Bharat Rakshak

we don't speak...we just use mind control to get things done.

we do write a lot though...c,c++,java,.NET,ADA,CUDA,Fortran,COBOL, you name it...we got it.

Wickberg, you're correct in the sense that they are Indian languages. We Indians are really blessed to have so many beautiful languages. And by the way it's Bengali and not Bangladeshin or something of that sort.

OT.
Sir, thank you for not going OT any more. Head to the newbie thread and we'll gladly answer you. There are several folks hoping to share a conversation or two with you, on the right thread.

Edited to add: Here's something to get us started.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4290&p=1015680#p1015680

Hi! Marten,

yes, I meant ADA.

1. There is no other similar "4th gen from the scratch" program within the same time period to compare to.

2. I do realize ADA/HAL/DRDO are usually given peanuts for R&D funding. But, if you consider all funds allocated for the Tejas program over the years and correct them for inflation, I am sure the final "real" cost would be much more than what is claimed in public. But again, it is like a squint eyed beauty among the blind if you look at EF Typhoon or JSF programs in comparison

3. I was thinking and calculating while I was typing. It was as if I was thinking aloud. I don't mind being wrong. Informed people will correct me, like you just did, and I'll learn from it

Yes! You guessed right I am Rahul Pogula (Rocky is my nickname). I was on this forum early last year, but a hectic life made it difficult for me to visit the site over the past few months. I forgot my ID and password and so created a new one. Any idea how I can recover my old ID?

By the way, if you remember my posts from last year, I have and still am a strong supporter of the Tejas program. I love that bird, after all is said and done.

Rahul,

I know the final amount includes the initial funds too, but as Rs. 500 crores only, and not re-evaluated to the actual market value of about Rs. 3,700 crores before adding it to the final "figure". The current "figure" being thrown around in the news is just ambiguous and faulty. The real cost of Tejas is much much more than the Rs. 3,300 crores or so that they claim it is. I am just trying to understand the "real" total cost of the Tejas program.

But again, sorry to sound like one of the anti-Tejas trolls. I really am not. I do realize that Tejas is still one of the most cost-effective programs ever if you consider how they jumped from 2nd generation to 4.5 generation in less than 20 years with so many external and internal hurdles.

^OT: write to the Admins. Report your own post and use the Contact the Mods option in the dropdown.

It might not be a good idea to spell out your name. Please do edit it out.
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btw, the total cost is precisely what you see. There is no hidden head under which funds are allocated. This is not a black project.

If anything, the project is severely under-funded. Try the funding figures for the Gripen program - Wickberg very helpfully provided them in a previous post. Compare the overall R&D cost, and then check if we are able to purchase an equivalent or worse aircraft that will meet IAF requirements for a light fighter at the cost. Remember the other programs would not have had to invest as much in R&D since they were NOT making this effort ground up, plus they never had sanctions imposed on them by supposed allies. At the end of it all, try contrasting the ability to scale up an indigenous design and the benefits that are accruing in Indian aviation.

You will realize the total amount spent is very very less in comparison to what we should have spent.

If you're hoping one of the better informed members will post on this topic, for our benefit; they already have. Read this thread from the start and you'll be better prepared to handle the approach to your questioning. Good luck .

I think I have to. Is ganja still legal? Or semi-legal in the tourist spots?

If any BRF meets up I will bring a can of surströmming that we can throw across the Pakistanian border.

Edit: While screaming in Bangladeshian; Eat this you motherf*ckers!"

OT: dude, that is funny, but why are you trying to get banned?

I don't get the drive o determine the 'true' cost of LCA? Is the true cost of NREGS etc pursued with so much zeal? The plane is ready. The costs include setting up infrastructure and resources. And even then its cheaper than any other fighter plane.

There are some bloody minded 'critics' for whatever reasons want to run it down. And its shame the are everywhere. If given the challenge they can't even design or select an aircraft standard screw fastener joint but can critique it. Is not just "dus number panna and tight karo!"

and for those who want the ture cost do you account for the time value of money and the excahnge rate and the lack of funding at crucial stages?

Eg. when funds are needed at X year and they are provided at X+N years they have to be much more to make up for the program delay.

How come there is little angst from IN officers, retired and serving about ATV than the IAF cohort about the LCA? Inst it due to commitment to a national priority goal? IOW, IAF cohort is glad to fly any plane even if tis crippled at any price so long as its not locally designed and made? And not content with pissing on its coming out parade they feed half baked mis truths to agenda driven media who run with the propaganda for TRPs.

