LCA News and Discussions

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Gurinder P
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gurinder P »

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:
india general population has been insulated from the ravages of enemy occupation and total war. the sneering people who post comments in media outlets about "why cannot india do what boeing does" and "what is use of tejas , its 30 years behind the curve" are a product of that environment.
Also the colonized mind that agrees to the characterization that India has more cellphones than toilets but fails to point out that even the UK has more cellphones than toilets and India has more cellphones than all of western Europe combined.

A cellphone, like a hat is a personal item. A toilet is used by many and you do not need a 1:1 ratio of toilets. How many people pass through Heathrow in a day? 50,000? Heathrow does not have 50,000 toilets. There are more aircraft than toilets in Heathrow. Talk about poor bad prioritization and not thinking of human needs. :P

That's why I totally hate watching some media outlets like FoxNews. They talk about stupid shit with stupid people and pay morons to go on tirades that don't make sense and have yuppies go to racist marches in DC and call it grassroots movements. <exhale> I however cannot comment about news media in India. I do hope that India does not fall to the pressure of the Americanski's because as a Canadian I can say that in the 60's we made a beautiful craft called the Avro Arrow and the Americans squelched the project even though it was a far superior aircraft to any the Americans had created to that date.
chaanakya
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by chaanakya »

LCA at Rs 3000-5000 cr developmental cost is worth the effort and cost. It is certainly less than the amount swindled by likes of CON leaders such as Kalmadi and Raja Rs 70000 cr /176000 cr. Many more programmes would have run without funding issues. So I don't think cost par-se is an issue here. Being indigenous, at least 80% of it, and weathering sanctions etc LCA project must be given a separate production line and confirmed orders by IAF in large numbers. Same should be the case with Arjun.

All this would have spin offs . Tech institutes would also develop expertise in R&D, run courses in required subjects, job opportunities would grow and combined with higher salaries, as some brfites have rightly advocated, more and more young people would gravitate towards such projects of national importance.Job creation would be fantastic.

Let us not forget one fact, whatever be the cost of development most of the monies remain within the country while contributing to GDP. In case of outright purchases monies fly out without much being invested here. Even with new DPP and offset clause I doubt very much that we would be able to withstand the pressure to waive off many requirements in national interest esp when huge sums are involved and lure of green card with corporate jobs thrown in for wards.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Yagnasri »

In the end after all the money spent, we did not get LCA alone. We got good facilities, knowledge, experiance and more improtantly confidence. LCA Mk1 is only the start and we can see many version of this efforts in the years and decades to come. The stupid press people will never get that and only interested in running down anything Indian.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Pratyush »

Narayana Rao wrote:In the end after all the money spent, we did not get LCA alone. We got good facilities, knowledge, experiance and more improtantly confidence. LCA Mk1 is only the start and we can see many version of this efforts in the years and decades to come. The stupid press people will never get that and only interested in running down anything Indian.
The thing is that the IAF has started taking ownership of the LCA. That means that the MK 2 and the AMCA will be fully supported by the IAF as well.

It will be nice to be able to throw the Press people in the mariana trench. But being a democrazy we cant do that:((
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Yes, we can control the media very easily. Think about the source of their information. If you can moderate that source, then you can moderate the ddm. That is the only handle we have.

But, the source is quite dis-organized for this grand scheme of patriotic setup. There are elements taking red pills and siphoning off the important time and money from the mainstream. DRDO media wing must be created. DPP policy must be implemented soon.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Wickberg »

SaiK wrote:Yes, we can control the media very easily. Think about the source of their information. If you can moderate that source, then you can moderate the ddm. That is the only handle we have.

But, the source is quite dis-organized for this grand scheme of patriotic setup. There are elements taking red pills and siphoning off the important time and money from the mainstream. DRDO media wing must be created. DPP policy must be implemented soon.
One can´t get pissed about the media. The journalists are only doing their job (being assholes) and by doing this, being investigating reporters, they have to criticize every project the government handles. The only way to "beat" them is to do the project well (and off course a good PR-department helps out). But really, you can´t never ever beat them. They are like cockroaches and when the last standing man has hall fallen to the ground due to a nuclear blast they will come crawling out of the ruins with their notebook and camera ready.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

being assholes in not their job fyi. being responsible citizens is there job. please correct that notion. they are not doing their duty.

