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PostPosted: 03 Jul 2004 09:27 
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BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 26 Sep 1999 11:31
Posts: 19
Location: Bangalore
Having been at BR for around 6 years, I should be a BR veteran. Took awhile to muster up my courage, become a member and post my own thoughts. And so far, I have found time only for reading the hazaar posts everyday. But hey, nothing comes close.
May BR live for the next hundred years!!


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PostPosted: 03 Jul 2004 09:32 
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BRFite

Joined: 04 Mar 2002 12:31
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally posted by Calvin:
Folks: BR has been as rewarding to post as to contribute to. There are a couple of things we might wish to ponder as we look to the future:

1. BRM - Print Version: The world is going electronic, perhaps we don't need a print version. Members can always print out the issue and hand it to those folks stuck in the 20th century.
Boss, you have no idea how still backward we are - not 20th century but probably even more in terms of modernity of approach. If you think email reduces paperwork, etc., then you are in for a rude shock. My friend still runs a batch job that crawls over his inbox and prints every piece of email - which he takes home to process in the evening. Of course, he ends up throwing away 95% of it since they are all printouts of penis-enlargement and age-reversing and **** emails.

Last but not the least - paper is bio-degradable but it will still stay archived and stacked and labelled in a lot of universities, "think tanks", etc. for years and years. Email and electronic articles either get deleted or just plain ignored. Electronic stuff is highly bio-degradable.
Quote:
Originally posted by ramana:
Some members have been wishing happy birthday implying BR were a living breathing entity. I feel that is some ways off in the future.
Any excuse to get away from the responsibility of sharing the cake, eh? :D


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PostPosted: 03 Jul 2004 09:50 
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Webmaster BR

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 2914
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Quote:
Originally posted by Amarnath.G:
And then there is Manku Thimmas site on LCA, would be nice to have a lot more there, but imagine 'everything' that can be put about on LCA will
Mankus webpages is an excellent example of a 'specialist' theme -though i would also like to see more on those pages that others do not have time to archive - say a news archive of all the reports concerning the LCA?

I know a couple of websites that i tried to help out. Pawan Kaul had a philately section long time back which i tried to send stuff to, ditto with Nakul on the Samar Shah site, but now both are not being updated as the webbies have more imp things to do ...

Quote:
Imagine a packee posing as an Indian fan wanting to get BRF logo - and then going on to convert that website into something like dalitstan.org - what are you going to do? Do you have the time, energy and money to fight this 2 paisa jehadi living in Slumabad?
Simple, we pull the plug on the BR Logo - if we dont give permission, he cant do anything on it. we can revoke the permission and remove the link from our website. and if its on members.br.com..then its even easier to pull the plug.

and if a jihadi is spending time to do a site like manku thimmas - then all the more power to us for getting work done thru him :D


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PostPosted: 03 Jul 2004 09:58 
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Webmaster BR

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 2914
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Quote:
Originally posted by Calvin:
1. BRM - Print Version: The world is going electronic, perhaps we don't need a print version. Members can always print out the issue and hand it to those folks stuck in the 20th century.
Agree with ashutosh on this. Hey printers are not in every household in india. and you can never carry your desktop to the loo. its nice to have india today or the news paper lying around (for reading purposes only!!)


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PostPosted: 03 Jul 2004 19:40 
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BRFite

Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Posts: 1747
I was always an aerospace and military freak, but my GK about the Indian forces was very limited.

My knowledge of wars and military was restricted to the set of world book encyclopedia that I so religiously read as a kid. Once the Internet arrived I explored my interests a lot more, starting late 1999.

My interest in RLVs and X-Prize led me to start a geocities website, http://www.geocities.com/spacetransport/ to which later added pages on the LCA, MCA and AVATAR. I can say that these pages were sort of the best on the net at a time. I no longer have the time to maintain that website.

When I created the LCA page, the only solid article available on the net was Hormuz Mama's "LCA Update" available on BR. That was probably the first time I visited the website.

