India Nuclear News & Discussion - 13 Aug 2007

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Prabu
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Post by Prabu »

Philip wrote:I still haven't had an answer to my basic point put forward.Where is the official "white paper" put out regarding our energy policy and future generation of power through nuclear,hydel,coal,gas,renewable energy,etc.The growth/consumption expected in the future,the costs per unit of power from each of these options,the environmental aspects of each,etc.Plus,the future potential of generating more power from each option,which might escalate for certain options due to various factors (nuclear plants,spent fuel storage,clean-up costs, etc.).We must first adopt a holistic approach to the problem of power generation,before deciding to go whole hog with questionable TOT of the nuclear option.

One presumes that a certain figure has been reached for nuclear power generation by the experts.Has this been seriously debated in the country by all our energy experts?This whole deal is based upon India's "peaceful" uses of nuclear fuel and technology,not militarily.I haven't seen anywhere in the current parliamentary debate a comparison with other options.Surely,other state-of-art technology is availablefor the other options too,which are less controversial.We have massive coal reserves.Canada today is exploiting its oil and gas wealth,despite the high coistof doing so because of the higher prices today which make it worthwhile.We can do the same with our coal.

The danger in this deal is that we put on the line for civilian use our strategic deterrent and its future capability,and allow the thin end of the wedge for the nuclear hypocrasies to penetrate into our secret nuclear environment,hitherto off limits to them.This is achieved through the US's Jekyll-&-Hyde act,well demonstrated by the latest Foggy Bottom statements about any future testing by India.We havegone it alone so far with regard to our military programmea and need not compromise any future option.Ifsomeof our scientists are also working on military aspects,we will be open to future charges at an opportune time for the US to sabotage the deal.Is it possible for India to have two completely different nuclear institutions,one military and the other civilian?Can we afford duplicating our scientific human resources and al facilities too?It is going to be a very extensive and expensive task,that will still be subject to US interference60 yeras after independence,after achieving so much,we now want "dependence" in our nuclear industry!

Very relevant and very much true question, but perhaps very late too !?
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Post by nkumar »

From HT:
Australia will have to pull out of a proposal to sell uranium to India if it won't give up testing nuclear weapons, according to Government's chief nuclear adviser.

Ziggy Switkowski, chairman of the Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organisation, said he expected a ban on nuclear testing to be part of any deal with Australia.

Asked the reaction if India wouldn't agree, Switkowski said: "I think at that stage we have to reverse out of the agreement in terms of supplying Australian uranium." India would have to play by acceptable international rules if it wanted Australian uranium, he was quoted as saying in Herald Sun on Thursday.

"To be allowed access in one case to American technology for new generation reactors and to our high quality uranium you've got to be prepared to accommodate the rules that govern reasonable international behaviour," he said.


"I think continuing weapons testing would compromise that kind of a situation. As I understand it, an agreement with Australia requires an agreement with the US to be in place. That agreement is not yet there" Switkowski, who also headed a government task force into nuclear power, added.

However, the deal with the US looks shaky after India interpreted the agreement as meaning that it could still conduct future nuclear tests.

Labour's foreign affairs spokesman Robert McClelland said the government should review its pending decision on moving forward on a nuclear safeguards agreement.

"The US State Department has now made clear that the US-India agreement is off if India do go ahead with a nuclear weapons test. So the foreign minister must immediately make clear whether the Howard Government was prepared to take their proposed nuclear deal off the table if India conducts nuclear weapons tests," he said.
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Post by Calvin »

Basically, as mentioned before, this one should be in the pocket. Of course, not to rule out some crappy force majeure thing - you never know!!!
The one "unknown" is Pakistan. Pakistan may seek to "draw" India out, by launching some spectacular attack either in India or on Indian targets. If India responds by raising the ante, Pakistan and China can then claim that such a bully-nation should not be allowed access to Nuclear Technology. Such a spectacular attack would also have the benefit of allowing Mushy to show his fundamentalist friends that he is one of them.

Of course, Uncle may choose to squeeze and thereby rein in the irrationals in Pakistan as well - but by then the damage will be done.

If India doesn't react, the domestic politicians will be out calling Singh "unmanly" and other words. If it does, the consequences may be too great on the Nuclear front.
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Post by abhischekcc »

Pakistan is unlikely to attack, given historical precendent.

