Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 03 Feb 2016 17:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_feco6vn7E
This is a video of the K4 test

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Feb 2016 17:30

PM Modi has brought a paradigm shift in defence; 'Make in India' an imperative: BrahMos' Sudhir Mishra

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 04 Feb 2016 18:22

[rant]
These Brahmos interviews are getting annoying with lots of words and little visible progress. How long it's been since they started talking about the smaller/lighter version of the missile? No tests until now and they're not even talking about it. If the heavier version was so difficult they could have done all the work for the lighter one as well in the same iteration.
They worked on sub and air-launched versions before they had a platform to deploy it. What a waste of resources!
But they can't make progress on the smaller one when plenty of IAF aircraft should be able to carry it.
[/rant]

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 04 Feb 2016 18:35

This quote from above link explains where we stand now. Don't expect MK 2 anytime, atleast for ~10 yrs.

As of now, we are conducting research completely in the theoretical region.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Feb 2016 19:02

^^ From the interview it is clear they are working on two version , At Mach 5 beginnining of hypersonic using existing engine with some changes which will come 4-5 years and Mach 8-9 what he calls pure hypersonic using scramjet taking a decade or so

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 04 Feb 2016 19:16

Austin wrote:^^ From the interview it is clear they are working on two version , At Mach 5 beginnining of hypersonic using existing engine with some changes which will come 4-5 years and Mach 8-9 what he calls pure hypersonic using scramjet taking a decade or so

Brahmos-M (enhanced/smaller/faster) & Brahmos MK2 (pure hypersonic)?

But give the history of statements made by Brahmos CEOs (first Mr Pillai and now Mr Sudhir), if they say now we should assume 5 years from today.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Feb 2016 19:57

Sid wrote:This quote from above link explains where we stand now. Don't expect MK 2 anytime, atleast for ~10 yrs.

As of now, we are conducting research completely in the theoretical region.

Sadly this was identified in the late 80s, when India produced the most number of research papers in the world and had no products come out of them.

Nothing seems to have changed to make a difference.

And, I agree, BrahMos is a *great* product form the past. They need to slow down the talk.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Feb 2016 09:09

Sid wrote:
Austin wrote:^^ From the interview it is clear they are working on two version , At Mach 5 beginnining of hypersonic using existing engine with some changes which will come 4-5 years and Mach 8-9 what he calls pure hypersonic using scramjet taking a decade or so
Brahmos-M (enhanced/smaller/faster) & Brahmos MK2 (pure hypersonic)?

But give the history of statements made by Brahmos CEOs (first Mr Pillai and now Mr Sudhir), if they say now we should assume 5 years from today.

Sudhir has mentioned in earlier interview that they wont jump to pure hypersonic brahmos but an intermediate stage using existing Brahmos engine to achieve a speed of Mach 5 and then move to Mach 7 plus with pure hypersonic engine which is a different breed , The key problem is not the engine but the materials needs to sustain that speed without affecting the integrity of the platform and getting over the plasma effect to make the RF works effectively. ( both these challenges were listed by both Sudhir and chief designer of NPO Mash ) Materials is the key thing

So we can expect a Brahmos Mach 5 by 2020 and Pure Hypersonic Brahmos post 2025. Brahmos-M is the smaller missile. These are decade and half work of R&D for each type of missile so we should not expect they would just pan out in short time

In any case Brahmos has not remained constant since 90 and there are mark 2,3,4 models developed considering India is the only country that employs such supersonic system for precision ground attack and variable trajectory it shows even getting a supersonic missile working is not an easy thing to achieve

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Feb 2016 22:24

IMHO - BrahMos corp cannot produce a brand new missile here in India in any case. We need the base missile from Russia and MKIize it - like we have done with Brahmos missile

John · Post by **John** » 05 Feb 2016 22:33

Brahmos M and air launched brahmos are brand new missiles. IMO they should focused on Brahmos M rather than air launched Brahmos and underestimated the challenges of launching 2.5 ton missile from the air and with only one platform capable of carrying it it is waste of resources.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Feb 2016 22:50

