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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2011 14:13 
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oh you want more? here's more.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... 6d3caf.251

see this is how things get repeated
Quote:
Accepting the LCA's operational clearance certificate last week, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik seemed less than enthused, noting that the aircraft was really a "Mig-21, plus, plus" and not the fourth generation fighter it was conceived as.


and

Quote:
While acknowledging the LCA's troubled history, Arun Sharma, a former chief of naval staff and chairman of the National Maritime Foundation think-tank, said the project should still be applauded for overcoming major challenges.

Among them was the imposition of US-led sanctions in the wake of India's 1998 nuclear tests, which put crucial technologies out of reach and contributed to the delays.

"Only a handful of countries can claim the ability and competence to successfully bring a project of such complexity to fruition," Sharma said.


and
Quote:
But like the LCA, the Arihant is still years and many arduous trials away from full induction into the armed forces.


so for anything Indian, trials become "arduous" and 2012 becomes "years away". Just like 2 failures out of 7 launches during the test phase become singularized to only failure. but if gora shit fails then " they are working on it, trying out new things".

DDM and VDM have a nice symbiotic relationship.

Unfortunately the only people who read these pages are
1. enemies looking for open source information.
2. Paid DDM and VDM hacks looking to become "aware" about dephence or deeeefense as the case might be. They have their brief along with the lifafa but little data.
3. Rakshaks and assorted other desi analysts who know all this anyway.


Last edited by D Roy on 20 Jan 2011 14:22, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2011 14:21 
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personally, i don't care if tejas is trash-talked and the bandar hyped up
any serious analyst will have seen what has gone into which platform
at time of 20-20 we will see who goes boom-boom
there is work to be done in many respects
first and foremost an overhaul of senior staff college curriculum for IAF afsars
1. tech strategy
2. media management
3. economics
etc.

if you notice, all unkil's senior afsars are double degree holders
the game has changed


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2011 14:26 
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its about national morale and retaining talent.

Given the nature of the defense sector the analyst will always be a teeeny tiny breed.

On the other hand in an interconnected world where every abdul gets a vote, opinion counts. And projection counts.

One stealthy looking fat ass fighter is enough to give others justification for a next generation baaamber.

Perception matters.

of course as far as the "don't care" is concerned that is exactly what has kept us going so far innit? the focus on internal strength and the 'satyameva jayate" attitude as a foil to the "videshi only pujyate" creed.


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2011 16:39 
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Incremental capability.The later MIG-21s were upgraded/improved to Bison std. and now the balance MIG-21s being retired are being progressively replaced by Tejas superior to Bison std. and when MK-2 arrives,it will be an even further improvement on MK-1.This is what experts have been saying/advising for a long time for the LCA,to first get the first avatar of the aircraft operational and then keep on upgrading/improving the type.I honestly don't know what else the LCA's critics now want.A lot has happened in the last 5 years bringing the aircraft into reality.It is no longer a flying machine meant for air shows.To give one example of another foreign project exciting that country,Italy is all gung-ho about its Aermacchi M-346 AJT multi-role trainer aircraft.Surely the LCA is a far more ambitious and laudable achievement !

I suppose that what the critics now want is a war and as the little Gnat did in downing Paki Sabres for the LCA to shootdown an enemy aircraft!
I did warn in the MMRCA thread not too long ago that after the LCA MK-1's arrival and the last lap of the MMRCA deal in sight,come Aero-India and we would now see the "dirty tricks dept." of rival contenders working feverishly to promote their own wares and scuttle rivals chances through mud-slinging,etc.It looks like the game has begun.


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2011 17:10 
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the mig21++ is a stealth project to our own baby raptoran. so relax, either way you have to silence yourself on this issue since someone here quoted the horse's mouth.

i know it hurts the wa$$oos but how do we counter if such projections comes from our own front yard? /chalta hai yar!


Last edited by SaiK on 20 Jan 2011 17:13, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2011 17:11 
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DDM is full of dhoti-half-falling-down types
(instead of dhoti-almost-fastened types)
its what sells papers


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2011 21:36 
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Still the chief should have been more careful in how his remarks will be twisted. What was the need for the whine on that occassion? He could have expressed the same views elsewhere. Would be interesting to find out why he made that remark at that time.

