1965 Indo-Pak War: News & Discussion

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Pratyush
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Pratyush »

Last night at 9 pm ist the discovery channel had a program on the hero's of 1965. It had the details on the MVC & PVC awardee. Along with a section on the. Keelor's
JTull
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by JTull »

Not related but perhaps we could recreate something like this.
UK is celebrating Battle of Britain victory in its own way. Follow the link to see how a day in battle unfolded. Nice running commentary!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/batt ... -live.html
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Vipul »

Info about the arms superiority pakistan had in the 65 war.

Even halfway decent - and honest - military historians will tell you that the 1965 war was the last one that Pakistan had a chance of winning against India. It had better equipment, more advanced technologies, better and more focused NATO-standard training, a clearer doctrine and strategic objectives. It seems difficult to believe now, but even internally and politically, Pakistan then looked more cohesive than did India, which faced Naga insurgency, Dravida separatism and an unstable Kashmir.

Most importantly, the initiative was fully with Pakistan. It had chosen its timing, place and method of launching that war. Its purpose was to wrest the Kashmir Valley. Its leadership had concluded, quite correctly, that India's military modernisation was very well under way after the 1962 debacle against China. Another couple of years of expansion, re-equipment and consolidation would have made it decisively stronger militarily.

They were not wrong. Consider these technological and hardware advantages Pakistan had in 1965, giving it a clear military edge on the ground, in the air and over the seas:

Pakistan's American-made Patton was by far the best in the subcontinent. You could argue that India's British-made Centurion was its equal, but there were two problems. One, India had too few of these heavy tanks (about a half of Pakistan's Pattons). As a result, the Indian army had to allocate these very carefully. The rest of India's tanks were Second World War Shermans, and light French AMXs. In fact, India's defensive brigade which fought the main Pakistani thrust in Chhamb had only two squadrons of AMXs. Two, no Indian tank was night-capable whereas the Patton was. The only Indian superiority was in having a larger number of infantry divisions. But, as Lt General Harbaksh Singh notes in his "War Despatches", many of these were fresh, post-1962 raisings and not yet settled or fully battle-ready.

Pakistan had decidedly superior artillery and a much larger number of higher caliber US-made guns. These often tilted the balance when used in a massed profile, particularly in the open tank-infantry battles in the Sialkot sector, a fact documented well by Lt General Harbakhsh. In fact, he says that both Pakistani equipment and doctrine of artillery use were superior. More than 75 per cent of Indian casualties were caused by artillery. Pakistan also had a headstart in special/commando forces, as the Special Services Group (SSG) was already formed.

In the air, sidewinder missiles on F-86 Sabre as well as F-104 Starfighter gave Pakistan's Air Force a clear edge. IAF was still in the gun age. The first MiG-21 squadron was still coming up, and had only nine planes with pilots under conversion training. Further, F-104 was fully night-capable, as were some F-86s. India had no night-capable fighter/interceptors. This gave Pakistani bombers safer passage to Indian bases at night whereas Indian night bombers were unescorted and vulnerable to PAF defenders. With C-130 Hercules, Pakistan had a way superior transport fleet, also more capable of paratroop operations, which it tried.

On the naval front, India had a larger fleet. But Pakistan was already in the submarine age with the US-gifted Ghazi. So Pakistan was a clear dimension ahead. The Indian navy had inadequacies in sonar and submarine detection, so it wasn't entirely capable of fighting in that dimension. India's lone carrier INS Vikrant was then in dry dock, but even if it had been active, it would have had limited impact.

It was with all these factors in mind that Ayub and Bhutto finally embarked on this war. Their presumptions of decisive superiority were confirmed in their minds by the poor performance of the Indian defensive brigade in the Kutch sector earlier that year. Even the IAF had avoided combat there, and Pakistanis misread that as a disinclination to fight. Coming as it did soon after 1962, Pakistan decided - rightly on paper - that this was their moment.

Why did it not work out that way? There are some reasons on which reputed and fair chroniclers of both sides now agree. These include:

Arrogance on the part of Pakistani commanders. Lack of respect for the opposition and a foolhardy tendency to declare victory too soon. A prime example is how its brilliant armour thrust in Khem Karan, which had once seemed so threatening that General J.N Chaudhuri wanted to withdraw to a new defensive line behind Beas river, thus conceding most of Punjab (to be firmly dissuaded, fortunately, by Harbaksh), became, instead, in its biggest disaster. Destruction of its 1 Armoured Division here pretty much ended Pakistan's offensive capability in the plains in that war.

India's better doctrine and leadership of armour at fighting unit level. Better Indian performance in the mountains, particularly in battles at night. India gained territory across the hilly terrain in Kashmir, while losing a chunk in the plains in Chhamb.

Brilliant tactical dash on the part of Pakistan ruined by incompetent execution. Pakistan, for example, stunned India on September 6 with dusk raids on its forward airbases, particularly Pathankot, where 10 frontline aircraft were destroyed on the ground, but didn't know what to do thereafter. A few losses over Halwara and Adampur, and though it had an upper hand through that war, the PAF desisted from any further daytime raids over IAF bases.

No navy had the size to be able to weigh in on that war. But with the Indian navy definitely not battle-ready, the Pakistani navy wasted the opportunity with a symbolic though humiliating bombardment of Dwarka. It achieved no military purpose though.

Overall, Indian forces were very resolute and efficient in defensive battles as Khem Karan showed. This was totally contrary to Pakistani mythology that "Hindu" armies wouldn't be able to resist it, particularly after India's dismal record in 1962. Strategically, Pakistan miscalculated big-time, and stupidly, by believing any provocations in Kashmir would be met with a response confined there. And once India opened the Punjab front, it had to hurriedly fall back on defence.