JTull wrote:[rant]
These Brahmos interviews are getting annoying with lots of words and little visible progress. How long it's been since they started talking about the smaller/lighter version of the missile? No tests until now and they're not even talking about it. If the heavier version was so difficult they could have done all the work for the lighter one as well in the same iteration.
They worked on sub and air-launched versions before they had a platform to deploy it. What a waste of resources!
But they can't make progress on the smaller one when plenty of IAF aircraft should be able to carry it.
[/rant]

Gotta agree.. Brahmos guys talk of the same thing 10,0000 times. Anyways, its a successful program with orders and works, so i guess thats ok. They have constantly improved the missile like Austin said, and that's a big deal..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Feb 2016 22:51

Aditya G wrote:IMHO - BrahMos corp cannot produce a brand new missile here in India in any case. We need the base missile from Russia and MKIize it - like we have done with Brahmos missile

I hope this time around propulsion and seeker are built in India.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Feb 2016 14:49

Austin wrote:PM Modi has brought a paradigm shift in defence; 'Make in India' an imperative: BrahMos' Sudhir Mishra

I had a further think about the purpose of the following (bold) quote from Mr Sudhir Mishra

Q. PM Narendra Modi recently concluded his visit to Russia. Where do you see India-Russia defence ties headed?

A. Russia is our first strategic partner. Historically, Russia has proved that it is India's friend. India has received Russia's help in setting up a wide range of infrastructural projects. Based on this historical perspective, I feel that the future is going to be as eventful as the past.

There are talks that India will buy the S-400 missile system, which is one of the best systems in the world. Russians have always given us their best product. S-400 will be able to serve India for at least 30 years.

Also, Russia will set up their Kamov manufacturing plant in India. That would be a complete game changer, because Russians do not believe in such ventures where they source defence equipment from abroad.

The progress on Kamov manufacturing is well documented in public domain, with news on tie-ups being announced by official press releases from stakeholder.

But there are no nuggets on the progress on S-400 deal. Infact it was first mentioned just before RM's visit to Russia and not once since. By bringing this up Mr Mishra, as the CEO of a semi-private enterprise, is talking about govt. initiatives that he may be privy to but not necessarily authorised to talk about.

So, my suspicion is that the S-400 missile systems may be produced under Make-in-India initiative and within a very successful existing Brahmos venture. Or, possibly, the Brahmos venture is being used as a template to create another one.

So here we are. I said it.

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 06 Feb 2016 16:55

^

S-300 was also supposedly purchased before, even though it was never officially reported. I have a feeling if and when S-400 is procured there will be no official announcement of it.

John · Post by **John** » 09 Feb 2016 16:34

S300 was never purchased just like Tu22m3 it was incorrectly reported and as result media and blogs that google their facts keep picking it up.

On other hand S400 is being pushed by Russia which is desperate for major arms deal to kick start its S400 export drive. Also IAF seems to be losing patience with DRDO on AAD which has been in testing for over a decade. Considering the $$ and no of firms nvolved and russian needs for publicity hard to keep it a secret.

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Feb 2016 16:40

http://idrw.org/made-in-nagpur-but-impo ... more-87089

At present, Indian Air Force (IAF) is using the systems supplied by UK-based company Chemring Group. It has been learnt by the agency that the UK company buys the metal casings for its product from a Nagpur-based firm. A mid-sized unit, the company also caters to the ordnance factory and specializes in metallics. However, when approached by HEMRL, the local company has denied having any such product. Though it was reconfirmed by the agency’s own intelligence gathering and through the industry sources, that the casings used by Chemring’s product are from this firm only. The denial has forced HEMRL to look for a different manufacturer. Repeated parleys with the firm have failed, say sources who preferred not to disclose the local company’s name.

