LCA News and Discussions

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Nirmal
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Nirmal »

On material research, In Holland they have discovered an new Aluminium Alloy which is much much lighter than composites or titanium but much much stronger in tensile strength. This can be the answer to Tejas Mk3 or AMCA. Besides in Boston, USA, they have discovered glass that is very light in weight but stronger than any known steel(Answer to Glass Cockpit and shield/Canopy?). Our R&D into material Science is indeed very poor and behind the current field discoveries and we desparately need to catch up.[/quote]
Operative word is invented, not discovered.[/quote]
You are absolutely correct. I should have used the word 'invented' instead of 'discovered'.
Saik: You are right as well it is graphene that was invented and it was in 2010 ; In fact both inventions were made in 2010. However, it is an undeniable fact that both materials will be of enormous use to our current and future projects.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by DavidD »

Graphene wasn't discovered or invented in 2010, Nobel prizes don't get handed out that fast. Graphene has been known to exist for about half a century now and it's been produced in labs for a long time as well. What Geim got the Nobel prize for was a simple and economic way of producing graphene, and he published his research on it back in 2004. Material science progresses very slowly, a Chinese guy was recently rewarded for his discovery(or invention if you wanna call it) of a material from his research some 30 years back.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

AW&ST's Neelam Matthews (not the most trustworthy of sources even earlier, but now certified rubbish) claims that the Tejas Mk2 is to feature canards, among other desperately gloomy stuff about the Tejas Mk1 and some incomprehensible things like how the IAF is looking for 20 of the Tejas Mk2s (when in fact, it was confirmed that it is actually 20 more Tejas Mk1s which were approved recently by the Cabinet upon reaching IOC). Later on confirms that the IAF is looking for 83 Tejas Mk2s, so where the

Looks like the effort to scuttle the Tejas is on in full swing through paid media. Earlier the complaint was that it wasn't going to reach IOC on time, and now when it has, its blatant lies such a clear mis-interpretation of the Tejas Mk2 as being a MiG-21++ !! Also, it was known since 2008, if not earlier, that the BVR missile and gun firing would be tested AFTER IOC was achieved on the way to FOC. To now claim that this indicates that the program is behind schedule on integration of guns and missiles and radar because they weren't on the IOC aircraft is nonsense. I wish one could write to AW&ST and point out just how many mistakes or mis-interpretations there are in the article.

the ACM said the Tejas Mk1 as it stands today is not a 4th gen fighter YET, but it will get there ! and now we have press reports twisting that statement into how the Tejas Mk2 will be a MiG-21++ ! It would be ridiculously funny if it weren't so frustrating to see such baseless reporting.

The only other worthwhile piece was the point about how HAL really needs to shape up and modernise. This MRCA competition may prove to be that turning point, but one can only hope so. But regarding robotics, I've seen most aircraft in the US assembled with a LOT of manpower and almost NIL robotics.

Guys, can anyone make a point to ask ADA during AI-2011 if the Tejas Mk2 is to feature canards ? This is the ONLY interesting point made here, but seeing how Ms Matthews adds 2 + 2 and gets 22, one never knows if this is pure fiction or fact.

AW&ST online edition
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by D Roy »

the ACM said the Tejas Mk1 as it stands today is not a 4th gen fighter YET
And now you can see the consequences. When we know that the world is full of paid hacks what is the point of even saying anything that can end up being horribly twisted.

I think Indians should temper their "announcement" honesty a little.

I am sorry but the Tejas IOC ceremony was one of the very worst government presentations of all time. and that statement was the crowning glory.
Last edited by D Roy on 20 Jan 2011 08:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Kartik wrote: Looks like the effort to scuttle the Tejas is on in full swing through paid media.
I saw an advertisment for a job in a newspaper. the ad was placed by the British High Commission fr people in Bangalore and Mumbai.
The requirements of the job are as follows:
The <name of post> will promote UK strengths in science and innovation, will ensure optimal collaboration in these areas between the UK and India and will report on science-related developments in India


The job does not even demand a qualification in science. No specified age limit. Clearly the job is to promote UK science in India and ensure collaboration. I am certain there are hundreds, if not thousands of Indians working for foreign governments and companies to promote their products. Among them are many retired Indian service officers too. Naturally. They are capable people who need a career too.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:
The <name of post> will promote UK strengths in science and innovation, will ensure optimal collaboration in these areas between the UK and India and will report on science-related developments in India