Pakistan has attacked India whenever it has felt stronger. Such moments of (perceived) strength were usually subsequent of American arms largesse. On top of it, Pakistan enjoyed relative internal peace among its various ethnic groups when it attacked India.

Today, neither of these factors are given. Mushy is under pressure both internally and externally. The one wild card is Chinese pressure. Remember, it was a phone call from Beijing to save the massage parlour girls that emboldened Mushy to attack Lal Masjid. Will Beijing issue similar marching orders vis-a-vis India?

I don't know.

What I do know is that the last thing China wants is India completely on the side of the US.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

Between Hindustan Times and the BJP, they seem to have got the kangaroos jumping up and down 180 degrees out of phase with the Energizer Bunnies.

India should QUIETLY tell the Australian PM where he can stick his nation's pompous preachings on "responsible international behavior". I mean, this is the same nation that expels a man found INNOCENT of any crimes, just because the Minister wants to show that his mijjile is shining?

And the nation whose cricket team is behind in boorishness only to England and South Africa?

Tell the kangaroos where they can stick their Pu.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

And having said that, let us get back to this wonderful debate on the use of nukes. I disagree flat-out with the notion that
once the decision to use nukes has been reached its a different playing field. And they said wah! wah!


"They" (the stanford Reds) may say "wah! wah!" but it's still bloody stupid to bet on huge city-busters, and not have any calibrated deterrents in between pitchforks and megaton bombs.

Suppose TSP uses a tactical nuke, say, in the Siachen region. Forget about the glowing waters of the Panch-ab, but let's talk about Indian response.
Or, say that TSP uses tactical nukes on THEIR side of the mountain slope at tha kargil front, to keep from being pursued when they do their downhill skiiing.

Will this call for nuking Islamabad and taking the wipe-out of Dilli?

Or twiddling thumbs?

Or is the proper deterrent here the sure knowledge that Pak Army Brigade HQ and PAF base at Skardu can now expect to be shaheed in short order? This is the deterrent value of tactical nukes. From the TSP pov, I would say it deters any grand plans to sweep across and have chai at RYK.

Same deal holds on the Russia-China border of Siberia. Russia is badly outmanned there - PRC has large numerical advantage. So Russia depends on tactical nukes as the deterrent to an invasion of Siberia. At the same time, PRC holds its tactical nukes shining in the Siberian sunlight, so that the Russians feel deterred about any adventures at the Ussuri River.
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Post by abhischekcc »

enqyoob wrote:Between Hindustan Times and the BJP, they seem to have got the kangaroos jumping up and down 180 degrees out of phase with the Energizer Bunnies.
If the down under ppl are 180 degrees out of phase with EBs, does it mean they are 360 degrees out of phase with pro-deal-wallahs. :P

Sorree onlee. Just couldn't resist a little detour into madrassah math.
Raju

Post by Raju »

our future nuclear threat doesn't come from Pakistan, it comes most likely from China. To use nukeclear bombs the country must have a perception that they are likely to get away with it. Pakis know they will not get away with it, however chinese might harbor different perceptions especially if they have info that the warheads are not mated to long-range missiles or there are delays in that project.
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Post by ramana »

N^3, Please switch of the auto-pilot for you are zeroing on the wrong part of the message. The basic idea is the weapon usage depends on target characteristics which means there is role of all sort of yields-low and high. The incorrect classification is tactical and strategic. The decision to use nukes of whatever flavor is a strategic one as it takes it to a different level.


Raju, The Chinese are under no such delusions of non-weaponized deterrence.
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Post by abhischekcc »

Chinese are long term players. They don't like to rock the boat, especially when they are on it :-o .

Remember, they attacked in 1962 after at least 2 years of planning. India of 2007 is not the India of 1962. And, MMS, whatever else you may say about him, is not the foreign policy buffoon Nehru was. At the very least MMS does not carry the air that he is the saviour of the world.

Anyway, on the topic of China. After the 'Great Holesman' died, Chinese grand strategy has moved from one of war-mongering to one of conflict management. And crucial to their strategy is to not allow any wild cards large leeway. An open conflict with India will pull many countries into the war. Countries like US Russia and Japan, countries that China does not like. They will try and avoid going there.

One factor that no one can safely account for is how the internal politics of China will affect it foreign policy. PLA still has veto power on the foreign policy of that country. And they have never been comfortable with any country other than China being strong. They have especial hatred for India. God only knows why.

