MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

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Philip
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

If the above report (2010) is true,then what did the Cong/UPA do for the remaining 4 years when it was in office? Why did it keep silent? Secondly,why didn't the combined Opposition take up this matter in parliament? There is also a parliamentary standing committee on defence,which has in the past pulled up various regimes on various issues. What was its stand on the issue? The CAG did make its observations known,posted many a time esp. regarding the comparative trials,A-1 besting the T-90.Lastly,have all the alleged defects/missing items of eqpt. on T-90s been rectified? Does it meet the IA's performance specs today,since we are producing T-90s even now? The viewpoints of other chiefs apart from Gen.Chowdhury are also required.Did they accept a substandard tank or what? If so why?

Reg Arjun,in the post above dated 2011 about rectification of 45 of 90 odd requirements,4 years have passed. One would imagine that the balance have been rectified,unless there has been more goalpost shifting. The only reason for not ordering more would be the cost factor.
We also need to know what are the approx. costs for T-90s bought outright,produced in India as well as Arjun costs Mk-1/2 ,T-72 upgrades,etc.,so that a clearer picture can be obtained. There is also a considerable import content in the Arjun,engine for example.Are costs of such imported eqpt. remaining stable? The IA's budget for the armoured corps and planned projection may be classified,but wherever there is open source info it could be collated.

A Mk-2 is certainly better than A Mk-1 and certainly better than old T-72s up for upgrade,unless these upgrades are extremely cost-effective. After an upgrade,how much better will a T-72UG be and where will it compare with a T-90,A-1,A-2 for example? At best they make up numbers and keep numbers of MBTs in the reserves happy.After decades of development ,goalpost shifting,etc.,there are precious little technical arguments left why the A-2 should not be ordered in significant number.If there are then the country needs to know why. There is more openness in IA,IN requirements,which are being debated ad nauseum in other tds. However,as far as the IA is concerned,there seems to be a "fog of war" clouding some issues,esp. procurement of AVs,MBTs,etc.
Viv S
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

Forget the twitter business. Writing to the govt is more or less a waste of time as well.

What we need to is write to an individual who has the conviction, credibility and experience to make the Arjun's case at the highest levels. Ideally that should have been someone from CVRDE but that lot appears to have been robbed of their dignity & confidence, willing to settle for the meagre scraps that the IA (reluctantly) throws their way.

What we need is to get in touch with Gen Shankar Roychowdhury. Four star general. Career tank-man. War veteran. Former MP. Closely associated with the Arjun project. He's 77 years old and perhaps resigned to the prospect of the Arjun project getting shafted, as the nation remains oblivious to it and the govt remains willing to by the 'professional' recommendations of the Army.

Writing to him, convincing him that there are people out there that care, might be just what's needed. A chat between him and the Raksha Mantri, perhaps with a page or two from the CAG report to start the conversation might be our best hope at this stage.

Question is, does anyone know how to get in touch with him? Can we write to a retired army officer through 56 APO?
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

Arun Menon wrote:
Philip wrote:It may be crap to you,but not to many others
What others? :roll:
What others, indeed?
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

abhik wrote:Image


I dont think its additional ERA, it's just a "dabba" to store knick-knacks and stuff.
Doubt it. If it was a 'dabba' they wouldn't have bother to mould one that blends with the forward ERA tiles. Better to design a boxier unit with greater storage capacity. There's a good probability that it contains some form of composite armour or NERA unit.
Philip
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

What others? If it is being touted ...and is from media reports,for the IA for a poss. future acquisition,it has an immense bearing upon our indigenous AV design/dev future,esp. the proposed FMBT.Ignoring it is akin to wearing blinkers. Is the IA girding its loins to dump the A-2 and demand an FMBT like/or the aforementioned new product from Uralvagonzavod? Remember,all I asked for in the earlier post was a drawing/pic of the A-2 identifying the location and showing off its features in similar manner as was done for the UV product.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

Though we've tended to dismiss the infamous case with commodore as an isolated event, one does wonder how many officers were successfully turned by the Russians, with the folks at South Block being none the wiser.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

What about Tatra,HDW,Scorpene,Bofors,etc.? What about the blacklisted Western,Israeli,SPore cos too?All arms manufacturers behave the same way if we have corrupt scumbags wanting their cut.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:What about Tatra,HDW,Scorpene,Bofors,etc.? What about the blacklisted Western,Israeli,SPore cos too?All arms manufacturers behave the same way if we have corrupt scumbags wanting their cut.
None of them get any support, not on this forum at least. On the other hand, visibly crooked deals with the Russians continue to have at least one indefatigable champion.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by tsarkar »

Its just a plain utility box. You would've found it open in Defexpo / photos

Just adding ERA + mine plough added two tonnes, all around ERA coverage would add more weight.