We are still lucky that we are a country with lower costs in manufacturing, designing and r&d. But self-reliance is important for everyone. Are the critics telling us that we would not have been into this if not for low costs? Its our own even if the costs were not competitive. That our costs are low is a bonus. Look at the europeans. Everything that france or germany or sweden builds could be bought much cheaper elsewhere. Yet they build their own solutions and push their own expertise. Sure they are more advanced but they had their learning iterations early on so its all hunky dory for them. Soon we too would have it.

One must not look at sums spent on Tejas in isolation. What we spent on Tejas will fetch monetary rewards from exports in second or third product from now. First product is not a blockbuster.

As it is, we are increasingly becoming a country of kursi-tod, suit-dhari power-point heroes and code yuppies, a legacy of over-influence of Uncle and under-influence of Japan, Germany, Korea on our country. Aeronautics is one value-added manufacturing that holds promise wherein we could advance in manufacturing. We need to push this just like we did in automobiles.

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By now, the game is - Throw a chappal at Tejas and earn some baksheesh. After angoothachhap journos, profs very soon even the clerks retiring from IAF will be writing to us what's wrong with Tejas.

Trying to get banned? Heck no, why would I do that? If anything I have written break any rules please inform me. If I come out as hars it´s my Viking-genes, I´m honest and tell the truth. If that don´t suite some people, f*ck them....

Talking about costs. Consider the following.

1
How did Bangalore become the technological hub it is today? Because of some small investments into the defence sector. That is where the employees were recruited from initially.

2
Any dollar spend in India will generate another 4 dollars worth of business activity. A dollar spent abroad is a dollar lost to the economy. So even if the cost is 3 times in India, it is still worth the effort.

3
You cant compare the development time and costs of Gripen with LCA. Because the Gripen team had the benefit of experiance. To design the first fighter, on had to start from scratch. The initial startup costs must be acknowledged. The capability to produce defence equipment costs money. It does not come for free.


Let me be a bit critical as well.
We have seen how misrable the PSU,s have fared. From Scoters, hotels, Airlines etc. The defence labs are managed on similar lines. So failures should not come as a great surprise. To produce tease systems private sector must be involved. GOI should try to study how US and other countries are managing this.

Most importantly, that is told 100s of times that Gripen's initial design was not on total indigenous plan which Tejas and India took, that later realized it was too ambitious for the technology level we had then. But, the advantage of such a risky proposal gets steroid shots, say when sanctions happen or some one bans sales to India. Nothing to beat that Indian performance oomph when they are threatened of non performance.

I think russians should ban helping Kaveri like Israel has done on 2052., to get that driver in action. But it might not, if there is no national prestige projection on the GTRE project. As of now, it is all bashing and brainless harping.

Something about PSU's - The Banks in the PSU done well. What every you may say PSU Heavy Eng units done well. But the main thing is the politicos and their useless actions in runing PSU units. Pvt Companies are not so great and if any PSU can be professionally managed it can perform as good as if not better than any private unit. HAL/ADA performence in the case of LCA is not so bad is also an indication in the same direction and points to the dedication and commitment of the people involved.

Another thing to remember is that though Rs 500 cr was sanctioned initially, the whole amount wasn't invested in one go. It was slowly utilized over a period of years. So to take the year the project was sanctioned and to calculate the cost of the program based on the exchange rate at that time is not right. Even if one takes Rs 500 crores at the time the project was sanctioned, the cost of comparative programs in other countries even at that time would have indicated that 500cr was a fraction of other programs at the time.

If LCA Mk2 gets an AESA MMR, especially with its BVR weapons you all will definitely see bigger smiles. But, it may be a similar tussle as DRDO faced with Arjun vs T90. For LCA, it depends on the config. I am sure it is going to taken on the MRCA candidate especially on RCS and BVR.

I am not about to jump up and claim that PSUs are comparable to the Tatas, Birlas or Infosys. But like gutter cleaning they served a need that would be fulfilled by no one else. India has one of the most ancient capitalist systems in the world - starting with the distribution and sale of agricultural produce and the archetypal Marwari businessman. But they run profitable businesses.

India's public sector undertakings were set up like Intensive Care Units - a lot of money down the drain to keep something alive or breathe life into an almost dead system. Bangalore had ITI which manufactured all the telecom equipment in India's creaky old phone system and a BEL supporting electronics in India. These provided the seed manpower for the new India.

