Bharat Rakshak

Dassault Falcon 7X
Kit Plane ??
Bell 407

Rakall, Sumeet - moving the SPJ discussion to the Radar thread ... it's getting little cluttered out here.

hello


what is the real reason behind thecrash? is it due the rear wheel shock absorber break up during the take off run as reported in deccan chronicle? or the careless closure of the canopy by the HAL CTP? or due to the tyre burst ?The canopy opens up side ways ,with a hinged kind of support. even ordinary cars have warning sytems if door is not closed properly.. how could the IJT guys missed it. The issue is sensitive as the ejection seats have to be operated in case of loss of control in mid air? F16 trainer has a different canopy opening system which opens up with a hydaulic support. If the door is not locked properly, what course of action is to be taken. put an interock and halt engine ignition ,before start up. but if the door opens up in midair during flight what course of action to be taken if the craft has not gone out of control. Any how the incident is an eye openeing freak accident. HAL guys have to study may be YAK130, L-159, HAWK sytems and should take corrective action. Had this happened after the a/c gone airborne , things would have been disastrous for the entire show.

what makes you think HAL has NOT studied the other trainers? Last I heard it was pilot error, and stories corroborate this info. Plus, the tyre burst for sure was a consequece of the incident and not a cause. Before blaming HAL lets wait for the results to come, shall we?

what makes you think HAL has NOT studied the other trainers? Last I heard it was pilot error, and stories corroborate this info. Plus, the tyre burst for sure was a consequece of the incident and not a cause. Before blaming HAL lets wait for the results to come, shall we?

aditya garu - i think the bottom line in all accident investgation is not to blame anyone or any entity, i.e. neither the pilot, nor HAL until the investigation is complete.

That is Enstrom 280FX.

Raymond...please email me at koshyr AT hotmail DOT com

Thales in India 2007

Basic info on the Rolta - Thales JV and their displays in AI 07.

[quote]The Thales Joint Venture with ROLTA: Thales Rolta Limited in the field of C4ISR, defence and homeland security.
Rolta has announced in a Press Release on August 17th, 2006, its Joint Venture with Thales. This JV will leverage the broad spectrum of cutting-edge technologies, systems and solutions from Thales, and Rolta's leadership position in the Indian market. To be owned 51% by Rolta and 49% by Thales, the JV will take advantage of technology transfer from Thales for developing state-of-the-art Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance (C4ISTAR) information systems, for domestic and international markets. Rolta and Thales have entered into an agreement, and the JV will be incorporated very soon.
Mr. Bruno Rambaud, Directeur Général (Senior Vice President), Thales Land & Joint Systems Division, stated, "Increasing Thales footprint internationally depends on the success of strategic business alliances like the one we have formed with Rolta. The creation of this joint venture will be a significant milestone in our development within the Indian Defence and Homeland security markets. This win-win partnership will also leverage the resources and expertise of both companies to serve the global operations of Thales." Mr. K.K. Singh, Chairman and Managing Director, Rolta India Ltd., commented, “We are extremely pleased to be partnering with Thales to form this Joint Venture. This is a major event in the history of our company and will play an important role in our growth. Guided by a set of common values, this JV will share best practices through transfer of technology and bring in state-of-the-art products into our country, enabling us to serve the nation better and address emerging opportunities worldwideâ€

Mailed you.

Have a stupid question?

It's reported that the DARIN-II upgrade is done in 3 phases viz.
Phase 1: Nav Integration
Phase 2: A/G weapons, Int. of IFF, DVRS, RWR and LRMTS
Phase 3: Int. Auto Pilot, LDP, SPJ, CMDS

The stupid question is, at what phase are we in?
If 17 twin-seaters were completed in 04-05, then I'd assume they've already achieved all 3 phases.
Next I guess, is to get the 2032s integrated on the IMs.

I have it on good authority (i.e., from the horse's mouth) that FOC trials for A/G weapons was being conducted in January.

IM's have already got the 2032.

IOC with all weapons by Sept 2005 and FOC of Jaguar-IB on Sept 2006.

Could the crash last month in which the jaguar exploded, killing the pilot part of this test?

Not really, if it had the newspapers would be full of articles and leaks blaming HAL, DRDO for being traitors etc.

rakall,

Thanks for all the great information you are posting, since AeroIndia show is over I am curious where are you getting your information from? Are you based in Bangaluru?

Wow ... if they have integrated INS/GPS, IFF, RWR, SPJ, CMDS , Auto Pilot, LDP, LRMTS and DVRS, that's a huge huge accomplishment - guess all that chest thumping (reported by Rakall et all) is pretty well justified.
If only they could squeeze-in a digital terrain following (a la Antilope-5) system, would've made this a super-lethal beast.