NERA is just metal plates sandwiching compressive material like rubber or neoprene. Not effective and AFAIK no one has adopted it.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by eklavya »

Viv S wrote:What we need to is write to an individual who has the conviction, credibility and experience to make the Arjun's case at the highest levels.
Try this individual:

http://meatel.nic.in/?650020

GEN. (DR) V.K. SINGH (RETD)
MINISTER OF STATE
SB 141
Intercom:
23011141, 23014070, 23794337 (O) Phone
23011425Fax
mosvksmea.gov.in Email
Viv S
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

eklavya wrote:
Viv S wrote:What we need to is write to an individual who has the conviction, credibility and experience to make the Arjun's case at the highest levels.
Try this individual:

http://meatel.nic.in/?650020

GEN. (DR) V.K. SINGH (RETD)
MINISTER OF STATE
SB 141
Intercom:
23011141, 23014070, 23794337 (O) Phone
23011425Fax
mosvksmea.gov.in Email
Will try. All the same, fact is he's not in the MoD so I'm not confident about an email reaching him personally, instead of being filtering away as 'irrelevant' by the layers of bureaucracy surrounding him at the MEA.

More dishearteningly, despite his enthusiasm for a clean-up of the army, I've never heard much from him with regard to indigenization. While he made some lukewarm statements on the Arjun, he refused to commit to more orders despite it pretty much being a proven tank at that point. All the same, I'm willing to give him the benefit of doubt - while he has commanded a strike corps, at his roots he's a career infantryman, so maybe as COAS he was taking his cues from the DGMF.

I'll of course write to him. But I'd still like to get in touch with Gen S. Roychowdhury, who in my opinion would be a much stronger (albeit less influential) advocate for the Arjun.

Question to forum: Does anyone know how one can reach Gen Roychowdhury? An email ID or preferably a mailing address.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by vaibhav.n »

Viv,

Ideally the guy to start with would be BC Khanduri. Old guard but still highly respected, was the BJP's chief whip for LS till '04. This year Namo got him back on a committee in the Transport Ministry.

He presides over the Standing Committee on Defence and can summon everyone less the service chiefs from the VCOAS to the Defence Secretary.

His contact details:http://164.100.47.132/LssNew/Members/Bi ... ?mpsno=196

OR try Ram Madhav....he is the in-house defence affairs specialist with tremendous pull.
Philip
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

Yes Viv,the MOD/GOI! Who places the orders for def. eqpt.? But why the total silence on non-Russian scams? You don't see anyone ranting and railing against them in the manner that a few do about Russian deals.In any case if anyone is unhappy buying from Russia,go to the US/West! Why can't the US supply instead the same tech that we're getting from Russia,say Virginia class SSNs,N-sub reactors,JSF stealth tech,etc.Pity,they have no equiv. to the BMos missile,but SM-3 SAMs would be fine for the IN. Why didn't the "Carter" bring on his cart some real cutting edge goodies?
Viv S
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:Yes Viv,the MOD/GOI! Who places the orders for def. eqpt.? But why the total silence on non-Russian scams? You don't see anyone ranting and railing against them in the manner that a few do about Russian deals.In any case if anyone is unhappy buying from Russia,go to the US/West! Why can't the US supply instead the same tech that we're getting from Russia,say Virginia class SSNs,N-sub reactors,JSF stealth tech,etc.Pity,they have no equiv. to the BMos missile,but SM-3 SAMs would be fine for the IN. Why didn't the "Carter" bring on his cart some real cutting edge goodies?
Can you truly not understand the difference between choosing from between weapons built by foreign OEMs, and choosing between an Indian product and an imported one? Is there 'total silence' on the Military Helicopters thread? Did I mishear all the criticism on the Apache. And at least in the Apache's case, it featured a very obvious tactical advantage over its local counterpart (i.e LCH).

When it comes to Arjun and T-90, it is nothing but corruption. No one's too perturbed when an individual supports a Russian product over a European one, or a European one over an American one, or an American one over a Russian one.

