10. Infra-red/Thermal imaging resistant paint
11. Air defence weapon remote firing
12. ALWCS (advanced laser warning and countermeasure system)
13. Roof mounted driver’s seat
14. ATT in GMS (gunner’s main sight)
15. Advanced land navigation system
16. New final drive with increased reduction ratio
17. Advanced running gear system
18. New track system
19. Mine plough

In addition, there are 74 “minor” improvements (adding up to 93 improvements in all) that are not really that minor. For example:

1. An improved sprocket wheel that modifies the manufacturing process from rolled homogenous armour (which required gas cutting and machining) to a forged sprocket which is 50% the cost, 50% easier to build and gives a longer life.

2. Another minor modification is the incorporation of stainless steel fuel tanks. The painting required for the insides of the earlier mild steel tanks was creating residue that clogged the fuel lines and filters. But stainless steel requires no painting.

3. Internal electrical wiring has been comprehensively re-laid, incorporating the dozens of modifications that have been incrementally carried out over the years. The wiring has now been laid systematically, making it easier to track and repair.

4. The radio harness has been modified, and internal communications are now digital. That makes it easier to integrate audio alarms and provides an SMS facility between the crew (how ‘bout sum chai?). It is totally noise free… now the crew can communicate easily.

5. Another improvement is the incorporation of a new compact Auxillary Power Unit (APU), which provides 8 KW of electrical power (uprated from the existing 4.5 KW APU). This requirement is based on fresh load budgeting calculations, allowing the tank to operate in “silent mode” with the additional electronics… also keeping a cushion for future electronic enhancements.

Of these 93 modifications, 45 have already been tested during trials in summer 2011… having been incorporated on one "improved Arjun Mk I" tank. A second tank is being cut open to put in three major modifications, including the commander’s panoramic sight Mk II.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 01 Jul 2015 20:58

Rahul, this is the least I can do. Unfortunately, I'm just another it-vity type, although with an engineering background, and so do not possess the deep knowledge that others bring to the topic. What I can do is to create a public area to collect and collate this knowledge and disseminate it using those it-vity skills to people who otherwise would not visit BR, or have the patience to read through the forums.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2015 22:24

the deficiencies in the T90 and russian games like not giving fire control computer details to integrate domestic ammo which had to be rectified later at great effort and cost have to be highlighted and collated.

its scam started from its initial price which was deflated by keeping std equipment like missiles and thermals out of the unit cost shown to parliament to make it seem cheaper than arjun.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 01 Jul 2015 23:14

Rahul M wrote:take it to somewhere like petition.org and create a campaign. link it to twitter with a catchy hashtag for multiplier effect.

the article has to lucidly explain why killing arjun is a really bad step, with clearly understandable (to laypersons) datapoints and be succinct enough for folk to actually read it all.

No, I disagree. The lay person may be impressed with the Arjun but they are not mil geeks like BRFites, and they importance simply does not resonate with them. They won't vote one way or the other based on the decision on a tank, and they won't make the effort to save it.

The best way to convince the political class is to scare them. Raise the scam alert on DGMF's efforts to scuttle the Arjun in favor on tin cans. There are very good foundations for trying to do this, considering how opaque the DGMF has been. Rather than just send notes to the political leadership, also send these notes to the opposition. The best way to get support for Arjun is to get the opposition to run with the 'T-90 scam' story, and therefore the best course of action is to feed the hands of the opposition, not merely the leadership...

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 02 Jul 2015 00:14

The "opposition" are the ones beholden to the largesse in the first place. Acting as handmaidens for the better part....

For the uninitiated, lutyens delhi across party lines strongly believes in sharing is caring wala farmoulah.

After haranguing eachother in parliament for the day, they will during the whisky hour in their lawns discuss favours, incentives and schemes.

It is far from the black and white world we imagine it to be.....

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 02 Jul 2015 00:18

In politics you can support something one day when you're in power, and oppose it the next day when you're not. All I'm saying is, #T90Scam gets a lot more eyeballs and a lot more interest than #SaveTheArjun.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Jul 2015 00:22

suraj, T-90 was first ordered in NDA-1 era. the scam angle might backfire, reducing its usefulness.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 02 Jul 2015 01:27

All the more reason why it would compel this administration to put the brakes on further T-90 acquisition, if the matter becomes hot enough, politically.