Later when 9/11 and esp Parakram came I really adopted BRF as a part of my life.

PS: I recently noticed that I have completed 1000 posts on the Forum. I am really proud and happy to have survived till now and made so many posts! :)


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PostPosted: 03 Jul 2004 22:17 
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BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 21
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Having been at BR for around 6 years, I should be a BR veteran. Took awhile to muster up my courage, become a member and post my own thoughts. And so far, I have found time only for reading the hazaar posts everyday. But hey, nothing comes close.
May BR live for the next hundred years!!


Welcome back Prof Raghu,

Where have you been?

Regards.

Pathma


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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2004 08:55 
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Forum Moderator

Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Posts: 15126
Location: Chennai
Happy anniversary, BR.

Keep up the good work.


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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2004 10:16 
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BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 09 Mar 2004 12:31
Posts: 7
Location: Toronto, CANADA
It was February 1998, when I was doing searches on India's space programme. The search led me quickly into Bharat-Rakshak,and from then onwards, I have never really logged out! The other NARCD( North American Raised Confused Desi) Robert Choudary( a.k.a Rocko -what became of him?)also chanced on BR the same way. I like what someone recently said on BR, that this site is a gathering for those who are upbeat about India.


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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2004 15:58 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 23204
Location: Embarrassed by fresh-off-the-boat Indians
Quote:
Originally posted by Jagan:
[QB
BR has pretty much killed the 'Individual / Personal Website' in the Indian Context to a large extent. The only new websites that are coming up are official govt ones. Not too many individuals are brinnging out specialist websites or even general websites. In most cases all indiv websites have just images and then taken from BR.
[/QB]
Jagan - that is an interesting observation. BR is serving like a HU-UUGE vacuum pump for pictures and info and people don't seem to want to put up the same stuff.

That gives me ideas. Websites - little ones and easy to maintain ones really need to come up on "niche topics" Uncle's/daddy's photo album from his postings in way out areas, people and places connected with defence forces history. No doubt BR would be a "sction pump" for these as well and pick up photos and facts - but it could do the site a favor and have a link to the original.

I don't think people lack imagination - but I do think lots of people lack the motivation to put up a small site.

Personally I would love to put up yet another site - but dedicated to my current favorite topic - Pakistan. I note at least a couple of messages in this thread that say that people were hesitant to post. A lot of people actually write a lot of sense - including the "hesitant postors". If you ask me personally _ I would ask postors to save any of their own posts they consider as "sensible and informative" and blindly put them up on a website for the world to see, embellished appropriately with random images.

A blog is a alighly more modest and apologetic way of doing the same thing I suppose.


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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2004 16:49 
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BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 11 Jan 1999 12:31
Posts: 91
Location: pittsburgh,pa, usa
Many happy returns of the day. Tum jeeyo Hazaron saal aur saal ke din ho pachaas hazaar.

Congratulations. :)


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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2004 18:14 
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BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 02 May 2004 11:31
Posts: 1
Location: India
<br>I wish BR All the Best and hope it would continue to provide information and inspiration (belive me, it does give) to those who understand in and out of the sector and also to mortals like me who has little knowledge about the technicalities but have deep rooted respect for the Uniform and abiding interest in matters relating to it. Thank you BR for being there. <br>


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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2004 18:58 
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BRFite

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 631
Its probably appropriate to list the top-10 most prolific members:

Rudra Singha ... 15905
Shiv ... ........... 12484
Narayanan .. ... 11852
JRJ Rao ... ...... 11114
Muddur ... .. .. 7756

Ramana .. ... .. 7626
John Umrao ... .. 7526 (does not include other avatars)
Calvin ... ... .. 6726
acharya .. ... .. 6694
Div ...... ... .. 6026


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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2004 19:04 
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BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 16 Feb 2003 12:31
Posts: 4
Location: Pune
Congrats to all who make it happen and those who make such incisive and educative comments. I have learnt tremendously since I first started surfing through BR in 1997 and have never left, making me a card carrying jingo.
I infact got the address for the prime ministers relief fund etc details in 1998 for Kargil and was able to browbeat some friends and colleagues to make a contribution.
Was able to convert a lot of take it easy guys into arm chair jingos at least if not downright action takers like a colleague (from Abu-dhabi) who actually wrote to the forces to have him enlisted during Kargil. The forces did reply and acknowledge the spirit of your everyday Indian to him.
Most importantly again Jai Hind and Vande Mataram!