All wars begin with miscalculation. The 1965 war was purely Pakistan's. It was their decision and initiative. It was based on a sound appreciation of relative military strengths that put the aggressor at advantage. Even politically and economically, India was going through multiple crises. But it failed for all the reasons discussed earlier. Only Pakistan had strategic objectives in this war and it failed to achieve any. That, to some extent, answers the question: who won this war and who lost? Since Pakistan failed to achieve any objectives, it definitely lost that war. But while it had the better of the land engagements, India did not win the war militarily. It was a strategic defeat for Pakistan but a military stalemate.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shiv »

^^ Missing from that otherwise excellent analysis was that Pakistan had great radar cover as well and could see Indian aircraft well inside Indian territory.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by ramana »

^^^ Add to that the missing actor is USA role. Sidney Giffen in his book "Crisis Games"* describes an unclassified version (implying a classified version developed with TSP officers was even more comprehensive and existed) where in Pak launches ops in Sept 1966. Ayub Khan advanced the date by one year to 1965 to achieve even more tactical surprise. I hope to scan the relevant pages and have it available for people to mull over.

KS garu was besides himself when he found the Crisis Games book in an used bookstore in London and saw the blueprint executed to a tee.

Also note a few parallel moves going on at same time.

- KSA was persuaded by US to adopt Dollar instead of Indian rupee around that time.
- Indonesia under Sukarno renamed the Indian Ocean as Indonesian Ocean and was encouraged by many powers.
- PRC around the third week of September made noises that India should dismantle unauthorized structures on their side of LAC. This was widely seen as a move to support TSP.
LBS suggested if those imaginary structures were on their side they should go ahead and dismantle themselves!
- In 1964 Ayub Khan wrote an article in Foreign Affairs basically saying that Pak options were running out as India was rearming and the vulnerability window was closing. I wonder if MEA mandarins even learned about that article which was a forewarning of sorts. Thanks to BRF member RLN Sarma I have a pdf of that article.



In the Official History of the 1965 war, there is a chapter on how IN was kept out of loop by Gen. JNC and how the IN chief and his staff tried their hardest to get back to Delhi to be in the loop. IN chief was visiting Eastern Command when hostilities broke out.


* Crisis Games is even now the bible of war simulation and is referred in any decent text on war games.

----
I say it was a strategic defeat for TSP and a tactical defeat for US.
The US moves were related to non-proliferation. They wanted to defang India.
All this lead to 1968, 1971 and 1974 & 1998.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Aditya G »

^ i fear that the attempts to defang India are always on, even today. GOI/MEA keeps conversations a secret: maybe they should publish in some way the kind of obstacles we have faced.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Jagan »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34156464

*An interview with one of the irregulars who was part of Op Gibraltor
*1200 to 1300 men in one force
*Talks about attacking an indian post (Before the war) , killing the sentries and everyone inside (same MO by the terrorists nowadays)
*And ofcourse recruited at 14 years of age.

I am unable to recollect how many of these irregulars were caught and killed - but the Pakistanis usually admit around 3000 .. we may need some sources on this..
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shiv »

pandyan wrote:To summarize the "Info about the arms superiority pakistan had in the 65 war." article
why did Pakistan US and Europe fail so badly against India.
LOL!

I think the issue is more complex than that. The US started failing agianst Pakistan way back then - Pakis have been hoodwinking the US for all these decades. To give Pakis credit - they are able to recognize America's deepest fears and reassure Americans that they are in the US's side and that they will always help the US. That is what they did in 1965 to get all those arms. That is what they are still doing - and that is an indicator of how the US would still like to have some mercenaries at least saying that they will do doing some job for the US. America seems to need this reassurance that their interests in faraway lands are being looked after by "allies" and all they need to do is print more dollars which get recycled back to US arms industries. The latter may be a more important thing - the US rarely non Europeans "state of the art" stuff - except for Israel and even those come with strings attached.

The US placed sanctions on Pakistan (and India) in 1965. But those sanctions hit Pakistan harder.

Having read (briefly) the text of agreements between the US and Pakistan - I vaguely recall that none of them was directed against India and Pakistan was an ally in the Cold War against the Soviet Union. But the US may have taken the Pakis for a minor ride by assuring them off the record that they would always support "Pakistani interests". That kept Pakis happy.

Ayub Khan was an idiot. He was westernized and charming and could get away with patting Lyndon Johnson on the cheek in a gesture of familiarity that I have never seen any other world leader doing. A lot of things point me towards the conclusion that Pakistanis believed in their inherent superiority over Indians. If that is surprising what astounds me is that Pakis still think that is true although fewer and fewer of them do.

It is possible that in the post World War 2 era - while Europe was licking its wounds - the US simply got the idea that their freedoms and innovation would simply dominate the world. I think Pakistanis simply acquired some of that confidence from their alliance with the US as they believed that they too had won against India and the Brits and were a new nation set to dominate the world stage. The US was still to learn the hard lessons of coexisting on this planet. They had only seen victory against Red Indians, then the Brits and now Germany. They botched Korea and the botched Vietnam but and won a Pyrrhic victory over the hated communists of Russia - only to place China on a pedestal and now China talks to the US the way the US used to talk to China.

Pakistan has wriggled free by being an ally of the US and China. Neither can control Pakistan. But then no Pakistani can control Pakistan either. I think that the only way any nation can be friendly with Pakistan is to pay them and do them favours. Or else you are an enemy. India is Pakistan's only enemy. Pakistan's relationship with all nations is one of an extortionist/blackmailer
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shiv »

From HKl Saxena with what I think might be his permission to share his story
Episode of 14th Sept 1965 at Adampur, during Indo-Pak war.

This story is not about any act of valor. It could be termed as comedy of errors, or from my point of view as, out of frying pan, into the fire or in hindi, “Aasman se gira khajoor pe atka”.

Just before the war had started, on 30th Aug. 1965, I was sent on attachment from PTE Bamrauli, Allahadad, to No.1 Mystere squadron, at Adampur. There I flew with the squadron and also worked in the base OPS room.
I am describing this episode of 14th sept 1965, in brief with the firm belief that some of the Airforce personnel, working at Adampur, Halwara, Ambala and fighter controller at SU, at that time may remember it.

