Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

[Philip]

Carter? Famous saying.Putting the Cart-er before the ass!

[keshavchandra]

http://idrw.org/india-successfully-test ... c-missile/

According to the New Indian Express, the Arihant-based K-4 test was “conducted on March 31 nearly 45 nautical miles away from Vishakhapatnam coast in Andhra Pradesh.” The K-4 missile was fired from theArihant‘s onboard SLBM silos.
India’s K-4 is an intermediate-range, nuclear-capable, submarine-launched ballistic missile. Though official details remain scarce given the project’s sensitivity, most estimates place the K-4?s range at roughly 3,500 kilometers. Recent testing of the K-4 has sought to test the full operational range of the missile. As my colleague Franz-Stefan Gady discussed in March, “the K-4 was only tested to a range of 3,000 kilometers” in previous testing. In addition to its range, recent testing as sought to test the SLBM’s accuracy. Claims by DRDO scientists and publicly available information on the system suggest that the K-4 is a highly accurate system. As Franz has discussed, DRDO scientists have boasted that the K-4 has “near zero circular error probability” and uses “a Ringer Laser Gyro Inertial navigation system.”

[ramana]

http://idrw.org/india-successfully-test ... c-missile/

According to the New Indian Express, the Arihant-based K-4 test was “conducted on March 31 nearly 45 nautical miles away from Vishakhapatnam coast in Andhra Pradesh.” The K-4 missile was fired from theArihant‘s onboard SLBM silos.
India’s K-4 is an intermediate-range, nuclear-capable, submarine-launched ballistic missile. Though official details remain scarce given the project’s sensitivity, most estimates place the K-4?s range at roughly 3,500 kilometers. Recent testing of the K-4 has sought to test the full operational range of the missile. As my colleague Franz-Stefan Gady discussed in March, “the K-4 was only tested to a range of 3,000 kilometers” in previous testing. In addition to its range, recent testing as sought to test the SLBM’s accuracy. Claims by DRDO scientists and publicly available information on the system suggest that the K-4 is a highly accurate system. As Franz has discussed, DRDO scientists have boasted that the K-4 has “near zero circular error probability” and uses “a Ringer Laser Gyro Inertial navigation system.”

How does one fire two or three missiles and come up with near zero CEP? I think too much is being claimed about K-4 and reality could be aur kuch.
Hate to be disappointed.

From the dimensions the K-4 is between A3 and C3 of the US Navy.
But reported max range 3500 km is lower based on payload weight.

[Prem]

Can this sudden test(s) be considered a signal to Carter? Timing sure looks like that way...
Who is Carter?

Carter

[member_23370]

Carter

That is the most useless carter.

[Indranil]

I don't think that the latest K-4 test was any kind of message to Carter. If they wanted to send a message, they would have tested at max range. That message has already been sent.

They wanted to check integration and firing from Arihant as quietly as possible. So, they went for this elevated trajectory, issued a NOTAM of just 700 kms and tried to keep everything in secrecy. My guess is that more K-4 tests have been carried out just like this. Remember, by the time the press got wind of K-15, it had been tested more than 10 times! Why would K-4 be any different? The K-4 is albeit a little harder to hide. But, I feel they want to keep it as secretive as they can. However, unfortunately, one of Rout's connection at Balasore/ITR sang.

By the way, I can assure you that Rout is a real person. And his connections are very real. So, you can trust the news items he writes. His positive and negative commentary on a subject are basically what his sources are telling him. However, recently, he has started amplifying their sentiments with a little bit of masala. The pressures of today's journalism, I say. I look forward to his articles, read them, strip off the masala and keep the information.

[Prem]

CarterThat is the most useless carter.

He visited India to cap the Nuclear programme and was architect of many four letter treaties, groups aimed at Desh. Now a new carter want to unravel all of old Carter.

[shiv]

I don't think that the latest K-4 test was any kind of message to Carter. If they wanted to send a message, they would have tested at max range. That message has already been sent.