HAL was a private company - Walchand Hirachand (did someone say Marwari?) - which was taken over for WW2. For all its inefficiencies - that place has put India on the map as an aircraft design,manufacture and overhaul hub. There are some things that cannot be done profitably by private concerns. Small production runs of 100 or 150 sophisticated items custom built for a new aircraft that require an entire production line to be built.

Secondly there are some technologies that the private sector just did not have. Oh yes the private sector in the west had that tech. But the west is west, not India. Their history is different. No use asking why Tatas cannot do what McDonell Douglas did. They just did not do it. While we note the presence of small innovative companies that produced unique parts for the LCA we also need to recall that the DRDO is looking for private partners to produce thousand of little items for which they have the tech, but need a private company to set up a large scale manufacturing unit. For a private operator to do that it has to be profitable. For it to be profitable it he has to have volumes. For volumes to happen there should be exports. For exports there has to be some intergovernmental wheeling and dealing.

That is what all these "offsets" in defence purchases are all about. India agrees to buy fighter X from country Y. In exchange country Y sources Z percentage of components from a private Indian firm that will tie up with country Y. Is it any surprise that this will take time? The private sector in India, contrary to popular opinion just does not have what it takes to make say AESA, MMW seekers or single crystal blades. Either they don't have the tech, or the money, or existing production lines, or the incentive. If they did India would be producing and exporting all that stuff and making a profit.

I must put a personal twist to this. In the 1980s when I first went to the UK I was struck by how (in the UK) when you traveled miles and miles by train, the countryside scenery was frequently broken by industries. At that time in India this was never the case. India was hundreds of miles of unbroken agricultural land or just plain countryside. This is changing now. But that is what "industrialization" means.

Not to mention McDonell Douglas and others did with their govt and services buying from them and not running them down. Read about how Boeing built the early built the early bomber aircraft in the 1930s despite repeated crashes and that lead to the Flying Fortress. They had constant support from the Army Air Force because they envisaged such a weapon and weren't going to give up till they got one! The ones who claimed it costs too much were working for the other companies. Not the service.

ultimately those kind of quantum leaps seen in UK/US/Germany/USSR in defence industry and overall pace of doing things are driven by total war - when the very existence of a nation is at stake (or in the case of US - its main allies and trade markets in europe & its far eastern resource bases like australia). massive funding and big risks were taken as a matter of course, because no other option existed. with most men away fighting, women were trained and put to work assembling planes and tanks and building bombs. kids hardly in their teens went around with panzerfausts blowing up tanks, old men in their 70s took a rifle in one hand and a walking cane in another and went off to fight. english farmers were ready with lathis and pitchforks to defend their farms against hitlers legions. anyone with a boat bigger than dinghy volunteered to sail for dunkirk and bring back survivors.

india general population has been insulated from the ravages of enemy occupation and total war. the sneering people who post comments in media outlets about "why cannot india do what boeing does" and "what is use of tejas , its 30 years behind the curve" are a product of that environment.

^^(American companies) The support came within because of the desire to use home grown and developed platforms for security and defense. Wherever they felt brain crunch they paid larger salary to imported brains and hired them with lavish lifestyles. Where India can't afford to that. They have to depend on low salaried ragged dhoti shivering sdres to build fantastic systems that rival khan crafts, in the midst of the dorkiest possible media campaign against them aided by foreign vested interests to keep them subdued. India political system also aided such corruption to happen largely on the basis of capability not yet established, hence all that is foreign is simple superb, and all the ragged dhoties create, are inferior crap., hence they would never bump up the investments there.

Thanks to nehruvian IITs and sdre yuppies, who consistently fought many hurdles to improve and some ventured to khan nations to earn better, and some returned back to support home grown systems with total patriotism (and those are the people we are hurting we call Tejas a mig21++, three legged cheetah, etc..). Slowly ITvity improved, and salaries increased.

Sub system based approach brightened up, and MKI was successful. BTW, largely due to LCA projects and bi products in the MKI. It is a stage separation time or paradigm shift time, after the new DPP policy, the setup must gear up towards enhanced investments in local participation and development. It is a struggle covering decades of fight against corruption, continued capitalistic invasions, and subduing traitor media.

The revolution is slow, that it would be slow enough even for organic natural tendencies to overcome ill effects of the larger setup India is in, not just by its wishes and charter, but aided by many a low tendencies towards patriotism.

if there is one failure on part of GOI, its the lack of appreciation that salaries in critical sectors have to match the growing salaries in Pvt sector for similar skills and the need to create org and legislative solns to delink these sectors from rest of the vast GOI salaried system.

if these critical facilities can match the salary of pvt sector (or come near) the attrition problem and recruitment problem would be mostly resolved.

