India Nuclear News & Discussion - 13 Aug 2007

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Arun_S
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Post by Arun_S »

bala wrote:Rye right on..
This thread is becoming quite ridiculous with people posting Profool, Round as Shrillene, Perky and CPI&M clowns as the defacto opinion makers. What a hoot.

Dr. A. G. had this huge tiff with DAE with his claim that things are not safeguarded properly i.e. radiation leak etc. with Dr. R.C and this was on some TV program sometime ago with western supercillious experts questioning the competence of Indian nuclear operations. Dr. R. C. did a competent job defending Indian operations. In retrospect, this was slime job by Dr. A. G. in cahoots with the NPT Ayatallohs, IAEA nosy types and India baiters.

I have more faith in true pioneers like Dr. R. C., Dr. Ramanna, Dr. A. K., Dr. Sikka and other dedicated scientists of DAE.
The pissing in the wind match that the likes of Hrr Dr. A. Gopalakrishnan is what I call in Hindi/Sanskrit as "Buddhi Chuyt" {Devoid of knowledge}.

A fitting example of "Cha-choondar Kay Sir par Chamaylee Ka Tael" Litrally meaning "Skunk wearing expensive perfume"
Last edited by Arun_S on 14 Aug 2007 23:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by NRao »

N^^3,

This deal has both an economic and strategic value - to both the US and India.

US:

Assuming that the entire deal is around $50 Billion. With at least 4 players (US, FR, RU, and "others"), this deal will get split around 25% each (or thereabouts). So, about $12 billion per country. Over say 20 years on an ave - that is rounding to the closest 0.5 billion - 0.5 billion a year or so. So, I do not believe it is an economic reason why the US went into this deal.

Technically, again, the US probably is not a leader, so again, it is not the reason.

The US is not out to make a 'power' - not even a regional one, IMHO.

The US does not love India THAT much to do anything good for India.

The only thing remaining is strategy. IMVVHO, the only reason why the US went through all these hoops and gyrations. Told a bunch of lies along the way (J18 vs. Hyde Act, Hyde NOT binding, then binding, etc, etc, etc. MMS supported the Hyde Act, then came up with this worthless deal - which dances around on words.)

India:

This deal has economic value - to the extent that it will provide some relief in power generation. From accounts that I have seen it will not ramp up to anything huge. But good enough to make a dent.

Strategically, it amounts to nothing outside the US game plan.

I suspect U Sgame plan is to have a nuke free and democratic zones with India to anchor both, with India to carry the risk.
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Post by Arun_S »

Prem wrote:NPAUllah Perkovich turing Coal

http://www.cfr.org/publication/14026/perkovich.html
Do you think it’s a good agreement?
Coal !!! Indeed :twisted: --- As my collage friends would say "Musharraf main mirch lagaa kar bhoon diya, aur ufff tak nahin kar sakta"
Last edited by Arun_S on 15 Aug 2007 00:02, edited 1 time in total.
UPrabhu
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Post by UPrabhu »

NRao,

For power generation it is more wise to invest in wind energy. Look at power generation with respect to investment.
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Post by ramana »

Folks, One important thing is to look at the message and not the messenger. Making unnecessary remarks about the messenger is not called for. Shooting/Dissing the messenger does not make the message go away.

Thanks, ramana
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Post by bala »

the (US) administration actually want India to build more nuclear weapons as a counter to China. I think that’s a mistake.
The above is a clear message from NPT Ayatollah Georgie Perky. He wants his darling China to be protected at India's cost and he goes to hoops defending China by dissing his own administration. Just goes to show where his loyalties are. Give it up george, you are no different than the CPI&M clowns that infest India and who brook no quarter defending their paymaster China even at the expense of dissing their own motherland India. Georgie Perky is USA's CPI&M plain and simple.
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Post by ramana »

Has anyone studied the rise of Japan in the late 19th century? And what were the factors that helped it rise and the steep fall in WWII?
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Post by SaiK »

yes perkowitch coal comes from sea! and comes with barc design!

