Bharat Rakshak

This thread is about national security

Kumar: Some links for whatever they are worth - some of the essays/items are very provocative, colorful & subjective.
1) http://www.newstodaynet.com/col.php?sec ... 33&id=9909 V Sundaram is as usual bombastic.
2) http://kumarsbol.blogspot.com/2009/09/y ... ian-1.html This blogger concludes

The blogger has a series dedicated to YSR and analyzes AP and YSR in far detail. Lots of information.
3) http://in.christiantoday.com/articles/v ... s/4481.htm An article from Christian Today.
4) http://www.sanghparivar.org/blog/rkm/an ... -by-hindus An essay from Sangh Parivar.
5) http://www.boloji.com/opinion/0211.htm Another essay by V. Sundaram

http://in.christiantoday.com/articles/v ... s/4481.htm

For all that's said about corruption and what not, it is undeniable that there are very favorable opinions about YSR.

ramana, ShyamSP:

From the links and quotes that you posted, the underlined part is very important. I went to a NRI-TDP meet with few MLA contested and lost folks in that meet. Not doing what YSR did was the main reason that they cited for TDP losing the elections. This is the fundamental for YSR success.

The setup was always that local councellor/MLA/MP or ZPP/MPP chairman/panchayat presidents etc. used to have a say or special stauts when they interact with local babus like collectors, Mandal chiefs etc. It is that way for a very long time. The collector will listen to local MLAs and MPs and other elected officals in decision making though there was no rule/reason for the offical to follow that path. The reason is that the party leadership decentralizes certain micro level things in an un-written fashion. However, the CM is also in the loop.

However, CBN changed that approach completely in his technical drive. He used to conduct weekly televised video conferences with the local government officials directly and the clout for the local elected folks has gone down to such an extent and they don't even know what is their role in local stuff from where they are elected. On the otherhand the officials also have become more powerful as they need to answer only to the CM and no need to care local MLAs etc. This approach of centralized handling (using new communication technology) is something that did not go well with the elected folks though CBN had achieved a lot of action from such activities. The officals hated CBN becasue they have to work.

YSR went a step ahead and de-centralized unoffically all the activities (including local land aquisition/contracts type things) to his loyalists and that is his success and that is reason for this make Jagan as CM so that the dandha continues.

YSR chopper had not deviated from its path

Hyderabad: A map drawn by the Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) probe into the crash of the helicopter carrying Andhra Pradesh chief minister Y S R Reddy reveals that the aircraft had not deviated 18 km from its stated path, as reports said earlier, sources told Mumbai Mirror.

The helicopter was on the right path, but was flying at 1,200 metres above mean sea level (MSL); such aircraft fly at a height of 1,200 to 7,000 metres. It first hit a tree before crashing into the 1,500-metre Rudrakonda hill in the dense Nallamala forest near Kurnool.

Revealing this crucial information, sources said, “The copter was well within the designated coordinates and altitude. But, there is the possibility of the copter being pulled down by air pockets formed in the Columbus Clouds.”

The sources said, “A helicopter pilot relies 50 per cent on the map and the rest on visibility. If the weather is bad, he can refuse to fly. It is to be verified whether the pilot’s decision to fly was wrong, and under what circumstances he took that decision.”

Incidentally, doubts have been raised about the validity of pilot S K Bhatia’s flying licence.

According to our source, “Though the Bell 430 is maintained by the State government, its operations are fully under the control of the DGCA as far as Andhra Pradesh is concerned.” Also, all the mandatory checks, including anti-sabotage and a probe by the dog squad, were conducted after Bhatia and co-pilot M S Reddy underwent blood pressure and alcohol tests.

The 11-year-old twin-engine Bell 430 had a certificate of validity for service till December 5 this year, but it was not taken for the mandatory one-and-a-half hour trial run due to lack of time.

The head of the DGCA probe team, R K Thyagi, said in Kurnool that the accident took place 355 feet above MSL. The team is awaiting the result of the decoding of the cockpit voice recorder (CVR), being carried out in Delhi.

The CVR is a device that records conversations of all those using headphones in the aircraft. Usually, the pilot and co-pilot always use headphones. The CVR can reveal why the copter was flying low. Another device being studied is the Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT), which can be decoded only by the company’s experts.

The DGCA is expected to submit its report within two weeks.