They wanted to check integration and firing from Arihant as quietly as possible. So, they went for this elevated trajectory, issued a NOTAM of just 700 kms and tried to keep everything in secrecy. My guess is that more K-4 tests have been carried out just like this. Remember, by the time the press got wind of K-15, it had been tested more than 10 times! Why would K-4 be any different? The K-4 is albeit a little harder to hide. But, I feel they want to keep it as secretive as they can. However, unfortunately, one of Rout's connection at Balasore/ITR sang.

By the way, I can assure you that Rout is a real person. And his connections are very real. So, you can trust the news items he writes. His positive and negative commentary on a subject are basically what his sources are telling him. However, recently, he has started amplifying their sentiments with a little bit of masala. The pressures of today's journalism, I say. I look forward to his articles, read them, strip off the masala and keep the information.

+1

I don't like this tendency to declare tests as signals to visitors because it devalues our own engineers and scientists to monkeys who are ready at any time to put up a firework display for mehmaan, while the latter is being raised in importance to a VVVVVIP. That attributes a massive sepoy mentality to our own people. Tests are serious business with telemetry, ships near splashdown area, weather etc to be taken into account. Imagining that all this simply fell in place in time for some joker's visit is less likely than simply buffoonery and display of big di*k that is done by the likes of Pakistan and North Korea. And incidentally China

[Supratik]

What exactly are they scared off? Typical SDRE stuff. Saar, saar, please, please - we have only chota maal and only 700 kms. And we want to be a superpower!!!

[shiv]

What exactly are they scared off? Typical SDRE stuff. Saar, saar, please, please - we have only chota maal and only 700 kms. And we want to be a superpower!!!

The point is that we were not demonstrating anything for the benefit of Carter. The only thing that they may have been "afraid of" is revealing the location of Arihant by sending out a NOTAM warning of 3000 km from some point in mid ocean. They probably sent out a NOTAM for just 700 km parallel to the coast so no one who was following maritime warnings would have guessed what might have been coming and specially designated satellites and intel monitoring to pinpoint Arihant and later follow it, after noting the launch point. Every asset in the Indian Ocean owned by Unkil, China, Oz would have been looking and listening in concentric circles around the launch point if it was made public. There are probably known and unknown buoys in the ocean and India will be spoofing the known ones and avoiding the unknown one by taking necessary stealth precautions. I am sure ships of IN must have swept and mapped the entire area beforehand to make sure it was clear. The missile was quietly launched and Arihant would have stayed underwater and vanished, with the news appearing days later.

[Supratik]

That would hold true irrespective of the distance. I hope this secrecy and 700 km is only becoz of the K4Mk1 being tested from the Arihant for the first time and nothing else e.g. if it blew up the vessel it would be a huge setback.

[shiv]

That would hold true irrespective of the distance. I hope this secrecy and 700 km is only becoz of the K4Mk1 being tested from the Arihant for the first time and nothing else e.g. if it blew up the vessel it would be a huge setback.

"If it blew the vessel" is a fear that only we who are outside have. I think we need to have confidence in our engineers and scientists to have worked this out well. After all why should you only fear a blown Arihant. The missile probably travelled full range in a lofted trajectory and landed in the NOTAM designated zone. If our people were that dumb it could have flown haywire and landed somewhere in India, or Myanmar, or Pakistan, or China. Or Sri Lanka or Malaysia. After all a Paki missile landed in Iran and a NoKo missile blew up its own submarine.

Why should we express worries that our stuff may be like Pak/NoKo when we express no worries about Khan and Russia? Surely our people are just as good. It is our own attitude that comes out.

[ramana]

That would hold true irrespective of the distance. I hope this secrecy and 700 km is only becoz of the K4Mk1 being tested from the Arihant for the first time and nothing else e.g. if it blew up the vessel it would be a huge setback.

Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF) : So above fears are unfounded.

Modern rocket fuels burn and don't explode.

Also payloads have no to little explosives in them.