The job does not even demand a qualification in science. No specified age limit. Clearly the job is to promote UK science in India and ensure collaboration. I am certain there are hundreds, if not thousands of Indians working for foreign governments and companies to promote their products. Among them are many retired Indian service officers too. Naturally. They are capable people who need a career too.
This is another way of open source intelligence by a foreign country employing the native informer!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by venkat_r »

Lack of enthusiasm in the media for such an event and such an achievement like IOC of LCA is really mind boggling. This is nothing sort of a coup that in India a fighter aircraft of such sofistication has been developed. Add to that the comments of the people of the armed forces - boy do they deserve some kicks on their backside or what. Seems like LCA is never going to measure up to their expectations no matter what. - Indeed it is a miracle that LCA has come as far as it has.

And somehow the optimist in me still cannot agree that all the people in the media are paid hacks, but such lack of effort to write a good piece is simply not understood. May be the thinking goes like "how come these veggie eating, and living in my neighbourhood people can achieve anything this great -- there is something really not right and probably the rumour is right in saying that they have not done really that great especially when compared to the world stundards", so let me also cash in and say my piece and find myself on the 'smart' side by claiming that what they have achieved is not that great!" -- Again at the same time if HAL develops some doors for a foreign aircraft company or screw and nuts for European company, that is given as a great news, as may be that is at a believable level. Oh well, we are like this only i guess.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

I wish one could write to AW&ST and point out just how many mistakes or mis-interpretations there are in the article.
A magazine as prestigious as AWST should do its own background checks. A simple google session would have corrected much of what is written in that article.

It would be to the credit of the Indian government to rebut too. It should be their responsibility to do so.

Furthermore, it would have been good for all of us if the "analysts" in such articles do not hide behind namelessness. Why be an analyst at all if one does not want his/her name associated with controversies. Analysts and positions go hand in hand.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

And what is really galling about that particular article is the way that Neelam Matthews actually says that the Tejas is too late and that the "answer" is to shift to "another platform" (as if that will miraculously solve all of India's aeronautical industry problems)- if that isn't hinting at any one of the MRCA candidates then what is? AW&ST after all, is a respected mag that reports on issues and is not an OPINION PIECE mag.

And who is suggesting the Diehl BGT Iris-T as the alternative to the R-73 ? Has the IAF suggested it ? Has ADA suggested it ? Who the fu** is this un-named official close to the project that she quotes as if he's the authority on all things Tejas ?

I mean the PLAAF overnight is not a fully 5th gen force and the PAF isn't getting anything more sophisticated than a 3rd gen JF-17 right now along with small numbers of Block 50s, so how the heck did a couple of years suddenly make the Tejas too late ??

And if she does want to talk about capabilities, then more details need to be made available rather than half-baked one liners like "The Tejas offers supersonic performance but its full Mach 1.4 capability is yet to be achieved". What M 1.4 capability ? Is there any one given M 1.4 capability ? Could anyone be more vague than that ?!

Its undergone flutter tests at M 1.4 and we know that thanks to some ADA doc on flutter testing that had a chart. We know that its flown to M 1.4, so what the hell is this "M1.4 capability" that Neelam Matthews is referring to ? And even if there are some parameters left to be tested, no one is claiming that all of the Tejas Mk1's envelope or performance parameters and other necessary tests have been completed, after all the FOC is still nearly 2 years away- yet the spin put on is like ADA and DRDO is cheating the IAF and the nation by getting this IOC as some kind of eye-wash whereas in reality nothing substantial has been achieved..

We saw these type of articles many moons ago as well, by Ravi Verma where he basically claimed that a whole bunch of tests didn't really achieve anything and that a whole range of engineering issues were yet to be resolved. No one among the media, with the exception of Ananth Krishnan and sometimes Ajai SHukla, has even the faintest clue about the actual scale of the complexity behind this program considering how backward India's general aerospace and industrial R&D capabilities are in comparison to Western nations and even China, whom they are being compared to always. This constant fetish for pulling ourselves down (and looking for scandals or sensationalism where non exists) and proving to ourselves that we're only a 3rd world nation is really getting too churlish now. And as Admiral Arun Prakash said, it is indeed very churlish not to acknowledge these efforts and constantly berate them. Honestly, India will never be able to attract its best brains to military development thanks to the kind of bad publicity that the media gives it all the time.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by merlin »