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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2004 21:27 
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BRFite

Joined: 16 Aug 1999 11:31
Posts: 328
Damn, I managed to sneak into the top-10.


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2004 00:10 
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BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 02 Jul 2003 11:31
Posts: 63
Bharat-Rakshak likes to pride itself in portraying India in good light that is also remains objective and not critical of other nations. In this respect, I would maybe like to see this diversity among the moderators (if you plan to create more positions).


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2004 01:50 
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BRFite

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 631
What diversity are you referring to to? Or lack of diversity?


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2004 02:14 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Posts: 2326
Congratulations to all members, administrators, and webmasters!

I've been on the BRF since Oct 2003; mostly reading and absorbing your wonderfully detailed discussions. It's been an honor to contribute articles to the BRM.

Great going!


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2004 02:29 
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BRFite

Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31
Posts: 443
Quote:
What diversity are you referring to to? Or lack of diversity?
Sohumji:

Evidently, u did not get to see the gallery of photos of the Bradmins. Looked like a set of Hollywood/ Bollywood stars. In fact, like the cast from "Men in Black", if u know what I mean... :p


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2004 06:36 
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BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 27 Oct 2003 12:31
Posts: 30
My first visit to BR was in early 1999 when I was putting together a site named "Fighter Planes of the World". I wanted to email RK to help me with some information. I didnt do that but instead browsed the site to its bone. Interestingly, I found out that there exists a discussion forum a good 2 years later. That was so stupid of me. Lurked around for a few years until becoming a member some time back.

:)


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2004 12:05 
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Webmaster BR

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 2914
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Quote:
Originally posted by narayanan:
[b]
Quote:
What diversity are you referring to to? Or lack of diversity?
Sohumji:

Evidently, u did not get to see the gallery of photos of the Bradmins. Looked like a set of Hollywood/ Bollywood stars. In fact, like the cast from "Men in Black", if u know what I mean... :p , TFTA / Non TFTA , Fair skinned / not so fair skinned, with hair on top/ without hair on top etc , married / unmarried , RIs/NRIs etc...


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2004 21:08 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 11092
Location: India
"A journey of seven + years began with a single post...".The great achievement of BR to me,has been that it has remained fresh all these years,with old and new members keeping the cut and thrust of debate alive on the forum,as global events have unfolded.The future for BR depends upon its members and I salute all who have contributed in small or large ways.

I personally think that until BR appears in print-and the printed version of anything written reaches a wider audience,will it have truly matured.For that to happen,it must have Indian roots (published in India),for the simple purpose of getting proper accreditation from the right quarters,in order that it has legal access to information on the subject of defence which is mostly classified.Armed with information from the horses mouth,not second-hand from the "family and friends" network, based upon rumours and gossip,or that derived from overseas journals-which are often inaccurate. Members and readers can then chew upon more accurate information with which to use in their discussions and draw on for their articles.The quality of debate and content will be dramatically improved and BR will be able to penetrate the minds of more of our citizens and decision makers more effectively.I hope to see more BRites contributing articles in the media too.

One other great element missing is that of the contribution of former members of the armed forces.There are many who would like to get involved but are a bit wary of civilians.A way must be found for them to feel comfortable with BR.A special veterans page perhaps can be provided,with the first aim of keeping the veterans in touch with each other and of interesting news of the regiments,squadrons,warships,etc.,that they once served with.Once that has ben achieved ,the rest will automatically follow.WE must have a chat with those in the Navy Foundation ,etc.,to see how this can be achieved.