The front end motors preclude a launch fallback.

The numerous safety features in every sub-system make this concern a very remote probability.

Shiv, its not dumb but accident when missile goes off course.

Test missiles have destruct systems for range safety.
Indian range safety is world class and have full authority and control.

Kalam ensured that they are separate organization right from early days of IGMDP.

[Supratik]

Secrecy I understand. But what do you think is the reason behind reduced range? Is it geo-political or to hide a K4 test under K15 range or is there some scientific explanation.

[ramana]

High loft is to check out the high Qbar for the RV as it reenters normal to the atmosphere.
Typically the graph looks like a stretched handkerchief held at one corner.
RVs see max heating at slant angle and max aero forces at zero angle.
So check at these two conditions. And repeat at least two times of total four tests.

[Supratik]

OK

[member_23370]

It would be difficult to hide a high loft test as the altitude will be in 800-1000 km range? Surprisingly none of the K-4 test mention the altitude reached. Unlike A-3/4 and 5 where DRDO press release mention the altitude. I doubt the K-4/5 can do a horizontal flight at 40-50 km with rolling like K-15 missile.

[Indranil]

Supratik ji, the impact of the missile leaving the submarine will be the same in both cases. Remember that the rockets to light up only after the missile has breached the surface of the ocean.

Also, Shivji is right. If range does not have to checked, why would you spend on sending telemetry and observation ships on 8000 km roundtrip?

Actually, by now they are very sure of missile to have shot from near Vizag in a north easternly direction, i.e. towards land!

[member_23370]

True, I was surprised by the direction of NOTAM. Usually its fired towards the south (Indonesia, Andaman sea).

[ShauryaT]

It would be difficult to hide a high loft test as the altitude will be in 800-1000 km range? Surprisingly none of the K-4 test mention the altitude reached. Unlike A-3/4 and 5 where DRDO press release mention the altitude. I doubt the K-4/5 can do a horizontal flight at 40-50 km with rolling like K-15 missile.

Thought the entire K series had a boost glide hypersonic RV. On altitude, is it possible the K series trajectory is all endo atmospheric?

[member_23370]

I don't know if its possible to do a fully endo-atmospheric flight to3-4K km. K-15 may be able to do 700 km at 50 Km altitude but I doubt it can do 1800 km or so that is claimed to be max range.

[tsarkar]

The coastal waters of West Bengal are a better bet for a true 3,500 km range:

Good Work, Pratik. The littoral waters also mask submarine noise.

[PratikDas]

The coastal waters of West Bengal are a better bet for a true 3,500 km range:

Good Work, Pratik. The littoral waters also mask submarine noise.

Thank you! Littoral - need to remember that word. I had to look up the difference between coastal and littoral. The former is from the point of view of a landlubber, which I think was very revealing in this case

[SaiK]

LiDAR or MAD?

[wig]

INS Arihant undergoing sea acceptance trails
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 868002.cms
excerpts

INS Arihant is now undergoing sea acceptance trials as it had already passed several deep sea diving drills, Flag Officer-Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Naval Command, Vice-Admiral HCS Bisht told reporters here.
"The submarine will be commissioned after completing all the sea-trials," he added.
INS Arihant, a 6,000-tonne submarine, is country's first indigenous nuclear submarine and can launch nuclear weapons from underwater.

[Gagan]

Arihant Commissioned Secretly? Anyone hear anything?

[ramana]

Read above report. Its still undergoing sea acceptance trials. it will be commissioned after that. Sub firing trials could be part of those trials.

What they are saying is the trials so far were technical trials to proof the deep sea diving capacity etc.

[Gagan]

I hear things from the usual grapewine...
One hears that formal commissioning is close

[member_23370]

What abt Aridaman? That's supposed to go into water soon.

[member_23370]

http://xxx.dawn.com/news/1253504/indian ... ign-office

Pakis..whining about the K-4 test. China must be worried if they had to nudge their whore to protest.