-----------------
One wild card that India can throw is to be overtly aligned with US, confounding all hopes that the Chinese may harbour of a quick military adventure against India.


---------------
PS.
One reason why China would avoid going into conflict with a non-haiti like country is that a defeat will have unpredictable consequences on the obedience of its population. A military defeat by a foreign country may make the government lose face in front of its own people. Resulting in revolution.
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Post by Rye »

abhishekcc wrote:
They have especial hatred for India. God only knows why.
KGoan and Johann pointed out why, but that is best not repeated here or anywhere.


http://www.thehindu.com/2007/08/16/stor ... 231000.htm

AHWR to attain criticality soon, says BARC director


Arunkumar Bhatt


Design of Compact High Temperature Reactor optimised



MUMBAI: Even as the Prime Minister skipped the ‘N’ word in his Independence Day speech, Dr. Srikumar Banerjee, director of Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) talked about several important achievements on the roadmap of nuclear technology while unfurling the tricolour at Trombay here on Wednesday.

He said the Advanced Heavy Water Reactor (AHWR), a major milestone towards thorium utilisation, would attain criticality very soon. “Commissioning of various systems including the moderator system, loading of fuel assemblies and shut-off rods, deployment of an advanced alarm annunciation system developed in-house, have been completed.â€
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

OK. 8)

Retreating to Pak Enlightened Moderation thread now. :oops:
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Post by ashkrishna »

Somebody here wanted india to state clearly that it was not bound by the hyde act... that is precisely what the FM did in parl today...



India not bound by Hyde Act: Government

The central government on Thursday sought to allay the Left's concerns about the Indo-US nuclear deal, saying that India was not bound by the Hyde Act.

"Whatever is stated in the Hyde Act is not binding on us. How they (US) deal with it is their problem," said External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee. His statement came minutes after he assured other parties in Parliament that India still had the sovereign right to conduct a nuclear test and would do so if necessary.

Mukherjee said that there are many "extraneous and prescriptive" provisions in the Hyde Act, which are "not acceptable" to India.

Section 103 of the Act contains provisions about India's cooperation in containing Iran's nuclear programme and New Delhi halting fissile material production. It also suggests that the US would oppose the development of the ability to produce nuclear weapons by any non-nuclear weapon state within or outside the Non-Proliferation Treaty regime.

Mukherjee said that the Hyde Act was a matter of concern between the US Congress and the US Administration, not between the legislatures of the two countries.

"Whatever is stated in the Hyde Act is not going to be our concern," he said. "It is for the US government to decide how they will respond to the laws passed by their parliament."

When queried about the Left's firm stand on the issue, Mukherjee responded, "I have direct communication with them." He is playing the trouble shooter in the government's stand-off with the Left.

"We are assured that the nuclear deal is not going to touch the strategic programme, it is not going to affect the three-stage indigenous research, the development of a peaceful nuclear energy programme and the uninterrupted supply of fuel," he said.

However, Mukherjee refused to comment about leader of opposition Lal Krishna Advani's plans to bring in a motion seeking re-negotiation of the agreement. "We will give the appropriate response when the time comes", he said.

Mukherjee added that the Left has assured the government of a meeting after the Communist Party of India's (Marxist) two-day politburo meet begins on Friday.


http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/16ndeal8.htm
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

If the down under ppl are 180 degrees out of phase with EBs, does it mean they are 360 degrees out of phase with pro-deal-wallahs


Not at all. Plo-deal-warrahs quote Confucius:
Ret Sreeping Dogs and Kangaloos Rie. When walm and happy in pile of Pu, DON'T OPEN MOUTH AND BLAG ol u get Pu in mouth, and you attlact unwercome attention


Phase in the temporal sense, not the orientational sense.

Confucius arso say:
Fol phase diffelence, you have to jump up and down
:P
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Post by SaiK »

ideal case scenario thinking..
"hyde is there law.. and does not affect us"
is a blessing in disguise.

we need this agreement with hyde act in place., that would prevent America doing business with India, but America is bound by the agreement that would help us get what we want: Nucleaer Fuel.

strategy is in place. Hello Friends of India, get ready for big business deals to happen!.

make hay while sunshine.

--

but hyde also encourages UNkill to deny support in building strategic reserves, and / or work with other NSG countries against this agreement. Its upto Kahaners to change/modify/delete hyde.