A Chinese proverb says " When you point a finger, three are pointed at yourself!"

And I add "the thumb is heaven ward or towards God/Randomness!"


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2011 22:01 
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^^^thats my point about poor staff college training for senior officers


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2011 23:15 
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Only IN seems to be in good relationship with DRDO labs, and rest of the forces are having an attitude towards the lab products. Now, only if there is a staged demonstration by iterative development path, there would come a mature product in the future. If the user (forces) has issues with the labs, then the benefit of risk must be shared equal rather a sole organization. Nevertheless, I would give LABs:Forces::51:49 for the efforts towards self reliance. Hope there is a concentrated effort from all departments towards self reliance. Please note DPP. Good job there baboze.

Added to all these, are the super duper stealth men, who keep taking the blue pills. They can mesmerize ddm, any top shot or babu to get their programs become successful. Thanks for AKA for his efforts to at least stand for the labs, no matter all these difficulties we face... and hopefully this is not case (eyewash) types considering a longer run holistic thought -[example: 124 LCA Mk2, 20 odd aMCA, and 900odd firangi ones] - where the blue pill men keeps maximizing his net.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 00:07 
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abhik wrote:
Kartik wrote:
.....
the ACM said the Tejas Mk1 as it stands today is not a 4th gen fighter YET, but it will get there ! and now we have press reports twisting that statement into how the Tejas Mk2 will be a MiG-21++ ! It would be ridiculously funny if it weren't so frustrating to see such baseless reporting.
...

Just to clarify, I watched the whole IOC press conference and if am not wrong it was the ACM who made the ""Mig21++" comment.


I know that. But he said that the Tejas Mk1 is a MiG-21++, not the Tejas Mk2, as Neelam Matthews wrongly reported.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 00:23 
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neelam also reported:-

even if mk2 gets the ge 414 engine with 100kN, the aircraft would have thrust/engine issues? what is that?


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 01:00 
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Let's say, the Mig-21 reference in Mig-21++ are original ones and not Bison. Bison is said to be comparable to Early F-16's. So, it could also be called Mig-21++. This means LCA at IOC is as good as Bison (even without BVR) and thus early F-16's (blk 20 maybe). At FOC, then LCA should be Bison ++, which means comparable to Blk 50 F-16.

This is hardly surprising and was expected all along.

Now, if the ACM meant Bison++ (i doubt), then @ FOC LCA would be better than blk 50 F-16.

What more could one want from the countries first indigenous "Light" aircraft.

Moreover, once IAF starts flying it, IOC LCA even get a Mig-21+++ tag.



OT, but seeing the vast amounts of defence know-how and experience here, would it be possible for some guru's to invite some of the DDM to BR and teach them a thing or two (just for the sake of common man). It may be possible that they do not know about BR (or worst even about Internet).


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 01:04 
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Gurneesh wrote:
OT, but seeing the vast amounts of defence know-how and experience here, would it be possible for some guru's to invite some of the DDM to BR and teach them a thing or two (just for the sake of common man). It may be possible that they do not know about BR (or worst even about Internet).

It would work, if the DDM's didn't have egos the size of Jupiter.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 01:15 
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Quote:
even if mk2 gets the ge 414 engine with 100kN, the aircraft would have thrust/engine issues? what is that?


either our journalists are utterly incompetent or our scientists are. Cant Neelam Matthews understand that when a Gripen NG with the same 414 engine and greater weight got through the tech eval stage of the MMRCA then LCA with lesser weight and the 414 would be better than the gripen when it comes to TWR. Arent journos supposed to research an article and then get comments on their research from analysts(even anonymous ones)? Where is the research in this article ? When you call a product bad you have to have reasons for doing so. Reasons include, what was the end user looking for, what changed, what has been achieved, what is the growth potential of the product vis-a-vis that particular feature.

