Bharat Rakshak

The best part was being able to identify the aircraft flying from the engine noise while inside the hangars!Shiv and I both found it so.The SU-30MKI' Saturn-Lyulka engines make an unmistakable crackling sound once heard,never forgotten!

Maz,details of MACMET's wares can easily be obtained.They were kind enough to send me a few invitations to the show.One intersting item on display in the DRDO stall.Astra.Range upto 80km.In size virtually the same as the Israeli Derby BVR missile.The DRDO technix said that the Astra was superior to the Israeli missile ,both from the propellant used as well as manoeuvrability.Derby was also shown in a tracked vehicle with a multiple launcher for air defence.Shiv's CD on the air show should be a must for every BR enthusiast.I have some footage too which I'm going to give him to add on shortly.
A funny thing happened at the Israeli stall.We took a close look at the new Israeli small arms/special forces weapons (which the Army is apparently acquiring)displayed in a theft proof "box".Some jokers watching said that the would love to steal the toys,the next day the items disappeared from the show.obviously removed by the Israelis.A pity.

Or lights, of course.

Woahh...Was THAT a BR meet! Phew!

Can we start a seperate thread for that - I will post the pics by tonight!

Vents for the machine gun, of course! Now, they have to turn the whole craft for aiming at the target!??!

The Mother of all BR Meets. :cool:

Okay gents, now get busy producing the VCDs. I'll pay good money to get my hands on a copy (a la AkashYodha).

Second that!!

You start a thread Jagan - and I will post my pics after you post yours.

Some more pictures:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03batradar.jpg
This shows a line up of India (BEL?) made Battlefield surveillance radars. Somewher under the umbrella you can see the armored laptop type control unit. The radars, operate on multiple frequencies and can see a crawling man at 7 km, and a vehicle at 25 km. It has a rechrageable lithium battery that lasts 8 hours and is easliy replaceable - unlike the Lead-Acid batteries apparently supplied with some imported units. The set up can be carried by 3 men on backpacks.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03wlr.jpg
The Indiagenous weapon-locating radar is based on "Rajendra technology" and is able to locate incoming artillery shells, compute their point of origin and feed the info to friendly units, and then see the outgoing shells and say whether they have hit the offending enemy artillery piece.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03astraspec.jpg
The Astra missile is apparently not yet a formally sanctioned "front burner" project. Ground firing test have been done and air to air firing tests are to commence "shortly"

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03mig29.jpg
It had a centerline drop-tank and missiles as seen.

Has this been field tested/ ordered by the army ? We have about 12 WLR orders from raytheon. Where do these fit into the picture.

3D Acquisition radar on Tatra truck from DRDO pavillion

Trying to upload other pics - but my FTP is giving problems - so later in the night!

This is the infamous WLR project taken up by DRDO in the early 90s. Not having much success with it, they gave up on it and left the army high and dry 1998 during Kargil who then could not acquire the Raytheon radars due to sanctions.

Looks like they have finished it to an extent. Still, I doubt the army is satisfied since the Raytheon order was recently placed.

>>>Originally posted by maz:

>>What about the Israeli vendors? Any news from them?

I heard they were clamming up everytime interesting questions were asked.

>>What is up with IJT? There is nothing about this plane in the news.

Kicha made a speech in which he referred to the IJT and also said that the SuryaKirans will be the first to get the lot

>>How about Army Aviation? Any of u guys go an get materials from them?

Plenty of stuff - Rupak's to write a detailed feature on them, kaps and me have tons of photos of Dhruv, Lancer, AAC Patches etc

>>Someone get pix of the all the mock ups and models?

A few with me .. not all.

Jagan:
Could you please comment about the 'navigators' of No.20 that were seen during Aero-India. I think that would make a great discussion in the aerospace thread.

good picture. What is the deal with inclined wheels on that truck?

Bad choice of depicted 'enemy' IMO. That looks like an F-18 Hornet!