I agree hyde is not a problem for us., its a big problem for them.
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Post by Gerard »

Seems the Aussie non-proliferation ayatollahs want CTBT...

Uranium deal with India hits hurdles
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Post by NRao »

ramana
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Post by ramana »

Gerard wrote:Seems the Aussie non-proliferation ayatollahs want CTBT...

Uranium deal with India hits hurdles
Aussies have their own security concerns. One way to understand them is to look at Sandy Gordon's work on India.

The big picture is they were twice betrayed by the mother country- first the sacrifice at Gallipoli and the next abandoned to Imperial Japan in WWII. They want to be assured that there are no belligerent rising powers in the neighborhood - PRC, Japan and India for their protectors are far away.
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Post by Gerard »

IMHO there should be no mention of testing in any India-Australia agreement... Australia is of course free to enact domestic legislation cutting off Uranium exports in the event of a nuke test or if a cow defecates in front of their high commission or whatever...
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

Much as I would like to believe those deep concerns, my bet is that they are holding out for the right price. The 'roos sold Pu to the PLA.. so they fit the old saying:
Now that we agree on ur profession, let's talk about ur price


I'd be with the Left and and the EBs to start an agitation against ANY Australian imports:
NO KANGAROOS WITH STRINGS!


These buggers themselves have conducted a NUMBER of nuclear tests on their own soil - and that for other countries (Poodlestan). So they have to be told off in no uncertain terms.

Their prime problem, though, is that their PM and most of his cabinet are far worse than Laloo. Australia is like Alabama and Bihar combined with Texan hats and swagger.

But note that all this is a storm in a beer bottle - entirely cooked up by the DDM.
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Post by ldev »



:) Do you want to believe the Times of Islamabad or NDTV or neither or both?

Aug 16, 2007 : We wont topple Government: CPM
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Post by Kakkaji »

Their are poodle sources of Uranium other than Australia:

Crown prince of nuclear power
McArthur River holds 367 million pounds of it, making it the single richest uranium deposit on the planet.

The more sandstone Rheault and his engineers can deep-freeze, the more the $1.7 billion company he works for -- Saskatoon-based Cameco, the world's leading producer of uranium -- can sell in a white-hot market.

Six years ago the spot price of a pound of processed uranium ore, or yellowcake, was less than $10 a pound. Today it has soared to more than $130, and some analysts see it going even higher.

Uranium's sudden status as the world's hottest commodity -- surpassing the spectacular runs on steel, gold, and silver -- is fueling even more speculation about the global market it serves: nuclear power.

Most of the world's 434 nuclear power plants already get their fuel from companies like Cameco, but the demand curve is due for a radical shift. Worldwide, more than 30 new nuclear plants are already under construction. And 200 others are in various stages of planning, including 49 in the United States, where the last new plant was approved in 1979.

As energy demand rises and costs escalate, and as pressure mounts for developed countries to rein in CO2 emissions, many see nukes as the only scalable means of churning out cheap electricity and putting a dent in global warming at the same time.

Cameco already accounts for 20 percent of worldwide production, owns the world's biggest uranium refinery, operates a handful of conversion factories, and sells the finished fuel rods. Its customers include more than 20 utilities around the globe.

Beyond those assets is a veritable gold mine of untapped reserves. Sixty miles north of McArthur River, several hundred Cameco workers are busy prepping another site, called Cigar Lake, to open in 2010. Part of a $500 million joint venture with French nuclear power giant Areva, Cigar Lake holds the most highly concentrated uranium reserves in the world -- and at 226 million pounds, its size ensures that Cameco's 20 percent market share is only headed north.
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Post by Gerard »

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Post by Arun_S »

enqyoob wrote:The CTBT was brought in when computing power reached terraFLOP level, IIRC. That was circa 1996-97. That was 10 years ago, when they were able to confirm that they could do first-principles simulation of nuke blasts to the accuracy and fidelity needed for design validation. These days TerraFLOP computers are not that uncommon - I think there is one next door to moi's cave these days. A huge number of basically the same processors as are used in PCs. Which means that ppl who have the basic simulation problem figured out, and have no shortage of Oracle Operators and PC chips, can get there pretty quickly. Esp. if they had succeeded a decade ago in doing validation of predictions using much more rudimentary capabilities such as Param.