Shiv has splendidly got together in one venue many celebrated veterans and some serving celebrities from all service branches at the BR meet during each Air Show in Bangalore.This to my mind has been one of the highlights of BR.The CD and pics of the show,as well as coverage of other defence related shows in the country have been splendid efforts from all those involved.In these acievements ,one can see that we do have the potential to raise the standards of BR even further,eventually turnigng it into an acknowledged Indian think tank on regional and global security matters.We must put our heads together to see how this can be achieved with the cooperation of all lovers of BR.I look forward with keen anticipation of the future posts on BR's historic journey.Cheers to all involved!


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2004 21:35 
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BRFite

Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31
Posts: 443
Philip makes a good point. GOI produces some excellent reports etc. giving serious info. But the distribution is atrocious. Example: Two years ago (or more?) GOI came out with a report on Pakistani Terrorism. They distributed it to "accredited" journalists, as well as to phoren Attaches etc.

Have you seen it?

That's because none of the "accredited" ddm had the basic reading skills to read it. "Very voluminous onlee".. "very thick onlee"..

So we got some idiotic sound-bite type mention of it in a couple of REDIFF articles, at most. Sheela Whatzit of REDIFF/India-abored wrote one. We tried writing to REDIFF to get it, and repeatedly offered to pay any shipping charges, or even go pick it up from one of them in Dilli and copy it and return it. Ignored, despite support from a well-known REDIFF columnist. Another "well-known" REDIFF columnist yelled at me for asking why GOI reports were not published so that the taxpayers could see them - telling me that "people like you are the problem"

Some time back I asked another reputed and very pro-India journalist in India, who runs a think-tank, for the same document. At least he answered - "its a very thick and heavy document".

Dammnit, people like me, sunil, and dozens of us on BRF THRIVE on extracting relevant stuff from "voluminous" documents. We've done our share of damage by poring through the proceedings of trials of Pakis, to find the really good stuff buried there. But NOOOOO , the Babus are too stupid to give such stuff to mere citizens. They give them only to these semi-literate boobs of the ddm.

So - if this is what it takes to get access to first-hand GOI stuff, I say, lets get accreditation inside India. Publishing the MONITOR every few months should not be that expensive if institutional libraries, think tanks and others can be asked to subscribe. I think the printing can be done inside India fairly efficiently.

. but be sure to have the Romance Forum, or at least, the Ask-Aunt-Kgoan Agony Column there, just to broaden the appeal.


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2004 22:03 
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BRFite

Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally posted by sudip:
I used to be a RA at SAMEER if any one knows what that is.
Sudip,

Do you know Felix @ sameer ??


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2004 22:12 
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BRFite

Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally posted by narayanan:
Publishing the MONITOR every few months should not be that expensive if institutional libraries, think tanks and others can be asked to subscribe. I think the printing can be done inside India fairly efficiently.
Even if it is not done every few months, a good collection and a half yearly mag can be sent to a bunch of think tanks all over the world for free. I don't think it will cost a whole lot to do something like that.

For Indian 10K to 20K (500 copies) you will be able to target almost all think tang orginsations all over the world. Thats not a huge amount of money twice a year or 4 times a quarter.


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PostPosted: 06 Jul 2004 01:17 
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BiG Boss - BR Site

Joined: 03 Jan 1999 12:31
Posts: 40
Location: India
Many happy returns to all the BRwasiyo.