Any idea which company this is ?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Feb 2016 16:49

Posting from the above link in full

After developing a latest missile decoy system for fighter planes, the Defence Research and Development (DRDO) is now desperately scouting for a metal casing for the product. Available right in the backyard at Nagpur, the component is made in India, but not made for India. As a result, the agency is forced to look for other vendors in private sector, but has not succeeded so far.

Pune-based High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL), a unit under DRDO, has put on display the latest infrared counter measure disruptive system (CDMS) at the Vignyan Bharti exhibition held at VNIT campus. The event is aimed at bringing industries and researchers together. The user trials of the CDMS have proven that the chemical composition, which diverts the missile attack, is fine, but the metal casing needs to be strengthened.

At present, Indian Air Force (IAF) is using the systems supplied by UK-based company Chemring Group. It has been learnt by the agency that the UK company buys the metal casings for its product from a Nagpur-based firm. A mid-sized unit, the company also caters to the ordnance factory and specializes in metallics. However, when approached by HEMRL, the local company has denied having any such product. Though it was reconfirmed by the agency’s own intelligence gathering and through the industry sources, that the casings used by Chemring’s product are from this firm only. The denial has forced HEMRL to look for a different manufacturer. Repeated parleys with the firm have failed, say sources who preferred not to disclose the local company’s name.

“This is a tricky situation,” say sources related to the affair. The company cannot be compelled to share the technology as it is already under a contractual obligation with the British firm. This is the reason it is believed to be so secretive on the matter. There are all chances that the British company may initiate legal action against the Indian supplier, which makes it as helpless as HEMRL in this case.

What looks like a small metal box is reported to be the latest missile decoy system developed indigenously. It diverts the attack of the heat seeking missiles which otherwise can accurately hit the target. The present system available with the IAF can be effective against second and third generation missiles. On other hand, the DRDO product is expected to be useful even when the fourth and fifth generation missiles are fired. However, DRDO cannot go ahead till it gets a stronger box to pack the material.

The second round of user trials has been delayed for almost two years now for want of the new casing. The earlier casing was also outsourced from a private vendor, who could not come up with a better version so far.

The trials were undertaken on aircraft like MIG 21, Jaguar, and Mirage 2000. Trials have proved that the DRDO system is better than the existing system used by the IAF. The casings have been made through impact extrusion technology. The existing product is reported to have been co-developed by Chemring and the city-based firm. It is likely that private industries coming to the exhibition may like to develop one.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Feb 2016 16:55

I think that Indian Pvt Companies have at-last learned to deal with import love by selling their products through foreign Companies.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 09 Feb 2016 17:06

^ this is farcical. i am sorry there are no other words for this, this is a farce.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 09 Feb 2016 20:41

Not a farce.. the local company may be under some contractual obligations.. there is likely IPR involved, where the local company is merely the manufacturer of something that is designed abroad. These things happen.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Feb 2016 21:00

Hmm - sounds like a case for industrial espionage no?

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 09 Feb 2016 22:38

sudeepj wrote:Not a farce.. the local company may be under some contractual obligations.. there is likely IPR involved, where the local company is merely the manufacturer of something that is designed abroad. These things happen.

its not about local company - its just that we are stuck for 2 years due to an issue of this nature. Just shows a lack or urgency and seriousness overall on whoever is responsible for this program (most probably some babu in MOD)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Feb 2016 23:31

I hope now people realize why I was so concerned about India's SMEs not being taken over by firms abroad for trivial amounts.

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Feb 2016 23:56

Guys .. you are missing the whole point !! .. when i read this i was like wtf ! ..only in India .. now what if the situation was in China ? .. now think about that ..there are a myriad ways it can be done thanks to the Chinese

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Feb 2016 00:14

>>On other hand, the DRDO product is expected to be useful even when the fourth and fifth generation missiles are fired.

Able to jam dual color (4G) and IIR (5G) seekers? If so, big deal.
Buy it from Chemring and get trials fixed.. better local solution w/markup than full import.

>>Trials have proved that the DRDO system is better than the existing system used by the IAF.

