DEFEXPO 2010

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Singha
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Singha »

105mm it is claimed doesnt lag far behind 155mm in destructive power albeit range is
lower. I dont think any army has moved totally to 155mm yet, people still retain light guns.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by soumik »

Rahul M wrote:nirbhay.
I alluded to nirbhay he said he was not allowed to talk
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by manish »

Singha wrote:105mm it is claimed doesnt lag far behind 155mm in destructive power albeit range is
lower. I dont think any army has moved totally to 155mm yet, people still retain light guns.
Not to mention the cost angle!

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole OFB 105mm SPG costs less than the T6 on Bhim. The plant and eqpt needed to mfr the LFG and the BMP II have been around forever and probably have depreciated to an extent where the costs are negligible except for the materials/variable costs. Maintenance infra and logistics chain for both have been in place and in use for decades. And factor in the speed of induction - we do need SP arty, in numbers and NOW.

I do understand that Bhim and OFB 105mm are not comparable, but I am sure there are enough theaters of war where the OFB machine would actually turn out to be useful enough. Add to this the fact that this would be easily air transportable even with the current transport assets in the IAF unlike Bhim.

Perhaps there are places high in the mountains like Leh where they may need SPG arty that is air transportable and targets are <20km? Gurulog, can some more light be thrown on these? What were the typical engagement ranges in Kargil, anyone has any ideas?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by soumik »

Did any of you see this?
Image

there's now a wheeled version of the PZH 2000, and it's on offer to India :mrgreen: The guy at Rheinmetall told me that.It uses the same chassis as the Denel G6 though.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by rohitvats »

manish wrote:...<SNIP>....... And factor in the speed of induction - we do need SP arty, in numbers and NOW..............I do understand that Bhim and OFB 105mm are not comparable, but I am sure there are enough theaters of war where the OFB machine would actually turn out to be useful enough. Add to this the fact that this would be easily air transportable even with the current transport assets in the IAF unlike Bhim.............Perhaps there are places high in the mountains like Leh where they may need SPG arty that is air transportable and targets are <20km? Gurulog, can some more light be thrown on these? What were the typical engagement ranges in Kargil, anyone has any ideas.Thanks in advance.
Gentlemen, before we jump on SP 105mm system, lets first look at the caliber itself and the role it plays in the IA.

--An arty bde in an infantry division generally has 3*Field Regiments.These are equipped with the 18*105mm IFG/LFG each.

--These are expected to provide "initmate fire support" - indirect and direct- to the division troops which is beyond the capability of the 120mm mortars. range - 17kms. A bit of history: these are called field guns because these guns in earlier times could march with Field Armies (due to their low weight) and provide the critical fire support. Also, the corresponding nomenclature of the arty regiments which man these.

--As per a series of exchages with Sanjay M many moons ago on BRF, IA had imported a number of 130mm M-46 Medium guns from Russia and had used the same to convert many of the Field Regiments from 105mm to 130mm caliber. This was an interim measure given the logjam in our arty acquisition program. We again see emphasis on higher caliber and longer range.

--Infantry Division in plains will benefit greatly from 155mm/52cal system as it will give them the range, explosive firepower and volume to deal with enemy in depth. There is no alternative to a 155mm shell.

--Another point: What benefit does a 105mm SP Arty system gives? The formations with greatest requirement of SP Arty systems like your Armored Divisions/RAPIDS or the proposed IBG will require 155/52 Cal weapon.

--The employment of 105mm caliber in western armies like the US and UK is in their Light/Airborne forces and Paratroopers respectively. The Stryker based 105mm SP convept did not go beyond the TD/Prototype stage. Stryker Brigade Combat Teams are supported by 155mm towed arty.

--An SP 105mm Arty piece may be useful with Rapid Reaction/Expeditionary forces. But even here, I do not know how difficult will it be to mate the 155mm/39 Cal M777 to something like BMP/Stryker.