Her statements are so bland and full of sound than substance, for instance take the case of missile firing, she doesnt care to mention what is the iaf requirement and what has been achieved till date, what is ada's plan and finally if she wants she can give her opinion based on the above three things, no she doesnt do that.

And if ACM sir meant c:c++ = mig21:tejas then we should be happy :). When the ACM said ++ some journo should have nailed it, asking when the Su-30Ks were initially inducted were they called mig29+ because they never had any ground attack capability then


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 01:28 
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I think we are reading too much between lines - I'm sure ACM wouldn't have given so much thought before calling it Mig21++, considering that he did not call it a 4th Gen Aircraft at that time. He was obviously unhappy about something (which I can't pinpoint).
The point is that even he considers it an improvement over the current inventory, now the Air Force would like to have the best of everything - they would like something even better than F-22, if they can; but ours is not a perfect world and we got to learn to deserve before we desire.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 02:01 
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suryag, if it is c:c++, then it is pathetic 3Gen coding with shoddy OO inheritance. mig21++ would be c, and tejas is definitely C#,java or perl. so .. sorry./OT.

q: like ramana points, why say it at this event? he could have said it after the event or at some other point., perhaps may be after shaking hands with all those test pilots with a tarmak photo.

the more we think, the more we conspire. it is his duty to explain, if that is legal enough to ask, since he said something in public.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 02:08 
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babbupandey wrote:
I'm sure ACM wouldn't have given so much thought before calling it Mig21++, considering that he did not call it a 4th Gen Aircraft at that time. He was obviously unhappy about something (which I can't pinpoint).


Hmm.. there are some problems here. Let me put it in a different way:

Quote:
I, the voter of India, am his boss' boss. I am extremely unhappy at him for not "giving so much thought".

As I had expressed before here in BRF, it is not like supreme sacrifices by Indians is a one way street, for my fellow voters die during peace time so he can fight during wartime. And much as I am in distress over the peacetime deaths, I do not grudge him, for we live in a bad neighborhood and I look up to him without questions when he talks about his needs. But what I did not expect is for him to behave in an inauspicious manner on a very auspicious and spiritual day for me, the Indian voter - the coming of age of Indian's very own aviation design bureau, which in the olden days is like the pooja you do when the swordsmith hands over your new sword. A time of contemplation and thanksgiving to the Swordsmith and the Gods of War. Me, an Indian voter who has been watching valuable money being handed over to foreign manufacturers since decades out of necessity, did not like the way he behaved in that occasion.


In general since Mumbai attacks, I am disappointed. Is it too much to ask off our Chiefs to talk like General Paddy with his ""the perpetrator of that particular outrage shall be punished so severely that their continuation thereafter in any form of fray will be doubtful." and crack a few DDM skulls during a press conference? All I hear is "not ready, we just ate", "bathroom break", "Not fair! I already called **tsull** when the terrorists attacked!!" or the most common one "once our chaps are back from vendor, we are ready!!" type of claptrap.

c'mmon, gentlemen, we are dying by the hundreds to keep you all shiny and ready, how much more should I hear?


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 02:20 
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Quote:
suryag, if it is c:c++, then it is pathetic 3Gen coding with shoddy OO inheritance. mig21++ would be c, and tejas is definitely C#,java or perl. so .. sorry./OT.
Saik ji what i wanted to say was c++ in comparison with C allows a sw developer to easily handle projects which can accomplish 10X more complexity than what C could have supported. In the same vein, if tejas was termed a mig21++ with the intention that it can handle missions of Yx times complexity that a Mig21 we should all be happy. On another note C++ is still very pathbreaking interms of design organisation when compared with ADA/Pascal/C, though it has its set of problems.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 02:29 
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never mind.. my point was the reference "base-line" being the mig21, hence a ++ is always based on that, so it does not go well at all. there would be many who remain disappointed with so many hours of jingo feelings for LCA.

this mig21++ stab will go long way for many especially team LCA (imagine one of among them for this feeling). this has definitely cleared off all ddm sins as of now.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 02:59 
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HNair ji,

Well said. It is amazing that a man at the leadership position, as the CAS is, could act so rash at such an important function without even realizing the consequences, viz. morale & support for a vital program such as the LCA. As can be expected, his comments were used to trash the program & are being widely quoted by India's opponents who have never liked the LCA for it represents India coming of age in aeronautics. Cynics would note this was a deliberate attempt to downplay the program, and not off the spur comments. Which only shows the lack of teamwork from the brass end, when it comes to appreciating what own TP & others are doing, apart from civilian scientists to make this program successful.

