India Nuclear News & Discussion - 13 Aug 2007

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Tilak
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Post by Tilak »

Interesting Nugget !, in the midst of the "pull the rug" Commie talk.. :roll:

US, India discuss nuclear pact
Posted 3 hours 59 minutes ago
US President George W Bush and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh have discussed the controversial US-India civilian nuclear energy agreement, the White House said.

Their telephone conversation came as US officials look for ways to overcome stiff opposition in India and in the US Congress to the pact, which the embattled Mr Bush sees as a key foreign policy victory.

It also coincided with Australia's decision to end its ban on uranium sales to India, with senior ministers meeting to reverse a policy of selling the nuclear fuel only to signatories of the Non-Proliferation Treaty

"What I would point out to you is that the President and Prime Minister Singh have been very supportive of it, as it is debated there in India" after being concluded last month, Mr Bush's spokeswoman Dana Perino said.

"We'll see if we can get you some more in terms of how we can support Prime Minister Singh," she said.

"The civil nuclear agreement has many wonderful aspects to it, one of them being bringing India into the system of some monitoring and compliance."

The accord, which covers civil nuclear technology and seeks to bring India into the loop of global atomic commerce after a gap of three decades, was rejected almost immediately by the opposition and Mr Singh's communist allies.

"You have a country that has explosive population that very much needs access to clean-burning electricity, of which nuclear power certainly would be," Ms Perino told reporters while Bush was on his Texas ranch.

"That would help raise economic levels across the country, help create jobs as well as make sure that people aren't suffering from the ill effects that you can get from traditional energy uses like coal that can harm people's health.

"Nuclear power obviously doesn't have greenhouse gases, which can contribute to helping us reach the goals that the President has set for reducing greenhouse gas emissions."

The spokeswoman has noted that Mr Bush invited major global polluters - including China and India - to Washington for a September 27-28 conference on curbing greenhouse gas emissions.

The deal clinched in Washington last month allows India to buy civilian nuclear technology while possessing nuclear weapons, making it an exception under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

One of the trickiest issues - whether India's unilateral decision to test nuclear weapons would end the deal - appears to have been sidestepped.

The deal must also be approved by the US Congress and other nations under the umbrella of the Nuclear Suppliers Group.
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Post by disha »

JE Menon wrote: Yes, Shyam Saran will be involved in the IAEA/NSG negotiation, but his immediate priority I think is to do some diplomacy with Russia on the matter.
Very prescient.

[url=http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid ... sid=&news=
India%20gets%20Russian%20backing%20for%20lifting%20
NSG%20curbs%20on%20nuke%20co-op]Link[/url]
Last edited by disha on 15 Aug 2007 06:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by samuel »

"The civil nuclear agreement has many wonderful aspects to it, one of them being bringing India into the system of some monitoring and compliance."
Boy, they really don't mince words, do they!
Sorry, couldn't resist.

S
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Post by ramana »

One of the trickiest issues - whether India's unilateral decision to test nuclear weapons would end the deal - appears to have been sidestepped.
I think there will be some deal sweetener on this front. I was thinking as to what is the single issue that all the folks in India-sci com, political and strategic community have angst about and zeroed on the testing issue and its aftermath. They need some reassurance that the decision to test will be seen and understood in proper perspective. That can be a Presidential statement.
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Post by SSridhar »

sunilUpa wrote:With all due respect, please stop calling everyone a traitor. US does not need to sign a 123 agreement to attract people from DAE.
SunilUpa, you are unnecessarily using words like 'traitor' etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong, IMO, to leave poorly-paying GoI jobs and going elsewhere. There is no need to have false notions of patriotism. I simply have no opinion on those who leave DAE/ISRO as 'traitors' just as I have absolutely no opinion on those who serve these organizations as 'patriots'. You seem to be sensitive and imagining things up where none was intended. Do not take this discussion differently.
Last edited by SSridhar on 15 Aug 2007 06:47, edited 2 times in total.
sunilUpa
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Post by sunilUpa »