--As for areas like Ladakh, unless there is gross difficulty in moving a heavy system like towed/wheeled 155mm piece and it is a must to have the mobility offered by this kind of system, I do not see any use.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by wig »

i was under the impression that the 155 mm howitzer performed well during the Kargil (1999) show.
maybe the bigger caliber howitzers lob shell better across heights.
but i am no expert
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by jamwal »

Some pictures uploaded at BR gallery:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Misc/jamwal/
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Nalla Baalu »

Do we see a pattern here? Reminds me of umarked AAD TEL scale model - complete with AAD missile - that was displayed in DefExpo an year or two before first AAD test from ITR. Surely, meant to be an 'ishara' to the 'samajdhars' around (sorry baaki lurkers, you do not qualify).

Per a recent post on Aroor's blog, SA to RM said that ASL will have 'something to show soon'. Hopefully, something more than a scale model of the TEL.
soumik wrote:
Rahul M wrote:nirbhay.
I alluded to nirbhay he said he was not allowed to talk
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by a_kumar »

Cybaru wrote:One of these large house like tata or mahindra should just buy Denel out and out and move a lot of stuff to India.
Aapke muh main ghee shakkar!!!
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Bheem »

soumik wrote:
Kakarat wrote:Can anyone tell me what this is
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/S ... MG2863.JPG

That is a vertical missile launch system from L&T, i saw it at the L&t stand however the guy there told me he was not allowed to talk about which missile it would use.
I also thought that the only reasonable use is for Nirbhay. If somebody can calcuate the dimensions of the launcher, I think we will get to know what Nirbhay size is. Having said this, the missiles in the launcher look like "Shaurya". Also the a portion of the launcher has wheels while the balance is resting on the ground. A odd look and very long for transportation in a single piece.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by jamwal »

Nalla Baalu
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Nalla Baalu »

In this scan, is the last image on right, of Nishant with tri-cycle landing gear? Is this first image in public domain showing the CTOL version in flight?

Jamwal ji, if the image is a scan from a brochure, can you rescan it as/when you find time? Thanks in advance!
jamwal wrote:Some more pictures:

...

DRDO's Remotely Operated Vehicles

(poor quality)...
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Singha »

the boxy control part of Nirbhay most of it has to be on a separate vehicle.
its too long to be just hitched to a semi truck.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Rampy »

In Military Photo.net I saw a picture of INSAS bull up model. Did anyone see that in Defexpo 2010

Any news about it, any pics !!
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Srivastav »

rampy saar, you have a link for it....i can find it there ?
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Gaur »

Rampy wrote:In Military Photo.net I saw a picture of INSAS bull up model. Did anyone see that in Defexpo 2010

Any news about it, any pics !!
I have not seen bullup Insas photo at this defence expo but I have certainly seen one at some earlier def expo. IIRC, it was not well recieved by IA.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by bodhi »

Srivastav wrote:rampy saar, you have a link for it....i can find it there ?
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... Delhi-pics

See the past pic on page 1 of this thread.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by jamwal »

Nalla Baalu

In the brouchre it looked like a tri-cycle kind of landing gear only. I don't have a scanner, only a camera. I'll try to upload a clearer picture by tomorrow. I had no idea about this version of Nishant. Thanks for pointing it out
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Kersi D »

Rampy wrote:In Military Photo.net I saw a picture of INSAS bull up model. Did anyone see that in Defexpo 2010

Any news about it, any pics !!
The bull pup version of INSAS has ben abandoned. AMOGH is the carbine version

K
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Kersi D »

soumik wrote:Did any of you see this?
Image

there's now a wheeled version of the PZH 2000, and it's on offer to India :mrgreen: The guy at Rheinmetall told me that.It uses the same chassis as the Denel G6 though.
Me thinks these gun is ttttooooo heavy for Indian conditions. The gentleman at the stall said that the tracked version weighs 55 - 60 MT and the gun veriosn would be 45+ MT.