NRao, the deal per USA is branded as "strategic" onleee, and nothing more or less. They have also planted the word "special" to it.

yes, its any body's guess to think how India could be strategically important for UNkill right from being a China for Walmart to housing Nimitz for Defense operations.

perhaps they are eying some permanent berths at INS Kadamba!.

regarding CREing, I doubt WE are stupid enough to nod at the very thought of CRE. Hence, I would keep it at a distance from analysis.

I would be more worried in between the lines.. and the "long range" aspects of short ranged thoughts..

We have to let in all those natural and logically thinking to mutate the discussion and see what reaction happens and how things evolve.. this is exactly UNkill is studying.. how and where he can find the weakness and how he can exploit it without even we know that such exploitations is clear and present danger (in the future).

Just to keep a wide open eyes is not a bad thought at all.. but without justifications, neither ruling nor the opposition should pose and risk a good deal.

We want a good deal. I think, if we believe RC and AK, we can agree it is. BRos tell us AG has gone wonky in analysis. I believe we should take precaution against such thoughts by just sleeping with the deal, till it ferments a little bit more of the right thinking population.

X
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Post by disha »

NRao wrote:...I suspect US game plan is to have a nuke free and democratic zones with India to anchor both, with India to carry the risk...
Is it not a case where it looks like the point of playing devil's advocate has gone so far where you are constructing strawmen where they do not exist?

50 Billion USD over 20 years is a very large sum. Assuming it is divided equally among US.UK, France and Russia then that is still 750 Million USD every year. And that is just to construct the reactors. What about after sales and service? Okay let us say that is not a good enough economic sense. What about on the Indian side? 50 Billion USD over a period of 20 years is some 2.2 Billion USD investments a year! Imagine the boost it will give it to the local economy. Imagine the employment it generates! For years!! This has the potential of lifting further millions out of poverty and without IT-Vity!!!

Now here is the funny part. When millions more of Indians are lifted out of poverty and millions more are catapulted on to further riches, what would they want to buy next? An ipod or iphone or a mac or a toshiba or a sony or a toyota or a bose or a mercedes or a tata indica.... Imagine the sling shot effect it does to global growth and indirectly to American growth? Ah, but just now you proved that there is no economic angle to it. Or is it?
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Post by Dileep »

n-cube wrote:Start the stopwatch - b4 v c Henry Sokolski, Ed Malarkey and Dan Burton quoted as Herrows of Goodwill towards India.
WADR, his name is ED MAKREY (maakkri = small frog of the wetlands who make a lot of noise during the rainy season)
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Post by JE Menon »

Nrao,

>>AK fall

What do you mean? As far as I can tell, he stated his position. Got what he wanted, or enough to satisfy him to the extent that he has come out in support of the deal...

Where is the evidence of a fall?

To all,

Meanwhile, guys, have you noted what the traitor Shyam Saran is doing now. The guy who was sidelined because he was too close to the deal in the beginning, selling out, etc? I don't want to smirk, but sometimes it is necessary.

BTW, the manner in which the Indo-US nuclear deal would pan out was described in a single-para post just after July 18 or March 2 - either in the Indo-US or Nuclear threads - very much in line with what happened. I wish to god I could find it in the archives...Looked but could not find it. Pity. BR was very much ahead of the curve, hell we predicted the curve.
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Let us take American Help to help India

Post by Sanatanan »

Here is a mere suggestion:

Instead of opposing UPA on the deal as we saw them doing in the Parliament yesterday, the Opposition parties should in fact join the UPA and go for a great big chest thumping victory celebration proclaiming how Indian negotiaters have got the better of their US counterparts in getting assurances for strategic reserves of nuclear fuel, advanced technology, unfettered right to conduct tests of nuclear devices, and forward-looking consent to reprocess imported fuel (to extract Pu, U233 etc) in return for just placing a small fraction of its nuclear power plants under IAEA safeguards.

This may get Nonproliferation Popes in the US into real sensible action and may ultimately result in saving India.
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Post by SaiK »

Getting U233 out of Kerala Thorium spent from our future ADS will not be available for non civilian use. This is a given after the deal, needs emphasis since a billion desis mind would then some desh feelings and ask for the spent fuel to fuel some non civilian reactors. Its a human mentality and one could find raasta rokos and chappals in parliament for these in the future. Please make your minds for this as well.