how have you measured the projects India has done thus far? can you make some detailed explanations given money, inputs, setup, men and material, and exact Indian condition any other nation would have done it better? Also please dont forget to substantiate your reasoning.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gaur »

^^
Do not mix up job with duty. Their duty may be to behave like responsible citizens but that is not their job. At least most (other than an admirable few) do not view their jobs with such romantic notions. Practically speaking, the media is here not to be responsible. They are here to make money. Thus the only thing that can be done is to make sure that HAL has a good PR department and IAF shows a little more care while making public comments specially on projects of great National Importance.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Wickberg »

SaiK wrote:being assholes in not their job fyi. being responsible citizens is there job. please correct that notion. they are not doing their duty.

how have you measured the projects India has done thus far? can you make some detailed explanations given money, inputs, setup, men and material, and exact Indian condition any other nation would have done it better? Also please dont forget to substantiate your reasoning.

Are you asking me to analyze every project India has ventured into since it became independent? Or since the Indian bronze age? That is something I can´t do Sir. I have studied 40 points of history but such a task is way to time consuming and probably beyond my abilities.

I´m gonna cook some Chicken Tikka Masala soon. That is Indian I think, perhaps it will clear my head and I can start writing mine Indian dossier.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

W: perhaps, let me put it straight question. It was your point that India has to do their "projects well". now, your detailed answer how it may be done well is the question. For answering this, you may go any depth, but be substantive cause you are the one who feel we failed in the projects.

Gaur: I give up. /sorry we are out of sync here.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Wickberg »

SaiK wrote:W: perhaps, let me put it straight question. It was your point that India has to do their "projects well". now, your detailed answer how it may be done well is the question. For answering this, you may go any depth, but be substantive cause you are the one who feel we failed in the projects.

Gaur: I give up. /sorry we are out of sync here.
SaiK wrote:W: perhaps, let me put it straight question. It was your point that India has to do their "projects well". now, your detailed answer how it may be done well is the question. For answering this, you may go any depth, but be substantive cause you are the one who feel we failed in the projects.

Gaur: I give up. /sorry we are out of sync here.

No, my point was that journalists all over the free world are the same. And the only way to prove them wrong is not to f*ck up when you are starting a project. But even if you don´t and the project is a success it does´nt matter, the journalists will still find a ways to criticize the government and the project.

As for Indian projects I am assuming you mean the LCA, or perhaps the Arjun? Dear Sir, I would´nt touch those subjects with a 10 feet pole. I think moderators of this forum are just itching for an excuse to ban me, I think I will stay clear from that. And the funny thing is, I love India, Hindus, the LCA and anything related to India. I love it so much I am sitting on the outside criticizing it and trying to tell how it can be improved. Without any 1st hand experience! Crazy? That´s me!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Rishirishi »

Narayana Rao wrote:Something about PSU's - The Banks in the PSU done well. What every you may say PSU Heavy Eng units done well. But the main thing is the politicos and their useless actions in runing PSU units. Pvt Companies are not so great and if any PSU can be professionally managed it can perform as good as if not better than any private unit. HAL/ADA performence in the case of LCA is not so bad is also an indication in the same direction and points to the dedication and commitment of the people involved.
Have to disagree.
The PSU banks offered extremely poor service. People would have to stand in line outside for hours and beg for service. Only when the private banks entered the fray, did things improve, but slowly.
Companies like BHEL are no were in the league of international players. They have just imported second grade tech, and offer this to the market. They have not invented or patented any new tec. PSU,s were important to set up, to kick start the Industrial base.
But now has come the time to restructure the PSU,s. The management style is from the last century, and was made for technologically static, volume productive industry.

Some things that has to change.
*Uniform salary level > Performance based salary level (do not offer salary increase to all,)
*Job security > output driven job prospects (fire people if they are not required)
*Task driven management (management has to follow guidelines and precedures) > Preformance driven Management ( Pick your own team, reduce procedures) Heavy emphasis on final output. Let the intelligent, hardworking and goal driven rise fast.