Also the colonized mind that agrees to the characterization that India has more cellphones than toilets but fails to point out that even the UK has more cellphones than toilets and India has more cellphones than all of western Europe combined.

A cellphone, like a hat is a personal item. A toilet is used by many and you do not need a 1:1 ratio of toilets. How many people pass through Heathrow in a day? 50,000? Heathrow does not have 50,000 toilets. There are more aircraft than toilets in Heathrow. Talk about poor bad prioritization and not thinking of human needs.

That's why I totally hate watching some media outlets like FoxNews. They talk about stupid shit with stupid people and pay morons to go on tirades that don't make sense and have yuppies go to racist marches in DC and call it grassroots movements. <exhale> I however cannot comment about news media in India. I do hope that India does not fall to the pressure of the Americanski's because as a Canadian I can say that in the 60's we made a beautiful craft called the Avro Arrow and the Americans squelched the project even though it was a far superior aircraft to any the Americans had created to that date.

LCA at Rs 3000-5000 cr developmental cost is worth the effort and cost. It is certainly less than the amount swindled by likes of CON leaders such as Kalmadi and Raja Rs 70000 cr /176000 cr. Many more programmes would have run without funding issues. So I don't think cost par-se is an issue here. Being indigenous, at least 80% of it, and weathering sanctions etc LCA project must be given a separate production line and confirmed orders by IAF in large numbers. Same should be the case with Arjun.

All this would have spin offs . Tech institutes would also develop expertise in R&D, run courses in required subjects, job opportunities would grow and combined with higher salaries, as some brfites have rightly advocated, more and more young people would gravitate towards such projects of national importance.Job creation would be fantastic.

Let us not forget one fact, whatever be the cost of development most of the monies remain within the country while contributing to GDP. In case of outright purchases monies fly out without much being invested here. Even with new DPP and offset clause I doubt very much that we would be able to withstand the pressure to waive off many requirements in national interest esp when huge sums are involved and lure of green card with corporate jobs thrown in for wards.

In the end after all the money spent, we did not get LCA alone. We got good facilities, knowledge, experiance and more improtantly confidence. LCA Mk1 is only the start and we can see many version of this efforts in the years and decades to come. The stupid press people will never get that and only interested in running down anything Indian.

The thing is that the IAF has started taking ownership of the LCA. That means that the MK 2 and the AMCA will be fully supported by the IAF as well.

It will be nice to be able to throw the Press people in the mariana trench. But being a democrazy we cant do that:((

Yes, we can control the media very easily. Think about the source of their information. If you can moderate that source, then you can moderate the ddm. That is the only handle we have.

But, the source is quite dis-organized for this grand scheme of patriotic setup. There are elements taking red pills and siphoning off the important time and money from the mainstream. DRDO media wing must be created. DPP policy must be implemented soon.

One can´t get pissed about the media. The journalists are only doing their job (being assholes) and by doing this, being investigating reporters, they have to criticize every project the government handles. The only way to "beat" them is to do the project well (and off course a good PR-department helps out). But really, you can´t never ever beat them. They are like cockroaches and when the last standing man has hall fallen to the ground due to a nuclear blast they will come crawling out of the ruins with their notebook and camera ready.

being assholes in not their job fyi. being responsible citizens is there job. please correct that notion. they are not doing their duty.

how have you measured the projects India has done thus far? can you make some detailed explanations given money, inputs, setup, men and material, and exact Indian condition any other nation would have done it better? Also please dont forget to substantiate your reasoning.

^^
Do not mix up job with duty. Their duty may be to behave like responsible citizens but that is not their job. At least most (other than an admirable few) do not view their jobs with such romantic notions. Practically speaking, the media is here not to be responsible. They are here to make money. Thus the only thing that can be done is to make sure that HAL has a good PR department and IAF shows a little more care while making public comments specially on projects of great National Importance.

Are you asking me to analyze every project India has ventured into since it became independent? Or since the Indian bronze age? That is something I can´t do Sir. I have studied 40 points of history but such a task is way to time consuming and probably beyond my abilities.

I´m gonna cook some Chicken Tikka Masala soon. That is Indian I think, perhaps it will clear my head and I can start writing mine Indian dossier.

W: perhaps, let me put it straight question. It was your point that India has to do their "projects well". now, your detailed answer how it may be done well is the question. For answering this, you may go any depth, but be substantive cause you are the one who feel we failed in the projects.