Israeli ones on IAF MiGs IIRC

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 10 Feb 2016 12:03

maxratul wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Not a farce.. the local company may be under some contractual obligations.. there is likely IPR involved, where the local company is merely the manufacturer of something that is designed abroad. These things happen.
its not about local company - its just that we are stuck for 2 years due to an issue of this nature. Just shows a lack or urgency and seriousness overall on whoever is responsible for this program (most probably some babu in MOD)

What immediately comes to mind is was how Dr Kalam indigenized the beryllium diaphragms needed by ISRO. Espionage, reverse engineering, everything can be good for the nation. Sorely lack the initiative and will which are probably the only things required.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Feb 2016 12:42

could be necoindia

making a box for CMDS system is not exactly a task like machining the core of a n-weapon or designing its explosive casing lens or a isro 48000rpm turbopump or the barrel of a fabled 25 liter chamber 155/52....there are so many cos in india machine tools and auto sectors who should be able to do it. I think people are using tendering loop as a crutch to hide failure and buy time.

eg http://www.peekaysteel.com/

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Feb 2016 17:04

^^ It probably has some alloy sourced from someplace the british & nagpur company won't talk about or is not easy to machine. And being the usual SDRE budgeted item, nobody will take a stand and indigenize it from some scratch item either.

If it was failure, the IAF would have called it out instead of asking for round 2 trials without issue being fixed.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Feb 2016 02:38

Rafale anticipates Litening LDP and Spice deal with India

The Indian government is expected to give final approval to a large defence systems deal with Israel within a month, covering equipment including Rafael Litening targeting pods and Spice 250 precision-guided bombs worth $500 million.

According to sources related to the deal, the contract will include 164 Litening pods, likely to be carried by the Indian air force's Sukhoi Su-30 fighters. It will also include a large number of Spice 250s, add the sources.

Rafael is promoting its new-generation Litening 5, which can detect targets from long range and support intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance activities.

The wing kit-equipped Spice 250 glide bomb offers a standoff-range strike capability of up to 54nm (100km). The weapon can be preloaded with up to 100 optional targets, and can also strike moving targets. It also has a battle damage indication capability, by transmitting target images just before impact.

Unlike the previous members of the Spice family, which came in the kit form and were attached to 1,000lb and 2,000lb "dumb" bombs, Rafael's lighter-weight Spice 250 is supplied as a complete system, enabling fighters to carry an increased load.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 Feb 2016 12:18

http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... ccelite-xr

"e fifth generation of the targeting pod that defined this product category two decades ago is now capable of targeting from long range, enabling strike aircraft to employ guided weapons from standoff range without relying on external support.

Litening 5 employs a new sensor pack, utilizing an optical assembly and larger aperture tailored specifically for the new sensors, enabling the increased identification and recognition distance. The pod uses two FLIRS – a Mid-Wave Infra-Red (IR) and Short Wave IR (SWIR). The later extends observation range using active laser illumination. Complementing the sensor pack is a color CCD HD-TV, improving target recognition and separation of man-made objects that are often harder to spot in the thermal, monochromatic image. Color improves the ability to share a common understanding with ground forces and recognize specific vehicles based on their color. Images can be fused or displayed separately, based on the level of avionics used in the aircraft.

Rafael’s “image-based common targeting language,” also known as Matchguide, is integrated in the new pod. This allows rapid target handoff between the targeting pod or ground-based forward air controller and guided weapons carried on board. Matchguide is fully integrated in the Litening 5, enabling the pilot or ground controller to designate a target simply by touching its image on a display to deliver the targeting as coordinates or a scene to the attacking weapon. This method dramatically shortens the “sensor to shooter cycle.”"

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2016 12:32

What cant DRDO take up project to make these Lightening pod and Glide bombs in India for fleet wide deployment , Seems we are importing Lightening stuff from its first variant and importing stuff that we can make it India instead of spending $500 million to import and then we will have Lightening 6 and Spice 2 to import

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 11 Feb 2016 13:48

^Slowly getting there. We can't run before we even learn how to walk right?