In the evening, at about 1700hrs, I was called back from the base OPS room, and was asked to do an Air test of Mystere No.1337, which was urgently required for attack next morning.

I got air borne at 1730 hrs hoping to land back by 1800 hrs and therefore I carried the authenticating table upto 1800 hrs.

Besides I could never imagine that I would require to prove my identity to my people, in my own area. As I was the only one flying close to air field and was in direct R/T contact with Adampur flying control.

After finishing the air test, exactly at 1800 hrs I told flying control that, I am making a straight approach to land. Immediately in reply someone from flying control frantically told me “Starfighter over the air field; go to Ambala”. As I looked down and ahead I saw a Starfighter about two kilometers ahead of me, strafing the flying control building.
I immediately, did a hard turn towards Ambala and flew at maximum speed at tree top height turning sharply to either side, to ensure that the side winder heat seeking missile, if fired by the Starfighter, do not lock on to the exhaust of my aircraft, this was the only evasive action I could take.

After about five minutes of flying in such a zig zag manner, I felt assured, that the missile if fired must have hit the buildings or the trees and the Starfighter would not venture to come so much inside our air space and therefore must have gone back to his base in Pakistan.

I reduced the power and climbed upto 3000 feet to pinpoint my position on the ground. As soon as I did that, I heard the controller yelling at the Gnat formation, that the star fighter was just picked up on radar, going towards Ambala. The ground position and height was exactly that of mine, I realized that the controller had taken me as Pakistani Starfighter and was positioning the formation to intercept it.

I managed to convey my position, controller asked me to authenticate. I told him that my table has expired a few minutes back at 1800 hrs. After that no one listened to me, I was confirmed as Pakistani Starfighter going to attack Ambala.

The Gnat formation was catching up behind me to avoid them I came down below radar coverage. I knew this area quite well as I was in No. 2 Squadron at Ambala in 1955 – 1957. I was short of fuel, but I was only a few Km away from air field. I told Ambala flying control who I was, lowered the under carriage and made a direct approach to land. I asked them to keep the guns tight. They ordered the guns to be tight at the last moment. I landed with the help of the landing lights.

The engine stopped a few minutes after landing and the aircraft was towed to the parking area quite familiar to me.

I reported to the base OPS officer. He told me to thank God and come back next morning as they were busy with night operations, just then I met Flt Lt Anand Mohan Gurha, my relative who was assistant provost marshal at Ambala. He took me to his house. I took bath and changed into his clothes and had cooked food and slept on a bed after ten days.

Next day I came to the base OPS room and got the clearance to go back to Adampur at low level, below radar coverage. I came back to Adampur, safe and sound. The Air force story ends.

An AN-12 had landed at Adampur soon after I was diverted to Ambala and went back to Bamrauli, Allahabad. Someone in the flying control had told the crew that I was last seen, chased by a Pakistani Starfighter and as I had not returned may have been shot at and killed. This message spread at Bamrauli, from where I had come on attachment. This information reached my parents at Bulandshahr and caused them lot of anxiety. Luckly my wife was spared from this emotional torture as her where abouts at Lucknow was not known to my friends at Bamrauli.

War is a terrible thing and cause a lot of unexpected serious problems
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Jagan »

shiv wrote:Mystere No.1337
IA1337
Austin
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Austin »

Forced to fight with vintage warplanes and short on experience, the plucky Indian Air Force employed guts and gumption to send the Pakistan Air Force into defensive mode.

War of attrition: How the outgunned IAF beat the PAF Rakesh Krishnan Simha
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Vipul »

^^^^Pakistan will always have the credit of losing a war in spite of having the latest equipment to an adversary fighting it with vintage arms.

To pakistan again goes the ultimate shame of being dislodged from heights by an adversary fighting it against all odds from below (Kargil). You have to be supremely imbecile and incapable bunch of soldiers to achieve this ignominity.

Compare this to the valor of Indian army and its soldiers who did the impossible in dislodging Pakistani soldiers from their post in the highest peak in Siachen in 1987 and since last 28 years pakistan has not been able to regain it. :mrgreen:
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by KLNMurthy »

shiv wrote:...
Pakistan's relationship with all nations is one of an extortionist/blackmailer
This explains Pakistan completely.

In retrospect this fact should have been evident to everyone right from the time of Jinnah's interview with Life magazine.

In reality, it seems that almost no one outside BRF circles realizes this.

Why that should be the case is something to think about.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by komal »

Austin wrote:Forced to fight with vintage warplanes and short on experience, the plucky Indian Air Force employed guts and gumption to send the Pakistan Air Force into defensive mode.

War of attrition: How the outgunned IAF beat the PAF Rakesh Krishnan Simha
Articles like this are confusing. One one had, they criticize Nehru for not providing India with a modern air force. On the other hand, they say that India, unlike Pakistan, had the ability to manufacture fighter internally (the Gnat). Surely, that capability was a Nehru initiative.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Karan M »

Its the degree of initiative and interest that matters. Nehru's support for the armed forces was ad hoc and events like 1962 knocked some sense into his belief system (rather late). Krishna Menon was singularly responsible for a lot of indigenous manufacture of such items but at the same time interfered with service selection and brass appointments. In short a muddled mess led by an arrogant pacifist like Nehru who only threw his weight around at his fellow Indians while insisting the world be treated with kid gloves.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Raveen »

Vipul wrote: To pakistan again goes the ultimate shame of being dislodged from heights by an adversary fighting it against all odds from below (Kargil). You have to be supremely imbecile and incapable bunch of soldiers to achieve this ignominity.