But it is nauseating to see an Indian supporting the acquisition of a foreign product over a comparable Indian one, let alone a superior one (as in the Arjun's case). Regardless of whether its an individual in uniform or a BRFite. No amount justification, spin or finger-pointing will change that.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

vaibhav.n wrote:Viv,

Ideally the guy to start with would be BC Khanduri. Old guard but still highly respected, was the BJP's chief whip for LS till '04. This year Namo got him back on a committee in the Transport Ministry.

He presides over the Standing Committee on Defence and can summon everyone less the service chiefs from the VCOAS to the Defence Secretary.

His contact details:http://164.100.47.132/LssNew/Members/Bi ... ?mpsno=196

OR try Ram Madhav....he is the in-house defence affairs specialist with tremendous pull.
Cheers. :)

Would also like to request the others on the forum, well.. most others anyway, to perhaps take out 10-15 minutes from their day, to write a letter or two. Preferably handwrite it (I doubt the Sansad email accounts are checked with any frequency).



Maj Gen (Retd) B.C. Khanduri
7, K. Kamraj Lane,
New Delhi - 110 011
bc.khanduri@nic.in


Gen (Retd) V.K. Singh
36, Aurangzeb Road,
New Delhi - 110011
vksingh.mp@sansad.nic.in


Gen (Retd) Shankar Roy Chowdhury
FE-238, Sector-3
Salt Lake City
Kolkata
shankarc@sansad.nic.in


Ram Madhav
http://www.rammadhav.in/contact/
deejay
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by deejay »

^^^ VivS, great effort their. Will try and do my bit. I really think we need to push the Arjun Tank over the T 90.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Image
https://twitter.com/CestMoiz/status/617735750080139264


this is a blatant corruption pointer. imho.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Mukesh.Kumar »

General Roychowdhury's given address is very close to my home. I am going home early August. I will hand deliver a letter to the address. If you guys want maybe we can write a letter with e-signatures and give it then. But would need someone more knowledgeable to draft it.
kancha
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by kancha »

This dhaga just went (somewhat) mainstream!

Image
Philip
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

If you've read my posts carefully instead of ranting and raving at my preferring a firang tank to a desi product ,you will see that I have repeatedly advocated ordering more Arjun Mk-2s reducing T-72 upgrades (unless there are strong eco/budgetary reasons for doing so,upgrading T-72s to keep MBT numbers in the inventory happy),since the tank (A-2) has met virtually all the improvements the IA has asked for. If as an article posted in the AV td says that we still have 600+ T-55s in the inventory, there is all the more reason to replace them with as many A-2s (first priority) as we can afford.

I have also said that a cost-effective study should be made for T-72UGs,vs firang/desi built T-90s,vs new A-2s,since some reports in the recent past have reported of MOD deciding to buy more T-90s bought outright from Russia.The report below alleges that local production is below par,the reason for imports. A few years ago,IDR reported in a lengthy feature on our AV ambitions,that we would be facing a serious production problem given the number of diff. programmes and whether Avadi was up to it. Other reports say that the Arjun production line has been idle for want of orders.What is the truth of this? Whatever the truth of the matter,it is the responsibility of the GOI/MOD to minutely examine the entire issue of the IA's MBT/AV plans for the present and future and chart out a road map where indigenous MBT/AV efforts that meet the grade are not sacrificed for the sake of firang interests.

http://in.rbth.com/
India to purchase 124 T-90 tanks from Russia
23/12/2014
The Indian Ministry of Defence has decided to purchase 124 Т-90 tanks from Russia, to assemble 272 from Russian parts and another 300 using its own resources, writes tribuneindia.com today.

The decision was dictated by a 40% short fall in tank production by local industry. Instead of the planned 300 Т-90 tanks which were to be produced locally, the industry was able to manufacture only 167 vehicles by 2013.
The production of 124 Indian designed Arjun tanks was also scheduled.
Wik:I believe this has been posted earlier.
As per Rahul Bhonsle, a retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analist As of 2015, nearly 75 percent of the 124 tanks with the Army are grounded.Most of India's homemade Arjun Mark-1 battle tank fleet has been grounded because of technical snags and lack of imported components,nearly 55 percent of the value of the tank is imported components and those supplies have dried up.[19] DRDO spokesperson expressed his view that if there is large number of tanks ordered then, there will be lesser issue of spares due to high indigenous content and less imports.[citation needed]

The tank came for praise from top Chinese military official who said Arjun is a very good tank and suited for Indian conditions.[20]
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:If you've read my posts carefully instead of ranting and raving at my preferring a firang tank to a desi product ,you will see that I have repeatedly advocated ordering more Arjun Mk-2s reducing T-72 upgrades (unless there are strong eco/budgetary reasons for doing so,upgrading T-72s to keep MBT numbers in the inventory happy),since the tank (A-2) has met virtually all the improvements the IA has asked for. If as an article posted in the AV td says that we still have 600+ T-55s in the inventory, there is all the more reason to replace them with as many A-2s (first priority) as we can afford.