So you are right - the deal is basically an acknowledgement that the stable doors can be left open now, because the horse has bolted long ago. Same in Space, because India figured out the cryogenic third stage. So all the noise about if-u-test - but v will test etc. is all nonsense, because both sides know that hardware testing is just a waste of fuel these days.

Convincing the uniform guys that their toys will work when needed, is a different issue. As they say, "Half the fun is in watching the buildings fall.." and there is no way to let them indulge in that. Maybe they could be given a large IMAX theatre connected to the mega simulator, and they can blast away to their hearts' content.

Anyway, megaton weapons may have been needed to "cover" a city in a country where population density is really small, or to wipe out an airbase that launches strategic bombers. Same thing can be done, however, by hammering the place with 10 kiloton-range devices.

In India, Pak, BD, and most of China, the cities are densely packed. A Hiroshima-type gadget would kill a few hundred thousand, still, and essentially end the city.

The other use for a megaton class device may have been to "take out" a carrier Task Force. But those things are now very heavily defended, so it is dubious whether a few megaton-level re-entry vehicles would get through the terminal area air defense system.
Back ~1988 trying to sell a Mixed SIgnal Tester for (DTMF and Codec testing) to SCL-Mohali ran into problem getting export clearence for the 20MFLOP processor used for signal processing. It was understood that computer simulation of nuke weapons can be usefully done with such conputing(sic) power. The US export bar for compters got progressively incread because ordinary PC and video games kept breaking the limit every 3 years. Today the 2 core laptop I am posting on BRF commands more than 1000 MFLOP, just enough to run the ROCKSIM faithfully :twisted:
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Post by Gerard »

Australia 'in India nuclear sale'
Australia's opposition Labour Party, which is riding high in the polls against the Liberal government, said it would cancel any such nuclear deal with India if it won November's general election.
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Post by ramana »

Back at the ranch
Left, NDA storm the House over US statement

PTI | New Delhi

Reconciliation efforts on the nuclear deal received a setback due to yesterday's US statement that the agreement can be terminated provided India conducts an atomic test, with Left allies accusing the Government of India of hiding facts and insisting that it be put on hold.

Left parties along with Opposition NDA and newly formed UNPA created an uproar in Parliament over the issue forcing the Government to assert again that India had not lost the "sovereign" right to conduct a nuclear test.

The pandemonium caused by the Left and Opposition members led to adjournment of both Houses of Parliament without transacting any business.

The Left parties told the Government not to take their support for granted, a day before CPI(M) holds its Polit Bureau meeting to decide on its future course of action.

Amidst a walkout by Left parties, External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee made a forceful assertion in the Lok Sabha that 123 Agreement with the US does not put any constraint on India.

"There is nothing in the bilateral Agreement that would rein in the hands of a future Indian government or legally constrain its options. A decision to undertake a future nuclear test would be India's sovereign decision, resting solely with the Government of India," Mukherjee said in a brief statement after the Left and the Opposition members raked up the issue.

Clearly dissatisfied by Mukherjee's assertion, CPI leaders Gurudas Dasgupta and D Raja alleged that statements by the Government and US administration were contradictory, indicating that some facts were being concealed.

Maintaining that the 123 Agreement contains no mention of testing, Mukherjee said, "India has the sovereign right to test and would do so if it is necessary in national interest."

The External Affairs Minister also said, the "only restraint is our voluntary unilateral moratorium on nuclear testing, declared by the previous (NDA) Government and being continued by the successor Government."

He said the Agreement contained elaborate provisions in Articles 5 and 14 to ensure continuous operation of India's reactors. These include fuel supply assurances, the right to take corrective measures and a strategic fuel reserve for the lifetime of India's reactors in case of cessation of cooperation.

Later, he told reporters that India was not bound by the Hyde Act, which talked about snapping of nuclear cooperation if India conducted an atomic test.

"Whatever is stated in the Hyde Act is not binding on us. How they (US) deal with it is their problem," Mukherjee said.

Replying to a query, he said there are many "extraneous and prescriptive" provisions in Hyde Act that are "not acceptable" to India.

Section 103 of the Act contains provisions of India's cooperation in containing Iran's nuclear programme and New Delhi's halting fissile material production. It also suggests that the US would oppose development of a capability to produce nuclear weapons by any non-nuclear weapon state within or outside the NPT regime.