Similarly the honor of losing the heights and making tactical/strategic blunders over and over again that cost the lives of hundreds if not thousands of soldiers goes to India. We have a lot to learn on how not to hamstring ourselves and fight from behind every single time.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by vishvak »

This is why next time we need to ask Pakistan to vacate PoK as part of post-war discussions at the least, just as Pakistan would want the Indian Army to vacate any territories gained during war in Pakjab and Sindh. In fact, end of war could be one signal just to enter PoK and be done with the issue there itself. It is a very simple logic.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by ramana »

We need for balance more stories about the Indian Army.

Thanks, ramana
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by ramana »

We also need to understand the world situation before the 1965 war and soon after to put the 1965 war in context.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by KrishnaK »

Aditya G wrote:^ i fear that the attempts to defang India are always on, even today. GOI/MEA keeps conversations a secret: maybe they should publish in some way the kind of obstacles we have faced.
c One could always study what the other side has to say, unless one wishes to continue with fear mongering. Those conversations are declassified.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by KrishnaK »

shiv wrote:
pandyan wrote:To summarize the "Info about the arms superiority pakistan had in the 65 war." article
why did Pakistan US and Europe fail so badly against India.
LOL!

I think the issue is more complex than that. The US started failing agianst Pakistan way back then - Pakis have been hoodwinking the US for all these decades. To give Pakis credit - they are able to recognize America's deepest fears and reassure Americans that they are in the US's side and that they will always help the US. That is what they did in 1965 to get all those arms. That is what they are still doing - and that is an indicator of how the US would still like to have some mercenaries at least saying that they will do doing some job for the US. America seems to need this reassurance that their interests in faraway lands are being looked after by "allies" and all they need to do is print more dollars which get recycled back to US arms industries. The latter may be a more important thing - the US rarely non Europeans "state of the art" stuff - except for Israel and even those come with strings attached.

The US placed sanctions on Pakistan (and India) in 1965. But those sanctions hit Pakistan harder.

Having read (briefly) the text of agreements between the US and Pakistan - I vaguely recall that none of them was directed against India and Pakistan was an ally in the Cold War against the Soviet Union. But the US may have taken the Pakis for a minor ride by assuring them off the record that they would always support "Pakistani interests". That kept Pakis happy.

Ayub Khan was an idiot. He was westernized and charming and could get away with patting Lyndon Johnson on the cheek in a gesture of familiarity that I have never seen any other world leader doing. A lot of things point me towards the conclusion that Pakistanis believed in their inherent superiority over Indians. If that is surprising what astounds me is that Pakis still think that is true although fewer and fewer of them do.

It is possible that in the post World War 2 era - while Europe was licking its wounds - the US simply got the idea that their freedoms and innovation would simply dominate the world. I think Pakistanis simply acquired some of that confidence from their alliance with the US as they believed that they too had won against India and the Brits and were a new nation set to dominate the world stage. The US was still to learn the hard lessons of coexisting on this planet. They had only seen victory against Red Indians, then the Brits and now Germany. They botched Korea and the botched Vietnam but and won a Pyrrhic victory over the hated communists of Russia - only to place China on a pedestal and now China talks to the US the way the US used to talk to China.

Pakistan has wriggled free by being an ally of the US and China. Neither can control Pakistan. But then no Pakistani can control Pakistan either. I think that the only way any nation can be friendly with Pakistan is to pay them and do them favours. Or else you are an enemy. India is Pakistan's only enemy. Pakistan's relationship with all nations is one of an extortionist/blackmailer
US/Pakistan relations over the years, including 1965, is documented well in Haqqani's book, Magnificent Delusions. The data for that book has been picked from US archives, in case some one begins harping on his alleged past. Those should be verifiable.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Sanju »

Taking a cue from Ramanna.
----------------------------------------------
What you are reading below is hearsay, I do not have any links other than my memory of hearing long forgotten conversations that occasionally meander across my thoughts like mists in the mountains.

I will refrain from taking names of personnel and identities of battalions. Any errors are unintentional and mine alone.

1) A few months ago I was talking to my Mother over the phone, when she casually mentioned something on the lines of - your father was recommended. At first I thought that I had heard wrong, so I asked in what context. She told me that it happened in the 1965 war.

Then I recalled that my Father telling me about how his unit was just raised and with barely any training and with nearly all the officers having 2 years or less experience in the army with the exception of the CO, 2IC and the adjutant. He had barely 2 years himself and was promoted to Captain (don't recall whether it was Field Promotion or not).
During the war the intelligence on the enemy strength and positions was not accurate. In the sector (J&K) where his unit was the enemy was in strength and on the offensive. The order came from GHQ, fight to the last man last bullet. My father paused in his narration of the story. In my impatience I asked and then what happened. He simply said that the order was withdrawn at the last minute and they were asked to withdraw, which they did.

What he omitted to add was what my Mother filled me in our conversation.

It seemed that the battalion was actually running out of ammunition and the order to withdraw had not been given. So my father had volunteered to go and get additional ammunition. He wasn't given the permission as the shelling was intense and that getting out of the trenches to get the ammunition was suicidal. He finally had to give in writing that he was taking full responsibility for his actions. He took a truck and came back with the replenishment. Which allowed them to fight longer and then withdraw. For this action, the CO recommended him in writing to the GHQ.

Apparently, the recommendation reached "after the allotted time" or cut-off time so nothing came of it. There were murmurs of parochialism. That may or may not have been the case, however, it was the recommendation of his CO who happened to be a Rajput from UP for a Thambi - so I would rather believe that it was Babudom. In the following decades my Father was supported many a times in his professional life and personal life from people in the armed forces (and otherwise) all across India. So good deeds are always paid back- sometimes on time and in some cases later with interest.

My Father has always been my Hero, winning a Medal would have not have made him any more "Hero-er"" than he already was. As I grow older I appreciate him more and wish that he was alive to experience that appreciation.

Maybe one day I will look for the records and piece the story together.