Either don't let Th+Pu238->U233+Pu239 reactors happen in IAEA zone if its needed outside, or ensure its really dedicated to the nation under IAEA. I am blabbering here since, I am not still clear about the fuel needs for strategic use, and for those 0.2+ megatonnes, what types and quantities required etc. Tritium is plenty (must be), U233 could be obtained in large quantities in strategic FBRs, and the weapons grade 239s.

More testing or not, is up to experts to thrash it.. and many have taken the right decision to support those strategic numbers as said by RC. If all the 4 (still waiting for an answer why 4&5 became 4) tests of pok-2 went kaboom with complete fission /fusion, then we have to agree to our Desh-88 designs can be used arguably with testing with computer simulations.

The best use of AG and PKI should be where we can counter NPAs and for reasons that may come in the future. Never know with yankees.
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Post by vsudhir »

JEM sar,
Meanwhile, guys, have you noted what the traitor Shyam Saran is doing now. The guy who was sidelined because he was too close to the deal in the beginning, selling out, etc? I don't want to smirk, but sometimes it is necessary.
Kindly elaborate, pls. Hajaar intriguing.
BTW, the manner in which the Indo-US nuclear deal would pan out was described in a single-para post just after July 18 or March 2 - either in the Indo-US or Nuclear threads - very much in line with what happened. I wish to god I could find it in the archives...Looked but could not find it. Pity. BR was very much ahead of the curve, hell we predicted the curve.
A brief summary, or even better - a paraphrasing - of what the said para said would be hajaar appreciated. :)
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

Samuel, no I don't have a more quantitative prediction, for the following reason.

Look at how the Indian telephone system has evolved. If you sat around in 1985 and tried to project the number of telephones in India in 2007 (that is a short 22 years..) what answer would you have presented? What you would not have been able to quantify, is the effect of free enterprise, and the freedom to bring in new, competitive solutions.

Same with computers in 1971 (by 77 people were already getting excited about this thing called "microprocessors" though few could understand what they were jabbering about.).

Now nuke plants are not small like PCs or cellphones, but much of the problem with the nuke plant construction is associated with infrastructure, not nuclear anything, as someone pointed out to me privately. Telphones were small, but telephone exchanges and telephone line infrastructure were not small at all, and anyone who claimed that the number could expand exponentially, would have been viewed as a nutcase like moi.

So today you project using the availability of fuel, and maybe even capital. What happens when the construction boom brings in a huge increase in concrete production capability - and they start looking for new markets? At some point, new solutions will be found, that leap over the fuel constraint. Entrepreneurs are always looking for that additional paisa in the place where there is opportunity - unlike Babus who have to sit and develop graphs based on solid "facts" that even the stupidest can understand.

But all said and done, nuclear power is essential for baseload power, to get India out of the present rut in the short term. Which is why a oneliner (Ok, 2-liner) like the following by Prabu deserves to be in the "expert opinions" published on "mainstream media" like REDIFF than on BRF.
For power generation it is more wise to invest in wind energy. Look at power generation with respect to investment.
Last edited by enqyoobOLD on 14 Aug 2007 17:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Raj Malhotra »

India has huge amount of latent agricultural capacity and industrial capacity which is not being used due to shortage of electricity. Availibility of sufficient electricity will probably add a couple of points to the GDP growth by increase of efficiency of use in resources.

Incidentally I was wondering how fast modern reactors can be built?
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Is this correct?

Post by kshirin »