The Pakistanis are getting the JF-17, which is literally lacking most critical attributes vis a vis current day fighters, but have you seen any of their senior personnel making such comments or downplaying it? I now feel that the likes of Shiv Aroor etc who routinely run down local capabilities with lies, innuendo and half baked statement, are often following a script happily charted out by folks who use the DDM shoulder for broadsides.

At such an important function, the CAS, thought it fit to bring up claims of a MiG-21++ : whatever that is supposed to mean, and the 4G business. The original Mirage 2000's were delivered to India without fully activated long range missile armament and it took time for systems to be added. It took many years for the Sukhoi bureau to mature the Su-30K into the Su-30 MKI, which the Indian citizen originally paid for, per IAF requirement. From public reports, we can make out that pretty much every item India has purchased has taken several years to mature.

The CAS's comments just shows that for every visionary leader, there are far too many focused on protecting "organizational interests" as versus national interests. National interest means that a unified face is projected outwards, while all stakeholders work behind the scenes to make things happen, as versus petty point scoring at such important events. It also says a lot that the one article from Arun Prakash which points out significance of LCA IOC, also attempts to cover both bases by saying "scorn is (justly) poured" towards the end, in other words, the groupthink is such that even senior officers have to be cautious in overt support

And no matter how vendors from abroad armtwist India, there is always somebody to "balance" that criticism. Such is not available however, for Indians & their efforts.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 03:17 
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In the past:
Pg 125 Tejas Story:
Before the FRRB - Flight Readiness Review Board

"I rang up ACM Tipnis and requested him to attend the final session"...
"He flew down and invited me to have dinner with him..when i met him there he said:"my advisers have told me not to attend the FRRB as it would indicate IAF support for the program. what do you suggest?"
I said, "sir, the LCA is being built only for the IAF and not for the enemy AF. Please come." He came for the meeting.

Similar advise by "advisers" this time also around as well, for the CAS probably, lest LCA IOC leads to any pressure to review procurement


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 03:20 
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WOW!!!


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 03:32 
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adversarial indeed.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 04:39 
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The above is a recollection by AM P Rajkumar, just before the final FRRB which cleared TD-1 for flight, in 2000. After that meeting, where that momentous decision was taken, he had to justify his decision separately to the then CAS.
Also mentions that his posting in Bangalore was not given due importance.

"There was an irrational view at Air HQ that I was having a good time at Bangalore, which happened to be my home town. The fact that I was working on a project which was to deliver a fourth generation fighter for the IAF inventory and crucial for the long-term interest of the aeronautical industry in India, was conveniently forgotten".

Should clear up all the claims of Tejas being 3 Generation.

Then writes:
"Back I went to ACM Tipnis and and said it was upto him to address my very genuine grievance. With great reluctance, he promised to do something".

Thereafter, he had to literally threaten legal action for AHQ to take him seriously, and MOD then supported him with the PM (ABV) invoking a special rule to promote him first and paperwork to follow later.

Also mentions that asked for Kirti Chakra for Shri Kothiyal for his test flight on justifiable grounds - flying a FBW aircraft for the first flight, but was denied by then CAS. Met the CAS, and repeatedly pressed for recognition & finally Kothiyal got it over the much lesser AVSM. Also says about 26 January 2001:

"I scanned the morning papers to see which award Dr Kota had been conferred with. I was expecting him to be conferred with the Padma Bhushan. To my utter horror, I found he had not been given any recognition for the stupendous effort over a period of fifteen years. This was a pity, because like justice, recognition delayed was recognition denied."