------------------------------------------------------------------
2) One of the instances of intelligence failure was when a different Battalion was asked to attack the enemy. When the CO sent recce & probing teams to verify the enemy strength, it was found that they were facing enemy with the strength of a division. He radioed back to HQ and relayed the information. The Div. Commander refused to believe him and asked him if he was being a coward and disobeying a direct order and told him that he was to follow the order.

The incensed CO attacked the enemy and his battalion was nearly decimated. When the Div Commander came to review the situation, the CO called out to one of the surviving NCO/JCO, saying, "Saheb ke liye toffa lao" (get the gift for the Saheb). They bought the gift which the CO gave to the Div Commdr. It was the severed leg of the CHM (Company Havildar Major).

The Senior officer was not amused and made sure that the CO never went beyond the rank of a Col. At the end of the war there were investigations and the then Div Commander was cashiered from service.
-------------
When the CO of that battalion retired as Commandant of the Regimental Centre I was there as a young kid taking part in the celebrations (as my Father was posted there). Over 30 years later, when my Father passed away, He called to give solace and share the grief on the death of one of his officers. We were part of the Fauji family.

------------------------------------------------------------------
3) On a lighter note, in 1965, the situation was very different. To try to understand that, we have to imagine ourselves in that time frame. No cell phones, no internet, no TV or Social media, our main source of news was more BBC rather than AIR. People rarely had personal vehicles.

In the midst of this there was infiltration in J&K. In some of the pictures from the period you will see that officers were not wearing their ribbons and ranks. There were empty spaces with press buttons visible (tick tock button as we used to call them when we were kids). There was a reason for that. It was so that the snipers among the infiltrators could not identify the officers - especially Senior Officers.

There was one senior officer who was openly afraid of dying. When he used to travel with the troops he used to either sit in the back of the One Tonne truck with the flaps down or travel in the front with the driver with the strict instruction not to honk or use the horn in any circumstances and to drive fast. The driver was in a quandary, how to go fast around the treacherous mountain roads without alerting the oncoming vehicle around the corner - going slow would mean being sitting ducks for the infiltrators and getting an earful from the Senior Officer. On one of the turns his elbow accidentally hit the horn and it blared jarringly in the stillness of the mountains.

Let us call our officer Indu short for Inder (not real name) - he turns in alarm to the driver and shouts " Abe saale baja - band baje ke bol ki Indu araha hain". There were many stories about Inder. He came from a military family and had a brother who was also a Senior officer. Inder survived the war but his attitude caught up with him and he lost a rank IIRC.

------------------------------------------------------------------
4) After the ceasefire was declared, the officers of the two forces would meet in each others camp across the CFL with machine guns trained on each other. One day the Pakistani soldiers would visit the Indian camp and the following day the Indians would visit the Pakistani camp. Officers only I believe. The Pakistani officers were very interested in Lata Mangeshkar tapes and the Indians in the Wills cigarette packets that were "made of tin and green in colour". Pakoda and chai would be served.

On one such meeting, there was a Captain from PA who was enquiring about certain IA officers and their wives and children. After some time, my Father started calling him Sir. So the PA Capt. said, Capt. why are you calling me Sir? You are a Capt and I am a Capt.

My Father replied that Sir you are obviously wearing the wrong ranks on your epaulettes - especially since the holes don't match that of your rank and moreover you are asking about officers who are very senior to me. The PA officer started laughing and then hugged my father and said that they were his course mates and that he had served together with them before partition. As Maroof Raza had written it was the Last Gentleman's War. Last Gentleman's War

PS: My father used to regale us with the story of the 4 or 6 brand new Willis (Made in the USA) Jeeps that they had captured. Of them, the battalion was allowed to keep some of them during the course of the war. They were left-hand drive and could comfortably touch 140 km/h and were driven on the roads with the wind shield down. They would go the Jammu town for a coffee when they had a short break. The roads would be empty.

Endnote - My father's unit has sent an NCO on two separate occasions this year to enquire after the health of my Mother and to ensure that pension is being received. They have come bearing gifts on the 50th Anniversary of the war when they received their first Battle Honours. I have the New Year card that depicts the battle. It takes pride of place on my table.

Jai Hind
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Jagan »

Fantastic Post Sanju. Thanks for Sharing. your notes put me right in the shoes of the troops who were flung into that war. I can imagine how it must have gone for them.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shiv »

Thanks for that evocative post Sanju. I must admit I have read fewer detailed army descriptions of 1965 than air force stories. I know there are books and I am hoping to get hold of a couple. But the little I have read corroborates well with Sanju's description. An army that was expanding after 1962. Poor communication and confusion, but plenty of valour.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by JE Menon »

Here's another one from the Baki Brishit Co-operation (BBC) channel. Unfortunately, the view of a Pakarmy Terrorist:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-3415 ... 7770003614

Click on the image of the terrorist to watch the interview.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by JE Menon »

Wow. Fantastic and evocative post Sanju. Thanks for sharing that.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shiv »

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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Karan M »

Sanju, amazing post.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shiv »

:mrgreen: ^^ Interesting that DD has "borrowed" a few seconds of my own 8 year old Asal Uttar video. Of course even my scenes were "borrowed'

My narration of the Battle of Asal Uttar made in an era when it used to take my computer about 3-4 minutes to render 1 minute of video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZAPMmumwQA
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Sanju »

Jagan, Shiv, JEM & Karan M thank you for your appreciation. It means much to me as I look up to all your posts and rarely have the time to write. Take this as a "thank you post" from me to y'all and the many regular contributors here.

There is one outstanding post that I had promised Rahul M many moons ago. That will take more time.