thorium unit in India soon

Source : The Asian Age
Place : Chennai
News Date : 3 August, 2007

India is on the verge of setting up the world's first advanced heavy water reactor (AHWR) which uses thorium as a fuel. "We have the design and the technology to install a 300MW thorium-based reactor. It is going through the process of regulatory clearance. We will start work on it in the Eleventh Plan (2007-2012) period... and we hope to complete the work within seven years," Dr Baldev Raj , director of the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR), Kalpakkam, said on Thursday.
In an exclusive interview with this newspaper, Dr Baldev Raj, an internationally-acclaimed metallurgist, said the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre at Trombay, near Mumbai, has been doing research into thorium-based reactors for the past 50 years. He explained that India was the only country in the world with adequate reserves of thorium to make the use of the reactors based on it financially viable.
"As of today, no other country in the world is doing any research on thorium-based reactors as they do not have adequate thorium reserves," Dr Raj added. This would be a major technological achievement for the country as thorium-based reactors would see the completion of India's nuclear fuel cycle, according to him.
The first stage of India's nuclear programme saw pressurised heavy water reactors which created plutonium. "The fast breeder reactors coming up at Kalpakkam and other places will use this plutonium as fuel. This in turn will help us build up an inventory of Uranium-233, which could be used along with Thorium-232 to run the thorium reactors," Dr Raj explained. He said that within three decades, the country's thorium reactors would start generating power for the national grid. "I am sure that by 2037 we will have thorium reactors in place," he said.
With its vast thorium resources along the Kerala and Tamil Nadu coasts, the country would not need to worry about its fuel needs in the future, according to him. Former President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, himself a scientist of international repute, had recently spoken about the necessity to develop thorium-based reactors to make the country energy independent.
With the commissioning of the thorium-based reactor, the country is expected to make a quantum leap towards economy and safety in power generation. Since thorium produces 10 to 10,000 times less long-lived radioactive waste than uranium or plutonium reactors, the chances of any radiation hazards are fewer in thorium reactors, experts point out.
According to Dr Raj, work on the 500MW fast breeder reactor at Kalpakkam was progressing as per schedule. "We are sure that the FBR will be commissioned by September 2010. It will start supplying power to the national grid by March 2011. We have almost finished the civil construction work. The reactor vault has been completed without any problems. The main vessel of the reactor, the safety vessel, core structure, control rod drives, fuel-handling mechanism are all in various stages of completion. From the end of September, we will start loading all components into the building," he added.
He said that his team of scientists and engineers were working towards a goal to produce power at the rate of Rs 2 per unit. "As of today the power from FBR costs Rs 3.20 per unit. Our dream is to bring it down by a rupee," he said.
( 1st thorium unit in India soon )
The Asian Age - 3 August, 2007 - Chennai
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Post by abhischekcc »

enqyoob wrote:But all said and done, nuclear power is essential for baseload power, to get India out of the present rut in the short term.
If nuke power is short term, pray tell what exactly is long term? Zero point energy?

You should spend time away from the packee threads. Looks like you have been infected bya bad case of madrassah maths.

India has huge amount of latent agricultural capacity and industrial capacity which is not being used due to shortage of electricity.
Raj bhai. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the villages DID get 24 hours electricity? They would run their pumps all the time, depleting ground water resources, causing a famine in India. I for one support only 2 hours of electricity per day for villages who are profligate.
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Post by ShibaPJ »

N-power is not the magic wand for India's energy woes; but it is certainly one of the best and cleanest alternatives. The only other decent alternative is building massive hydro-elec. dams (I don't consider existing or potential renewable avenues as addressing power gaps for future power needs, unless there is a new, evolutionary technology), but it would be as time-consuming as N-ones. and please keep in mind that the N-deal allows us to introduce the closed loop 3-stage program earlier than what was earlier anticipated.
Have you ever wondered what would happen if the villages DID get 24 hours electricity? They would run their pumps all the time, depleting ground water resources, causing a famine in India. I for one support only 2 hours of electricity per day for villages who are profligate.
Ridiculous extrapolation. There are many other ways to preserve ground water and other limited resources. Why don't the BRFites start hollering about the exploding 2- and 4- and x-wheelers in India; after all they consume so much oil, thereby inflating our oil import bills and top of it, pollute the atmosphere so much.
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Post by A Sharma »

‘No possibility of any interruption.’

Interview with Anil Kakodkar, Chairman, Atomic Energy Commission, and Secretary, Department of Atomic Energy.
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Post by abhischekcc »

ShibaPJ,

The problem of running pum24/7 is because of the free electricity that every politician promises to farmers. Once a politico gets to power, he realises (unlike NTR) the shit storm that free power will create with the states' finances. It will less money for him to spend on scams, I mean, schemes :) .

So, he simply shuts off the electricity to villages, and gives 'free' electricity to farmers for 2 hours a day. The farmers also run their pumps as much as they want becuase they get free electricity. Once they have to pay for the diesel required, they will shut of the pumps. Unless the crops begin to wither, then it is a different matter.