SSridhar wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:With all due respect, please stop calling everyone a traitor. US does not need to sign a 123 agreement to attract people from DAE.
SunilUpa, you are unnecessarily using words like 'traitor' etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong, IMO, to leave poorly-paying GoI jobs and going elsewhere. There is no need to have false notions of patriotism. I simply have no opinion on those who leave DAE/ISRO as 'traitors' just as I have absolutely no opinion on those who serve these organizations as 'patriots'. You seem to be sensitive and imaging things up where none was intended. Do not take this discussion differently.
Oh I think I didn't express myself correctly. What I wanted to say is that it's unfair to imply that Scientists at DAE support 123 deal only because they may get a chance to work at Oakridge. That is complete lack of faith. I am with you in that it's up to DAE/GoI to retain it's talent and they will retain them. US does not need to sign an 123 agreemnet to attract Scientists from DAE to Oakridge. A small change in immigration rules, classifying Nuclear scientists as high priority need, reserving certain no. of immigrant visa will do the trick.
Last edited by sunilUpa on 15 Aug 2007 06:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

I am trying to digest the news that desis at a Controls conference would ask an Oak Ridge presenter who gives the canned "DOE Strategic Plan Du Jour" PPT, in an open Q&A what he thinks of the India-US deal. :roll:

And the best interpretation to place on scientists being happy about having access to world conferences again, is that they are all eager to skip out. :roll: :roll:

Inspired by this, I will ask the driver of the suburban train tomorrow morning. Oh, wait! They have a big sign saying:
DO NOT TALK TO THE DRIVER
Dang!
Maybe I'll ask the guy who sleeps in the seat across from where I usually sit. He looks like a Top Nuclear Expert. Smells like he has been cleaning U-235 rods with ethyl alcohol all night anyway...
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Post by Rony »

The jackel slowely showing its true colours..


http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/ ... ion=justin

US threatens to scrap India nuclear deal


The United States is threatening to scrap its nuclear cooperation deal with India if New Delhi conducts a nuclear weapons test.

The US State Department and India have given different interpretations of the deal, which gives India access to civilian nuclear fuel and technology.

Yesterday Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told his parliament that the agreement would not affect any plans to test nuclear weapons.

But a US State Department spokesman says all co-operation will be terminated if a test takes place.
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Post by Raj Malhotra »

I was just wondering that when the Nuclear power plants flow in, are we planning to absorb the technology.

I think that major plant designs are:-

Russian
Areva - European
Westinghouse - Toshiba
GE
Indigenous

The first orders will probably go to all 5 in equal proportions. But can anybody comment which designs should be selected over a period of time?


My guess as to how to absorb technology:-

Tata - Areva
L&T - Indigenous & Russian
BHEL-GE & Westinghouse/Toshiba
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Post by Rony »

The jackel slowely showing its true colours..


http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/ ... ion=justin

US threatens to scrap India nuclear deal


The United States is threatening to scrap its nuclear cooperation deal with India if New Delhi conducts a nuclear weapons test.

The US State Department and India have given different interpretations of the deal, which gives India access to civilian nuclear fuel and technology.

Yesterday Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told his parliament that the agreement would not affect any plans to test nuclear weapons.

But a US State Department spokesman says all co-operation will be terminated if a test takes place.
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Post by Singha »

FORBES: looks like Oz want to tie up long term supply deals before other
players like brazil, SA or Niger get their trade delegations on the flight to
delhi

AFX News Limited
Australia to sell uranium to India - report
08.14.07, 9:40 PM ET

SYDNEY (Thomson Financial) - Australia has agreed to sell uranium to India for use in nuclear power plants even though New Delhi has not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty on atomic weapons, the Australian newspaper reported on Wednesday.

A condition of the deal would be that Australian inspectors would be allowed to check the chain of supply of the nuclear fuel to ensure none was siphoned off into weapons programs, the daily said.

The national security committee of the federal cabinet reportedly made the decision at a meeting overnight.


The government said last month that it was considering selling uranium to India after New Delhi finalized a landmark civilian nuclear deal with the United States.

The deal clinched in Washington last month allows India to buy civilian nuclear technology while possessing nuclear weapons, making it an exception under the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

Australia has the world's largest known reserves of uranium and has been under pressure to sell the nuclear fuel to India since agreeing last year to supply rival Asian giant China, which has signed the treaty.

Both India and China already have nuclear weapons and say they want Australia's uranium simply to fuel nuclear power stations to meet soaring demand from their booming economies.
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Post by Tilak »

Rony wrote:US threatens to scrap India nuclear deal

But a US State Department spokesman says all co-operation will be terminated if a test takes place.
8)
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Post by shiv »

Rony wrote:The jackel slowely showing its true colours..


http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/ ... ion=justin

US threatens to scrap India nuclear deal


The United States is threatening to scrap its nuclear cooperation deal with India if New Delhi conducts a nuclear weapons test
....