Yes.. i am in Blr.

I aksed around a lot during 4days of AI.. and while i was at it, made a few contacts so that when required i can have a friendly chat..

Here is a lot of detail on the Jags and a info on the DarinII upgrade.. scanned from HAL literature

http://rapidshare.com/files/18365728/Ja ... e.pdf.html

Rakall, I dont know much about Darin II, but thats a cool picture of the Upgraded MiG27 cockpit - it also reveals the new Upgraded Mig Numbering .

That MiG-27ML was always TS-640. I wonder if they PS'ed it into TU? The nose art is clearly PS'ed because its missing the sun in the center.

No PS. All upgraded MiG27s are now TU instead of TS. Note the paint on the floor of the cockpit. The picture I was talking about had TU660 (now lost)

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2007/02/ne ... ary-8.html

Got the above via email - Shiv aroor's blog - his info points out Baldy (i heard this from other sources as well)

The interesting thing is that the open canopy slipped past both pilot and ground marshalls. Unfortunate and silly incident.

Well Shiv Aroor has suddenly become an accurate truth-teller..

But I want to point out something else. He says:



Hey how convenient it is for any manufacturer to blame the pilot for a crash. After all that is what used to be done for a whole lot of the IAFs crashes.

And in Aero India 2007 we get:

ALH crashes "Oh it was pilot error"
IJT crashes "Oh it was pilot error"

Something's got to be fishy here. Even if something is not fishy - no "buyer" in his right senses would accept the pilot error explanation so easily. If you buy an aircraft and it crashes - you may not live to defend yourself and say why it was not your fault.

Of course - with such reports having appeared since the moment the crash was seen in public - pressure will have to rise on HAL to accept or deny them. Unfortunately for Baldev and fortunately for HAL - trial by media means that unless the "forgot to lock canopy" story is denied - it will be taken as the truth.

I would have thought that technology from 1950 - ie a light that stays on if the door is not closed should have been there in the 21st century IJT. How come the pilot is being blamed?

What is his source for the Chilean deal being lost because of a ALH crash

ROTFL look at this exchange of comments on another of his posts

at the bottom of

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2007/02/no ... hikki.html


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Ajai said...
Nicely organised blog, shiv. If you don't mind me recommending an improvement, I would suggest that you remove the Bharat Rakshak link from your website. You write on serious issues facing defence planning, why link your blog with a crappy boyz with toyz website like Bharat Rakshak?
cheers!

11:33 AM
Shiv Aroor said...
hi ajai, no i think i'm going to let it stay there!

2:24 PM

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There is hope for Shiv Aroor yet.. Ajai BWT Shukla OTOH is beyond all help. May he RIP

Shuklaji belongs to the genre of "famous people" who has to comment adversely on the personal characteristics of anyone who disagrees with him if his own flawed logic is being questioned.

To Shukla this may seem like a bright idea - but like thousands of philosophers, researchers and scientists have discovered over centuries - if you stop questioning yourself and the veracity of what you say in favor of saying nasty things about others - the truth will soon come and squeeze Ganga-jal from your balls leaving tinder dry powder that is ready to go up in smoke.

To each his own...

Height of hypocrisy.. cant believe the same Shukla found it appropriate for himself to post text of his blog here in BR and invite BRfites for a discussion..

Shame on Shukla!!

And who was the one who shamelessly advertised his blog on the "crappy boyz with toyz" website?

Yawn.... A 340 crashes in full view of public and cameras during its "unfurling flight" and still airlines bought it in droves.. And of course airplanes had engines right from the day they first flew and basic laws of physics meant that airplanes however sophsiticated they are fly only within a certain envelope.. Dayumm.. couldnt airbus have lights that stay on or have a Kate like voice croon "danger " "danger" ? Sure.. they did but still a very experienced test pilot crashed the plane in full view.

ANd in Bangalore when one of the first A320s to enter service in the world crashed while it still smelt of fresh paint, the evil Airbus did a "foreign conspiracy" theory and blamed the poor Indian Airlines pilot.. what to do saar! .. Right since probably Wright bros, pilots had to make sure that the descent rate was such that you could make it to the run way or you crash short of it.. Didnt the TFTA IT/VITY computer controlled FBW A320 have anything at all to have Kate croon "Danger Danger" ,"Pull Up" "Pull Up".. still that poor guy crashed.. Of course Airbus' fault onlee and no one should buy A320.. but.. but.. A320 smashed all records in sales and every one is lining up to buy more.. An eevill conspiracy onlee..

Airus is to blame of course.. Ask the dead pilots of the A320 and A340 that crashed. They never made any error saar.. How can they defend themselves.. I tell you them damned Airbus manufacturers.. It is the planes onlee..