Boss, don't get worked up so much on DDM. DDM would not know a brain even if handed one on a platter. Defence beat DDM are the absolute worst of the lot.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by manojks »

Kartik wrote:AW&ST's Neelam Matthews (not the most trustworthy of sources even earlier, but now certified rubbish) claims that the Tejas Mk2 is to feature canards, among other desperately gloomy stuff about the Tejas Mk1 and some incomprehensible things like how the IAF is looking for 20 of the Tejas Mk2s (when in fact, it was confirmed that it is actually 20 more Tejas Mk1s which were approved recently by the Cabinet upon reaching IOC). Later on confirms that the IAF is looking for 83 Tejas Mk2s, so where the

Looks like the effort to scuttle the Tejas is on in full swing through paid media. Earlier the complaint was that it wasn't going to reach IOC on time, and now when it has, its blatant lies such a clear mis-interpretation of the Tejas Mk2 as being a MiG-21++ !! Also, it was known since 2008, if not earlier, that the BVR missile and gun firing would be tested AFTER IOC was achieved on the way to FOC. To now claim that this indicates that the program is behind schedule on integration of guns and missiles and radar because they weren't on the IOC aircraft is nonsense. I wish one could write to AW&ST and point out just how many mistakes or mis-interpretations there are in the article.

the ACM said the Tejas Mk1 as it stands today is not a 4th gen fighter YET, but it will get there ! and now we have press reports twisting that statement into how the Tejas Mk2 will be a MiG-21++ ! It would be ridiculously funny if it weren't so frustrating to see such baseless reporting.

The only other worthwhile piece was the point about how HAL really needs to shape up and modernise. This MRCA competition may prove to be that turning point, but one can only hope so. But regarding robotics, I've seen most aircraft in the US assembled with a LOT of manpower and almost NIL robotics.

Guys, can anyone make a point to ask ADA during AI-2011 if the Tejas Mk2 is to feature canards ? This is the ONLY interesting point made here, but seeing how Ms Matthews adds 2 + 2 and gets 22, one never knows if this is pure fiction or fact.

AW&ST online edition
Has anyone written about this to the editor of magazine. If not, I will do that.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by tsarkar »

vina wrote:On the lack of applicability of civilian stuff to defense, I think those days are well and truly past.
Yes & No. Most military applications comes from civilian R&D. Similarly, the trend for COTS works great for air tankers/transports. The former will fly 500 km behind hostile territory and the later would be escorted. Having said that, one cannot manufacture a fighter from COTS components. The stresses and consequent tolerances are far higher. An airliner accelerates and decelerates only once in every flight, and its airframe life is designed keeping that operational usage in mind. If used for military purposes, it will quickly exhaust airframe life.
vina wrote:All in all, military construction and design is really not that different.
Then why P-8 based on the airliner has to undergo extensive redesign that took time from order (2004) to first flight (2009) to projected service (2013)? AFAIK, 737 is one of the world's most produced planes, and Boeing should be the #1 designer and manufacturer in the world, and 9 years from order to delivery? The design should have been ready during the procurement process itself. Your PoV, that a "normal" design process doesnt take time, with computers, et al, doesnt work that well in the real world, and based on all the pressures faced, engineers do what was described by Kartik.

I agree we cannot separate means form ends, but can use different means, if alternatives are available.

I'll try to find out the exact airframe manufacturing process presently used, the process was iterative from TD-PV-LSP-ISP.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by tsarkar »

manojks wrote:Has anyone written about this to the editor of magazine. If not, I will do that.
The editor Bill Sweetman is one of the most respected defence journalists. Unfortunately, even he was banned from reporting on the JSF by AWST management, when he wrote unpleasant things. The power of advertising revenues...
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

boeing even had to make FCS changes in 737 P8 to permit more violent manouvers otherwise locked out. for instance the highest bank angle was changed from 28' to 45' iirc.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by D Roy »

The editor Bill Sweetman is one of the most respected defence journalists.


Bill is the editor in chief of DTI. Not of AW&ST.

Velocci is currently heading AW & ST editorial.

Anyway Bill is very respected and I remember him mentioning at Aero India 2009 that India was a 'close aerospace power'.