VVerma, be careful with drawing such conclusions regarding army dissatisfaction. If I remember correctly, the prototype for the WLR only rolled out after the Raytheon deal was signed.
Then factor in time for technical and user trials.

Gentlemen, the 3-D Central Acquisition radar is big news - esp. if anyone found out what types of targets it can track - since it indicates that DRDO has finally brought the Akash to the user trials stage.

Any more news and pics from the Aero India team ?
Any luck with the questions on the list ?

Shiv, et al,

Thanks a ton(ne?) for *ALL*.

Best part IMHO:

We have arrived.

Now to produce them and then develop similar in the future.

<I>> VVerma, be careful with drawing such conclusions regarding army dissatisfaction. If I remember correctly, the prototype for the WLR only rolled out after the Raytheon deal was signed.
Then factor in time for technical and user trials.
</I>

The WLR is, but one version of the Rajendra radar. BTW, the Rajendra is classified as a technology demonstrator!

<I>>>Gentlemen, the 3-D Central Acquisition radar is big news - esp. if anyone found out what types of targets it can track - since it indicates that DRDO has finally brought the Akash to the user trials stage.
</I>
Yep, Akash is finally through to the user trials stage! At last, it looks like all problems were sorted out. Apparently, there was never a problem with its associated Rajendra radar, or so it is claimed.

3-D CAR can track fighter sized targets out to about 150 kms. This is mentioned in the brochure.
Nitin will probably remember more details of what we were told.

<I>>>Any more news and pics from the Aero India team ?
</I>
I have a few picture still to be developed. I missed taking upgraded the L70 pictures, as also pictures of the maritime surveillance radar for the ALH/Dhruv. But I got could have got pictures of the inside of the 3D-CAR truck, WLR truck. Too little time... :-(

Radars, I think we are hitting critical mass here.

Someone asked what the deal with the inclined wheels of the 3D-CAR vehicle was - it is a Tatra all terrain truck, complete with inclinable wheels and probably also variable pressure tires to negotiate soft, uneven ground.

I've uploaded some of my pics here,

http://www.keymags.co.uk/dcforum/DCForumID2/6691.html

Check em out.

Here's a quiz question,

Q.Phazatron's Zhuk-F literature featured the last thing you'd expect to see for something being advertised in India.What?

Harry,

Did it say FC-1?

Watch it yaw, catch it spin: With Sukhoi it's always win-win

BANGALORE: "It's awesome," gushes the man about his mighty machine. Other pilots would give anything to get strapped into the cockpit of the Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter, and Wing Commander Nirmal Singh Jamwar, the pilot flying them at Aero India 2003, worships the complex machine.

"I have flown the Su-30 earlier. The MKI version is entirely different. This craft has thrust-vectoring, is more complicated and has more tasks to perform," the ace pilot says.

Thrust-vectoring gives the aircraft its ability to manoeuvre. While Jamwar gives the 39-tonne machine _ even the AN-32 weighs just 27 tonnes _ full points, the fighter's multi-role capability gives it the edge in every type of engagement.

Over Yelahanka, Jamwar does a complex manoeuvre, climbing up to 1.3 km after a roll-out. A small semi-loop later, he takes a 180 degree yaw turn. He rolls the machine on its back, does tight box turns and takes a turn at 650 km per hour exerting hard G-forces on himself and the co-pilot. The aircraft behaves superbly _ these manoeuvres make it superior during a dog fight.

The fighter is capable of flying much slower than the 180-200 kmph that it flies here. As for manoeuvrability, the 180 degree yaw turn is the ultimate _ it turns like a helicopter and does not bank like a conventional aircraft at any speed. "I learnt the yaw turn while being a test pilot. I learnt them from my buddies who flew copters."

Of course, Jamwar does not do the cobra manoeuvre made famous by the Sukhoi-30 pilots at the last edition here, as the MKI version is not meant for aerobatics. The cobra performed by them was on machines that were much lighter and without fly-by-wire control.