Unions are of course going to go bananas, just let them. Ban subsidy to a unit, where strike cause financial damage.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by pali »

Found the following article on indianexpress.com
ROUGH WEATHER FOR LCA

At a recent function at HAL in Bangalore, the PSU was displaying Tejas, its indigenously produced aircraft, and some other new projects to Defence Minister A K Antony. While the air show started off on a good note, as soon as the much-maligned Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) rolled on to the runway for take-off, it started raining, prompting HAL to call off the flying display. The LCA’s “failure” to take off in drizzle prompted an official to quip that if the enemy knew about this “weakness”, it would launch an attack on India only during the monsoons.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rough ... ca/380530/

Now i realize this article is over 2 years old but still begs the questions... Is this still true?? Because our neighbours are posting on youtube severely criticizing LCA in comparison to JF17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIUqCxpjRdc
JE Menon
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by JE Menon »

Pali, it is well known in informed circles that the LCA is unable to fly at night, during the rainy season, and on sunny days at noontime because it is too bright. You should attempt to look at these things positively. We may not have designed an aircraft that is of any use, but at least it can fly. So now we know how to make a machine that can fly. Next step is to ensure that it can fly in the night, during the rainy season, and on bright sunny days (at noontime).
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by nachiket »

Well pali ji, how many flying displays have you seen performed during bad weather?? Is it possible to even see a grey aircraft in the sky when it is raining? As for the "official" who made that idiotic comment he needs a spiked boot up his musharraf.

And yes paki nincompoops badmouthing the LCA on youtube are to be taken seriously. :roll:
Last edited by nachiket on 24 Jan 2011 03:20, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by nachiket »

JE Menon wrote:Pali, it is well known in informed circles that the LCA is unable to fly at night, during the rainy season, and on sunny days at noontime because it is too bright. You should attempt to look at these things positively. We may not have designed an aircraft that is of any use, but at least it can fly. So now we know how to make a machine that can fly. Next step is to ensure that it can fly in the night, during the rainy season, and on bright sunny days (at noontime).
:rotfl: :rotfl: Nice one.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

pali wrote: Because our neighbours are posting on youtube severely criticizing LCA in comparison to JF17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIUqCxpjRdc

Our neighbours have a right to mock and we need to hang our heads in shame. In a straight vertical climb the JF-17 can touch an altitude of 100,000 feet and the only Raptor to have been shot down was downed by a JF-17.


Here are the relevant clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo9ew6bAjLs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXinpChdW4M
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by andy B »

pali wrote:Found the following article on indianexpress.com
ROUGH WEATHER FOR LCA

At a recent function at HAL in Bangalore, the PSU was displaying Tejas, its indigenously produced aircraft, and some other new projects to Defence Minister A K Antony. While the air show started off on a good note, as soon as the much-maligned Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) rolled on to the runway for take-off, it started raining, prompting HAL to call off the flying display. The LCA’s “failure” to take off in drizzle prompted an official to quip that if the enemy knew about this “weakness”, it would launch an attack on India only during the monsoons.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rough ... ca/380530/

Now i realize this article is over 2 years old but still begs the questions... Is this still true?? Because our neighbours are posting on youtube severely criticizing LCA in comparison to JF17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIUqCxpjRdc
Pali, my first question would be:

- You read the above information, you know its two years old, what have you done on your part to use good ol' google kaka or go through this very lca thread in order to answer your queries? Btw there are quite a few very detailed pieces of info posted by Chacko, the doc, Karthik and others including info from AM Rajkumar's book on the LCA.

- In regards to the vid I am going to use a "rabid dog" analogy. Say in your gully there is a rabid dog that keeps barking at every one that passes by. Now as a human we cant bark back to the dog so IMHO we let it bark and continue our way the dog will eventually just shut up and die its natural infected death :). By posting this vid here we are giving credibility to the nonsense comparison between a Chinese 3rd generation fighter that has been painted green by porkis and the LCA. Let us DYOR and find the answers to our own questions they are right here.

FYI I have been to the avalon airshow in melbourne-australia 3 times, and in the last one in 09 they had to postpone the flying display due to rain. Mind you the jets that were gonna take part in the display were not SDRE Tejas and their ilk but TFTA Khan fighters like the Super Hornet, Eagle, etc...food for thought!

Disclaimer: The above post is not meant to disrespect/offend anyone and if I am doing so then apologies in advance.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

At a recent function at HAL in Bangalore, the PSU was displaying Tejas, its indigenously produced aircraft, and some other new projects to Defence Minister A K Antony. While the air show started off on a good note, as soon as the much-maligned Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) rolled on to the runway for take-off, it started raining, prompting HAL to call off the flying display. The LCA’s “failure” to take off in drizzle prompted an official to quip that if the enemy knew about this “weakness”, it would launch an attack on India only during the monsoons.
I HOPE our dear neighbors have not realized that it is only because it was a "flying display" that it was canceled.