Quote:
P.S. And Seetal Bhai (or one of my other fellow admins), can you please post the stats indicating the number of visitors we got in June 2004? BR averaged 18,000+ unique visitors/month in June 2002. BR averaged 90,000 unique visitors/month in June 2003. I would like to know what the numbers look like for June 2004. Thanks.
Here you go:

:)


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PostPosted: 06 Jul 2004 04:18 
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BRFite

Joined: 04 Mar 2002 12:31
Posts: 151
Kaushal not in the list???
Quote:
Originally posted by Calvin:
Its probably appropriate to list the top-10 most prolific members:

Rudra Singha ... 15905
Shiv ... ........... 12484
Narayanan .. ... 11852
JRJ Rao ... ...... 11114
Muddur ... .. .. 7756

Ramana .. ... .. 7626
John Umrao ... .. 7526 (does not include other avatars)
Calvin ... ... .. 6726
acharya .. ... .. 6694
Div ...... ... .. 6026


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PostPosted: 06 Jul 2004 05:09 
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BRFite

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 631
Ashutosh, apparently not, may have to do with the fact that he has not posted in over a year, or that he went over 100,000 posts.


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PostPosted: 06 Jul 2004 08:54 
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BRFite

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 218
Quote:
Kaushal not in the list???
I get the impression Kaushal is no longer on the forum.


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PostPosted: 06 Jul 2004 13:58 
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Webmaster BR

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 2914
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Quote:
Originally posted by shiv:
BR is serving like a HU-UUGE vacuum pump for pictures and info and people don't seem to want to put up the same stuff.

That gives me ideas. Websites - little ones and easy to maintain ones really need to come up on "niche topics" Uncle's/daddy's photo album from his postings in way out areas, people and places connected with defence forces history. No doubt BR would be a "sction pump" for these as well and pick up photos and facts - but it could do the site a favor and have a link to the

Well I think we should resist the temptation to suck the smaller websites and instead provide direct links to them. Besides uncle/daddy photo albums or documents , other websites can include special photo albums, like ones our BRF members make during indian navy ship visits to thier country, or during special airshows like the recent asian aerospace, or even some on tech stuff.

Also there was a recent idea to start a website dedicated to our Def Research and Dev projects like LCA , Arjun etc, things like that need to be revived again.

Philip,

Quote:
One other great element missing is that of the contribution of former members of the armed forces.There are many who would like to get involved but are a bit wary of civilians.

A way must be found for them to feel comfortable with BR.A special veterans page perhaps can be provided,with the first aim of keeping the veterans in touch with each other and of interesting news of the regiments,squadrons,warships,etc.,that they once served with.Once that has ben achieved ,the rest will automatically follow.WE must have a chat with those in the Navy Foundation ,etc.,to see how this can be achieved.
What you say is quite correct, and certain things have been done on this front. The Veterans History Project on the IAF section is one such effort, not only has it attracted numerous exclusive accounts over the years, it has a 'snowball' affect, drawing in more veterans to the page and getting more contributions from them. There is actually so much material now, that Future BR updates are not a worry now for some time to come.

Yes something is to be done on a similar scale for the army and navy websites.


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PostPosted: 07 Jul 2004 02:28 
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BRFite

Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31
Posts: 1562
Also there was a recent idea to start a website dedicated to our Def Research and Dev projects like LCA , Arjun etc, things like that need to be revived again.

Will BR host the same; will they be part of the BR main site?


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PostPosted: 07 Jul 2004 02:37 
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BRFite

Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally posted by Jagan:

Also there was a recent idea to start a website dedicated to our Def Research and Dev projects like LCA , Arjun etc, things like that need to be revived again.
Yeah, i have been meaning to put up all LCA/dhruv and other videos up soon again at a dedicated site..

Will do so soon..


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PostPosted: 07 Jul 2004 11:47 
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Webmaster BR

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 2914
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Quote:
Originally posted by nitin:
Also there was a recent idea to start a website dedicated to our Def Research and Dev projects like LCA , Arjun etc, things like that need to be revived again.

Will BR host the same; will they be part of the BR main site?
Nitin,

I assume the initial idea was to create a site outside BR.

I guess it can be done both ways either an independent site or as part of BR (assuming we have contributors).

Cy

Yes, its time to put up the LCA clips - I have had some clips from the first flight for a long time now, never got around to resizing em.

