Bharat Rakshak

This thing is what Kersi's talking about! Specs here.

My album has also been updated with specs of the Al-31F, Zhuk-ME, Zhuk-MFE, Kopyo-M an un-named ukranian IR Jammer offered for IAF choppers and the TV-113 turboshaft for Mi-8s and 17s.

Joey,Kersi,Hermes,Shiv et al

So you guys really exist on this forum

the flash heli borne sonar mentions:



2 ques .

what is MRH (maritime recon helo ??)

and what the hell are they talking about in the second point ??

Going into the final post info post from AI07, I thought it is worthwhile to post this..

AI07 - experience
---------------------

it was fun - AI07. I initially intended going for 2days, but had to go the last day also.. the last day didnt turn out to be as fruitful as the previous 2days bcoz most tech people (esp at Israeli stalls, Thales etc) had left as it was a public day.. Something to be corrected for next version..

Putting work before pleasure, though i went on 3days -I clicked less than 30photos.. got only some interesting shots like the T/R modules, PSP, TarangMk2, SHIV pod on MKI etc.. And I dint see even a single day's air display fully -- though i saw all display over 3days & multiple viewings of Tejas, MKI, Mig35, SKAT displays. Spent most of the time talking and god, Did i have a great time..

I had to assume a masquerade/disguise to get answers rather than suspicious looks.. most things I had to re-clarify & re-re-clarify (at Indian stalls) by talking to different people as different guys gave different answers.. Surely there is a certain indifference attached to some guys manning Indian stalls. They bother about giving an answer, rather than the right answer.. When they dont know -- they just blurt something rather than help you find the right person.

Shiv had already give a philosophical review of AI07. so i will excuse myself that part.. but it is worth saying a few things in here –

1. It is good to see ArmyAviation & IAF indigenisation groups put up a stall... the work done by IAF indigenisation guys has to be applauded.. Kudos to BRD's involved.

2. HAL is forming its own, clear & unique vision.. where capability exists (IJT, CAT, LCH, 10ton Helo, NTA) -- they are doing siginificant design and where they dont feel so, they are getting into co-production agreements (such as Skylark) to gain a footprint..
There is no work problem at HAL for next 20-30years, I was told, by more than one HAL employee.

3. BEL/DARE/LRDE are doing a trememdous job equipping land, sea, air platforms with all kinds of equipment required.. especially in the airborne platforms area - through a mix of indigenous R&D, indigenisation R&D, JV's they are helping the nation achieve a self-reliance (far greater than half-a-decade ago) in critical stems such as EW, SPJ, CMDS etc..

And we should give no opprtunity for short-sight in this achievement and place the credit directly/indirectly at "ProjectLCA".. achievements such as MC's, CAC etc have instilled confidence and spurred all DRDO labs the courage to try & achieve.

4. Despite the delays & shortfalls, any amount of praise attributed to Tejas will be less.. we have to be patient & steadfast till a successful completion bcoz it will be the springboard on which IndianMilitaryAviation will take the next big leap.

And it goes with all projects - Akash, Nag etc.. the teams accept that there have been troubles in early development, project models (where users were not integrated at an early level), constant shifting of goalposts etc.. but now they have learnt a lot - technologically, project management wise..
If services show confidence in current systems and ask for next-gen systems -- they feel highly confident of doing a much better job.

for ex: CABS AEW&C project has 10 senior IAF officers working with the CABS/LRDE group to reduce the communicatio/expectation gap between the development agency & enduser.

5. I enjoyed the modest display put up by Tejas.. Kudos to Wg.Cdr.Harish.My chest swelled with pride.. So was the MKI’s somersault & tailslide.


But what stands us apart as a society probably can be gauged by the public reaction.. Probably it signifies the fact that we are a society not greedy after power or war, but more a society kindled by emotion & romance – the biggest cheers from the crowd were always reserved SuryaKiranAerobaticTeam.

One of the things pulling back the indigenous development is -- indifferent attitude of the services.. In the first place they dont go to DRDO with their needs & ASR ready.. when DRDO sends a proposal -- they pick holes in it at will.. As they compare it with the best available in the market -- they dont ever realise/think about howmuch R&D money we have spent comparitively..