Yesterday Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told his parliament that the agreement would not affect any plans to test nuclear weapons.
The situation is similar to the one I faced with my girlfriend.

Until I signed a 123 deal with her she was refusing to sleep with me point blank.

Now she has consented to sleep with me, but has threatened to stop sleeping with me if I am unfaithful.

But I insist that I have the right to be unfaithful. Until I actually get around to sleeping with my neighbor's wife, I have my girlfriend to keep me going.

Hey. Whatmeworry? 8)
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Post by SaiK »

if you going to be unfaithful and truthful then there is a clash.. why marry, carry on with your unfaithful-vities.

document the trigger-happy case and security related need to test in the 123.

lets get to brass-tacks!

btw, this is not the first time MMS getting thumped by US State Dept! :shock:
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Post by ramana »

Raj, Basically there are two types of Light Water Reactors(LWR) which use slightly enriched U fuel- Pressurized Water Reactor(PWR) and Boiling water Reactor(BWR). GE is the original designer of BWR (Tarapur 1&2 type). Toshiba bought their rights and created Advanced BWR.

All the rest are derivatives of Westinghouse design of PWR.
Raju

Post by Raju »

The main question now being beamed by Indian media is now this question...

this is going to be one tough stain for Manmohan Singh to wash away and communists have got brand new ammo ...


http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/ ... ion=justin

Moreover the more important question is why is the timing of this announcement right on the day of India's indepedence. Is this a psy-ops to undermine India's sovereignty and independence and show the nation in poor light ? Something like Saddam Hussein's hanging coinciding with Ramadan ?

The more this deal issue is prolonged it gives massive leverage to the foggy bottom to indulge in all manner of psy-ops. This is not healthy.
Last edited by Raju on 15 Aug 2007 09:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Arun_S »

Paul wrote:
University of California at Berkeley
:roll:
almost without exception association with UCB makes an individual lose his soul to the devil. A irredeemable unwashed kind.
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Post by SaiK »

rony, in american english "may be" means it is true. where as in our desi con-grace logic its mostly not. why call for the jackal, when you can deal with hyde direct... and the reason for spending money for our babooze to spend executives and special people and all that agreements and coming to basics of what you mean and what i mean crap. this is where china though not an english speaking nation, is more emphatic in communication than our babooze. bad luck.. face the plant we have sown the seeds for.
Raju

Post by Raju »

The timing of state dept spokesperson is important, why on the eve of Independece Day he summoned the urgency to make such a statement. This needs to be discussed with priority. The rest of issues are peripheral as of now.
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Post by bala »

The US State Dept. still has closet NPT folks running amok, their stmts are catering to the US Congress. MMS is right, India has sovereign rights to test, and the US will be hard pressed (despite all their Hyde and Seek Laws) to invoke a termination - just not practical nor feasible and certainly not in line with the terms of 123. The Indian CPI&M thugs have no alternative and they are just posturing, maybe it is time to pay them of their usual moolah due from the chinese, in lieu for backing the deal.

On OZ Uranium, they will be in competition with Russia/Kazakstan. India can get favorable terms from later and Oz knows that they will be last in line for supply.

This business of brain drain is not something new for India and has been happening for decades. There are a lot of folks who are not impressed with working abroad merely for the moolah. Many scientist I know stayed back, actually returned back in the 70s, 80s despite the lucrative offers abroad. Working for a GE, Areva is not going to be easy either. There are lot of benefits working for GOI which are hidden perks. For example, free housing on campus, leave travel concessions for the whole family, top officials get to fly 1st class on Air India, full retirement benefits with medical coverage for the spouses (i.e. wife covered even after death of husband) etc. Pay grades are slowing being hiked but have a way to go, but I am optimistic that one day they will pay competitive wages.
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Post by Rangudu »

I wonder if the Left's whining is part of China's efforts to thwart then nuclear deal - one prong in the NSG and one prong within India by their trusted agents. Just a thought.
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Post by SaiK »

Raju wrote:The timing of state dept spokesperson is important, why on the eve of Independece Day he summoned the urgency to make such a statement. This needs to be discussed with priority. The rest of issues are peripheral as of now.
I think its a rejoinder to MMS's boosted fission statement that lead to a reply back. Of course, MMS should have thought about such a reply. He went ahead and said things.. to gain certain political mileage locally, but got socked badly with a big axe.