Jagan can you please drop me a note on sanjuyyz at the rate chacha dot com? Was in your zipcode a fortnight ago and wanted to meet you and get a signed copy of the 1965 air war HB book to go with my signed 1971 Airwar book. I finally got the 1971 book after being one of the early ones to buy. :D
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Paul »

My Father replied that Sir you are obviously wearing the wrong ranks on your epaulettes - especially since the holes don't match that of your rank and moreover you are asking about officers who are very senior to me. The PA officer started laughing and then hugged my father and said that they were his course mates and that he had served together with them before partition. As Maroof Raza had written it was the Last Gentleman's War. Last Gentleman's War
Amazing observation by your Father Sanju......On a side note does anyone know if Gen Zoru Bakshi wrote a memoir on his distinguished career.

http://veekay-militaryhistory.blogspot. ... c-vrc.html
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Karan M »

>>The incensed CO attacked the enemy and his battalion was nearly decimated. When the Div Commander came to review the situation, the CO called out to one of the surviving NCO/JCO, saying, "Saheb ke liye toffa lao" (get the gift for the Saheb). They bought the gift which the CO gave to the Div Commdr. It was the severed leg of the CHM (Company Havildar Major).

The Senior officer was not amused and made sure that the CO never went beyond the rank of a Col. At the end of the war there were investigations and the then Div Commander was cashiered from service.

..
incredible. couldn't the CO receive a better deal post investigations?
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Paul »

Would it be possible to retrieve this paper
However, he was elated at the performance of the Indian Army, and wrote a paper, entitled 'A Reputation is Redeemed', shortly after the war. He wrote:"The black mark against the Army in general, and the Officer Corps in particular, has been washed clean." Later, when he wrote his book 'The Shield and the Sword', in 1967, he included this paper as a chapter, under the heading 'Honour Redeemed.'
http://veekay-militaryhistory.blogspot. ... -pvsm.html
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by ramana »

Sanju, Awesome recounting of regimental izzat.

If its not too personal can you scan the cover of the New Year card and post here?

ramana

Paul, You should help collect an post the different regimental war cries and mottoes.

Eg. Arty has "Izzat o Iqbal"
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Paul »

Youtube has a set of videos recounting the Infeantry regimental centers. We should post the links at the start of the Army thread
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Sanju »

Karan M, what had happened was that the said Div. Commander had powerful friends and once things go into a file it is very difficult to undo the damage. I remember as a youngster my outrage at the injustice.

Actually how I heard the story was when I had asked my Father, "why XX Uncle had to retire as a Col. and did not become a general?" He had what one would call a commanding presence, even though he was short among his colleagues.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by ramana »

Rediff Page on 1965 War 50 years later:

http://www.rediff.com/news/1965-war-50- ... /headlines
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by ramana »

Link:
http://www.rediff.com/news/special/my-f ... 150904.htm


Lots of portraits.
My father, the Param Vir Chakra Hero

Last updated on: September 14, 2015 10:59 IST


In spite of being wounded in battle, Lieutenant Colonel A B Tarapore fought for six days before meeting a hero's death on the battlefield in the 1965 war.

A legend in the Indian Army, he is the highest ranking officer to be awarded the Param Vir Chakra.

His daughter Zarine M Boyce, who was 16 when her father died, remembers an extraordinary soldier and a father she lost too soon.

Archana Masih/Rediff.com met the hero's daughter at her Pune home.

Lieutenant Colonel A B Tarapore, PVC

"I remember so well the night they got their orders to move. I was 16. The Poona Horse (Lieutenant Colonel A B Tarapore's regiment) had won an inter regimental tournament and there was a celebratory party in the Officer's Mess.

It was the first time I was allowed into a party. I remember dancing with my father when his adjutant, Captain Surinder Singh, tapped him on the shoulder and my father went in.

Captain Jasbir Singh came and took his place. Unfortunately he too died in the same shell attack that killed my father.

Soon after, we were told that the party was over and we should go home. This must have happened at 10 pm. Around 2, 3 in the morning, we heard the tanks moving out.

They were given orders to load and leave, but there was a wall blocking the route to the road and if they circumvented it, they could have missed their boarding time.

So my dad gave instructions to go through the wall as the objective was to get to the station in time. Of course they reached on time.

The next day we went to the train station. Earlier, my mother had gathered all the women at the mess and told them 'Don't you cry!'

I can never forget the scene with the officers and their tanks on the station. My father came out to one of the flats (wagons in the train carrying the tanks) and Captain Ajai Singh, who later became general and then governor of Assam, was with him, along with Captains Jasbir Singh and Surinder Singh.

Just at the whistle blew, my father gave my mother a salute. And all the soldiers saluted us. That's my last memory. I never saw him again."



***



Zarine Mahir Boyce breaks down as she remembers that day 50 years ago when her father left to fight a war, never to return.

A legendary tank commander who led from the front; he died in the tank that he loved, surrounded by men that adored him.

During our conversation, Mrs Boyce's eyes well up several times as one tries to grasp the pain of a teenager's loss that hasn't ebbed in half a century.

Now in her mid 60s, she lives in her mother's family home in Pune and says not a day passes when she hasn't thought of her father.

Next week, she has been invited by the Poona Horse for a commemorative ceremony of the 1965 war. "The respect they have given me over the years is unsurpassable," she says. "They treat me better than the Queen of England!"

She has also been invited for tea by the President for a felicitation of the 1965 veterans at Rashtrapati Bhavan on September 22.



***

Zarine M Boyce

IMAGE: The last time Zarine Boyce saw her father was at the railway station before he left for the battlefront. Photograph: Archana Masih/Rediff.com

"My father had not told anybody but on the night we were celebrating, he had got a message from the military secretary that as soon as his tenure was over, which would have been another couple of months, he would be posted as military attache to the USA, where he would pick up his brigadier pips.

I was excited as a young girl that I would do my college in America. Of course, it never happened.

When my father was at the front we got news only through letters. We received his last letter after his death.

In that he wrote 'I could not have had finer and better men to lead.'

They say that the command that my father had on the wireless in keeping the whole regiment together was unsurpassable. They destroyed 60 enemy tanks against our 9 and not only that -- they were one regiment against a brigade which comprised three regiments with Patton tanks.