If services finish user trials & order Akash now.. and ask for a longer range variant with better tracking/engagement numbers -- DRDL will happily do it.. bcoz they have tread the path of difficulties & failures.. they are wiser by experience and anticipate their failures much better now.. cycle time for next system is redeced dramamtically..

As one person lamented "Now everything is on internet -- they just google and give us requirements for an impossible system by copy-pasting best features of all systems.. they want American performance, Russian ruggedization, German precision at Indian economy".

The marine version of the Kaveri has apparently completed trials on a ship at Vizag.

The marine version is the same as the one for the lca with some corrosion resistance and the same thrust problems

I managed to get the guys at the BRAMHOS stall to talk and here is what I got...!

1.The SUKHOI-30MKI underbelly version of BRAMHOS is ready and weight has been reduced to 3 tonnes.Apparently the fuel required for the intial thrust could be decreased as it would be air-borne at the desired altitude on launch.

2.Target redesignation is something which is not possible at the moment because of the extremely small time to target of 6-7 minutes.What they essentially meant was at 3 X supersonic speeds data transmission would be a problem.But they are working on a version with target -redesignation.Now he talked about GPS for mid-path correction.That should be GLOSSNASS I presume.YAKHONT with GPS???

3.INS Rajput,INS Ranvijay and INS Rana to have BRAMHOS TLVs

4. 8 Tube VLS configuration for all KILO class subs(No confirmation from Naval Headquarters).The only problem is that either the KILO will carry the KLUBS or the Bramhos.

5.Weight penalty of approx 55 Tonnes per KILO if a 8 Tube configuration happens.That is going to burn some diesel ??? and what about a drop in speed by 4-5 knots.Structural strengthening of the KILOS is another bottle-neck.The Navy is still considering it.

6.ATV with BRAMHOS or SAGARIKA is being hotly debated at Naval HQ.He refused to divulge if they have access to the ATV design.

7.He said..."What are you guys doing in Software.Guys like you should be with DRDO "

Marine yaani Gas Turbine engine for marine applications. The core will be there, but instead of spinning a fan, it will spin the propellors via some gearbox. Nought to do with LCA.

I guess u meant Kaveri for Naval LCA?

There was an Mi-26 around? I must have been blind!

The Embraer was K3601 (most likely)
the 75 Yrs Sukhois were SB105 and SB106

Deleted and posted on Shuklas thread.

Good point kgoan. I will remove all personal adverts.

I am constrained to post my point of view here regarding Ajay Shukla's observations on AERO India 2007 (now sliced into a different thread but surprisingly locked).
*************************************************************


Guys you need to chill out...getting agitated with AS drivel serves no purpose.

AS could be an ass for all I care, but let us also not cover ourselves with a blanket of mediocrity.

Dhruv and IJT mishaps are and no figment of imagination. They happened, but some silly asses use it as a stick to beat with for agendas of their own. What is worrisome is that the IJT pilot was reported in BR as someone who is experienced but also a little reckless - if true, it reflects bad on everyone.

AS' criticism on DRDO may be biased, may have a motive, and may not necessarily reflect the true reality. My usage of "may" does not mean I am giving his motives and logic a free pass. If anything AS should have the balls to discuss the issue in its manifold complexities, rather JUST advertise his trash here.

As for DRDO, I have seen the motivated intellectual prostitution from Indian media deriding it in recent months with more than a black agenda. It makes me sick to my guts.

At the same time, we as a country are long on talk and short on GTJD - Getting The Job Done. I know the issues, the complexities, the cross agendas, the venality, the corruption...but at the end of the day we HAVE to do what is needed - and in many respects we have failed ourselves - no excuses there.

As for the talk - just see the announcements from IA, IAF, and IN chiefs, DRDO chief/controllers of various departments, Scientific Advisor to DM, DM over any 12 month period and you will notice no logical consistency in policy, strategy and execution. My one paisa observation - keep your mouths shut - do what you must do for the country - make sure to count your fingers after you shake hands with those inside and out in sensitive positions. Trust but verify (the DNA!)

If we are honest with ourselves, I believe we may still need inputs on specialized technologies on occasion rather than being the norm in every defence project. This needs to change - till such time jokers like AS will have a "valid" basis to beat us with a stick to make their livelihoods. Yes, we are learning fast and are coming close to a critical mass - no doubt about that.