"If the MKI does a cobra, the fly-by-wire technology in it will lift the aircraft more than necessary," says Jamwar who has flown MiG 21s, MiG 29 and Su-30Ks in a career spanning 20 years.

Jamwar is among the first batch of pilots flying the Sukhoi 30 MKIs and this is the first time that the IAF is showing off the newly-raised squadron at an air show.

The mighty machine needs two pilots, but can be flown singly too. While the pilot in front flies the craft, the co-pilot in the rear can train.

Back in their Pune-based squadron, the pilots are on training and fly every day. "All pilots are trained for missions on what is called consolidation. Flying in an operational squadron is like a realistic simulator," says Jamwar.

web page

From JDW:

Merlin,
I went to the LRDE stand the next day too.Do you have the official stuff for the WLR and the DLRL ESM system?I just couldnt get to those guys.No time

Please email me at nitinvenkatesh@yahoo.com .

Guys the WLR has cleared all army trials flawlessly.It is a modified Rajendra,with updates made to the S/W and other things.The pic you see is of an operational radar and the white kinda covering-thats the radome to cover the phase shifters.It does have imported componets-but they-except one-are of the absic type,which everyone imports.Even Israel or Netherlands or this or that.What you do with that stuff is the real Mc coy.This COTS -Commercial Off the Shelf-approach reduces developement time,avoids obsolescence and ensures easy production.Key sanctioned items are made in India.

Regarding Rajendra and what Merlin said,before anyone gets all worked up.The Rajendra is a technology demonstartor as in -it provides the tech for other variants-like the WLR.
At the same time,it is also a weapons system component not a "developent project".The system itself has cleared all trials quite some time back.What is holding it up is the Akash,which frankly has good news recently.The development of other variants is purely dependent on Funding,as teh Rajendra itself is a purpose built system; which the services will use as part of the CAR-Rajendra-Akash system,not standalone.For that other variants are planned.That should suffice for now.

Maz,
I do have a basic engineering background and a rudimentary common sense.Hence i can distinguish between claims and truth!

If you wish to have a comparison between the Elta and the BFSR-SR,heck yes!I owe it to LRDE for their courtesy and frankly their hard work.However i would wish to make it a complete article on all radars-the CAR,WLR,BFSR-SR which these chaps put on display.

Like Rupak and i discussed,i am tied up for this month due to certain stuff(Sunil ,i got your kick : ) ) but the details are in my grey cells and elsewhere and deserve to be put online.

I will also need the help of the good doctor Shiv and the other Blore crowd who collected brochure.My modus operandi was to collect what the chap spoke and compare with what i knew and grill in turn.
And apparently,from what i could gather,i do know something of whats on.One thing,when the opposite chap knows you are serious,he will share.Some clam up as they are frankly surprised when someone asks quick questions ins equence and knows about the product beforehand but thats to be expected.For example,the main DRDO stand-which i couldnt get to much ofthe products(and i hope Kersi and Raj did) had equal mixtures of both types.

FWIW,and Merlin was with me-the gent in charge of the CAR was not asked any "Easy" questions.I request Merlin's silence at this point over what we discussed but both of us were pretty much forthright.And we were given honest answers in turn ,no BS.

We even reiterated the need for their publicity and the website to be decent.Look at the confusion -and even i was a victim -of assuming the BFSR to be a ripoff of the Elta one for instance.Guys,the radar from inside out is different.If one thing has been copied,its the "look" and the traversing mechanism.FWIW,the Israeli developers ambled over to the LRDE guys and struck up a rapport;they appreciated the design.

The reason why i couldnt spare time for the bulk of DRDO and BEL products-and any foreign one-was the time spent at certain items.Some extremely non-glamorous but whose tale deserves hearing.
Especially the IAF Base Repair Depots.They have done incredible work at certain levels.

I only wish i had managed my time better and met Kapil earlier(at the show).Working in concert would have been a real force multiplier and i kid you not,we would have got the whole tech side under our thumbs.