Also, please note the reports of the LCA being almost cancelled because a certain important and influential person was against it. This supports the view presented in papers how cautious and risk averse the Team LCA had to be, as a few setbacks would have cancelled the program.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/bengalur ... k-hole-073

Quote:
Weeks before the IAF inducts India’s indigenous light combat aircraft, it has come to light that Congress leader Suresh Kalmadi, who quit as secretary of the Congress parliamentary party in the aftermath of allegations of financial irregularities in the recent Commonwealth Games, was ironically concerned about public funding for the ‘Made in India’ light combat aircraft ‘Tejas.’

He told defence scientists to scrap the project well before the jet had even made its maiden flight. The scientists, according to former science adviser to the defence minister V.S. Arunachalam, held on despite threats by Mr Kalmadi that he would ask the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) to probe the accounts of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the nodal organisation for the project. He did not stop with such threats, but moved a private member resolution in Parliament asking the Union government to scrap the project.

Mr Kalmadi’s moves to ground the project when it was in its infancy in 1980s was fuelled by his belief that it was wasteful.


As a sidenote, Mr Kalmadi is ex-IAF. Whether that was a factor, or he genuinely felt what he did, we do not know. Of late, Mr Kalmadi has been in the news for the CWG and the controversy over the use of public funding;

The book also mentions how many IAF officers supported the Tejas & came up with workarounds, suggestions, spent resources & assisted Team LCA. Even the CAS on one occasion circa 2000, managed to get the LCA team a Mirage 2000 trainer.

But clearly, there are also people who were against/not enthusiastic for the project, and were quite political behind the scenes & there has been significant adversity against the Team. I also find Shri Antonys remarks about how many were against the project, yet it succeeded and the developers (PS Subramanyam) noting the same, significant.


Last edited by Karan M on 21 Jan 2011 05:03, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 04:46 
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WOW!

What will happen if Aaj Tak and India TV got a hint of this kind of news. For once, I won't be complaining about their 8 day "analysis" of such news.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 04:55 
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they won't, cause "their advisers" have already said not to publish, even if people talk about it openly. the k word is becoming dirtier and dirtier.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 04:58 
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I also find the 3G versus 4G comments to be given credence, thanks to the fact we have cretins masquerading as journalists in India. Anybody otherwise should otherwise see the reality:

Bison: 3G upgraded -so called 3G++ versus LCA

Full Glass Cockpit: No (1HUD+1MFD+limited HOTAS+HMCS)
LCA: Yes (3MFD, HUD, full HOTAS, Helmet Mounted Display - better than cueing sight)

Radar: Bison - Kopyo (range limited to 57Km, limited scan angles thanks to Bison nose)
LCA: Elta 2032 & LCA Hybrid MMR - both with ranges >100 Km, wide variety of modes, scan angles of the order of 60 degrees

EW suite: Bison - Tarang MK1, external jammer which if carried, reduces number of pylons (already limited to 5, by 1)
LCA: Integrated internal suite, with both RWR & jamming capability

Propulsion: LCA - modern more reliable powerplant with FADEC
Bison: Older gen powerplant, no FADEC, issues with reliability and maintenance

LCA: FBW for carefree handling and pilot friendlyness; has FBW dictate maneuvering limits with loads, stores, and other criteria preventing errors
Bison: No

LCA: Special measures for reduced signature in design itself - canopy, airframe, use of specific materials, Y shaped intakes displaced for signature reduction
Bison: Original MiG-21 design, only RAM possible, comes with weight penalty, important as weapons add radar signature

LCA: Able to carry dedicated LDP/Special store on dedicated pylon
Bison: No

LCA: Has 7+1 pylons per design
Bison: 4+1, limiting flexibility

Payload: Edge to LCA even using 6400 Kg empty aircraft weight (~900 kg over original 5.5T) and 10.5T, empty weight with 2R73E missiles included. Has payload of 2.5T for 5 remaining pylons

Growth potential: Edge to LCA - items such as Oxygen generating equipment being included, plus In Flight Refuelling

Stores flexibility: LCA has 1760 standard avionics fit allowing for western, Indian, Russian weapons
Bison: No

Avionics: LCA has provision for datalink, has modern avionics, computers etc
Bison: Limited upgrade, few of these are included in current aircraft & it does not have a datalink/no mention of it to get the same