Meanwhile, the CBI has formed a multi-disciplinary investigation team (MDIT) of experts to probe the accident.

Point to be noted: The Nielsen surveys comes when someone orders it to do survey for helping someone. My take - Uncle wants Jagan as CM.

Cong has a problem: YSR son points to ‘people’s wish’

Drawing faultlines in the Andhra Congress after the party high command sent clear signals it was reluctant to anoint him as the late YSR’s successor despite the clamour in the state unit, son Jaganmohan Reddy today told those with a line open to Delhi that the party “cannot ignore” the “wishes of the people”.

...
...

Jaganmohan supporters are also waving snap polls conducted in Andhra Pradesh. One such poll by Nielsen for NTV said 78 per cent of those interviewed across the state considered Jaganmohan the best option for CM and 65 per cent said he would be able to fulfil his father’s dream better than other candidates.

The helicopter did not deviate in path but deviated in its destination for sure.

Ok
YSR amar hai , magar paisa khidar hai is my new slogan.
I want to make T shirts with that slogan and sell.
hows that to find out where the money is? no?

for Girls aka PYT,

"Watch the hills while landing"
will be embossed on the front of Tshirts women sizes28 and above. .. only please ABC is all fine.

Thanks, SwamyG for those links to the articles about YSR. The situation is even more horrific than what one had imagined. Some excerpts:





I suppose that these measures instituted by YSR are still in place.

Pranav-> TTD also does Mass Marraiges for Hindus, nothing wrong in helping poor people from all religions including minorities from getting Married. The problem is when they try to convert children or poor people.

I guess the problem is that donors to Hindu temples and Taxpayers are being forced to cough up the funding.

If the funds were coming Church donations, then it would not be an issue.

As regards TTD, its funds come from temple donors. I wonder, though, whether it can match the lavish scale of the Taxpayer funded Christian weddings, with Rs 15,000 being gifted to each couple.

SwamyG, when I say Union Govt. I do not refer to the current one only. When BJP-led NDA was in power, was there a move to abolish the missionary visa?

How serious were their attempts to reform NGO funding and restrict Wahabbi and EJ funds moving to India?

Not very, right?

So, why is YSR the focus of this EJ debate?

YSR is a politician. He tried to be many things to many people:

Secular subsidies - Free power, Subsidized/free health care, subsidized rice, old age pensions
Religious Subsidies - Bethlehem Trip subsidy, Hindu Pilgrimage subsidy (came later), grants from minority welfare for repair of religious structures (it also included Mosques, by the way - not just churches)
Special Interest Indulgence - 5% reservation for Muslims
Cultivation of Big Business - Liberal approvals for SEZs, award of some project contracts on nomination basis, favours to business families like Maytas (of course, Raju family were complete thugs who sunk everyone with them. No basis to say it was only because of YSR. No amount of bleating on this subject is going to prove this contention).

He widely publicized the govt. determination to expand Irrigation massively and executed the program. There is corruption, but not anything different from any other Govt. in AP or other states.

He also countered Majlis plan to re-conquer Hyderabad's Mayoralty by diluting the muslim vote %age by increasing the Hyderabad Urban Agglomeration to become the second largest in the country. People can say this was to facilitate accretion of land values of his favoured people. But, this happend within the first year of his coming to power in 2005 (was promulgate in 2006 after High Court struck down Majlis' objections). That left very little time for his people to corner prime cuts of land to benefit exclusively.

He also quelled the controversy (created primarily by BJP, I might add) about proselytization on Tirumala hills by declaring all the 7 hills and surrounding areas and other temple surroundings such as Srisailam, as sacred/protected areas, where (by law) any non-Hindu religious activity is an offence. Something no other Govt. did. Is something like this in existence anywhere else in India? Would be interesting to find out.

He has effectively marginalized K.A. Paul (the jet-setting Evangelist) and cut the ground under his feet and made him run to TDP crying Uncle. His Son-in-Law's piousness is a year or so old. Here too the primarily motivation may be to dip his family's hand into the copious EJ funds and not really to add conversions (which K.A Paul was doing quite well. So, why was he not coopted?).

The above are all matter of public record.

So, what is so exclusively Christianist iin the above programmes?

His undercutting the majlis is a way for him to maintain his power.We can leave it off,as anyways we are speculating that he is into EJ not minority appeasement.