He was actually gagged for a post on facebook!
Last edited by D Roy on 20 Jan 2011 12:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

Let's get things put into proper perspective.Firstly,the desi media was full of Tejas' "lift-off" so to speak.Along with proud happy feelings about the achievement was some sober talk about the shortcomings of Tejas MK-1.These are too well known and facts.Let's not try and sweep the under-powered engine,weight problems,foreign radar,etc. under the carpet please.MK-1 still has teething problems,despite MK-1's prolonged conception and late delivery.So the lost time hopefully will be shortened with the arrival asap of MK-2.Mk-2 will have some significant differences and improvements-perhaps as the good scribe said with canards.Who knows! However,IAF wallahs have stated on record that Tejas is a superior arcraft to the MIG-21 Bison,which acquitted itself very well in Indo-US exercises and this factor alone should be a welcoming and reassuring one.

Nevertheless,in the time taken for Tejas to fructify,the challenges to the IAF from regional threats has grown markedly.The very need for an MMRCA is indicative of the need for a more powerful and capable aircraft than Tejas,which was conceived as a cost-effective manner in which the large fleet of MIG-21s could be replaced.Pakistan was the foe in mind,not the dragon which has begun to roar and spout flames across the Himalayas,threatening to devour our land.The IAF's fleet strength must be no less than 900-1000 aircraft if we are to meet this threat.Tejas can very well replace some of the Fishbed squadrons,but it is true as reported that the need is stronger for more capable twin-engined,long-ranged aircraft needed to operate primarily from our western coastline and the Arabian Sea,the borders with Pakistan,Aksai Chin,Tibet,all the way upto and beyond our N-Eastern borders with China and then down into the Bay of Bengal,our A&N territories ,secondly extending into all regions the IOR and even into the S.China Sea.

From an IAF strength of about 40-50% to be Tejas as earlier envisaged,this will now drop to not more than 20% if Tejas production is also on time.Given the enormous challenges ahead for the IAF ,I cannot see the force possessing more than 20-25% of single-engined light fighters in the future.The number of unmanned aircraft in service will also progressively go up and more extensively used to prosecute sensitive targets both in wartime and peacetimne.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by D Roy »

Tejas is a superior arcraft to the MIG-21 Bison
Yes but it is carried as "Mig -21 ++" with the addendum " an aircraft designed in the fifties".

Nobody carried it as " Mig-21 BISON ++". And even if they did how many people understand what kind of capability accompanies the BISON upgrade, hain?

The perspective is clear. STOP making these statements in front of fools and enemies.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by abhik »

Kartik wrote:.....
the ACM said the Tejas Mk1 as it stands today is not a 4th gen fighter YET, but it will get there ! and now we have press reports twisting that statement into how the Tejas Mk2 will be a MiG-21++ ! It would be ridiculously funny if it weren't so frustrating to see such baseless reporting.
...
Just to clarify, I watched the whole IOC press conference and if am not wrong it was the ACM who made the ""Mig21++" comment.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gagan »

Now that the LCA has IOC, can it take part in a flying display at the 26 Jan R-Day parade?

This year after IOC or next year after FOC?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by D Roy »

oh you want more? here's more.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... 6d3caf.251

see this is how things get repeated
Accepting the LCA's operational clearance certificate last week, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik seemed less than enthused, noting that the aircraft was really a "Mig-21, plus, plus" and not the fourth generation fighter it was conceived as.
and
While acknowledging the LCA's troubled history, Arun Sharma, a former chief of naval staff and chairman of the National Maritime Foundation think-tank, said the project should still be applauded for overcoming major challenges.

Among them was the imposition of US-led sanctions in the wake of India's 1998 nuclear tests, which put crucial technologies out of reach and contributed to the delays.

"Only a handful of countries can claim the ability and competence to successfully bring a project of such complexity to fruition," Sharma said.
and
But like the LCA, the Arihant is still years and many arduous trials away from full induction into the armed forces.
so for anything Indian, trials become "arduous" and 2012 becomes "years away". Just like 2 failures out of 7 launches during the test phase become singularized to only failure. but if gora shit fails then " they are working on it, trying out new things".

DDM and VDM have a nice symbiotic relationship.