And i would have been in turn beena ble to contribute to ana overview of Aero India tech as a whole !
I got inside the hangars -the stalls-on the final day at approx 2:30 when the show ends at 5 pm.

Regarding BFSR-SR,the army evaluated the Elta and came up with their GSQR specific to the IA-this is what the Indian BFSR-SR is.

This original requirement-afresh-came to the chaps fro the IAF after Kargil and once the import of the Israeli stuff had been finalised.

Guys,we have reached a threshold of indian technology which is truely remarkable.BEL has reached maturity as a true high tech production house with serious production ready items on the shopfloor.I was-frankly-amazed-to be continuously told "cleared trials,tech transferred to BEL" for quite a few items.

And we are rocking in Electronic systems.

Once again,i'll need the B'lore crowd's help-once i clear up my pending stuff-and we can do i justice-with whatever we have on board to what we have achieved in Indian defence.

Regarding BEL and "indigenous" and then screwdriver tech,if you are talking of foreign tie-ups and radars perhaps.The Indian designed items dont have any technogy transfer.they are all system configured and designed from the ground up in india and the technology transferred to BEL.
For those who bemoan DRDO not approaching the pvt sector,the BFSR would nt bethere today but for them doing the opposite.What the pvt sector could do,they did-and that was quite a bit.The core stuff-signal processors etc,LRDE handled.BEL was the production house here.
In other items,BEL is the developer.

And a pragmatic decision has been made.Import what we are behindin ,make the rest here and combine.
An Autrotracker with FLIR in a gimballed assmebly will have the Autrotracker with GAssembly from india,and FLIR from abroad.

Regards,
Nitin

Regarding astra, how would it handle chaff and flares, and other heat disturbances?

PS:

I guess, it must memorize the "locked-target heat signature" say a value x. When other heat disturbances occur, it is compared against the value "x", and keep homing on the x value rather on the other heat signatures.

am i thinking right?

Ok,regarding the Lancer-chopper is good.Handles well,addition weight actually makes it more stable.Area support weapon not precision strike.Should work well in CI.As birds come in tactics will be developed.
That should be ok for now.

N,
You writing up stuff for BRM on the Base Repair Depot?

Harry,
Missed the BR meet?

>>>>Q.Phazatron's Zhuk-F literature featured the last thing you'd expect to see for something
being advertised in India.What?

Didnt go to the stall.I'd wager Su30MKK radar-in service.

G,
before that,you know what i have to do.The Su30MKK.

------------
Regarding the "other" article.

Regarding the Arjun article for BRM,and Rakesh needs it.I'll send up a small alteration to the basic stuff.For BRM we need a comprehensive one and i still cant find a crewman!I have gone to extreme lengths to suffice but heck,if we just had to assume and proceed,that wouldnt do us good.
If anyone knows guys who have seen recent stuff,give me a holler at nitinvenkatesh@yahoo.com.

There have been some real positive developments of late and AeroI confirmed one.But we need accuarcy.Just dont wanna guess or assume one even the minutest thing.

Regards,
Nitin

Nitin,

I cannot understand what having an engineering degree has to do with discering marketing talk. Don’t you think for a moment that I would like to see wholly made in India systems too? Like I told you, if the DRDO/armed forces people want to be candid, they will tell you that certain ‘indigenous’ systems are nothing more than locally assembled items. Another case in point: warships have this magic number of 65% indigenous content. The real question is L how do you define indigenous?

As an engr, you know that it is not feasible nor practical to build everything in a complex system. But why cant these folks say, ‘we tied up with so and so and then modified the system for our own requirements’.? It does not take anything away from their hard work.

Originally posted by Rangudu:
(From JDW:)

I had the distinct impression that the IAF wanted to increase to a strength of about 55 squadrons. :confused:

Does anyone know why our own CSIO based HUD is not being used???

Indigenous....
As discerning ,what constitutes the weapons system from the inside out.identifying key items and noting what is imported or not.Asking plain details about what is Indian or not,which assembly was made in which manner.Interesting stuff..