On Left's continued opposition, Mukherjee said, "everybody has his own right to say," and pointed out that they had assured to discuss the issue with Government after CPI(M)'s Polit Bureau meeting on Friday.
The problem is all (GOI and US) are right. India can test and if it tests US has to invoke Hyde Act.

The issue is what is the GOI plan to mitigate any such nullification? This is not coming from UPA govt. By sticking to the letter of the agreement they are not doing their case any good. They now have to provide some sort of assurance that they can handle such an event. US Administration on its side can say that it will make a determination in US interests taking all factors into account.

Again UPA doesnt understand its not a normal government and needs support to survive. Its dealings with its allies doesnt give confidence that it can run the government. This daily uproar in Lok Sabha is not giving any confidence of being in charge.
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Post by SaiK »

imho, testing is non essential issue to bring a govt down. this is left.. bed with it, face the farce.

if India tests, then it has to be outta P5 member testing.. and still we could wait since, say china begins, and either becomes outcaste or gives the khans to announce its already secretly testing regime to fore.. russians go after the chain.

we wait, re design and do whatever.. the next planning should be such that, if given an opportunity, we continue to test every thing hell can see.
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Post by Manne »

ramana,

That is precisely the sort of thing GoI doesn't want to spell out. Not because it cannot but because it will hurt the plans. And that is precisely what China - through commies - is trying to get a blade to. MMS & PM have already given assurances but is the opposition (mainly commies) going to stop at that? I think not.

Meanwhile, what was talked about on this thread few days ago is now in the news:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... ewsid=9305
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Post by Muppalla »

ramana wrote: Again UPA doesnt understand its not a normal government and needs support to survive. Its dealings with its allies doesnt give confidence that it can run the government. This daily uproar in Lok Sabha is not giving any confidence of being in charge.
This is solvable if UPA (means congress in this context) get out of its ego with respect to NDA. The whole mess is solvable. This Nuclear Deal should be a joint effort of NDA and Congress. Even at this stage instead of talking to BJP they are only talking to left. Congress knows and BJP knows the answers.

This is a national issue and should become a consensus of Congress and BJP instead of competing to claim as their individual achievement. This competition is giving room to Left and other junk to play its game.
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Post by rsingh »

Let's not blame left or Chinis. MMS kept nation in dark untill last moment and deserve zhapads(with due respect). How on earth one could compromise right to test ( read upgrade and advancement of minimum deterrent).
The problem is all (GOI and US) are right. India can test and if it tests US has to invoke Hyde Act.
Not that simple. Consider following scenario

MMS get the deal passed by Parliament ( I am sure he knows something which we do not know) and we are happy. Just then brilliant strategist kommandoo on our western border does Chingai 2 , to force our hand in testing ( now don't say we will not respond) and loosing to Hyde Act. So what now.........give back all you got from US? Or sign on some doted lines ?
Last edited by rsingh on 17 Aug 2007 02:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rsingh »

Muppalla wrote:
ramana wrote: Again UPA doesnt understand its not a normal government and needs support to survive. Its dealings with its allies doesnt give confidence that it can run the government. This daily uproar in Lok Sabha is not giving any confidence of being in charge.
This is solvable if UPA (means congress in this context) get out of its ego with respect to NDA. The whole mess is solvable. This Nuclear Deal should be a joint effort of NDA and Congress. Even at this stage instead of talking to BJP they are only talking to left. Congress knows and BJP knows the answers.

This is a national issue and should become a consensus of Congress and BJP instead of competing to claim as their individual achievement. This competition is giving room to Left and other junk to play its game.
You got it wrong.......issue is not NDA, UPA, joint effort and answers....it is the deal that take control of Indian sovereignty.
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Post by John Snow »

The correct way would be like what France and PRC did before Shitty Bitty.

Explode couple of bums fata fat and the say ready for 123.

The explosions are to prove to skeptical Forces Indise and out side and at the same time fire two missiles accurately .

Tamasha khatam the Unkil and Indoo can sing

" Baaton Baaton me hum Tum khogaye diwane...
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Post by SaiK »

rsingh.. which part of the deal [ref: mea website agreement text] that says or references to the fact that India's sovreignity is at stake?

if you are refering to the mention of national laws.. then that shall apply, even if you say its hyde act. what is the problem with it? what do you think it can do?

btw, do you think hyde law prevents NSG to supply fuel? we have not drafted anything yet with NSG countries about linking it to US deal. If we do so, then I appreciate your concern.