I make the above observations with gravity (as I know the key players in missile/missile defence first hand - not saying it for boast, but to bring to bear the fact that I am in the know of the mundane difficulties faced by folks in DRDO and other classified projects), but we as a nation can do better. Substantially better. In fact, better than the VERY BEST if we can dare to dream. Kalam is a fine example, VK Sarasvat is another...there are a dozen others in the very same league - all in DRDO!

The shame is that the future of 100+ crore Indians is in the hands of less than 100 people - be it at a policy level, politician level, bureaucratic level, business level, or from an inspirational level...we need to graduate and multiply that exponentially. We are coming of age, and the cool air in India is breathing confidence like the world has never seen. I mean every word of it, having sampled people from every walk of life and across regions in India.

The problem with the likes of AS is that gulami of many flavors over the last thousand years still resides in them. Hence, the need for approval from the outside and a necessity for self-flagellation to get a badge that they are fair and square in their reporting.

Our blood will surely boil with the likes of AS and there are many, but at the same time we need some deep introspection, and the clarity of thought and purpose and motivation to note that we can do more...MUCH, MUCH MORE. Be the VERY, VERY, VERY BEST!!! That will be our sweet revenge…meanwhile let the dogs bark.


BTW, who let the dogs out?
:O)

MiG 35 was supposed to have canard foreplane and a single intake.

are you mistaken with Mig 33 ? fear not, the JF17 bandar inherits a few design features from it as also from a Romanian design.

Singha - he is. The original MiG-33 was the single engined light fighter which never got off design stages, but was plucked by our neighbours.

prdas: The MiG-35 today is a MiG-29 with few structural changes, internal ones more than external. So there are no canards. The original 35 was supposed to be with them, but it also did not make production.

Aditya, so you & MNK hit the ADA and BEL stalls!

MNK did the last AI too didnt he?

Ajai Shukla response

Hi folks,

It’s me again. You’ve inadvertently (?) locked the thread in which you were all whipping up a fine indignation.

Your reactions reveal very clearly what Bharat Rakshak is all about; after all, how one thinks governs what one is.

Your responses to my post fall along the following lines:

a. He’s a “Paki trollâ€

[quote="Ajai Shukla"]
Acharya, whoever you are, I suggest you don’t refer to the people of India as “general uninformed publicâ€

Ajai, dont worry about my name or moniker or Kakkajis either, we get by fine with it.

Considering the drivel that you write- and what a mockery you are making out of yourself by begging for attention and crawling all over this forum, I daresay its your name that deserves watching...on the way down.

As regards your name dropping, I do well remember the last time you tried that & claimed to have the ear of the Chief & made some claims about "opinions thereof", when called on it, you crawled out of this forum, head firmly tucked beneath your posterior.

Meanwhile, I'll just print out your entire poorly phrased, incoherent, dishonest rant and use it to wipe my butt, pretty please. The name Ajai Shukla will just about be fine, right there. Though I might get a rash. But thats a price I am prepared to pay.

And yes, many of us are paid for our opinions- we dont then try to weasel away by via telling all & sundry about our friends, flames, and other assorted make believe BS Bingo artists and name dropping when caught lying through ones teeth!

Ajai, get a life- I am sure you can do much more than beg everyone here for attention and implore them to please, please, oh please visit your oh so nice blog, has it been so hard lately?

And no, I dont think you write for the whole forum- doubt whether you even write for your nephew .

I dont know about you folks, but it is a good day today - because Abhiman found Ajai and vice versa! Wasnt it Valentines yesterday?

No need to bring political organizations in a debate on a Mil forum, but since you did, it shows clearly where your sympathies lie.

Are you a graduate of the JNU by the way?



Buy weapons from China? To fight who?

Next you will say, buy weapons from Pakistan. Why not? After all their Mil R&D is doing much better delivering Ghauri, Ghaznavi, Babur, Al-Khalid, and Thunder in quick time. Much better than DRDO.

Comparing the progress of Eurofighter and the LCA is ridiculous. The European Consortium had tons of experience going in to the Eurofighter project. What Ajai Shukla is saying is that since India doesn't have that experience, it should not even attempt to build that experience. He wants every country in the world to build Mil-ind capability but not India.