Its better to expose the bads right away.. rather later. Certain people were saying "Test Now".. and we are seeing their black sooted face looks now in the form of white texts with white background.

OTOH, if we are weighing too much on the word "test".. then we have to take a decision right away.. to stay away from the deal. Else, we should go ahead with this deal, with whatever we have and proceed.

Its up to our nuperts' headache to satisfy special interest junta!
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Post by Arun_S »

shiv wrote:
Rony wrote:The jackel slowely showing its true colours..


http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/ ... ion=justin

US threatens to scrap India nuclear deal


The United States is threatening to scrap its nuclear cooperation deal with India if New Delhi conducts a nuclear weapons test
....

Yesterday Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told his parliament that the agreement would not affect any plans to test nuclear weapons.
The situation is similar to the one I faced with my girlfriend.

Until I signed a 123 deal with her she was refusing to sleep with me point blank.

Now she has consented to sleep with me, but has threatened to stop sleeping with me if I am unfaithful.

But I insist that I have the right to be unfaithful. Until I actually get around to sleeping with my neighbor's wife, I have my girlfriend to keep me going.

Hey. Whatmeworry? 8)
Hypothetically, if you were married early in childhood and the wife is many years from "Gaona", and you have this girlfriend episode above, it is all good to sign the 123 and bed the girlfriend as long you can. Just make sure you get what you want out of the 123, and after "Gaona" when you have the comfort of a trustworthy wife tell the 123 girlfriend she is dispensible & if she want to play second fiddle she can take the job to mop the floor and be useful to lady of the house.

How many years before AHWR matures?
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Post by SSridhar »

Nuclear Renaissance: The Indian Scene - Dr. AK
We have thus come a long way in gaining technological independence in nuclear energy despite the embargo regime. Now we have to move further, rather rapidly, to realise energy independence. Looking at the severe fossil energy resource constraint that will soon impact us, the only way to secure energy independence in the long run is to take recourse to new energy technologies that can exploit other energy resources available indigenously.

India, with its efforts to provide a decent quality of life to all its people and ambition to be a dominant player on the global scene, needs to be a leader rather than a follower, in terms of energy technologies, specially the ones that can address its specific requirements, which in many ways are unique. The new confidence with which India is marching ahead gives the hope that this indeed will happen.
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Post by SSridhar »

Key issues, challenges for India's nuclear energy policy - Dr. M.R.Srinivasan
The inadequacy of uranium resources available in India, both in terms of quantity and concentration in the ore, assumed serious proportions. Thus, India found itself technologically in a position to exploit nuclear power in a bigger way but was constrained in doing so as it could not access nuclear fuel or reactor plants from abroad.

The inequity of the situation India faced was especially galling as China was able to import nuclear reactors and fuel from the advanced countries, namely France, Russia, Canada, and the U.S. The international community also woke up to the fact that India, now the fifth largest carbon emitter, could participate in mitigation of global warming by increasing reliance on nuclear power.

The world also recognised that India, although not a signatory to the NPT, had an exemplary record in non-proliferation. In the 2000-2005 period, the U.S. and India explored how the hi-tech embargoes against India could be softened. In the meantime, Russia and France were keen to resume nuclear commerce with India. However, it was the decisive Bush-Manmohan Singh initiative of July 2005 that paved the way for an end to India’s nuclear isolation of some three decades.

What is the action programme for India’s nuclear ambitions in the coming years? India could immediately import some twelve 1000 MW Light Water Reactors from Russia, France, and the U.S. Additionally it should build 12 indigenously designed 700 MW reactors. This will support a generation of some 25,000 MW of nuclear power by 2020, which could go up to about 50,000 MW by 2030. While intensifying the search for uranium domestically, India could obtain uranium from overseas, perhaps through investments abroad. It may explore participation in uranium enrichment, if its capacity in enriched uranium reactors is significant. Of course, in parallel, India should pursue the fast breeder reactor programme vigorously and begin thorium utilisation as early as is practical and economical.