Yeah sorry buddy, but no dice. That you don't want to entirely to kill off the Arjun doesn't win you any brownie points here. Every single T-90 inducted by us after the first batch contracted in 2001, is one less order that should have gone to the Arjun. And yes the Arjun should entirely replace the T-55 & T-72, that's an obvious fact not some great concession on your part.

I have also said that a cost-effective study should be made for T-72UGs,vs firang/desi built T-90s,vs new A-2s,since some reports in the recent past have reported of MOD deciding to buy more T-90s bought outright from Russia.

Did the Russians carry out a 'cost-effective study' comparing the T-90 and Type 99? Did the Americans carry out a 'cost effective study' between the M1 and Leopard? Did the French carry out a 'cost effective study' between the Leclerc and Challenger? Fact is, the French bought a French tank, the Russians bought a Russian tank, the Israelis bought an Israeli tank.

Nobody out there is making a magnanimous effort to strike a damned 'balance' between a locally developed weapon and an import.

The report below alleges that local production is below par,the reason for imports.

Oh really? Nothing to do with the Russians defaulting on their ToT obligations as specified in a signed contract? Nothing to do with the years spent translating technical manuals & drawings printed in Cyrillic? Nothing to do with the fact that HVF was forced to approach the DRDO to develop domestic replacements for the armour and barrel?

What is the truth of this? Whatever the truth of the matter,it is the responsibility of the GOI/MOD to minutely examine the entire issue of the IA's MBT/AV plans for the present and future and chart out a road map where indigenous MBT/AV efforts that meet the grade are not sacrificed for the sake of firang interests.

Sadly the Russians somehow never seem to count as 'firang' in your calculus.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by hanumadu »

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 2h2 hours ago
#SavetheArjunTank is a great idea. BRF, DFI, IDF et al should run a coordinated campaign on this.
Saurav Jha started #SavetheArjunTank. Please trend it.
Viv S
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

hanumadu wrote:
Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 2h2 hours ago
#SavetheArjunTank is a great idea. BRF, DFI, IDF et al should run a coordinated campaign on this.
Saurav Jha started #SavetheArjunTank. Please trend it.
I don't know.. for some reason that phrase irks me. Its not a charity case - it deserves to be ordered because its superior than everything else in our inventory including the T-90 (and has better growth prospects).

I'd feel much happier with a #Support_the_Arjun_Tank instead.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Manish_P »

I concur

I would have been much happier with #Support_our_Arjun or #Made_in_India_Arjun
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by RoyG »

How about creating a change.org page?
ramana
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Philip et al. The original Arjun weighed 60 tons and was found too heavy for transportation. With IA suggested improvements carried out Arjun Mk2 weighs 64 tons. So which logistics person would sign on to this? Unless these Arjun Mk2 regiments are fielded at the border it is going to be hell to upgrade all the bridges etc.

Would like the folks who demanded those improvements make the case for their stance.

Only one who wants to sabotage will demand all those weight gain suggestions.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Rahul M »

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:General Roychowdhury's given address is very close to my home. I am going home early August. I will hand deliver a letter to the address. If you guys want maybe we can write a letter with e-signatures and give it then. But would need someone more knowledgeable to draft it.
not sure if it still works but I have his old phone no. plz give me a ping if you want it in order to set an appointment.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by kancha »

Ramana Ji,
How were the Arjuns transported to Rajasthan to the first armoured regiment, and later for trials? Any inputs on this?
TIA
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Raveen »

ramana wrote:Philip et al. The original Arjun weighed 60 tons and was found too heavy for transportation. .

Except the railways called BS on that claim. So saboteurs don't even need facts.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Raveen, That's good news. Can we research the IR capability to transport heavy loads like Arjun Mk2?
fanne
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by fanne »

It was not the weight but the width, it would have interfered with the side poles that railway has (not sure about the validity of the claim)
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by vaibhav.n »

Military vehicles are transported on two types of railway wagons;

BFAT Wagons for A Vehicles

BOMN Wagons for B Vehicles

ASC Tank Transporter Companies then transport them to the AoR via these; 65tonTrailer

None however have a payload capacity for the mk2's 68tons and will need minor modifications. Our assault bridges (PMS and BLT's) is the core area of concern and will have to be built up if we are serious of actually inducting Mk2's.