It scares me to think there are many more like Ajai Shukla in India's Armed Forces. Chicom has already won without firing a shot.

I saw that Shiv Aroor highly commended Ajai Shukla's drivel.

There is something strange going on. A sort of consolidation of a bunch of defense reporters to portray Indian R&D efforts in bad light. Shiv Arror did that on Indian Express earlier besides some other kindered bedfellows. Indian Express almost everyday pleads for some cause for unkil. Ajai Shukla seems to bat for chicom and russians. How can such diverse masters coax such a coherent response?

The fact is that hostile powers and arms sellers lobby all have a common interest in putting down Indian R&D efforts. So unscrupulous journos have a perpetual christmas season. From whichever direction they tilt, as long as they tilt at the Indian R&D, they get paid. The day India stops purchasing foreign arms, the 'Journos for sale 'R Us' tune will change to some other raga.

Since Ajai Shukla has already revealed his political preference, I wonder why he is cribbing and complaining so much about India's defence planning and policy. Right now it is the people of his 'camp' that control the levers of power. Why doesn't he just ask them to change the policy to his liking? Or better still, ask them to make him the Prime Minister's Advisor on Defence?

Looks like he is not getting any 'Bhav' there, so he is trolling on BR to increase his click counts.

Looks like some hefty lifafas are being passed around New Delhi.

BRF is a serious threat to lifafa defence journos. That's why they are trolling on and trashing BRF.

dear ajjai-shukla-san,

i use my real name so i score more points? i am kawamoto nephew of sakamoto son of hajimoto

i don't sit in cheap cyber cafe in noo yawk but expensive cyber cafe in tookyo

now

what is your point about drdo? all government run companies are inefficient and along with indian babu system and corrupt politicians they are doing their best.

your ranting in this forum is more like telling the alter boys about the vice of jesus christ - even if true, its not neessary

and about your claims of sitting with generals and brigadiers and sipping sake it is utter bullshit - you are most likely a lonely NRI working as a camel race jokey in dubai during the day time and ranting at night time - you really need to find a woman - or a geisha to be happy

there is no indian name called ajai, ask your parents. some brave rajputs use the name ajay but you won't understand the meaning

your real name most likely is lallu panwala or muhammad islam karachiwala (mo' in short)

sayonara

This has been noted for the last 12 mths. This so called consolidation is known as manufacturing the consent. This is a clear example for the general public to understand how the Indian media is under the control of foreign entities.

Focus, people, focus!

Ajai Shukla (real name) has his opinions. He has posted them. Nothing new. He wants to be heard and thinks he is totally right - but hey so does everyone else.

He could do them in a less inflammatory manner and not sound like a troll who is trying to get people to his blog by advertising on BR. The "needling" method of "discussion by controversy" is the method of trolls and unsuited for fora. More for one sided "Listen to me you stoopid gits" type of people who post on blogs or write for magazines where people can't talk back. He is definitely a newbie to this sort of two way discussion and an expert at rhetoric. But aren't all writers that way?

Each to his own. Using one's own name is not a qualification for being a person with a balanced or informed viewpoint. But he is a media man - used to being heard and saying things with sharp words. I like the words I write - I re-read them again and again and think "Wah Wah - that'll teach them good and proper" and Shukla ji (real name) is doing just that.

About LCA being a dud I know of a now dead person whose family opposed his career in the armed forces and chided him for :not studying" like all the scholars in the family. But the man went on, became well known in many ways and proved his family wrong.

Of course it is a great time to be critical of the LCA. By the time it does anything the blog will have had traffic and Shulka ji (real name) will be writing about something else. Claiming that you know about the future is called astrology.

The best part about this gentleman is the ease with which he writes recommendations that are so ho hum and well known, and disqualifies people because they are New Yawk based and do not use real names. Presumably he thinks that everyone in India uses this type of logic - but hey - it's a free country and there is no bar on thought -even if stupid.

Move on folks move on.

Go fight with Shukla ji (real name) or agree with him on his blogspot. He wants traffic right? And he wants it from here? Fine.