Also when we talk about religious tolerance in AP, we can always leave the tirupati and the 7 hills out.The TDD is no more than a cash cow.With gold worth of 55000 crores,any CM would not like to loose a revenue and a person will be concious of his guilt.I would give 7 hills for the rest of the state on any day.We usually have VAT and other schemes for increasing revenue.I would put the 7 hills declaration in the same category.You took care of your one of the best sources of income.

I have an observation regarding Churches/Prayer rooms versus Temples.

Most Hindu temples are build by community donations. A few are funded by TTD and other Devasthanams. As the society has become wealthier, I find grander temples being built.

Most new Churches/Prayer Halls seem to be coming up through a central source of funding.

I wonder which is a more sustainable trend? I would bet on community donations. A centralized funding source not located within the community cannot be self-sustaining.

I prefer to remain the optimist. I think, at least as far as AP is concerned, the bulk of the society has grown economically to a point where conversion agenda will not succeed. There are still a mass of people that are deprived. But, they remain small pockets and hence the overall conversion agenda is not going to succeed.

I am an optimist, of course.

Some or many postors can also say that I am one of the people who wants to hide the extent of EJ problem and by writing these sort of posts, I want to lull everyone into a fall sense of security.

Fine. As they say, even the paranoid may have real enemies.

May be the others are right. Perhaps, I am the naive one here who has pushed his head into sand and resolutely wants it to stay there.

Good evening and there shall be no more from me. Indulge yourselves

A lot of people convert to escape the social stigma of SC/ST or lower castes.
I think it is all transitional phase. All regions Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Islam are built on the foundation of blind faith and imagination. None of these religions stand up to logic. As we have seen in the USA, more and more people call themselves spiritual but not religious. As the economic power increases and people study more, all these people converted or not will simply stop believing in this Christianity or any other religion. It may not happen in 5 years but may be in 20 years. Why do more and more people are going towards meditation and Buddhism because that offers a way to look into yourself not some cock and bull imaginative stories in Bible or Ramayan. The shelf life of these religions is coming to an end.

EJ is not the focus of the debate. It is one aspect of YSR. In fact several members, including me, talked about the ORR in Hyderabad. BJP has its own shares of flaws and problems - both of action and inaction. Can you provide a link or source about BJP's hand in the Tirumala hills?

Er well what has economic power got to do with giving up religion. One authority in a matham said that the donations by during boom time to matha has increased and there is also a renewed interest to study philosophy. Iam also a part of a respectable organization whose members can by no means be said to be poor. As for Budhism go ahead and check on the myths involved in Budhism.

Kumar: You bring the point of funding of temples and churches. It is a point about organized religion versus the Indic dharmic tradition (a.k.a Hinduism). Probably an OT here.

Folks if you start comparing religions and discussing religions per se, this thread will get locked in a jiffy. And in the process some of you would end up getting banned. As you can see the thread is already under life line. Please don't get religious here; the guru log's general consensus is EJ has effects on the Country. With regards to the thread, either YSR had a role or did not have a role in promoting EJ. We should restrict EJ discussions on that line alone.

economic upswing may actually increase "fundamentalism" - think of Malaysia, Indonesia - their rise of Islamism coincides with economic success. It is a much more complex dynamic. Please, do not try an equal equal only by bracketing the Abrahamic with the non-Abrahamic.

If in AP, Ej-ism declines into "spirituality" then that wil nnot be due to economic upliftment - but because of any potential failure to provide increasing power to the dominant "castes". EJ-ism of the type promoted by YSR is a political tactic to attach "lower-castes" electorally to dominant castes. Any alternative empowerment to the "lower" castes will reduce the power of the Church, and the dominants will quickly join the new bandwagon.

Excessive sensitivity against exploring the role and links of faiths with clear foreign connections sounds fishy. In a war, enemy should be clearly identified. If you have overlapping identities with your enemy, then your vision is clouded, and your actions confused. If aspects of EJ-ism or Islamism is clearly seen to be potentially acting against national interests, then there can be no hesitation in exploring their role. Whether the sensitive one is anti-Congress or not, is not of any consequence. Defending or protecting those connections from scrutiny plays into the hands of anti-national positions.

I think people here should not be asahmed to say, that as Indians, whoever is not with us is against us.