[JTull]

If the test is offshore, my guess is they didn't they need to be informed. Theoretically India could have done this test in the southern ocean.

NOTAM will always be published anyway, but it wouldn't talk of specific missiles.

[Karthik S]

Apologies if posted earlier.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/indias-u ... deterrent/

[ramana]

Any updates on INS Arihant?

[Kersi D]

That would hold true irrespective of the distance. I hope this secrecy and 700 km is only becoz of the K4Mk1 being tested from the Arihant for the first time and nothing else e.g. if it blew up the vessel it would be a huge setback.

"If it blew the vessel" is a fear that only we who are outside have. I think we need to have confidence in our engineers and scientists to have worked this out well. After all why should you only fear a blown Arihant. The missile probably travelled full range in a lofted trajectory and landed in the NOTAM designated zone. If our people were that dumb it could have flown haywire and landed somewhere in India, or Myanmar, or Pakistan, or China. Or Sri Lanka or Malaysia. After all a Paki missile landed in Iran and a NoKo missile blew up its own submarine.

Why should we express worries that our stuff may be like Pak/NoKo when we express no worries about Khan and Russia? Surely our people are just as good. It is our own attitude that comes out.

INFERIORITY COMPLEX

Goras are always better than us.

Fortunately today's youngsters do not have this mental block

[pkudva]

I Guess, The commissioning or the News on the INS Arihant will surface unless the NSG Meet and discussions are done. It will have strategic implications while speaking at Global Forum.

[shiv]

INFERIORITY COMPLEX

Goras are always better than us.

Everywhere I see this tendency to echo the gora viewpoint and the gora snootiness of turd world stuff combined with deep fears that Indian stuff is inferior and will fail. We are confident in our predictions of our failures and other's successes, but we get all nervous about our stuff - and see dhoti-shiver posts when it comes to sat launches and missile launches. We slap down and criticise people who are confident about India and have a readymade list of reasons why such confidence is misplaced. It is national disease and not even BRF is not free.

[Manish_Sharma]

I remember reading that F-15 has airframe life is 15,000 hrs. even after being on BRF for some time i gulped it down, in my mind I thought that americans made each and every part with such advanced tech that A/c just flies for 15000 hours. Only later to be enlightened here that they do so by spending humongous amount of money by replacing parts.

Later when Shiv ji revealed here brf that f-22 needs 30 hrs of service for flying just 1 hour I began to see the american tech is also human not getting straight from vishwakarma.

West has created this mass hypnosis just like chinese kung fu films. First the master teaches tortures student by making him do back breaking impossible excercises; and after that when in fight the fighters kick each other while flying for 30 - 40 seconds we gulp it down, thinking these powers must be developed by those xtreme excercises.

While our own stuff is never advertised like this:


Imagine our own MoD creating Arihant Diesel Electric ad like this OR for Shakti thermal torpedo like this:


So from childhood we grow up watching only french british or americans stuff like this.

I used to have a few photos of jaguar jet torn from some magazines in younger days. Some far away relatives who were living in canada visited us and i showed there children my collection of fighter jet photos torn from newspapers and magazines. They were nice and generous people, a couple of years later when they came they brought so many glossy pics and posters of F-16 for me, the sharpness and glossy quality, photos taken professionally for advts. compared to my own pics gave such an impression of superior product many centuries advanced.

Then we also have our own Vinod Dua types who on eve of LCA IOC-1, presented half an hour of programme "re-inventing the wheel" in hindi ndtv. Saying on the lines that since these types of planes are invented we shouldn't have wasted money on such thing.

But now BRF, FB, internet are changing things fast.

[Rishirishi]

Here is a 50 min documentry of how to build a nuke sub. Gives an insight of how complex it is to build a nuke sub.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ODDjsK0BOg

[salaam]

This total clamp down on Arihant Series news is making this jingo very morose.

[Rakesh]

The navies of the world do not talk about their submarines. A saying from a retired Indian Navy Admiral. Obviously that fell on deaf ears to the reporter of the Australian.