LakshO · Post by **LakshO** » 02 Jul 2015 05:39

Rahul M wrote:suraj, T-90 was first ordered in NDA-1 era. the scam angle might backfire, reducing its usefulness.

Sir,

NDA-I was between 1998/99-2004. Was Arjun MBT available in its present form at that time? I thought Arjun was refined to present config beginning 2008. NDA-I may have bought T90s from Russia as Arjun of that day wasn't to Army's expectations.

Now that Arjun Mk1/Mk2 are able to surpass T90s in all vital parameters, it would be quite a scandal to order more T90s when domestic 'Make in India' Arjun Mk1/Mk2 are available and more importantly, end user is happy with the product.

Just my 2 paise!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Jul 2015 07:51

LakhO, you dont need to convince me ! it was a limited panic buy as a reaction to the T-80 acquisition by TSPA. but if media will spin it otherwise.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jul 2015 09:25

we should not de-link babooze-politics and IA-politics, as in both lies the Venn-of-evil-clout system to engage the back-scratchers.

the inside-jobers can't be ignored.. although it might appear CT. until proven not-guilty in this case, we must consider all types of men/wimmen as culpable against national interests.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jul 2015 09:29

Is that just the camouflage paint appearance or they did add the additional side ERAs?

ps: perhaps they did!

===
here they show the additional skirts, but I don't see in any other real pic

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jul 2015 09:36

^^is this the Arjun or the japanese tank?

i think the other discussion group got it all wrong
http://www.armyrecognition.com/india_in ... gence.html

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 02 Jul 2015 09:42

Political leadership in India normally goes by armed forces& babu recommendations. We can presume that both of them recommended for t90. The small order of arjun also done for the same reason. The only solution may be to order replacing of all the damaged and retired tanks with Arjun. My understaning is we retire 50 tanks per year and all of them can be replaced by Arjun.

Also order 1000-2000 bodies of Arjuns in various versions - to be used for Bhim, bridge laying and even heavy APCs, Anti AC gun/Missile system and even Nag carrier. I am sure the present body if can used for 130mm gun system it can also be used for other purpose. Already the bridge system is developed. Once we start production going with common spare parts etc it will get lot cheaper

By the way Arjun has 1400Hp engine Right. It was shown above as 1500hp. Am I wrong?

srin · Post by **srin** » 02 Jul 2015 09:46

SaiK wrote:^^is this the Arjun or the japanese tank?

i think the other discussion group got it all wrong
http://www.armyrecognition.com/india_in ... gence.html

Not Arjun - Arjun has 7 wheels, this one has 6.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jul 2015 09:53

interestingly, the skirt design may fit arjun as well.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Jul 2015 10:26

Skirt panel widths can be made larger,as seen on the T-15/Armata (it would be interesting to know what the min.gap should be to defeat tandem warheads),but the overall width has to be such that it can fit into our heavy-lift transports.From the basic stats,the A-2 compares very favourably with the Challenger,also a 4-man crewed tank.Reducing the no. of older T-72 upgrades and ordering more Arjuns instead,is one option where the IA can both balance its budget for AVs and maintain healthy numbers.The arty requirement is at least of equal importance,if not greater.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 02 Jul 2015 10:42

That is why we may have to go for Bhim arty system, with greater commonality etc.

vonkabra · Post by **vonkabra** » 02 Jul 2015 13:48

Hobbes wrote:Rahul, this is the least I can do. Unfortunately, I'm just another it-vity type, although with an engineering background, and so do not possess the deep knowledge that others bring to the topic. What I can do is to create a public area to collect and collate this knowledge and disseminate it using those it-vity skills to people who otherwise would not visit BR, or have the patience to read through the forums.

Any thoughts on a FB campaign - there's a thriving "Save the A-10" community on Facebook. Might be a good complement...

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 02 Jul 2015 14:20

Suraj wrote:In politics you can support something one day when you're in power, and oppose it the next day when you're not. All I'm saying is, #T90Scam gets a lot more eyeballs and a lot more interest than #SaveTheArjun.

True.
Prima-facie, this does look like a scam of huge proportions. The indigenous R&D & MIC is being undermined along with the promise of make-in-India and second-rate imports are being favoured. The only reason must be a scam. If past is an indicator, then the defence deals are generally rife with scams. Rajiv Gandhi had lost power due to bofors scam even though bofors was a good gun which proved itself in Kargil. Here, Arjun seems better than T90. So, by all indicators, this seems like a scam which cannot be defended.