Brihaspati ji: There have been threads on Islamism and EvanJihadism that and gone through several versions. My point is this thread does not focus on analyzing those concepts.

No, I was simply saying that analysis of the connection of those two branches with respect to YSR's politics should not be immune from exploration because someone demands it or because it hurts sentiments.

I do not put too much wight on the apparent EJ'ism of people like YSR. I believe that it is just a modern version of traditional attempts at bypassing "caste/tribal" fractures for political dominance. Any alternative framework that does this can equally replace Ej or Islamism. However, the role and any change of tactic adopted by the Indian agents of foreign powers working under the disguise of any organized religion should be under the magnifying glass. It is not a historical event that was in the past only - and needs no continuous analysis or monitoring.

Specifically, if we can find any change of tactics with respect to YSR that should come up. Any future change of tactics in the succession wars, should come up. This should not be stopped on the excuse that EJ'ism has been already discussed and it is a "Jyoti Basu" like "closed chapter".

Good point.

No religion based discussion in a general way please.

Keep to the issue - YSR, his mission, demise and legacy.

Or it is - ready, steady....................lock!

That is the way how pennies might fall!

RayC, Locking has to be accompanied by other measures or else its in the interests of those who don't want the thread to continue to post religious discussions despite many requests from the moderators.

Sure. But YSR is not TTD. TTD is a hindu temple organization. YSR is CM of AP. He is not the trustee of some Church.

By the way, what is your POV on YSR diverting Mid Day meals to Christian NGOs?

YSR is one of the (very few) leaders in contemporary political India.

He has a vision and strategy.

He identified Lieutenants to carry out his vision. “Enabled” them to carry their (part) tasks with minimum intervention. Each Lieutenant has their own power base so they can carry their (smaller) vision with little help from the central-command. All the Lieutenants are interdependent in that they cannot threaten the “core” or compromise the overall vision. And the overall vision is carried on even when the leadership exits the scene.

He (YSR) also developed the ecosystem around his vision. This ecosystem (of Churches, businesses, NGOs, etc) is not part of the core-group. This ecosystem feeds and supports the leadership team as and when needed from outside.

He (YSR) is loyal to his vision, team, and ecosystem. He showed immense courage in enhancing the group’s interests and took personal risks. He also showed brilliant administration and management skills in developing a “managed leadership” paradigm for his followers.

I really wish he is on the nationalistic side, and it would have enhanced the Bharatiya cause.

I can think of a couple of persons who could be YSR’s alter-ego in the opposite camp. I sincerely hope they are as successful as YSR is.

That by itself should not be a problem. Unless one can show that the NGO is not secular (i.e. restrictive) in who it serves or is adding some religious component to the mid day meal program.

very good observations. But lets not label this a foreign powers. It is Indian politicians strategy only. They saw how BJP captured the power after Hindu awakening after Islamic appeasement by Congress. But BJP/NDA frittered away all the advantage by over confidence and forgetting masses. Why can't the RSS/VHP help the poor and downtrodden instead of participating and meddling with BJP governance. They have to guide the policies not directly interfere. YSR openly promoted conversions behind the screen while pushing welfare schemes heavily in the front. The welfare schemes are huge magnets to suck all the public money to his family coffers and CON party coffers. TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS... The Indian way..

Congress always had the record of organizing riots to push Muslims into their lap. With the help of conversions and Islamic fundamentalism, Sonia has a plan. They can promote conversions and when questioned, use the media to paint anyone as Hindu fundamentalist. After conversions, pit any minority against BJP using Modi card. Their plan is working. We have to see how his death will impact the conversion project in AP? I am sure Sonia wants to see if Jagan is capable enough to pull the same tricks his father or will he lose it all because of his greed?

Who are these couple of persons?

If you read carefully, the same post shows that these NGOs are making the kids say "yesu nama". I am reposting that quote




Added Later: Ramanaji, Did I do or say something wrong?

Astute observation!

News reports are coming out on the AIC strategy on YSRJ succession issue

• He is asked to pick a post, between a central (non-cabinet) ministry and deputy-CM and AP-congress-chief, so he can demonstrate that he gained required (?) experience.
• He can pick a CM of his choice in the interim

The very indication that YSRJ (and his coterie) is allowed to pick a CM as seat warmer, while he gains some experience (I do not understand what experience he will gain that he doesn’t have already) as a state/central minister, demonstrates that YSRJ faction is capable of managing a coup in Andhra Pradesh.