Systems: LCA designed around maintenance friendliness with simulators for crew
Bison: Limited by original MiG-21 design, only part task training

Frankly, anybody sensible spending time on actual technology comparison would have clarity. But in India, journalism is the one field with apparently little to no expectation of competence


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 05:06 
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Quote:
But in India, journalism is the one field with apparently little to no expectation of competence

All that is needed is some lifted adjectives, some foreign brochures and some fantasy(to pass of as quoting a "knowledgeable source")
Now that IOC is done ADA should come up with a more dedicated PR wing or employ some good ad agency to showcase tejas better.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 05:18 
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Karan M wrote:
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/bengalur ... k-hole-073

Quote:
Weeks before the IAF inducts India’s indigenous light combat aircraft, it has come to light that Congress leader Suresh Kalmadi, who quit as secretary of the Congress parliamentary party in the aftermath of allegations of financial irregularities in the recent Commonwealth Games, was ironically concerned about public funding for the ‘Made in India’ light combat aircraft ‘Tejas.’

He told defence scientists to scrap the project well before the jet had even made its maiden flight. The scientists, according to former science adviser to the defence minister V.S. Arunachalam, held on despite threats by Mr Kalmadi that he would ask the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) to probe the accounts of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the nodal organisation for the project. He did not stop with such threats, but moved a private member resolution in Parliament asking the Union government to scrap the project.

Mr Kalmadi’s moves to ground the project when it was in its infancy in 1980s was fuelled by his belief that it was wasteful.




A man like Kalmadi concerned about waste of public money? :lol: I don't buy it. Far more likely that he was paid to get the project cancelled.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 05:25 
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Karan M wrote:
I also find the 3G versus 4G comments to be given credence, thanks to the fact we have cretins masquerading as journalists in India. Anybody otherwise should otherwise see the reality:

...

LCA: FBW for carefree handling and pilot friendlyness; has FBW dictate maneuvering limits with loads, stores, and other criteria preventing errors
Bison: No

...


It's probably important to distinguish the FBW being a quadruplex fly-by-wire with no hydraulic backup controls. Other 3rd Gen planes had simpler FBW and a basic hydro-mechanical (analog electrical/mechanical/hydraulic) backup system.

The other aspect of 4th Gen is the extensive use of advanced materials, such as composites, being used on the LCA.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 05:26 
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And his IAF background adds credibility. Remember payments for questions in parliament scandal?


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 05:39 
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srai wrote:

It's probably important to distinguish the FBW being a quadruplex fly-by-wire with no hydraulic backup controls. Other 3rd Gen planes had simpler FBW and a basic hydro-mechanical (analog electrical/mechanical/hydraulic) backup system.

The other aspect of 4th Gen is the extensive use of advanced materials, such as composites, being used on the LCA.


Also 4th gen is the use of MMR which can be used in an air to air and air to ground mode - making an aircraft "swing role" or "multi role" unlike the use of "air interception radar" (early MiG 21) and just laser ranger for attack role (early Jaguar and MiG 27)

4th gen is about avionics.

5th gen is about stealth, sensor fusion and new materials.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 06:47 
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Location: Behind Enemy Lines
Image
Tejas, India's first indigenous combat jet, is displayed during Republic Day parade rehearsals in New Delhi.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 07:09 
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Notice that the trailer is from Bangalore - does it mean that Tejas was not flown from Bangalore to Delhi but brought on a trailer?


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 07:24 
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Its a Mock of the Trainer and not the real jet :D


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 07:30 
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Please excuse my untrained eyes :D


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 08:26 
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Karan M wrote:
I also find the 3G versus 4G comments to be given credence, thanks to the fact we have cretins masquerading as journalists in India. Anybody otherwise should otherwise see the reality:

Bison: 3G upgraded -so called 3G++ versus LCA

Full Glass Cockpit: No (1HUD+1MFD+limited HOTAS+HMCS)
LCA: Yes (3MFD, HUD, full HOTAS, Helmet Mounted Display - better than cueing sight)