Oh yes - I don't get money for writing, and Shukla ji (real name) has not yet offered to declare his income sources. Does that disqualify him as compared to other forum members (false names) and living in New Yawk?

Using his logic - it probably does.

I am sure if someone took the effort, then the connection between the Arms-dealsers, Corrupt babus and Selfstyled Defence Jurnos would come out.

Isnt it too mush of a co-incidence to have a host of Jurnos trashing the indigenous efforts in media?This sort of drivel is at its peak when lobbying is on for lucrative contracts or when a decision to buy is imminent.

My finely tuned PAC-Kamra certified radar is unable to decipher this line.

What is he implying ?

While I sat thinking that since Slice Bread the greatest thing.. Ajai hu? Yes Ajai, the powerful, all knowing, all perceptive, rubs shoulders with greatest of great generals, knows el presidente Hu Jin personally, uber patriot. Yeah that is it. Ajai is the greatest. Hail Ajai, Heil Hitler .. oh no.. Hail Ajai. No folks, it does not matter whether there are umpteen know it alls on BR or whether my own Dad who was involved in defence ministry with HF-24, MiG 21, Jaguar, Mirage aircrafts and rubbed shoulders with Air Chiefs, Defence Babus, HAL GMs. Nah, you are kidding this is all inconsequential compared to Ajai the great. Hail Ajai. Oops. Slap. Slap. I reached for the paper (I realized too late it had Ajai’s writing on it) and flushed the toilet.

Thanks for being honest.

You want traffic for your blog - you have to work for it.

Accusing people of things gets you exactly that treatment and you don't like it do you?

You don't want debate. You want traffic. You want to be heard.

And of course - if you don't agree with what I have written I can always say that you are "LOCKING OUT ALTERNATIVE VIEWS". Funny that two of us thought of the same thing.

Sorry Ajai Shukla. You need to learn how to communicate on a forum like this. Being a "known name" does not qualify you. If you think you know it all the your blog is the best place for you. One sided. You holler. Everyone listens. You don't need BRF do you?

Go get a life boss. Get a life.

There is a general assumption about BR forum being a group of people with an agenda of some political party or think tank. Also there is allegation of group think which makes the discussion blind and not see the full picture.

Some new posters like current episode who may not know the how discussion start in online forums with trashing before meaningful things happen.

BRF posters don't get paid for their write-ups. Journalists do. It is clear which group is more likely to have a conflict of interest in their writing. And it shows.

I would archive this thread to show how a "known" journalist gets shook up when he tries to throw his weight around in an internet forum and gets his ego pricked.

His comments make interesting piskology and he is dead right about himself too in using the words "How one thinks governs what one is"

Shuklaji is a journo who says things in a one sided manner with no threat of needing to hear another viewpoint.

When exposed on a forum to another viewpoint that does not match his own, he says "Locking out other views"

But hey he too is locking out views of people on here

Interesting psychology here. But you experience and learn to cope with others only on a forum such as this. Not on a blog. Not on TV. And not from writing magazine articles.

Sorry Ajai ji.

Open your mind and you won't find as much stupidity here as you think. But you will have to swallow your ego first. Tough no?

i don't see that there is any coherence to agendas etc., however i do see a tendency for most posters to lean in a particular (jingoish) direction. that is pretty clear. so there is some element of group think - just look at the swathes of postings responding to shukla, most of which are emotional responses.

it is also true that most of us (myself included) have never served in uniform and our knowledge of military matters is completely academic. therefore by definition, most of us do not see the full picture.

what BRF can do is to bring together different view points from across the board, such that a balanced view emerges. shukla may be an outlier, but he's worth listening to nevertheless, as long as individually we can filter it with our own perceptions of reality

why the need for emotion?

Lalmohan,

Ajai Shukla had graced this forum with his presence and popmpous drivel earlier too. Thats why the rather unanimous, instantaneous and somewaht 'emotional' response.

Its not that he is something brand new and needs to be given a period of time to 'understand' his side.

P.S. What is better, a group-think emerging out of discussions amongst thousands of particpants, or a singleton-think arising in in a single cranium?

yes i know, i have read him here before. understanding doesnt mean agreeing, it just means understanding his logic - and then rationally disagreeing, if indeed it needs to be said