IRDE develops advanced 24x7 cams
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Vis ... 213835.ece

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2016 14:00

Arun Menon wrote:^Slowly getting there. We can't run before we even learn how to walk right?

IRDE develops advanced 24x7 cams
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Vis ... 213835.ece

Yes Slowly , Considering we have procured from Lightening 1 to 5 , the pace is just too slow , Wont be more than 4 years project for DRDO to develp these thigs but there is no serious initiative and we are happy importing Lighening and Spice till nth iterative.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 11 Feb 2016 15:14

^I don't think it is that easy. We may be able to develop something within 4 to 5 years (like the above project, I presume), but it will be at least a generation behind the current Litening. So, long as we are willing to buy that in bulk, it would be worth continuing the project for maybe a decade in whole until we catch up to the Israelis at least, if not the Americans. So, it would not just take a effort on the part of DRDO (not to mention funding), it would also require IAF to give up the best they can get for something home made. You think we are ready to do that right now?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Feb 2016 15:35

^^ We will never catch up with Israel till we start making them , If DRDO can start making Pod of Lightening 1/2 standard it would still be a great achievement , atleast they have to start from some where to catchup else we just keep importing in the hope of catching up with them , its like running on parallel track where both cannot meet.

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Feb 2016 16:45

Kartik wrote:Rafale anticipates Litening LDP and Spice deal with India

The Indian government is expected to give final approval to a large defence systems deal with Israel within a month, covering equipment including Rafael Litening targeting pods and Spice 250 precision-guided bombs worth $500 million.

According to sources related to the deal, the contract will include 164 Litening pods, likely to be carried by the Indian air force's Sukhoi Su-30 fighters. It will also include a large number of Spice 250s, add the sources.

Rafael is promoting its new-generation Litening 5, which can detect targets from long range and support intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance activities.

The wing kit-equipped Spice 250 glide bomb offers a standoff-range strike capability of up to 54nm (100km). The weapon can be preloaded with up to 100 optional targets, and can also strike moving targets. It also has a battle damage indication capability, by transmitting target images just before impact.

Unlike the previous members of the Spice family, which came in the kit form and were attached to 1,000lb and 2,000lb "dumb" bombs, Rafael's lighter-weight Spice 250 is supplied as a complete system, enabling fighters to carry an increased load.

If article true, Spice-250 will add a quantum jump in the IAF's strike capability for every platform. Even a small fighter like the LCA could carry anywhere from 8 to 20 Spice-250s in quad packs.

If the unit cost is around $80,000+, that would mean over 5,000 units are being acquired for $500 million.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Feb 2016 17:14

5000 units, of anything, should be produced in India! Absolutely no excuse to import them fully built. Often IAF orders are financing assembly lines abroad. Let's build it here!

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 11 Feb 2016 17:25

Indeed a cutting edge weapon which allows LCA to easily carry 12-16 of these. However, 280 million of the 500 million will go for the Litening Pods, they cost roughly 1.7 million per unit and we are getting 164 of these. Spice 500-1000s sell for around 55-70K per unit, Spice 250 should be cheaper normally. I think we shoulkd easily get around 2500+ bombs for the price. Ideally we need more i.e around a stock of 12000 units or more hence a good candidate for 'Make in India'. Everything from Jags, LCA, Mirages, MKI, Mig-29s should be able to deploy it.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 11 Feb 2016 17:26

srai wrote:
Kartik wrote:Rafale anticipates Litening LDP and Spice deal with India

covering equipment including Rafael Litening targeting pods and Spice 250 precision-guided bombs worth $500 million.

it is cost of both

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 11 Feb 2016 17:36

This Litening/Spice deal is where the FDI limit in defense starts to NOT make sense. Buying off the shelf is worse from an economic standpoint than 100% FDI and made in India. At least they have to employ Indians during the manufacturing process.

DRDO don't have the manpower let alone the R&D funding and direction. Sad but we not only import platforms and avionics, we also import bullets, rifles and bombs. We could just as well outsource defense to the Israelis.