Nevertheless, a point should be noted for negotiators when they talk with NSG countries.
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Post by Arun_S »

[quote="Rye"]
http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/16/stories ... 411200.htm

[quote]
AHWR to attain criticality soon, says BARC director
Arunkumar Bhatt

Design of Compact High Temperature Reactor optimised

MUMBAI: Even as the Prime Minister skipped the ‘N’ word in his Independence Day speech, Dr. Srikumar Banerjee, director of Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) talked about several important achievements on the roadmap of nuclear technology while unfurling the tricolour at Trombay here on Wednesday.

He said the Advanced Heavy Water Reactor (AHWR), a major milestone towards thorium utilisation, would attain criticality very soon. “Commissioning of various systems including the moderator system, loading of fuel assemblies and shut-off rods, deployment of an advanced alarm annunciation system developed in-house, have been completed.â€
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Post by putnanja »

SaiK
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Post by SaiK »

N Ram is under direct hot link control form chinky loving desi politburo! He has lost the hold for better sense and his affliations reflecting on the paper long time back. May be Jayalalita was right.
Last edited by SaiK on 17 Aug 2007 02:30, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by ramana »

Deccan Chronicle, 17 Aug., 2007
[quote]
NDA gives privilege notice against PM


New Delhi, Aug. 16: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was besieged by a chorus of protests from Left and Right alike in Parliament on Thursday over the divergence of opinion between New Delhi and Washington over India’s right to detonate a nuclear device. The BJP gave notices for privilege in both Houses against the Prime Minister for misleading Parliament on the 123 agreement signed with the US in the wake of a US State department official’s remarks that the nuclear deal will be scrapped if India conducted a nuclear test.

The Left parties, in turn, accused the government of concealing facts and reiterated that the next steps for operationalising the nuclear deal be put on hold. The Prime Minister’s isolation was complete when the newly-formed UNPA later said that Washington’s clarification was a slap in the face of Dr Manmohan Singh and he should resign if he had any “shame left in himâ€
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Post by ramana »

Op-ed In Deccan Chronicle, 17 Aug., 2007

[quote]
123 agreement is a gilded cage
By Dr P.K. Iyengar

For some reason, the text of the 123 Agreement of the India-US “civilianâ€
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Post by SaiK »

there is a problem in seeking parity with chinks.. the 456 would make sure MMS team to give a timestamp when India MUST sign up for:-

CTBT
NPT
FMCT
etc..

OTOH, per this agreement, if by the national law, "hyde act", prevents American to sell N-materials, then is it not the US gov flaunting its own laws?

Of course, the legal document since it appeared been the issue, and we are kind of being happy about the positives and how AK and RC has given us a cool thinking towards its delinking from strategic program.

IMHO, if we have that charted well, then its ok to commit a date for entering into those treaties provided India agrees as a whole, on the differences thus we were thinking against these supposedly flawed treaties.

Are we seeing the issues here, just an anamolly for crossing the boundary from the "have-not" to "have" zone?

ps: this deal is slowly getting into trishanku state.. neither US gov can change its laws or agree to something that does not apply, nor India would implement something on the basis of applying US laws on a treaty that is to supply civlian power, on a larger scale.

Only solution here, is trying to get to hyde and see if its ok, that america applies its law on "testing onlee" and not otherwise. I am ok, with that since, its their laws, that we can't change., plus from the fact that we have a sound plan to test/not to test in the future, if situation so arises.
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Post by rsingh »

SaiK wrote:rsingh.. which part of the deal [ref: mea website agreement text] that says or references to the fact that India's sovreignity is at stake?

if you are refering to the mention of national laws.. then that shall apply, even if you say its hyde act. what is the problem with it? what do you think it can do?

btw, do you think hyde law prevents NSG to supply fuel? we have not drafted anything yet with NSG countries about linking it to US deal. If we do so, then I appreciate your concern.

Nevertheless, a point should be noted for negotiators when they talk with NSG countries.
MEA website agreement text is misleading........I am afraid. Do not sign treaty if other party's National laws take your security concern for granted . Hyde law may not prevent NSG but do you really think US can not influence NSG ? Most illogical, sellf defeating statements like" India can test weapon and US can withdraw from treaty" fail to take into account the consequences of such actions.
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