Unfortunately the only people who read these pages are
1. enemies looking for open source information.
2. Paid DDM and VDM hacks looking to become "aware" about dephence or deeeefense as the case might be. They have their brief along with the lifafa but little data.
3. Rakshaks and assorted other desi analysts who know all this anyway.
Last edited by D Roy on 20 Jan 2011 14:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

personally, i don't care if tejas is trash-talked and the bandar hyped up
any serious analyst will have seen what has gone into which platform
at time of 20-20 we will see who goes boom-boom
there is work to be done in many respects
first and foremost an overhaul of senior staff college curriculum for IAF afsars
1. tech strategy
2. media management
3. economics
etc.

if you notice, all unkil's senior afsars are double degree holders
the game has changed
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by D Roy »

its about national morale and retaining talent.

Given the nature of the defense sector the analyst will always be a teeeny tiny breed.

On the other hand in an interconnected world where every abdul gets a vote, opinion counts. And projection counts.

One stealthy looking fat ass fighter is enough to give others justification for a next generation baaamber.

Perception matters.

of course as far as the "don't care" is concerned that is exactly what has kept us going so far innit? the focus on internal strength and the 'satyameva jayate" attitude as a foil to the "videshi only pujyate" creed.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

Incremental capability.The later MIG-21s were upgraded/improved to Bison std. and now the balance MIG-21s being retired are being progressively replaced by Tejas superior to Bison std. and when MK-2 arrives,it will be an even further improvement on MK-1.This is what experts have been saying/advising for a long time for the LCA,to first get the first avatar of the aircraft operational and then keep on upgrading/improving the type.I honestly don't know what else the LCA's critics now want.A lot has happened in the last 5 years bringing the aircraft into reality.It is no longer a flying machine meant for air shows.To give one example of another foreign project exciting that country,Italy is all gung-ho about its Aermacchi M-346 AJT multi-role trainer aircraft.Surely the LCA is a far more ambitious and laudable achievement !

I suppose that what the critics now want is a war and as the little Gnat did in downing Paki Sabres for the LCA to shootdown an enemy aircraft!
I did warn in the MMRCA thread not too long ago that after the LCA MK-1's arrival and the last lap of the MMRCA deal in sight,come Aero-India and we would now see the "dirty tricks dept." of rival contenders working feverishly to promote their own wares and scuttle rivals chances through mud-slinging,etc.It looks like the game has begun.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

the mig21++ is a stealth project to our own baby raptoran. so relax, either way you have to silence yourself on this issue since someone here quoted the horse's mouth.

i know it hurts the wa$$oos but how do we counter if such projections comes from our own front yard? /chalta hai yar!
Last edited by SaiK on 20 Jan 2011 17:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

DDM is full of dhoti-half-falling-down types
(instead of dhoti-almost-fastened types)
its what sells papers
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Still the chief should have been more careful in how his remarks will be twisted. What was the need for the whine on that occassion? He could have expressed the same views elsewhere. Would be interesting to find out why he made that remark at that time.

A Chinese proverb says " When you point a finger, three are pointed at yourself!"

And I add "the thumb is heaven ward or towards God/Randomness!"
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^thats my point about poor staff college training for senior officers
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Only IN seems to be in good relationship with DRDO labs, and rest of the forces are having an attitude towards the lab products. Now, only if there is a staged demonstration by iterative development path, there would come a mature product in the future. If the user (forces) has issues with the labs, then the benefit of risk must be shared equal rather a sole organization. Nevertheless, I would give LABs:Forces::51:49 for the efforts towards self reliance. Hope there is a concentrated effort from all departments towards self reliance. Please note DPP. Good job there baboze.

Added to all these, are the super duper stealth men, who keep taking the blue pills. They can mesmerize ddm, any top shot or babu to get their programs become successful. Thanks for AKA for his efforts to at least stand for the labs, no matter all these difficulties we face... and hopefully this is not case (eyewash) types considering a longer run holistic thought -[example: 124 LCA Mk2, 20 odd aMCA, and 900odd firangi ones] - where the blue pill men keeps maximizing his net.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

abhik wrote:
Kartik wrote:.....
the ACM said the Tejas Mk1 as it stands today is not a 4th gen fighter YET, but it will get there ! and now we have press reports twisting that statement into how the Tejas Mk2 will be a MiG-21++ ! It would be ridiculously funny if it weren't so frustrating to see such baseless reporting.
...
Just to clarify, I watched the whole IOC press conference and if am not wrong it was the ACM who made the ""Mig21++" comment.
I know that. But he said that the Tejas Mk1 is a MiG-21++, not the Tejas Mk2, as Neelam Matthews wrongly reported.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

neelam also reported:-

even if mk2 gets the ge 414 engine with 100kN, the aircraft would have thrust/engine issues? what is that?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gurneesh »