So, #T90Scam would generate more eyeballs quickly. And kongis and aapturds might jump in to help. And Aapturds are very good at trending topics. Generally, BJP supporters are nationalists, so they might also be positively inclined.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Jul 2015 17:22

In the AV td.when the Armata series of AVs was unveiled,there were some excellent posts pf pics of the tank,AVs,highlighting from the top view with arrows,of the location of the various details of sensors,weaponry,etc.
It would be extremely useful if we had a similar drawing/pic of the A-2 highlighting its features. I'm not sure if this has been done in the past or if their is a DRDO brochure of the same.

PS:I can't see any "T-90 scam" in comparison with Bofors.Go back into the chronology.The T-90s were ordered long before Arjun matured as a knee-jerk reaction to Paki acquisition of T-80UDs on the cheap from the UKR. The IA then decided that the T-90 would replace the t-72 as the IA's main MBT and acquired in large number. It is after the face-off tests when Arjun proved itself superior in many respects to the T-90 that future MBT acquisitions ,T-90s instead of Arjun could come into question.The recent report about X no. of deficiencies in the Mk-1 adds to the confusion.MK-2 has now arrived and from most reports has made the grade. The decision or lack of a decision why Arjuns are not being ordered is an item of major debate and criticism certainly can be laid at the IA's doorstep,MOD,etc.,but by itself does not constitute a scam.
The IA/MOD could turn around and give another side of the story and the debate will go on and on.

However,in the case of Bofors,it was reported by Swedish media that kickbacks were taken by Indians for the Bofors gun. Chitra Subramaniam of the Hindu brought out further exposes implicating the Hindujas,Win Chaddha,Quattrochi ,etc. Martin Ardbo of Bofors in his diaries also left vital clues as to the recipients of the scam by their initials,and other details which alleged at kickbacks being recd. by Rajiv/Sonia's closest bum chum Quattrochi. Olaf Palme's assassination was also alleged by some to the Bofors deal.The Congress left a trail of evidence in its wake,which led to the defeat of the party in the next election. Unless someone comes up with similar concrete evidence that T-90s were ordered to serve vested interests,leaving a paper trail,etc.,like Bofors,it will remain in the realm of speculation. The Tatra scam is an example where concrete evidence is available.

As for the BJP,I seriously doubt that it will behave like the Congress.The manner in which defence decisions are being fast-tracked after a decade of dereliction of duty by AKA and Snake-Oil Singh,shows its good intentions. A true mess has been the legacy of the Cong/UPA reg. India's security,indigenisation,etc.The DRDO,DPSUs need urgent restructuring.We are currently in a state of flux as regards "make in India",etc. In many respects we simply do not have the mil-tech base where we can develop in a short time the various mil-tech required for all 3 services. The govt. is juggling the problem of greater with indigenisation/manufacture in India of milware ,while being forced to rely on expensive imports to keep up our sagging mil capability in the face of the relentless Chinese mil expansion and modernisation,far outpacing India.It is barely a year old in govt. Give it a break.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Jul 2015 17:31

Philip
Can you at least stop posting about the Armata in this thread?
2 posts and you find ways to bring the crap in this thread too!!!

The armor thread is corrupted with that garbage - post that nonsense there.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Jul 2015 17:47

It may be crap to you,but not to many others.All I've asked is for similar drawings/pics for the A-2 highlighting its features.What's the harm, in that? Why do you have to be such a negative individual? If you don't like what I say,don't read my posts like some others.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 02 Jul 2015 18:24

Philip wrote:It may be crap to you,but not to many others

What others?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 02 Jul 2015 20:26

@Surya - My initial thought as well... and i was about to put it down

But the very next moment it struck me - the MBT Arjun can meet, and beat, the T-90 on any battlefield - the real and the virtual (thanks to BRF)

So bring it on

PS: having said that i would still hope for this thread to primarily showcase quality posts about the MBT Arjun... something which happened to the JSF thread

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jul 2015 20:54

Folks this thread is about Arjun. Don't bring in other tanks.
thanks,

ramana

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 02 Jul 2015 21:22

SaiK wrote:

Is that just the camouflage paint appearance or they did add the additional side ERAs?

ps: perhaps they did!

I dont think its additional ERA, it's just a "dabba" to store knick-knacks and stuff.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 02 Jul 2015 21:26

Rahul M wrote:LakhO, you dont need to convince me ! it was a limited panic buy as a reaction to the T-80 acquisition by TSPA. but if media will spin it otherwise.