Of course, we on BRF know that the best way to solve the problem isto charge the farmers for the power. But then, we on BRF are not in poliics are we.
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Post by Rye »

The problem with abuse/misuse of the grid is two fold: rampant corruption because electricity is a state-owned enterprise and it is also the agency responsible for collecting, and the State EBs fail miserable at all aspects of generation, distribution, and billing -- privatizing electricity is the answer. Towards that end, private players entering the nuclear energy market is a fantastic idea -- it will break the monopoly these corrupt and incompetent state electricity boards have on all aspects of electricity generation/distribution/billing.

This, along with enforcing the law on defaulters will reduce the incentive for people to blatantly steal electricity like they do right now.

As of today, pay a lineman or a union employee in the electricity board enough money and you can get plugged in directly to the main line without a meter.
Last edited by Rye on 14 Aug 2007 19:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by abhischekcc »

Rye wrote:privatizing electricity and enforcing the law on defaulters will reduce the incentive for people to blatantly steal electricity like they do right now.
I disagree. Neither reliance nor tata have solved the problem of theft. What they have done is raise prices for the consumers that are paying.

So, the private sector solution puinishes the honest and protects the guilty, just like the public sector solution.


There should be service level agreements, like electric companies cannot raise prices with out first ensuring that at least 95% consumers are paying bills. But who is gonna implement these agreements.
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Post by Rye »

abhishekcc wrote:
But who is gonna implement these agreements.
The people in charge of the system are usually the biggest thieves, and I mean the MPs and MLAs and sundry local politicians and power brokers.
If you look at all the ministers and politicians, you will find across the board and abuse of power and lakhs of rupees in unpaid electricity bills.

The enforcers clearly have to be credit agencies not answerable to politicians with the legal authority and the money muscle to take any MP, MLA or similar class of thieves to court and extract the money from these defaulters. Start an open "shame list" of all the chronic defaulters that owe creditor/the public lakhs and crores of rupees.
Last edited by Rye on 14 Aug 2007 20:08, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ShibaPJ »

abhischekcc,

As I said, there are ways & means to address depletion of scarce resources. The threat of misuse should not stop us from improving our infrastructure for betterment of people. That's what I wanted to bring out. Proper identification & control would go a long way, but they prob are OT for this thread.
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Post by Roop »

vsudhir wrote:JEM sar, Kindly elaborate, pls. Hajaar intriguing.
I wasn't really paying close attention to this, so I could be wrong (JEM can correct me if need be), but I believe Shyam Saran is now in charge of negotiating for India with either the IAEA or the NSG, or both.

As a general comment on this deal, it is interesting how drastically some of the naysayers are changing their stated positions. Before the deal was finalised, i.e. right up to the third week of July, the naysayers (me included) were afraid that MMS would sell out India, going around the back of people like BARC/DAE/whatever. I felt it was a legitimate fear, some others didn't. Whatever. For my part, I always said that since I didn't know anything about India's nuclear programs (civilian or military), I would trust experts like Kakodkar and Grover. If they were happy, I said, I would be happy.

Well, the deal has been done, and Kakodkar has publicly and repeatedly said he is satisfied and the deal is good. Arundhati Ghose (who, as far as I'm concerned, is a tower of strength and integrity on this issue) has declared the deal satisfactory from India's POV. So that seals it for me, I'm officially happy. I'm no longer a naysayer, I'm a former naysayer.

But I find, to my amazement and dismay, that many of the other naysayers are still complaining. Instead of "We want full compliance with J18/M2" and "We want certification from AK that the deal is okay", it is now suddenly "We want parity with P5", "We want more nuclear weapon tests", "We want BJP and Commies to agree", "We want Perkovich and Bidwai to agree". This is ridiculous. Calling this "a shifting of goalposts" is putting it mildly.