We can even induct armoured ferry's like this to work Armoured Amphibious Ferry
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Vayutuvan »

ramana wrote:So which logistics person would sign on to this? Unless these Arjun Mk2 regiments are fielded at the border it is going to be hell to upgrade all the bridges etc.
Don't most civil works have a safety margin of 50% while designing? Of course, there is always the possibility of more sand percentage than allowed. Still what I heard that it used to be the practice to actually put a 100% safety margin to account for contractors' greed.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 06 Jul 2015 23:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

Good enough for China, but India spurns Arjun


For some inexplicable reason, the army prefers to use Russian armour; Arjun is deployed in only two of its 63 armoured regiments

Ajai Shukla | New Delhi July 6, 2015

Chinese experts have given a thumbs up to the Arjun main battle tank (MBT), even as India's own army continues to sideline it, inexplicably preferring to continue a four-decade-long dependence on Russian armoured vehicles.

Last week, a senior People's Liberation Army (PLA) officer at its premier tank design institution, the Academy of Armoured Forces Engineering in Beijing, told visiting Indian journalists that the Arjun tank is "very good", and well suited for Indian conditions.

This could hardly have been pro forma politeness, as PLA is not given to praising India's military capabilities. It would appear that PLA officers, who work closely with China's defence industry in developing their new Main Battle Tank 3000 (MBT3000, also called VT-4), seem more aware than their Indian counterparts of the challenges and benefits of developing an indigenous MBT.

In contrast, India's military has stood aloof, criticising and even undermining the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) as it struggled to design the Arjun tank.

To this day, the army has ordered only 122 Arjuns, the defence ministry told Parliament on April 24. The Arjun equips just two of the army's 63 armoured regiments -the 43rd and 75th Armoured Regiments.

In comparison, the army has almost 2,500 T-72 tanks, many of which are night-blind and nearing the end of their 32-year service lives. The army will also have 1,657 of the more modern T-90S tanks, being built under licence from Russia by the Heavy Vehicle Factory, Avadi, near Chennai.

While the army's vehement opposition to the Arjun was often valid in initial years, the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment eventually overcame a series of glitches that dogged early versions of the tank.

In March 2010, the Arjun outperformed the Russian T-90S, the army's premier tank, in comparative trials near Bikaner. The trials, attended by the army chief and top generals, sent shock waves through the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces, the nodal office for armoured and mechanised regiments and their tanks and infantry combat vehicles.

No respite

Yet, the army's opposition to the Arjun continued. Instead of the successful trials eliciting more orders, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces demanded from DRDO a long list of changes in the Arjun. DRDO was told to incorporate the modifications into a new variant, the Arjun Mark II. If that proved successful in trials, the army undertook to order another 118 Arjuns.

"DRDO is currently engaged in the development of MBT Arjun Mk-II with 73 improvements (including 15 major improvements) over MBT Arjun Mk-I. Out of these 73 improvements, 53 have been found successful based on User trials. No time line for induction into Army can be fixed at this stage (sic)", said the defence ministry in Parliament on April 24.

The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces has taken various positions on why it does not want the Arjun. For years, it argued that the 62-tonne Arjun was too heavy. It claimed the tank would get bogged down in desert sands, and that bridges and culverts on Indian border roads could not withstand such heavy load. The army also complained the tank was too wide to be transported by railway.

This notion was comprehensively disproved during the comparative trials, when the Arjun proved more mobile than the lighter, 42-tonne T-90S, even on soft desert sand. A "third-party evaluation" done by Israel Military Industries, which had developed the highly regarded Merkava tank, concluded the Arjun would outrun most tanks.

Then, even while continuing to argue that the Arjun was too heavy, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces' demand for 73 modifications to the Arjun quite predictably resulted in the tank becoming even heavier. The army's demand for Explosive Reactive Armour to protect the crew better added on one-and-a-half tonnes. Another one-and-a-half tonnes were added due to mine ploughs demanded by the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces which churn up the ground ahead of the tank's tracks, unearthing buried anti-tank mines. Numerous other modifications, including a commander's panoramic sight, slapped on another two tonnes. From 62 tonnes, the Arjun now weighs 67 tonnes.