Who cares ? In 2019 there will be voters who were not even born during the 1999 purchase. No one votes based on Bofors, and no one cares about NDA-1. What happened in 1999-00 is water under the bridge. Is there a T-90 scam potential today ? Very much so, unless PMO reins in the DGMF in favour of the Arjun. That's all that matters. And the best way to skewer the scam is to use the opposition as 'useful idiots' to stir up the matter.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 03 Jul 2015 04:48

I think that Arjun will eventually be inducted in substantial numbers. Parrikar just got the LCA and artillery program going. Things are slowly starting to shift toward homegrown products. SVR and arms dealers probably have assets within DGMF and have been blackmailing successive governments. It will be tricky, but I think he can pull it off. He is a smart man and doubt he is oblivious to it.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 03 Jul 2015 06:51

What are the most recent figures on the price and associated costs of the MBT Arjun Mark 2.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 03 Jul 2015 09:52

with 500 units order costs will come down. Assembly line is now idle for many years, while we screwdriver t90s in vast numbers.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Jul 2015 09:58

Why 500 only? We should scrap the T-72 and buy 2000 Arjuns instead. That would reduce overhead costs and spur local engine research and development.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Jul 2015 10:25

Going back to Manish's post from BSwd.,I was intrigued by design improvements asked for for the arjun.Interior painting of fuel tanks,residue clogging filters,MS being replaced by SS,etc.Is there any past info reg. faults on T-90/72s of a similar nature? The point I'm trying to make is whether other tanks have SS fuel tanks or not ,are experiencing similar problems and how have they overcome this problem if they are of MS. Since we've been operating for decades T-series tanks,would've had a huge amt. of feedback and in developing the Arjun would've also examined western MBT designs in great detail,could some of these niggling problems have been avoided by following established designs/tech?

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 03 Jul 2015 10:34

[Sarcasm]
T-90 errors were part of inevitable adaptation needed for Indian conditions but all Arjun limitations are design faults.
[/Sarcasm]

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 03 Jul 2015 10:58

I wonder how much of that differential treatment is "benign". If you criticize the T90 you are criticizing the procurement and evaluation folks in your own institution, they should have caught the faults. Also rectifying this involves negotiations. If you criticize the arjun, you are criticizing next door factory that made them. Rectifying shortcomings is a demand.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Jul 2015 15:36

Prahar, really? You have a lot to read. True Costs of the T90 were disguised to make it appear cheap. That is pure and simple fraud. The very fact that Arun came out at least as good as the T90 in IAs biased comparative trials should have been good enough to order it in large numbers. Yet in keeping with its glorious ways, IA chose to order another 1000 T90s.

Lies about TOT and now requests to DRDO to help put airconditoning Units in the tank, it is obvious that IA is leading the country towards financial ruin and ultimately to insecurity. There needs to be an independent audit of IA's decision making process that led to the purchase of the T90. Let the truth come out.

We are mortgaging the future of several generations to Russia without any benefit to India. This is a matter of great shame.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 03 Jul 2015 15:48

^I think he was being sarcastic.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jul 2015 15:48

from horse's mouth:
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2010/02/t ... ur-of.html

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 4th Feb, 2010

On August 24 last year, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) dressed up failure as achievement when — almost nine years after India bought the T-90 tank from Russia — the first 10 built-in-India T-90s were ceremonially rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90’s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

The story of the T-90 has been coloured by deception and obfuscation from even before the tank was procured. Business Standard has pieced together, from internal documents and multiple interviews with MoD sources, an account of how the Indian Army has saddled itself with an underperforming, yet overpriced, version of the Russian T-90.

The deception stemmed from the army’s determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued — allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production — that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russia’s army had spurned the T-90.

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia’s arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India’s T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan’s anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.

The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India’s pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army’s recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident — and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan — that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90’s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn’t work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90’s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world’s current tanks, other than France’s LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India’s Arjun tank, too, has “hardened” electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip India’s eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.

Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s’ drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.

“It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank,” says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. “Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further.”

If the Arjun performs strongly in next month’s comparative trials around Suratgarh and Pokhran, that order could be in the offing.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 03 Jul 2015 15:58

^The above amounts to treason. There must be court-martials for the officers of the DGMF.