Let's say, the Mig-21 reference in Mig-21++ are original ones and not Bison. Bison is said to be comparable to Early F-16's. So, it could also be called Mig-21++. This means LCA at IOC is as good as Bison (even without BVR) and thus early F-16's (blk 20 maybe). At FOC, then LCA should be Bison ++, which means comparable to Blk 50 F-16.

This is hardly surprising and was expected all along.

Now, if the ACM meant Bison++ (i doubt), then @ FOC LCA would be better than blk 50 F-16.

What more could one want from the countries first indigenous "Light" aircraft.

Moreover, once IAF starts flying it, IOC LCA even get a Mig-21+++ tag.



OT, but seeing the vast amounts of defence know-how and experience here, would it be possible for some guru's to invite some of the DDM to BR and teach them a thing or two (just for the sake of common man). It may be possible that they do not know about BR (or worst even about Internet).
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by nachiket »

Gurneesh wrote: OT, but seeing the vast amounts of defence know-how and experience here, would it be possible for some guru's to invite some of the DDM to BR and teach them a thing or two (just for the sake of common man). It may be possible that they do not know about BR (or worst even about Internet).
It would work, if the DDM's didn't have egos the size of Jupiter.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

even if mk2 gets the ge 414 engine with 100kN, the aircraft would have thrust/engine issues? what is that?
either our journalists are utterly incompetent or our scientists are. Cant Neelam Matthews understand that when a Gripen NG with the same 414 engine and greater weight got through the tech eval stage of the MMRCA then LCA with lesser weight and the 414 would be better than the gripen when it comes to TWR. Arent journos supposed to research an article and then get comments on their research from analysts(even anonymous ones)? Where is the research in this article ? When you call a product bad you have to have reasons for doing so. Reasons include, what was the end user looking for, what changed, what has been achieved, what is the growth potential of the product vis-a-vis that particular feature.

Her statements are so bland and full of sound than substance, for instance take the case of missile firing, she doesnt care to mention what is the iaf requirement and what has been achieved till date, what is ada's plan and finally if she wants she can give her opinion based on the above three things, no she doesnt do that.

And if ACM sir meant c:c++ = mig21:tejas then we should be happy :). When the ACM said ++ some journo should have nailed it, asking when the Su-30Ks were initially inducted were they called mig29+ because they never had any ground attack capability then
babbupandey
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by babbupandey »

I think we are reading too much between lines - I'm sure ACM wouldn't have given so much thought before calling it Mig21++, considering that he did not call it a 4th Gen Aircraft at that time. He was obviously unhappy about something (which I can't pinpoint).
The point is that even he considers it an improvement over the current inventory, now the Air Force would like to have the best of everything - they would like something even better than F-22, if they can; but ours is not a perfect world and we got to learn to deserve before we desire.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

suryag, if it is c:c++, then it is pathetic 3Gen coding with shoddy OO inheritance. mig21++ would be c, and tejas is definitely C#,java or perl. so .. sorry./OT.

q: like ramana points, why say it at this event? he could have said it after the event or at some other point., perhaps may be after shaking hands with all those test pilots with a tarmak photo.

the more we think, the more we conspire. it is his duty to explain, if that is legal enough to ask, since he said something in public.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by hnair »

babbupandey wrote:I'm sure ACM wouldn't have given so much thought before calling it Mig21++, considering that he did not call it a 4th Gen Aircraft at that time. He was obviously unhappy about something (which I can't pinpoint).
Hmm.. there are some problems here. Let me put it in a different way:
I, the voter of India, am his boss' boss. I am extremely unhappy at him for not "giving so much thought".