People are complaining that the US is shifting the goalposts, but really, the :(( people here are no better.
Last edited by Roop on 14 Aug 2007 20:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ramana »

That report on India's electric power needs (205 GW by 2052) was authored by R Grover and S Chandra. Yes the same Grover who is on the negotiation team of the 123 agreement. And S Chandra was Dy NSA in the NDA.
So please take a moment before posting.
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Post by John Snow »

Growing up in the late 1960s in Hyderabad, We used negotiate with rickshaw wallahs,

(us) 'Narayanguda se Himayath nagar chalte kya?
(ricksshaw wallah) Himayathnagar me kidar?
(us) "wo eech galli hai na ji udhar'
(Rickshaw wallah) 'Ek Rupiah de do'
(us) Bara anne dethe aathe kya?
(Rickshaw wallah) Chelo saab.

(us) Thinking aatt anne ko poochna tha.....


This is how now we are thinking ' should have asked for a little more (Indians)'
NPAs: Unkil should not have given that much
......
........

(In reference Mohan Raju garu's post)
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Post by Atish »

Heck now I am worried about the Left scuttling this deal. They are trying to make NDA support it publicly, and enhance anti US credentials.

Wonder how the NDA is gonna whittle out of this one - can they oppose it in public and support it in parliament.

Is there any possibility that the Left would pull the plug?

Atish.
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Post by ramana »

Atish, That is a political question and out of bounds for the Forum.
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Post by ShauryaT »

MR: Bracketing all the nay sayers in a single category, is a hallmark of an uninformed opinion, as you yourself say, you are.

If the only opinion that matters is the SciCom and not policy and/or the military and if the only view that is valid is the economic one and the bare strategic essentials, then yes, all the naysyers are whiners. Including, may I add - a majority of all the MP's. Dare I say, were it not for the party whips, a huge majority of the overall MP strength will vote against the deal.

So, call it whiners, call the MP's stupid but those are the facts. If the democratic will is exercised, The Indian nation is most likely against this deal.
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Post by John Snow »

This is best opportunity that left ever had on GOI even CPI and CPM did not wield this much power during 1969 split of Cong into CongI & CongO.

They will not let the Govt collapse, they will extract some pound of flesh and get away with it. If the GOI falls they are not sure if they will have this much leverage. UP elections are a pointer to that. Mayawati decimated Mullah Singh Yadav.
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Post by Ananth »

abhischekcc wrote: Raj bhai. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the villages DID get 24 hours electricity? They would run their pumps all the time, depleting ground water resources, causing a famine in India. I for one support only 2 hours of electricity per day for villages who are profligate.
Spoken like a babu :) Comeon man, dehatis are far more intelligent than urban policy makers. The value of water is known to them, they are the ones who suffer from both droughts and fury of floods. If they profligate it is only they who will suffer. In my village there is an adhoc village water management body as a part of panchayat that regulates underground water exploitation. There of course is some problem with electricity distribution as the population density doesn't make electricity distribution economically feasible, but there are other ways to skin that cat.
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Post by Rye »

ShauryaT wrote:
If the only opinion that matters is the SciCom and not policy and/or the military and if the only view that is valid is the economic one and the bare strategic essentials, then yes, all the naysyers are whiners. Including, may I add - a majority of all the MP's. Dare I say, were it not for the party whips, a huge majority of the overall MP strength will vote against the deal.
The people who are nervous about the deal are looking at it in a single dimension such as energy capacity etc. But if we take a honest look at the reason why India is unable to match China's manufacturing capacity, it is because local industry is not up to the same standards as in china. So there is also an important knowledge dimension to this agreement -- knowledge that Indians can gain in the realms of manufacturing and industry. Whether India and Indians absorbs the manufacturing skills, make it their own, and push the envelope in Indian manufacture, is entirely an Indian problem/challenge. Hopefully, such indigenous tech will be able to support India's civilian and non civilian programs in the long term. Once India has a stable, self-sustaining knowledge base in the scientific and technical arena, maybe problems like testing moratoriums etc. will be non issues?

IMO, the answer to "what is 123 worth?" is to honestly assess the reality in India today and determine whether India can continue to support industries without the requisite energy it takes to push up manufacturing capabilities. For example, if India to go really high-tech and start producing wafers.....how are we going to run dust-free, air-conditioned, VLSI labs (for example) if there is inadequate power that forbids a continuous supply? Should we wait for 2052 to make this jump?
NRao
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Post by NRao »

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SaiK
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Post by SaiK »

Interview with AK:
What does Burns mean by sophisticated, state-of-the-art facility?