And of course, cars have a seat belt sign on the dashboard that stays on red until you put seatbelts on.. I am willing to bet Rs 100, that the nitwit who wrote this , never ever looks at that and drives around without his seat belt in the city he lives in , in India.. Sure, it is the car manufacturer's fault if he gets killed in a car accident because he wasnt wearing the seat belt..So in the 21st century why are you blaming poor car drivers who get killed because they dont wear seatbelts.. It is a conspiracy really. Everything is fishy onlee.. And people line up in the millions to buy cars!!..

And now Sirjee.. There is a technology from the 1950s called a light bulb that stays on in the aircraft if you dont lock the canopy and probably makes a peee.....peee.. noise..But like the car driver with seat belt, the plane driver ignores it and crashes the plane.. Now it is 21st century and so the airplane manufacturer is to blame saar.. It is a conspiracy theory onlee.. and they are blaming the poor pilot.

Look at how this ba****d vishal thapar (extends to Shukla, Shit Aroor too) puts a spin on Mig21 on CNN-IBN.The interview program program is titled "flawed wings" & "crashing compulsion" -- while this was the Mig21's first crash in an year..

ACM Tyagi fairly defends the Mig21 when asked about design deficiencies saying "all aircraft have design deficiencies" which this Mo****Fu puts a spin on saying "Airchief accpets that there are design deficiencies in Mig21"..

http://rapidshare.com/files/18973415/AC ... 1.wmv.html

ACM goes on to defend saying "was it a right decision to buy them at that time? Come on we won a war with them".. "calling them flying coffins is a great national disservice... etc etc but Thapar continues to put his own spin.. Just notice the differences in the positive tone of ACM tyagi & the critical and scandalous tone of Thapar

Shiv did you just come up with masterpiece or are quoting someone else. never heard one like this! I got to remember to use this is at work (of course with your permission).

Very true.. My very secret sources in CIA have show me conclusive proof that the ALH crash at AI07 was due to a "serious and unrectifiable design deficiency"..

All the 20 Dhruv's in Army Aviation will crash anytime bcoz they also have muhurat deficiency -- they have been delivered during Rahukaal.. therefore the three service chief's held a secret meeting in the "Raju miltry hotel dhabha" on NH7 two weeks ago and made a secret pact to cancel the order for the projected 300+ Dhruv's that they intend to take delivery of..

Please keep this post secret.. dont let hawks like Aroor read this or the truth will be known to the whole world..

What are we saying here ? That HAL sucks? Or that the ALH or the IJT sucks?

Don't know what anyone else is saying.

All that I want to say is stop speculating about the cause of the accident. No amount of speculation is going to help anyone - although speculation could be harmful to someone or the other.

It's Hobson's choice actually.

If speculation blames the pilot - it indirectly "absolves" the manufacturer. I would have thought that this should silence the worries about export expressed by the likes of Shiv Aroor.

Speculating on a defect in the aircraft by the media may take pressure off the pilot, but the media could needlessly be damaging the reputation of an aircraft that might not be at fault.

Having interacted with accident investigation people on and off in the past I find that both flyers and technical people have a healthy skepticism about quickfix explanations. It could turn out that a minor defect was aggravated/revealed by a totally unexpected pilot reaction in an emergency, or it could be that - or an error on the part of the pilot can reveal a design fault that needs rectification merely because humans are prone to make errors.

Blaming the pilot, even if he had "forgotten to latch the hatch" is wrong before the conclusion of the investigation because I can think of several ways in which the pilot alone may not be totally to blame for what actually happened despite making a first error. I am asking thatspeculation on the matter be set to rest.

What people do is their business. I am merely requesting what I think is right.

And have some perspective too. Combat flying (or flying a combat aircraft) is inherently risky.

These things will happen. Servicemen know this well. Investigate and improve. Don't gloat on the lack of crashes, or blame all and sundry when one does happen.

Does not mean I am suggesting you seal your lips (see Shiv's comment against speculating). Comment only after facts are known. If it is found to be HAL's fault, they will attend a few music concerts. If its the pilot, they will need a new hobby.

In the mean time, respect the privacy/dignity of an individual that has test-flown half-capable aircraft and the manufacturer that is trying to fly with strong tail wind trying to develop one.

Seems like a jingo's brain current set off some +ve currents in his system.

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/ma ... temId=4230

Rakall: What is your take on who will face the axe? the ground-crew or aircrew?

In the old days, parts salvaged from aircrafts involved in accident are not used again.

Don't know what is the process to re-certify a part salvaged from IJT before it can be certified airworthy. Anyone who can shed a light?