We had the old Centurions tanks that were heavier and not as fast, but he did it. He did it like they did it in the old cavalry charges. It was just sure, sheer guts. His courage was such that inspired his men.

One of the boys told me that all he said on the wireless was 'Come on gentlemen, let's go and get them' -- and he charged at full speed, followed by his men.

The young men who came to see my mother after my dad died, told us that after the battle started, the colonel opened the cupola of his tank and stood up courageously, in spite of all the firing.

They said seeing him do that gave them courage. General Ajai Singh (who was a captain then) always says that no matter what part of the battle it was, Colonel Tarapore was always there.

With no disrespect to anybody, it was the first real battle that we went into. China was bad, we couldn't help it. But in '65 even if we lacked in resources what we did not lack was courage."

***

In 1965, the Pakistan army's armour strength was superior to that of the Indian Army. Pakistan had 765 tanks against India's 720, writes Nitin Gokhale in his book 1965 -- Turning the Tide.

India was in no position to wage another war in 1965, having suffered a morale-shattering defeat in 1962. The three services were in the middle of a modernisation and expansion phase and therefore not fully trained or battle-ready.

***

"At some stage of the battle, my father's tank was blasted. He jumped out, helped his wireless officer Captain Amarjit Bal, who eventually became a general.

After they were injured and they came out of the tank, my father realised that Captain Bal was still inside the tank, so he jumped in, pulled him to safety, gave him his morphine injection and asked him to be evacuated.

A little later in that operation a shrapnel riddled my father's arm. He was told to evacuate but he didn't want to leave his men. He said he would not leave his boys and continued to fight with his hand in a sling for the next two days.

Many of the officers say that if he had not taken that stance at that time, maybe we wouldn't have been in Pakistan. And for that, the regiment treat him like God.

One of his jawans who had come to see my mother after my father passed away told my mom: 'Colonel Tarapore was Arjun.'

He wanted to be cremated on the battlefield, so they did it. Even the enemy respected him. They called his regiment Fakhr-e-Hind, the Pride of India. This is unprecedented.

***

Zarine M Boyce holding Lt Col A B Tarapore's jacket

IMAGE: The brave men of the Poona Horse who received gallantry awards for the 1965 war.

The biggest tank battle since World War II was fought in the Sialkot sector of Pakistan in 1965. Under Colonel Tarapore's leadership, 60 enemy tanks were destroyed in fierce tank battles that are part of military folklore.

Leading from the front and unmindful of being wounded, the colonel continued to fight for six days before he died a hero's death on the battlefield. The fearless commanding officer and his men had gone into Pakistan and captured Phillora, Chawinda, Wazirwali, Jassoran, Buttar Dograndi.

In the battle of Chawinda, he led the tanks twice into the middle of the enemy's killing ground. In the battle of Phillora, 23 enemy tanks lay scattered, mauled and burning.

On the evening of September 16, his tank was hit by a shell. He and his intelligence officer Captain Jasbir Singh along with two jawans died in the attack.

Colonel A B Tarapore was cremated on the battlefield in Jassoran at 0930 on September 17, 1965. His ashes were brought back to Pune.

For his valour he was decorated with the highest war-time gallantry medal, the Param Vir Chakra posthumously. Among the places where his valour is remembered is in the Golden Temple in Amritsar where his name is etched on a plaque. His presence also graces two building complexes in Andheri, suburban Mumbai, named after him: Tarapore Gardens and Tarapore Towers.

***

"When my mother was dying of cancer, it was her wish that his Param Vir Chakra be given to his regiment.

Today it is in the Quarter Guard and every young officer who joins the regiment has to go to the portrait of my father and of Second Lieutenant Arun Khetrapal (the 21-year-old awarded the Param Vir Chakra in the 1971 war, also from Poona Horse) and then join the regiment.

When we went to give the Param Vir Chakra in 1982, there was a tank parade and my mother went up and gave the medal to General Hanut Singh, who was commanding the regiment. (Decorated with the Mahavir Chakra in the 1971 war, General Hanut Singh was a military legend and sadly passed away in April this year.)

I will never forget what General Hanut said. He said, 'As long as there is a Poona Horse and as long as there is a Tarapore, we will be at their service.'

You don't get this loyalty and respect anywhere. Jawans who fought under him brought their little grandchildren to my mom and said, 'Mataji aap iske sir par haath rakh dengi toh yeh bhi veer ho jayega. (Mother, if you put your hand on his head, he too will become as brave as your husband).'

I am going to give the last jacket he wore in action to the regiment. They will put it up in the Quarter Guard with love and respect."

***

Zarine M Boyce

IMAGE: On September 22, Zarine M Boyce has been invited for tea by the President for a felicitation of 1965 veterans at Rashtrapati Bhvwan. Photograph: Archana Masih/Rediff.com

Six days after Colonel Tarapore's death, the United Nations called for a ceasefire by India and Pakistan. The war ended on September 23, 1965. India held 518 square kilometres of Pakistan territory in the Sialkot sector, that was returned in keeping with the Tashkent Treaty.

The Poona Horse, the regiment to which Colonel Tarapore belonged, is one of the most decorated regiments in the Indian Army. It has been awarded two Param Vir Chakras and two Victoria Crosses.

In the 1965 war, it was also awarded two Vir Chakras and five Sena Medals. In respect for the regiment's achievement on the battlefield, the Pakistani army conferred it with the title 'Fakhr-e-Hind.'

***

"There is never a day that goes by when I don't think of him. I suppose all of us who have famous fathers are daddy's girls. There are always people who take his name with a lot of respect.

His regiment was the be all and end all of his life. It was his family. His soldiers were his children. We were also rans. He loved us, he adored us, but he had one very, very strong trait which made his men adore him.

He was commanding his regiment in Babina, near Jhansi. His jeep had got stuck in a nullah and three of them -- the wireless operator, my father and driver -- tried to push the jeep out.