What is the weight of Bhim / Bheem ?

K
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Rahul M »

Nalla Baalu wrote:In this scan, is the last image on right, of Nishant with tri-cycle landing gear? Is this first image in public domain showing the CTOL version in flight?
good catch !
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by krishnan »

Kersi D wrote:What is the weight of Bhim / Bheem ?

K
around 55 T
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Philip »

I have a "bone to pick" with L&T,in fact a bone as big as a dinosaurs"!

The L&T display with a photomural of the "Arihant" is a huge fib.It is NOT a pic of the Arihant but a pic of a RN Trafalgar attack SSN.If it is the Arihant-which I'm convinced it is not,then the ATV is an absolute copy of that sub.I cannot understand why L&T should "fib" at an international event like this and if I'm not mistaken,the same was shown at another international expo.We do understand the secrecy with which the IN/DRDO has about the actual details of the ATV being publicly displayed,but there are several pics of the offical opening which could've been used instead and there are pics of the sub assembly centre with pics of the hull sections in a defence mag..

The key similarities are easily visible.The "blister" on the bow at waterline which may be the upward echo-sounder/underwater telephone or a sonar,the small sonar that looks like a "thumb" before the sail (intercept array?),the shape and size of the sail-identical to the Trafagar class,the easily recognisable silhouette of a Pilkington periscope,the small "hump" abaft the sail (where on the Arihant the 4 large missile silos would be located),which is actually the towed array sonar which is reeled out,retrofitted to most of the class and the size and shape of the vertical fin.In fact the size and shape of the sail to is identical with the sonar protuberances at exactly the same positions on a Trafalgar.

The bow sonar/UW tel. "blister" is clearly seen in this pic of HMS Tireles.Compare this with the L&T pic.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operations- ... eIndex/46/

The conclusion is thus,that the pic is none other than that of an RN Trafalgar SSN and not the Arihant!

Mr.Naik,we are extremely proud of L&T's achievements,but surely you could do better than to fudge a pic.,passing it off as an L&T product! I'm sure that Marconi/Vickers/BAe,makers of the Trafalgar are quite amused.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by aditp »

^^^ Pray dont pick up a dinosaur bone. You would be crushed by the weight :mrgreen:

L&T cannot use the Arihant's pic without MoD clearance. I'm sure, Marconi/Vickers/BAe wont mind. Gives them free advertisement!
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Philip »

..there were teeny-weeny itsy-bitsy cute lookin' baby dinos too!

How would Merc like it if the latest Beemer or Audi ad pictured a Merc instead,
or the DRDO had a pic of a Leopard tank saying that it was Arjun-2?
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Kersi D »

Philip wrote:.
How would Merc like it if the latest Beemer or Audi ad pictured a Merc instead ?
P
Merc would be too happy to get free publicity. But DRDO/MOD/IN would be very very unhappy if L&T were to publish a pic of the real INS Arihant.

K
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by jamwal »

Nalla Baalu wrote:In this scan, is the last image on right, of Nishant with tri-cycle landing gear? Is this first image in public domain showing the CTOL version in flight?

Jamwal ji, if the image is a scan from a brochure, can you rescan it as/when you find time? Thanks in advance!
jamwal wrote:Some more pictures:

...

DRDO's Remotely Operated Vehicles

(poor quality)...
Image you asked for here.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/S ... MG2942.JPG
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by ankit-s »

a_kumar wrote:
Cybaru wrote:One of these large house like tata or mahindra should just buy Denel out and out and move a lot of stuff to India.
Aapke muh main ghee shakkar!!!

Denel is 100 pcnt state owned. South African Gov is the sole shareholder of this important SA defense company which is a key supplier (70%) to the South African National Defence Force.

What would be the likelihood of it being sold to foreigners?

Just as we think HAL would ever be sold to south Africa or other overseas buyers!