India’s manufacturing base for nuclear power equipment is well developed for heavy water reactors; it is also being developed for fast breeder reactors. Indian industry can be inducted into producing equipment for the LWRs it may import from Russia, France, U.S. or elsewhere. Experience in other hi-tech industries shows that once the technology is assimilated, India is an economical source of procurement. The situation is bound to be so for even LWR equipment. India will have opportunities to export such equipment or participate along with advanced countries in projects in third countries. Naturally, India will be in a position to export a heavy water reactor power plant as a whole; a dampener may be a perception that these reactors are less proliferation-resistant than LWRs. There will be big opportunities for Indian companies and Indian technical personnel to service a resurgent global nuclear industry, in an era when the world as a whole is looking for non-carbon energy sources.
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Post by Rangudu »

I think there needs to be a minimum IQ level to post on this forum. Whatever that IQ level is, I'm pretty sure that anyone who believes that there will not be severe consequences for India after a nuclear test EVEN WITHOUT a nuclear deal, will likely fall short of that level.

If some jingos wants a deal that will 100% unaffected by an Indian n-test, then I suggest India stick to deals for supplying papads and chutney to ethnic Indians across the world. :lol:
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Post by svinayak »

Rangudu wrote:I think there needs to be a minimum IQ level to post on this forum. Whatever that IQ level is, I'm pretty sure that anyone who believes that there will not be severe consequences for India after a nuclear test EVEN WITHOUT a nuclear deal, will likely fall short of that level.

If some jingos wants a deal that will 100% unaffected by an Indian n-test, then I suggest India stick to deals for supplying papads and chutney to ethnic Indians across the world. :lol:
It think this was discussed before.
The debate was to test now and take the sanctions now or test later with higher GDP and able to withstand the sanctions. Some want to do it now. Others want to do it later.
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Post by Roop »

Rony wrote:The jackel slowely showing its true colours..
Yesterday Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told his parliament that the agreement would not affect any plans to test nuclear weapons.

But a US State Department spokesman says all co-operation will be terminated if a test takes place.
There is nothing surprising or mysterious here. Both sides (GoI and GOTUS) want the deal to go through, and they both face strong and vocal opposition from domestic groups claiming "You conceded too much to the other side!! We're being robbed!! :(( :(( " GOTUS is being bashed by the NPAs, GoI is being bashed by the Commies and Indian NPA/UCB types.

How to solve this problem? Simple, both govts strut around and play the tough guy. MMS says, "Don't be ridiculous. We can test any time we want, and this deal doesn't affect that ability. In fact, it doesn't even mention testing". US State Dept says, "Don't be ridiculous. If India tests we can slap them with a deal-cancellation so hard it will make their heads spin. The agreement says nothing about their right to test. Look at the Hyde Act -- I'm telling you, we've got 'em over a barrel".

Both sides are correct in a strict legalistic-nitpicking sense, so the respective naysayers on both sides won't be able to stop the deal, but in sensible practical (as opposed to legalistic-nitpicking) terms, India will think long and hard before testing again, and the US will think long and hard about cancelling the deal. In both cases, the costs for cancellation would be quite high, Hyde Act be damned.

Of course, the bottom line is that the specific circumstances that led up to India's decision to test would be the critical factor. If some future GoI behaved like a trigger-happy yahoo and tested just for H&D (i.e. if it did what a few people on this thread have demanded) India would be in deep sh|t internationally. N^^3 has explained this repeatedly, and there is no need to repeat it. If, on the other hand, there was a solid reason for India to test (massive buildup of tensions in the neighbourhood etc.), and India carefully kept the GOTUS informed/consulted, it is not unreasonable to hypothesize that the US would not strongly disapprove of a future Indian test. A lot of politcal words and hot air, sure, but no action. After all, this is exactly what they did in past cases of Chinese proliferation (missile and nukes) to Pakistan/NoKo/Iran/Saudi.

It is NOT an automatic given that some (hypothetical) future Indian test would automatically harm America's national interests. In fact, precisely the opposit may be true.
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Post by JE Menon »

>>The debate was to test now and take the sanctions now or test later with higher GDP and able to withstand the sanctions.

In effect this debate is based on a false premise, that we face a choice between whether to test now (and face minimal consequences, presumably) or to test later (when, presumably again, we would face much greater consequences). There is, in fact, no such choice facing the state managers.