When he came home covered in slush, a civilian guest visiting us asked him why didn't he get the men to push the jeep since he was the commanding officer.

I will never forget what my father said. He said, 'I am not made of sugar or salt. I am not going to melt. I can do whatever my men can do.'

***


'As long as there is a Poona Horse and as long as there is a Tarapore, we will be at their service.'

Zarine Boyce's mother, Perin Tarapore, was only 40 when her husband died. Mrs Boyce herself lost her husband when she was 32. She has two daughters, one of whom will accompany her to the regiment's commemorative function next week.

Mrs Tarapore received Rs 10,000 and a transistor set from Indira Gandhi, then the information and broadcasting minister.

When P V Cherian, then the governor of Maharashtra, discovered this when he visited Mrs Tarapore in Pune, he intervened with the defence minister until she was given a plot of land in Koregaon Park with the stipulation that she should build a house in two years.

Since Colonel Tarapore's last pay was Rs 3,000 and his pension hardly amounted to around Rs 1,000, the Parsi community stepped in and built a house at no profit. Mrs Tarapore rented out this house and that's where her main income came from.

"We managed because her father was comfortably off but we always wonder about people who aren't," says Mrs Boyce. "But now things have improved."

***

"I don't feel bitter. My father had a job to do and he did it. As much as he died, somebody else may have died too.

Students at the school he went to and was head boy don't know about him. The road outside the school is named after him, but once when I was there, I asked the students about him, and they didn't know.

What he did was for the country. In the north of India, people appreciate sacrifice and valour because they have been at the receiving end for a long time.

In Maharashtra and South India not so much because they have never had to face threats to their homes because the enemy has never come down that far.

Mrs Boyce with the military jacket

IMAGE: Mrs Boyce will return this military jacket, the last one worn by her father, to his regiment next week. It has his name 'Tarapore' stitched on the inside of the collar. Photograph: Archana Masih/Rediff.com

"I do not expect people to appreciate it (a soldier's sacrifice) when they themselves have not been through it. But awareness is creeping in now.

Anywhere in Punjab, the name Tarapore or the name Abdul Hamid means a lot because they themselves have been through this trauma of invasion.

(Company Quarter Master Havildar Abdul Hamid was decorated with the Param Vir Chakra for his remarkable courage in the other famous battle of 1965, the Battle of Assal Uttar (Befitting Reply) In a superhuman effort, he destroyed seven tanks before sacrificing his life on the battlefield.

('He had blown up a total of seven enemy tanks, even more than an armoured formation can hope for. For the first time in military history, a battalion with only recoilless guns at its disposal fought off an armoured division,' Rachna Rawat Bisht wrote in The Brave: Param Vir Chakra Stories).

***

Lt Col A B Tarapore

IMAGE: Colonel Tarapore remains a legend in the Indian Army.

‘My mother was in this house when we got news of his passing. Those days after his passing were terrible. My mother's younger brother became like a surrogate dad. Nothing can tide over for your loss.

Not only was my father an astounding soldier, he was also a kind human being. He did not have any shades of grey. For him it was this or that, never a maybe. He would have been a failure in civilian life.

He was always very brave. It was in his DNA.

There is a book in Pakistan by a soldier who was fighting in the same sector and he mentions my father's courage. His courage came for the love of his men.

He would often say to me, 'If only god would give me the privilege of leading them into battle, I will think my life is worth it.' And it did happen."
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by vsunder »

I find it very interesting to read the comments of the 1965 war by people who were obviously never born then.
It is a dirty business, and the wounded not a pretty sight. It really makes me angry to see young lives wasted full of promise because of the rantings of some tinpot dictator. I was old enough to read a lot about the war, and even help out with passing magazines and snacks to soldiers passing through Kanpur on trains. This war was something that touched me.

There was a local boy, 2/Lt Indu Kumar Gupta who was killed at Khem Karan. His ashes were brought back and there was a public eulogy in Phool Bagh, Kanpur which I attended. The road opposite his house was named after him. His father was an army man and the road is in Kanpur Cantt. I traveled on this road every school day till 1969 when I was done. I am sure people have forgotten who Indu Kumar Gupta was and could care less.

http://www.geni.com/people/Lt-Indra-Ind ... 0327466729

Time moves on, a new generation. I will see a lot of it soon. Regarding Lt. Col Tarapore, his life and actions received very little publicity those days. While huge billboards and hoardings depicting the deeds of Abdul Hamid PVC were commonplace in at least many cities of Northern India in those days soon after the war, there was hardly any publicity about Tarapore. The Parsi community of Kanpur of which I was plugged in and still maintain contacts though the Kanpur boys and Lucknow boys of that time are scattered to the four corners by the wind, had a deep sense of pride about Tarapore. Oh yes and the Mart boys ( La Martiniere, the Alma Mater of Alfred Cooke and the Keelor brothers)were strutting around as peacocks, it made life that much harder for us in that brutal event now a anachronism and long defunct, Lucknow-Kanpur annual Rugby tournament played in the outer field at Green Park. Incidentally one of the houses at Martiniere is named after Hodson, the infamous fellow after whom is named 4th regt of Armor, Hodson's Horse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Horse ... s_Horse%29

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqjYi-k78EM

Hodson's Horse in 1971:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPRTOlfWQ88

Keelor senior, dad of the dynamic duo, ran a primary school in Lucknow. I was a scout from 4-6 grade. Our scout master Mr. Eduljee a Parsi took us on a camping trip in early 1963( 5th grade) and we spent two nights camped on the grounds of the Keelor school. I remember we lit a bonfire one night and sang a song in honor of Mr. Keelor, a jolly rotund man.

I also realize my classmate from school R. S. "Chow" Chaudhry whose BR details about his Mentioned in Dispatches in Kargil I linked above in connection with my memories of 1965, was CO of 106 squadron, the same squadron as Jagmohan "Jaggi" Nath.
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