Just a thought......
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Kersi D »

ankit-s wrote:
a_kumar wrote:One of these large house like tata or mahindra should just buy Denel out and out and move a lot of stuff to India.
Aapke muh main ghee shakkar!!!

Just as we think HAL would ever be sold to south Africa or other overseas buyers!

Just a thought......
It would be a tragedy, especially for the employees.

THEY WILL HAVE TO ACTUALLY WORK TO GET THEIR SALARY !!!

TERRIBLE TERRIBLE

Kalyug aa gaya hai !!

And no more free tickets to Aero India with wife, children (born and unborn), in-laws, out-laws etc.

K

On second thought, AERO INDIA may becoem a little better, We will not see whole families having a picnic in an international air show
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Arunkumar »

Kersi D wrote:
And no more free tickets to Aero India with wife, children (born and unborn), in-laws, out-laws etc.

K

On second thought, AERO INDIA may becoem a little better, We will not see whole families having a picnic in an international air show
IIRC there was a photo of Aero-india 09 wherein families were sitting under a su-30 , using it as a sunshade. Dont recollect who clicked it.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Nalla Baalu »

Appreciate your efforts. Thanks!
jamwal wrote:Image you asked for here.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/S ... MG2942.JPG
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Kersi D »

Arunkumar wrote:
Kersi D wrote:
And no more free tickets to Aero India with wife, children (born and unborn), in-laws, out-laws etc.

K

On second thought, AERO INDIA may becoem a little better, We will not see whole families having a picnic in an international air show
IIRC there was a photo of Aero-india 09 wherein families were sitting under a su-30 , using it as a sunshade. Dont recollect who clicked it.
I have also clicked such pics with families having breakfast lunch and high tea.

SIC SIC SIC
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by shiv »

Russian airshows and airshows in Britain such as the one held at Mildenhall are actually family outings and are meant to encourage an interest in aviation and the aviation industry.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Philip »

The first air shows were the best.One could walk under the belly of a Flanker,jumped into any cockpit one wanted to,mingled with the pliots and crew.In fact,at the very first,the two Russian attack helos,now entering service, the Alligator and another from Kamov/Mil were revealed for the frist time.Though the family crowds were there,they were less than those these days.I guess that an enhanced fee for serious enthusiasts/business visitors/MOD & service personnel for the fist 3 days to screen out "day trippers" is what should happen,with the last two days for the hordes of spectators.Even this fee should not be that cheap that zillions of gawking tourists can overwhelm.The separation of those just wanting to see the flying displays from those wanting to see the pavilions was a good idea too.If much improved facilties are given to this lot,it will make a difference.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by shiv »

Philip its the Farnborough group that has the contract to run the Aero India shows. No wonder we have Chinese stalls selling Rs 600 T-shirts outside the halls :shock:
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Shameek »

I have a PDF of an Indian Express special report on the DEF-Expo with a number of articles. However I do not know if it is any copyright infringement to post it here. Mods please advise.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Rahul M »

upload it somewhere like ifile.it.
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Shameek »

a_kumar
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by a_kumar »

ankit-s wrote:Denel is 100 pcnt state owned. South African Gov is the sole shareholder of this important SA defense company which is a key supplier (70%) to the South African National Defence Force.

What would be the likelihood of it being sold to foreigners?

Just as we think HAL would ever be sold to south Africa or other overseas buyers!

Just a thought......
If you think HAL is the benchmark for how countries should or will handle their defense industry, then think again.

Keep an open mind and remember that
- one doesn't have to wait for precedence to be set (even though there are in this case) or
- one doesn't have to apply the same rules at home and away :twisted: (there is precedence for this, look at the "west")!!

Here are some pointers for case studies if you are interested, "British Aerospace" and "DCNS".
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Re: DEFEXPO 2010

Post by Rahul M »

Shameek wrote:Here is the link:

DEFEXPO Special Report by Indian Express
thanks.
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