As I had expressed before here in BRF, it is not like supreme sacrifices by Indians is a one way street, for my fellow voters die during peace time so he can fight during wartime. And much as I am in distress over the peacetime deaths, I do not grudge him, for we live in a bad neighborhood and I look up to him without questions when he talks about his needs. But what I did not expect is for him to behave in an inauspicious manner on a very auspicious and spiritual day for me, the Indian voter - the coming of age of Indian's very own aviation design bureau, which in the olden days is like the pooja you do when the swordsmith hands over your new sword. A time of contemplation and thanksgiving to the Swordsmith and the Gods of War. Me, an Indian voter who has been watching valuable money being handed over to foreign manufacturers since decades out of necessity, did not like the way he behaved in that occasion.
In general since Mumbai attacks, I am disappointed. Is it too much to ask off our Chiefs to talk like General Paddy with his ""the perpetrator of that particular outrage shall be punished so severely that their continuation thereafter in any form of fray will be doubtful." and crack a few DDM skulls during a press conference? All I hear is "not ready, we just ate", "bathroom break", "Not fair! I already called **tsull** when the terrorists attacked!!" or the most common one "once our chaps are back from vendor, we are ready!!" type of claptrap.

c'mmon, gentlemen, we are dying by the hundreds to keep you all shiny and ready, how much more should I hear?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

suryag, if it is c:c++, then it is pathetic 3Gen coding with shoddy OO inheritance. mig21++ would be c, and tejas is definitely C#,java or perl. so .. sorry./OT.
Saik ji what i wanted to say was c++ in comparison with C allows a sw developer to easily handle projects which can accomplish 10X more complexity than what C could have supported. In the same vein, if tejas was termed a mig21++ with the intention that it can handle missions of Yx times complexity that a Mig21 we should all be happy. On another note C++ is still very pathbreaking interms of design organisation when compared with ADA/Pascal/C, though it has its set of problems.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

never mind.. my point was the reference "base-line" being the mig21, hence a ++ is always based on that, so it does not go well at all. there would be many who remain disappointed with so many hours of jingo feelings for LCA.

this mig21++ stab will go long way for many especially team LCA (imagine one of among them for this feeling). this has definitely cleared off all ddm sins as of now.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

HNair ji,

Well said. It is amazing that a man at the leadership position, as the CAS is, could act so rash at such an important function without even realizing the consequences, viz. morale & support for a vital program such as the LCA. As can be expected, his comments were used to trash the program & are being widely quoted by India's opponents who have never liked the LCA for it represents India coming of age in aeronautics. Cynics would note this was a deliberate attempt to downplay the program, and not off the spur comments. Which only shows the lack of teamwork from the brass end, when it comes to appreciating what own TP & others are doing, apart from civilian scientists to make this program successful.

The Pakistanis are getting the JF-17, which is literally lacking most critical attributes vis a vis current day fighters, but have you seen any of their senior personnel making such comments or downplaying it? I now feel that the likes of Shiv Aroor etc who routinely run down local capabilities with lies, innuendo and half baked statement, are often following a script happily charted out by folks who use the DDM shoulder for broadsides.

At such an important function, the CAS, thought it fit to bring up claims of a MiG-21++ : whatever that is supposed to mean, and the 4G business. The original Mirage 2000's were delivered to India without fully activated long range missile armament and it took time for systems to be added. It took many years for the Sukhoi bureau to mature the Su-30K into the Su-30 MKI, which the Indian citizen originally paid for, per IAF requirement. From public reports, we can make out that pretty much every item India has purchased has taken several years to mature.

The CAS's comments just shows that for every visionary leader, there are far too many focused on protecting "organizational interests" as versus national interests. National interest means that a unified face is projected outwards, while all stakeholders work behind the scenes to make things happen, as versus petty point scoring at such important events. It also says a lot that the one article from Arun Prakash which points out significance of LCA IOC, also attempts to cover both bases by saying "scorn is (justly) poured" towards the end, in other words, the groupthink is such that even senior officers have to be cautious in overt support

And no matter how vendors from abroad armtwist India, there is always somebody to "balance" that criticism. Such is not available however, for Indians & their efforts.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

In the past:
Pg 125 Tejas Story:
Before the FRRB - Flight Readiness Review Board

"I rang up ACM Tipnis and requested him to attend the final session"...
"He flew down and invited me to have dinner with him..when i met him there he said:"my advisers have told me not to attend the FRRB as it would indicate IAF support for the program. what do you suggest?"
I said, "sir, the LCA is being built only for the IAF and not for the enemy AF. Please come." He came for the meeting.

Similar advise by "advisers" this time also around as well, for the CAS probably, lest LCA IOC leads to any pressure to review procurement
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