I dont buy marketing talk.Its plain BS in any case and the developers are frank if they know you can understand their limitations and compulsions.
I got the marketing spiel from one Kaveri man and his counterpart was the opposite right in front.Funny.

I dont believe that my degree helps in any way but with a basic fact- i dont get scared by any techno-gobbledegook and say "wow"! and wander away clutching a brochure.So that helps.

And as regards modification-who denied what?if you think BEL claims "Indigenous reporter" ,they didnt.

Even if they did,the device has Dutch language specs on its fittings.

But if the Tarang is treated the same way,then it deserves respect.

BTW,if you care,theres a chap who rememebered you.Met you at Defexpo and the previous air show.Works for a Chennai based Indian Pvt sector firm into Naval wares.I think you know the firm...

What made you think,they didnt?????
They were brutally frank and honest!

Let me put it in plain words for you.I_am_not_a_disinterested_joker_from_the_media_who_wants_catchphrases_for his rushed article.The service maintenance guys were ****ed at ToI articles for eg with good reason.I think you can scan the archives for more about the limited stuff that i do know,which does however separate me from a brochure crazed locust or the chap who goes mooneyed at the word "indigenous" and writes the same without enquiring.

Regarding tying up-heck,thats whats bloody screwdriver tech is all about.No agents-just the PSU in turn,imports SKD/CKD components and assembling.

This is dotty but thats the system.People have confirmed the sheer lack of interest in parting with proprietary tech by foreign firms no matter what,whether it be TOT or this or that.

Now,they at least have the common sense to integrate Indian "ready" items with imported ones,like WEESE championed ages ago.This approach is ruddy common sense.

The DRDO needs to come out with frank,unambiguous statements.Under the guise of the IGMDP "secrecy",the progress of even bread and butter systems-not strategic Agnis or Prithvis-like Akash,Trishul and Nag-is obscured.

A serviceman was prouder of the Nag and more appreciative of the hard work that is in it,than the BDL rep who slouched around,made guttaral noises and spoke in monosyllabic one liners.His counterpart was better,but this apathetic apparoach to PR and overriding secrecy-hiding both success and failures- is foolish.

If you're still doubtful about ELta and BFSR reports-and TOT to BEL-heres what.Thats the Elta BFSR for Artill -medium Range,not SR.

Nitin

Rajesh,

CSIO-HUD,never made it to the hangar,but heres what .The IAF wants a holographic HUD -the ultimate-for the full glass cockpit-ised LCA.Thats why El-op.
The CSIO "normal" HUD- still better than others in its class,would still be Ok for upgrades.

Check up the other avioics stuff going on.We are following that approach.

Speaking of lithium batteries.....
Shiv,

could you please e-mail me at plabs@belltlantic.net

nitin, can you confirm (or deny) the helmet for the LCA pilot will be the Israeli one... the same helmet slated for the JSF?

Nitin, I’m glad you got to meet our mutual acquaintance. Did he have good stuff to tell you? Can you email me on my pm (via the navy website) to share what he said. It is time I got in touch with him, eh?

Vick,
I am not ADA,but Harry has posted an interesting pic at AFM.

Go to harry's picture at http://www.keymags.co.uk/dcforum/DCForumID2/6691.html

Scroll down a few pictures. THis is the title

"LCA sim/cockpit mockup (Also features an Elbit DASH HMS)"

Nice pictures I must say!

The cobra performed by them was on machines that were much lighter and without fly-by-wire control.

Pure bull! Cobra was performed with an analog FBW system.

No, no bull! The FBW system was disabled (i.e. manual override) for the Cobra manoeuver. So, the IAF guy is right, the Cobra was performed without a computer in the loop.

I dunno this link came in the previous pages of this thread.. but its bare fact:

http://www.drdo-aeroindia.com/home.html

that says:

4 Cylinder 700CC two stroke engine with thrust Cradle (To be run) (VRDE) was displayed outside.

anybody saw it?