Adding missile power

The Arjun Mark II is now held up by the army's insistence that it should fire an anti-tank guided missile through its main gun, which is actually designed to fire armour piercing and high explosive shells. DRDO approached Israel Aircraft Industry for its Lahat missile, which has not proved successful. Now, a Ukrainian design bureau has been approached for its Kombat missile.

Meanwhile, the modifications demanded by the army have doubled the Arjun's cost from its initial Rs 18 crore. On August 29, 2011, the defence ministry told Parliament, "The likely estimated cost of each MBT Arjun Mark-II with all major/minor improvements will be approximately Rs 37 crore."

Nor has the ill-fated Arjun project led to lessons being learnt on the need for cooperation between DRDO and the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces in designing and bringing to service a next-generation indigenous tank. For years, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces has been unable to specify the design requirements of the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), as the project was called. Each successive director general, traditionally a lieutenant general from the armoured corps, has brought his own ideas to the job, which have invariably diverged from those of his predecessor. In the circumstances, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces has not responded to repeated DRDO requests for clear specifications.

"There has been no discussion on the FMBT, or consensus building across the armoured corps. Each Directorate General of Mechanised Forces chief consults only with a narrow group of officers around him. Without corps-wide consensus, naturally there would be divergent views," says a senior officer serving in the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces.

Without any idea of what kind of FMBT it wants, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces has now abdicated that decision entirely. In a Request for Information last month that has sent shock waves through the defence industry, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces asked tank manufacturers across the world to propose the design for a "new generation, state-of-the-art combat vehicle platform" that it has dubbed the Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV).

A retired senior tank officer points out: "An army that keeps abreast with tank design should not need to ask global vendors the specifications of its future tank. Vendors would, in any case, be guided by their commercial interests rather than by Indian operational requirements."

Another striking feature in the new FRCV proposal is DRDO's sidelining. With a foreign vendor leading the design process, and cobbling together a consortium to manufacture the tank, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces -and, in acquiescing, the defence ministry -has abandoned the option of translating DRDO's experience and expertise gained on the Arjun into a next-generation indigenous tank.

Going by past experience, the FRCV proposal too could end up in the trash can. If the government goes by the principle of seniority, the army chief after General Dalbir Singh will be an armoured corps officer, General Pravin Bakshi. Like other senior tank-men, he has been excluded from the FRCV proposal. Defence watchers believe a new decision will be taken, and DRDO is waiting in the wings to play its role.
Vayutuvan
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Vayutuvan »

Chinese experts have given a thumbs up to the Arjun main battle tank (MBT), even as India's own army continues to sideline it, inexplicably preferring to continue a four-decade-long dependence on Russian armoured vehicles.

Last week, a senior People's Liberation Army (PLA) officer at its premier tank design institution, the Academy of Armoured Forces Engineering in Beijing, told visiting Indian journalists that the Arjun tank is "very good", and well suited for Indian conditions.
No surprise there. They would, wouldn't they?
Gagan
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Gagan »

Hey
I've seen Arjuns being transported by rail. Don't have pictures.

At defexpo in dilli, one JCO told me that the tank was wider than the railway carriage, so they had to make sure it was well placed, loading had to be carefully done.

But no major problems per him.
nachiket
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by nachiket »

vaibhav.n wrote: None however have a payload capacity for the mk2's 68tons and will need minor modifications. Our assault bridges (PMS and BLT's) is the core area of concern and will have to be built up if we are serious of actually inducting Mk2's.
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That 68 ton number is including the mine plow correct? Do they transport the tanks with the mine plow attached?
ramana
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Looks like a lot of DGMF have undergone training from Col Klink.
The objective of all those new requirments is to handicap the Arjun so it wont be procured.

nachiket, Which tank carries anti-mine plow except in some DGMF sweet dreams. Its like Terminator gone wild and demanding all kind of Transformer type toys.

Next they rent Avatar and demand a tank that flies.
vaibhav.n
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by vaibhav.n »

Nachiket,

My bad, they would not indeed load up a tank with an anti mine plough. They have just made the tank more heavier with unending requirements like ERA etc.

Ramana Sir,

Armoured Regts have a trawl troop to neutralise enemy minefields. The KMT series does duty on roosi tin cans. Manually breaching minefields is time consuming.

DRDO has prototypes for a MLC70 BLT IIRC. We need an ARV also to support the Arjuns possibly even an Armoured Engineer variant.
Indranil
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

I admit that I don't understand tanks that much. But from following the developments of the Arjun for the past 7-8 years, I can only say one thing: Either, everything in the open source is wrong, or ...
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