The question of testing, at any time, will be decided at the very least by evaluating (1) a verification imperative, driven by the scicom; (2) the economic and political circumstances domestically; (3) the geo-political situation; (4) the reactions and their implications. If there is an overwhelming (1) and 2 to 4 are considered manageable, then we will test whether it is now or 10 years from now. On the other hand, if there is an overwhelming (1) and the rest are not considered manageable, then of course we should not.

The objective is to expand our power and strategic autonomy steadily to a point where 2-4 are manageable with minimal consequences. Remember, if the US tests today there are consequences it cannot control - one needs only to think of its withdrawal from the ABM and consequences to understand what I mean.

There is no need to test just to prove a point. H&D? Leave that to the Paks to work on.

We have no point to prove. Those who still think we do are welcome to elaborate to whom this point should be proved.
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Post by Prabu »

The key objections (leaving aside Nuke Test results, though BC, PKI are also raised concerns) of AGK is :


1) The countries 3 stage program has the ability to meet the energy requirement.
( Let us please look at this possibility without bias and contradict technically with Data! (We believe in God, every one else should bring data ! ) Not simply by stating, AGK has personal grudge bla, bla in just one line without even thinking !!)
If this is true then why do we want to put all Future fast breeders in safeguards ? we are simply allowing USA to steal our technology away ! This confirms many people’s contention here that USA wants to atleast slow down, (if not roll back)our research, testing and further improvement capability.
2)USA offers promise, in case of supply break downs, and decision lies with US CONGRES.
We put our nuke reactors & facility under permanent safeguards and we can NOT go back.
3) The right to take corrective measure in case of fuel cut off is just “Bull shitâ€
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Post by shiv »

Prabu wrote:So ultimately it confirms that MMS has surrendered India sovereignty. This just confirms the suspicions raised by AGK !! Isn't it?
That may be so. But supposing I say that as an Indian living in India I support this manner of surrendering of sovereignty?

There are two views on this issue, and even if you call it a surrendering - it is welcome. I personally don't see the point in arguing with people who feel that sovereignty has been surrendered.

Do I think th deal will be good for ME personally in the long term? Yes.

Do I agree or disagree with people who say that India has signed its life and freedom away?

Frankly I don't give a rats ass. All the major nuke voices in India say it is OK.

The only people who don't like it are the left whose words I do not trust, and the "opposition parties" who are doing the literal opposition thing.

Why don't we throw away this series of threads and move on?
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Post by Rangudu »

Re: "surrendering our sovereignty" -

I doubt that we will ever be rid of people who cannot come to terms with a self-confident, powerful India. For some people, such a thing does not exist and every deal or transaction is to be viewed with a prism of "Oh poor pathetic little India is getting ravaged by evil foreigners"

This is why these people want "ironclad"guarantees and the US to explicitly "grant" India a right to test. Little do these geniuses realize that if India was as weak as they believe, no contract, guarantee or promise will keep it from being exploited.

They just don't get it.

:roll: :roll:
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Post by JE Menon »

More than anything else it is a step in a particular direction, away from the notion that we can be affected by external judgements or assessments on any issue.

Eventually, once the various arguments are done to death...the benefits and the positional improvements for India will become clearer and there will be less talk about "surrendering of sovereignty".

In the meantime, we need to exert every effort to articulate the differing perceptions - just to make sure we don't get complacent.

Whining for whining's sake of course can be left to the bloody communists.
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Post by Rangudu »

JEM, Agreed. But my point is that most of the whiners here simply don't get the "funda" behind this deal. This is about squaring the NPT circle. Such a thing cannot be accomplished by "ironclad" agreements but rather the political impetus behind the series of agreements. That is why it is stupid to talk about Scenario X and Scenario Y and what would happen if "my aunt develops testicles" and "who will pay for the treatment if my cousin turns into an orangutan" etc. Such things are not written into contracts because they are political matters.

Guys - understand this - if the US' main purpose was CRE, then this deal would not have happened. Period. Yes of course once J18 happened the NPAs within and outside of US govt launched a rearguard action but at every step of the way the political leadership overruled the NPAs. Doesn't that tell you something?

So don't evaluate this deal based on your hopes of watertight conditions for fuel supply or this or that. It is futile. No US govt spokesman is going to say that they will buy mithai if India tests. That is not going to happen. Just read the 123 agreement and see the various stages of consultations built in to the text. Now add to that the fact that possession is 9/10th of the law. Now also add to that the FACT that India is not a weak state and it is only getting stronger.