Radar: Bison - Kopyo (range limited to 57Km, limited scan angles thanks to Bison nose)
LCA: Elta 2032 & LCA Hybrid MMR - both with ranges >100 Km, wide variety of modes, scan angles of the order of 60 degrees

EW suite: Bison - Tarang MK1, external jammer which if carried, reduces number of pylons (already limited to 5, by 1)
LCA: Integrated internal suite, with both RWR & jamming capability

Propulsion: LCA - modern more reliable powerplant with FADEC
Bison: Older gen powerplant, no FADEC, issues with reliability and maintenance

LCA: FBW for carefree handling and pilot friendlyness; has FBW dictate maneuvering limits with loads, stores, and other criteria preventing errors
Bison: No

LCA: Special measures for reduced signature in design itself - canopy, airframe, use of specific materials, Y shaped intakes displaced for signature reduction
Bison: Original MiG-21 design, only RAM possible, comes with weight penalty, important as weapons add radar signature

LCA: Able to carry dedicated LDP/Special store on dedicated pylon
Bison: No

LCA: Has 7+1 pylons per design
Bison: 4+1, limiting flexibility

Payload: Edge to LCA even using 6400 Kg empty aircraft weight (~900 kg over original 5.5T) and 10.5T, empty weight with 2R73E missiles included. Has payload of 2.5T for 5 remaining pylons

Growth potential: Edge to LCA - items such as Oxygen generating equipment being included, plus In Flight Refuelling

Stores flexibility: LCA has 1760 standard avionics fit allowing for western, Indian, Russian weapons
Bison: No

Avionics: LCA has provision for datalink, has modern avionics, computers etc
Bison: Limited upgrade, few of these are included in current aircraft & it does not have a datalink/no mention of it to get the same

Systems: LCA designed around maintenance friendliness with simulators for crew
Bison: Limited by original MiG-21 design, only part task training

Frankly, anybody sensible spending time on actual technology comparison would have clarity. But in India, journalism is the one field with apparently little to no expectation of competence


Thanks Karan, good post about the Tejas Mk1 comparison to the Bison. More things you can add to the Tejas vs Bison comparison-

-far more modern ejection seat, the Martin Baker Mk16 as compared to that on the Bison which is the KM-1M, one that is unchanged from the Bis.
-Far newer RWR is also planned for the later batches of Tejas called the R118. Will be a very modern system. Existing one is similar though
-Internal EW suite is also going to be integrated which is superior to the Elta 8222 SPJ pod that the Bison can carry with sacrifice one pylon. Already the Bison needs 2 drop tanks for any meaningful range, and with the 8222 pod, that only leaves 1 more pylon for a missile or bomb. Compared to the 7+1 pylons that are free on the Tejas with its internal EW.
-Plus, a self-diagnostic fault detection system to track any faults on the ground, which is not there on the Bison.
-modern avionics like VOR/TACAN. Not seen any mention of such systems on the Bison though it had ILS.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 08:30 
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nachiket wrote:
A man like Kalmadi concerned about waste of public money? :lol: I don't buy it. Far more likely that he was paid to get the project cancelled.


indeed, but it shows just how easy it is for these foreign firms to find people willing to sell the nation for some money. And why would someone like Kalmadi care about India's aeronautical industry ? A corrupt madar**** and one who was known to be corrupt a long time ago, its only now that his kartoots are being caught red-handed. Probably he wanted it shelved so he could make some money on an imported fighter in place of the LCA.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 09:01 
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Re. Bison vs LCA, while I appreciate this was triggered by ACM's remark, should we not be comparing it with a more modern fighter? e.g. what Pakistan or China will throw at us?


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2011 09:10 
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Kartik wrote:
indeed, but it shows just how easy it is for these foreign firms to find people willing to sell the nation for some money. And why would someone like Kalmadi care about India's aeronautical industry ? A corrupt madar**** and one who was known to be corrupt a long time ago, its only now that his kartoots are being caught red-handed. Probably he wanted it shelved so he could make some money on an imported fighter in place of the LCA.


Woah - someone is raging. Let's not stoop ourselves to that level. :)


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