Also keep a lookout for the slides.

cheers

Jagan


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PostPosted: 07 Jul 2004 15:07 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 23204
Location: Embarrassed by fresh-off-the-boat Indians
Quote:
Originally posted by Mohan Raju:
Quote:
[b]Kaushal not in the list???
I get the impression Kaushal is no longer on the forum.[/b]
Kaushal is stil registered on the forum as member no 12 but the forum software no longer displays the number of posts. Kaushal is one of the webmasters (and a founder, I think) of india-forum.com


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PostPosted: 07 Jul 2004 15:16 
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Webmaster BR

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 2914
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Quote:
Originally posted by shiv:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mohan Raju:
[b]
Quote:
[b]Kaushal not in the list???
I get the impression Kaushal is no longer on the forum.[/b]
Kaushal is stil registered on the forum as member no 12 but the forum software no longer displays the number of posts. Kaushal is one of the webmasters (and a founder, I think) of india-forum.com[/b]
shiv, you are confusing the posts total with the member number try this link. it says total posts are '12' Did he go '00000' before going to 12? i think impossible unles the forum sw screwed up.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00000138


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PostPosted: 07 Jul 2004 20:22 
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BRFite

Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally posted by Jagan:


Cy

Yes, its time to put up the LCA clips - I have had some clips from the first flight for a long time now, never got around to resizing em.

Also keep a lookout for the slides.
Slides - Yes.. As soon as I get them..

Do you think its possible to upload those LCA clips from the first flight ?


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PostPosted: 08 Jul 2004 13:04 
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Webmaster BR

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 2914
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Quote:
Originally posted by cy_baru:
Do you think its possible to upload those LCA clips from the first flight ?
I will upload them - when time permits, about four to five clips each 2-4MB. you can use it for your site you are trying to build. I only want smaller 400-600kb versions of the clips so that bandwidth stays minimal.


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PostPosted: 08 Jul 2004 22:06 
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BRFite

Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31
Posts: 1618
I would divide that unique user 'hits' by two. Each of us access it from work and home approx.

rgds,
fanne


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PostPosted: 08 Jul 2004 23:56 
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BRFite

Joined: 20 Feb 2001 12:31
Posts: 238
Quote:
Originally posted by shiv:
Kaushal is one of the webmasters (and a founder, I think) of india-forum.com
That is what BR's HICAF forum morfed into after it got deleted from here.


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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2004 09:05 
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BRFite

Joined: 04 Sep 2000 11:31
Posts: 126
Location: Mahboobnagar
Quote:
Originally posted by Venkat R:
Quote:
Originally posted by shiv:
[b]Kaushal is one of the webmasters (and a founder, I think) of india-forum.com
That is what BR's HICAF forum morfed into after it got deleted from here.[/b]
"Morphed" is so apt..it morphed into a Frankenstien version :D . The hindutva levels in some of the forums are too high for my liking.

Yeah yeah i know 'If you dont like it - no body asked you to go there'

..thats why I am not biting


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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2004 09:34 
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BRFite

Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31
Posts: 443
Quote:
Frankenstien version
That should be
Quote:
Frankenstein
unless u r talking about his Marxist bro Tien...

Also, IIRC, it wasn't Frankenstein that scared anyone - it was his creation, the sad, gentle and ultimately short-lived sweet giant whom all the idiots misunderstood and recoiled from.

Speaking of Yindootva, the other day I went in a desi grocery store in a new (for me) town. Supreme HQ asked me to check out where the Basmati was made - and put down the first bag she picked, because it was made in the Land of Mice Schidt etc.

The Sikh gentleman who ran the store pointed out that the bag we eventually picked was probably not what we wanted - and showed me what he thought we wanted - the same bag we'd put down. I told him: " I won't buy that" and pointed to the "Made in TSP" tag. He smiled apologetically and enthusiastically at the same time - and promptly picked out another bag. "Made in California" he said - and "its all right" - pointing at a picture of a trishool on a corner. Apparently that's the Stamp of Non-Pakiness these days.

That makes it 11856...


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