Now tell yourself you want to whine more.
SSridhar
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Post by SSridhar »

Every country has its own interests to protect. The US is not going to do anything for India if there is no possibility of a gain for it somehow. I am sure India would also do the same thing, if it can. It will never be a zero-sum game and no one should expect that India will get everything that it wanted. Howsoever jingoistic a BRFite is, the truth is India is simply not in a position to arm-twist the US.

It is unrealistic to expect that there won't be a reaction if India tests unilaterally. In any case, there is no need to raise this hypothetical question now. If the question is raised, we should also be prepared to receive an unpalatable answer.

Just remember that India could not have tested the weapons in the 80s and 90s. When the time came, we did test and endured the shrillest voices and sanctions from Clinton, Madeline Albright, China, Oz etc. We didn't care and had the last laugh within a few years.

Not being overly dogmatic, there is no harm in us kafirs practising a few concepts alien to us, one of them being hudabaiya.
JE Menon
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Post by JE Menon »

>>If the question is raised, we should also be prepared to receive an unpalatable answer.

Agree with both u guys fundamentally.

As to the above point, indeed, you are on the money. That is why this deal is especially helpful. Should it come to pass that a test is necessary, this deal will ensure that it is in the interest of all concerned that they give us an answer that is least unpalatable for us. By then they will have something to loose too... The idea is to build interdependency to such a level that neither side has an interest in the instability of the other...

Make no mistake, the idea that India must be undone into tinier pieces to make it easier to swallow still gnaws at the hearts of some of our good friends. We must operate under this assumption, however far it may be from the intention... But this must not hamstring us from acting with the confidence that financial and softpower realities on the ground mandate. It is a tricky call, but the Yindoo civilisation is especially suited for operating within this sort of contradictory paradigm...
Prabu
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Post by Prabu »

shiv wrote:
Prabu wrote:So ultimately it confirms that MMS has surrendered India sovereignty. This just confirms the suspicions raised by AGK !! Isn't it?
That may be so. But supposing I say that as an Indian living in India I support this manner of surrendering of sovereignty?

What does this mean ?? Indians whether they are in India or abroad, they are Indians ! And I have the equal right to protect Indian interests, irrespective of where I live !! It is NOT as if Indians living abroad are blindly against the deal !

Data, that is still missing from the experts and defenders of the deal.

What is the alternate energy source statistics ? 3 stage program’s ouput ? Does this really match AGK’s ?? If NO then please say so, that will only clear ALL the doubts.

Telephone discussion of Bush, with our PM

Quote :
“ Bush had congratulated Manmohan Singh and the Indian people on the eve of the 60th anniversary of India's independence Tuesday, she said. 'The two leaders also discussed the civil nuclear cooperation initiative, climate change, the importance of a successful outcome in the Doha round (?) , and regional security.â€
Desh Bhagat
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Post by Desh Bhagat »

I for one would not be celebrating August 15, but mourn the death of my beloved fatherland. Once again, our so called netas have sold the country for cheap. Reminds me of the saying of old khalsa warrior after the second Anglo-Sikh war after laying down his arms "Today, my Ranjit Singh is dead".
CRamS
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Post by CRamS »

enqyoob wrote:I am trying to digest the news that desis at a Controls conference would ask an Oak Ridge presenter who gives the canned "DOE Strategic Plan Du Jour" PPT, in an open Q&A what he thinks of the India-US deal. :roll:
Keep rolling, but I asked because he alluded to USA's nuke cooperation with other countries across the world. He mentioned the issue of advnacing US non-prolifeartion goals through cooperation.
enqyoobOLD
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

Funny thing is that these uber-patriots would be only too glad to let Robert Clive, Simon Legree, Andre Nel and Chengis Khan into the country and buy up and f**k up whatever they want.. AS LONG AS INDIA IS "ALLOWED" TO CONDUCT LIVE TESTS OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

Exactly hu u gonna nuke with those well-tested weapons when
Lal kile par lal nishaan
Maang raha hai Commiestan


Is the reality?

Maybe, like the Centralized Pu Reprocessing Phajility, India will be "allowed" to set up the
CENTRALIZED NUCLEAR BLAST FACILITY
where all the P-8 can come and test their nukes, outsourcing the radiation and the glowing Pu FREE to Indians? Wouldn't that be a SUPER solution to this issue? :roll:
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