Gaur: I give up. /sorry we are out of sync here.

No, my point was that journalists all over the free world are the same. And the only way to prove them wrong is not to f*ck up when you are starting a project. But even if you don´t and the project is a success it does´nt matter, the journalists will still find a ways to criticize the government and the project.

As for Indian projects I am assuming you mean the LCA, or perhaps the Arjun? Dear Sir, I would´nt touch those subjects with a 10 feet pole. I think moderators of this forum are just itching for an excuse to ban me, I think I will stay clear from that. And the funny thing is, I love India, Hindus, the LCA and anything related to India. I love it so much I am sitting on the outside criticizing it and trying to tell how it can be improved. Without any 1st hand experience! Crazy? That´s me!

Have to disagree.
The PSU banks offered extremely poor service. People would have to stand in line outside for hours and beg for service. Only when the private banks entered the fray, did things improve, but slowly.
Companies like BHEL are no were in the league of international players. They have just imported second grade tech, and offer this to the market. They have not invented or patented any new tec. PSU,s were important to set up, to kick start the Industrial base.
But now has come the time to restructure the PSU,s. The management style is from the last century, and was made for technologically static, volume productive industry.

Some things that has to change.
*Uniform salary level > Performance based salary level (do not offer salary increase to all,)
*Job security > output driven job prospects (fire people if they are not required)
*Task driven management (management has to follow guidelines and precedures) > Preformance driven Management ( Pick your own team, reduce procedures) Heavy emphasis on final output. Let the intelligent, hardworking and goal driven rise fast.

Unions are of course going to go bananas, just let them. Ban subsidy to a unit, where strike cause financial damage.

Found the following article on indianexpress.com
ROUGH WEATHER FOR LCA

At a recent function at HAL in Bangalore, the PSU was displaying Tejas, its indigenously produced aircraft, and some other new projects to Defence Minister A K Antony. While the air show started off on a good note, as soon as the much-maligned Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) rolled on to the runway for take-off, it started raining, prompting HAL to call off the flying display. The LCA’s “failure” to take off in drizzle prompted an official to quip that if the enemy knew about this “weakness”, it would launch an attack on India only during the monsoons.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rough ... ca/380530/

Now i realize this article is over 2 years old but still begs the questions... Is this still true?? Because our neighbours are posting on youtube severely criticizing LCA in comparison to JF17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIUqCxpjRdc

Pali, it is well known in informed circles that the LCA is unable to fly at night, during the rainy season, and on sunny days at noontime because it is too bright. You should attempt to look at these things positively. We may not have designed an aircraft that is of any use, but at least it can fly. So now we know how to make a machine that can fly. Next step is to ensure that it can fly in the night, during the rainy season, and on bright sunny days (at noontime).

Well pali ji, how many flying displays have you seen performed during bad weather?? Is it possible to even see a grey aircraft in the sky when it is raining? As for the "official" who made that idiotic comment he needs a spiked boot up his musharraf.

And yes paki nincompoops badmouthing the LCA on youtube are to be taken seriously.

Nice one.

Our neighbours have a right to mock and we need to hang our heads in shame. In a straight vertical climb the JF-17 can touch an altitude of 100,000 feet and the only Raptor to have been shot down was downed by a JF-17.


Here are the relevant clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo9ew6bAjLs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXinpChdW4M

Pali, my first question would be:

- You read the above information, you know its two years old, what have you done on your part to use good ol' google kaka or go through this very lca thread in order to answer your queries? Btw there are quite a few very detailed pieces of info posted by Chacko, the doc, Karthik and others including info from AM Rajkumar's book on the LCA.

- In regards to the vid I am going to use a "rabid dog" analogy. Say in your gully there is a rabid dog that keeps barking at every one that passes by. Now as a human we cant bark back to the dog so IMHO we let it bark and continue our way the dog will eventually just shut up and die its natural infected death . By posting this vid here we are giving credibility to the nonsense comparison between a Chinese 3rd generation fighter that has been painted green by porkis and the LCA. Let us DYOR and find the answers to our own questions they are right here.

FYI I have been to the avalon airshow in melbourne-australia 3 times, and in the last one in 09 they had to postpone the flying display due to rain. Mind you the jets that were gonna take part in the display were not SDRE Tejas and their ilk but TFTA Khan fighters like the Super Hornet, Eagle, etc...food for thought!

Disclaimer: The above post is not meant to disrespect/offend anyone and if I am doing so then apologies in advance.