I do not know what he means by that. You should ask him that.
:rotfl:
What we have promised is the latest IAEA standards on safeguards. There should be no difficulty in doing that because whatever we do, we do state-of-the-art in the sense that whatever be IAEA standards in safeguards, the facility’s design will permit implementation of those standards.

We are quite capable of building the state-of-the-art reprocessing facility where the latest IAEA safeguards can be implemented.
As I thought.. We would be have a facility to reprocess that will ALSO accommodate IAEA specific requirements. What is sophisticated for Amriks is the same state-of-the-art for us.

IAEA standards and methods, procedures should describe how intrusive it is to do "our job" for civilian reprocessing and not dictated upon by Amri-khans.

In the sense, they can declare our methods & practices as unsafe and bring in westies and whites to do the job.

jai hind.
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Post by ShauryaT »

Rye wrote:Should we wait for 2052 to make this jump?
Not at all, we should have had the energy needed, yesterday. But, to say the nuclear deal "is" the difference between what was possible yesterday and what will be possible tomorrow, is up for debate. So, what really are our options, if not for this deal, is the real question. Once this question is honestly answered, in sincerety, the answer to if this deal is worth it, will be self evident.
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Post by Rye »

ShauryaT wrote:
So, what really are our options, if not for this deal, is the real question.
Fair question, but I think it puts the cart before the proverbial horse.

Before we look at options, we may have to look at the strategic imperatives and evaluate how each of these options affect our strategic imperatives...in the sense that we look at the effect of making each choice over a period of time and look at the best, medium and worst case scenarios.

It would be silly to start listing our options without stating what problem we are trying to solve and how that problem affects us in the long run.
Once this question is honestly answered, in sincerety, the answer to if this deal is worth it, will be self evident.
If a buyer asks a real-estate dealer about the "real" value/worth of a house, the honest answer the seller will usually get from an honest agent is "whatever you think this house is worth".

So if one places more weight on weapons programs as an indicator of strength, then the standards placed by the person on whether or not 123 meets their requirements of "guaranteed protection of nuclear weapons program" is bound to be high enough to recommend walking away from 123.

I think we will agree that, after 123, India's program is only guaranteed to the extent that GoI politicians and babus do not knife indigenous R&D and scientific programs and institutions in the long term. As long as those programs are funded and functioning efficiently, nothing has been lost by virtue of signing up for 123. Some events and actions may have been put to sleep temporarily for a few decades, but as long as one is alive, waking up from sleep (morarjitorium) is only a matter of changing intent after developing all the necessary capabilities.

OTOH, if we consider USSR's trajectory from superpowerdom, we realize that the real strength of a country comes from empowered and economically independent citizens, and IMO this must be considered a "strategic imperative", not necessarily in the bleeding heart sense but in the sense that if this goal is not achieved, it does not matter if India has a jillion well-tested and working nukes.

I understand that the question of testing is a more nuanced one, but the real implication of 123 on that front is "if India tests, it must be able to withstand the consequences of any sanctions imposed by US law". Is India's ability to withstand such consequences going to increase or decrease if US dependency on India increases rather than remaining in the current plateau?
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

Countrywise consumption of electric power.

Divide by about 12*365 = 4380 to get generation capacity in use (equivalent to full-power use for 12 hours per day).India is around 587/4380 = 0.13 (madarssa math) billion KW = 130 GW.

Increasing this to 202 would be less than doubling. I am saying that the demand is a heck of a lot more than double today's installed&operating capacity. And free enterprise will find ways of meeting this demand.

abcc: NOTHING is going to work miracles in the short term. However, until some magic sources appear, nuke power will continue to be the best bet, if you want something reliable, 24/7 - 365, to run industry.
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Post by ShauryaT »

Rye wrote:ShauryaT wrote:
Once this question is honestly answered, in sincerety, the answer to if this deal is worth it, will be self evident.
If a buyer asks a real-estate dealer about the "real" value/worth of a house, the honest answer the seller will usually get from an honest agent is "whatever you think this house is worth".
I have been in business long enough to answer this question. The true value of any item is the highest price the buyer gets at a given time. Period.
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