That shows YSR’s leadership, organizational skills.

http://news.rediff.com/interview/2009/s ... mantra.htm
'Welfare to saturation point was YSR's mantra'

This guy gives good perspective on truth and lies being propagated by YSR's supporters and CON party supporters. Kind of fact check...










Check the facts... Welfare state is not all hunky dory... The poor people are happy to get even 500 bucks. What they don't know is Govt. sanctioned 50,000.

>>>(I do not understand what experience he will gain that he doesn’t have already)
Experience of not making any major/glaring mistake. There are communities and families who run familial business for generations. The kids even below the age of 10 participate in every day operations. By their adult hood, they probably know more about their business and how to run it than what a domestic or foreign business school could teach them. Such is the case of sons/daughters of 'dynasty politicians'. One could say each pore on their skin would have been exposed to the art and science of politicking. So how involved was YSRJ in what YSR did? That will answer the question.

Yes, unless the leash is held tightly, there is a massive chance of this thread again being derailed from its intended purpose. That is also because a good % of posters lack the discipline to curb their conspiracy theory-fondness. When their predictions in the elections dhaage went kaput, instead of just accepting that they did nt ve a pulse of the voter population, some of them went on to manufacture wild goosechases, which can still be seen in the evm thread. If there is a darwin award for reverse-occam razor, sure brawman can award a ton on brf. Why should nt such nutcases be called NUTS, may be an insult to nuts?

^^^ I was thinking about how to allow such freedom of thought on this forum without stifling people. I am against the idea of banning people per se, but sure someone has to wield the stick. So I have an idea, my only positive contribution to brf, perhaps.

Create a thread called "alternate possibilities." Let those who have their pet theories (insufficiently backed up) take it there. Let them and those who are keen beat amongst themselves and arrive at an alternate possibility. Even insult politicians and GoI representatives as traitors and idiots with no idea of what complexity lies in running the affairs of this country. If there is sufficient proof, the idea can come mainstream. If it comes mainstream and is realized that there is not much proof, push it back again to the "alternate possibilities" thread. Anyone making a CT anywhere else or calls anyone names be warned once and then a ban ensues.

PS: You can take this idea and suitably adapt it for brf-ethos.

PPS: I thought more, but then this idea wont really work cos then more than half the threads need to be pushed into alternate possibilities. What to do, we are like this onlee. For once, I thought I had contributed constructively.

I agree.

But then, why allow someone to lock it since some posters may go overboard and allow such a thing to happen!

Caution is the best way to ensure a level playing field.

You are aware of what is my opinion during the discussions elsewhere - look at the bigger picture beyond the narrow divides of religion and what will that do to our sovereignty!

I too was thinking of starting CT thread where people can post what they want. Then I realized we already have two threads: Nukkad and Whine thread

I had originally started those to help confine the angst. But people take themselves too seriously and feel its infra dig to post their theories there. They can post their ideas there and if there is enough traction they can migrate to new threads.

What I do not like the barrage of posts advising the shutting down of threads. The Mods do know their stuff and have been quite diligient on the matter.

-RayC, read you loud an clear. Training showing thru in your concerns.

Stan: In the line of alternate possibilities..... I have felt for some time (a pet peeve) where we need to have a thread that will just list "predictions" of members. Every dhaaga has its share of predictions; and it will be good to know the percentage of hits BRF scores to the total number of predictions.

SwamyG garu,

If one studies how YSRJ established and ran Sakshi news paper, one will know his managerial/administrative skills. Him setting up SEZ's in Cuddapah district demonstrate his entrepreneurial skills. His ability to get an MP ticket and win with massive majority shows his electoral experience. Finally the support he gets from NGOs/MPs/MLAs and even the current AP ministers shows his political acumen and connections.

What else would he gain/demonstrate by being say as an Addl-minister in MMS govt?

^^^^
That is what I am saying too, if one has been involved very closely then all one needs is honing the existing skill set.

A couple of press reports:

1) Future of all king's men hangs in balance

Report is about local situation in Guntur dt. Similar things might be happening in other districts.

2) Congress in no hurry to name Andhra CM

What all this means is there will be power struggle and most likely KVPRR will split Andhra Congress if his protege is not accomodated. Dont know if they will win or not.