I think they should attack during the monsoons.

....................

I guess we encounter such posters every year.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

NRao wrote:
I guess we encounter such posters every year.

That was the archetypal dhoti-shivering post, if it was not plain trolling.

"Yikes! I'm so worried. Things don't look good and the Pakis are laughing. We must be wrong as usual"
There is piskology here that makes a person look for truth in Paki sites because anyone positive about India is blind to reality. With 1 billion plus people we are bound to have several decades more of this although things have become a lot better in the last decade with dhotis stiffening up and not trembling quite so much.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Shameek »

Pali ji. I was once at an airshow in bright sunny conditions where the F 22 demo team was performing. After a couple of loops they announced that there was a technical problem and cut it short. Being TFTA they also said the Raptor will have the worlds best service team waiting for it when it lands! $h!t happens.

On a side note, the LCA and F 22 share this feature of hydrophobia. We wanted the LCA to be equal to the best in the world and HAL has delivered.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03020.html
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

Was reading something on another forum and came across this text that is quite revealing. I hope BRF posters keep this in mind when we will (for sure at a later date) hear about defects in production of fighters at HAL. I'm not defending HAL's quality or manufacturing processes in any way, but this is just so people have some perspective.
In total TAİ has assembled 278 F-16s since it first began operations in 1987. During production, 29 planes were produced with no mistakes and three of them were considered “perfect.” Considering that only nine F-16 planes are produced as perfect out of 4,000 fighter jets in the world, Turkey’s success is conspicuous.
Turkey produced 278 F-16s and only 29 had no mistakes in them and only 3 were perfect- and to date only 9 F-16s were produced as perfect, out of 4000+ manufactured to date.

Haven't we heard about HAL having to do some jugaad at times (at least in the past) for fighters it manufactured ?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by karan_mc »

Indigenous aircraft to be main draw at Republic Day parade

I hope by next Rd parade we might have a fly past By Tejas aircraft's :D
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

towing a cheetah poster to rub it in.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

It is better to be 3 legged Cheetach then a brainless monkey :twisted:
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by chackojoseph »

Have we seen this? Link
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Pratyush »

vic wrote:It is better to be 3 legged Cheetach then a brainless monkey :twisted:
Plus 1 million to that. :mrgreen:
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by chackojoseph »

Boys (n Girlz) presenting to you The LCA Tejas Trainer 8)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

a flying cheetah needs only three legs to land. :wink:
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

chackojoseph wrote:Boys (n Girlz) presenting to you The LCA Tejas Trainer 8)

It is rare to see an article in Indian media that has anything positive to say about Indian maal. I like it.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by chackojoseph »

Marten wrote:Chacko, could we please have a few more pics of the beauty in your albums? I just love that configuration.
Roger that. I have been promised file pictures. Wonder what that might be :lol:
shiv wrote:It is rare to see an article in Indian media that has anything positive to say about Indian maal. I like it.
DRDO just got classy on its PR act. I didn't write a word there. I just congratulated them on their press release writing skill while requesting Marten's photos.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

I did some thumb rule calculations using conversion of Indian Rupee to US$ and adjusting for inflation. It gives an indication that the amount spent on LCA from 1983 till date is around US$ 2400 Million dollars in around 27 years (at present US$ value) or around Rs 10,000 to 12,000 crores in present rupees. This means that we are spending around US$ 50-100 million per annum on this programme. Compared to Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen etc, this amount is around 1/5th to 1/20th of the their costs. With new Sanctions in 2010, LCA programme has been allocated around US$ 1200 million additiional amount to be spent till 2018 which again means around US$ 80-120 million per annum adjusted for inflation.

The LCA programme when launched was very ambitious by Indian standards being given Rs 560 crores (US$ was around Rs 7 in 1980) with small Indian economy & limited foreign exchange. Comparing the present size of Indian economy & foreign exchange resources, the AMCA programme should be given around US$ 5 Billion to & US$ 10 Billion but it has been given only US$ 1 Billion and even this is just a symbolic figure. The actual amount is only Rs 100 crores for next 18 months to project study.
Last edited by vic on 25 Jan 2011 11:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

Re chackojoseph

Hi, would it be possible for you to ask ADA or GE about the thrust ( other specifications) of 414 "INS6" variant purchased by India. The figures of anything from 95kn to 120kn are doing the rounds.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by babbupandey »

chackojoseph wrote:Boys (n Girlz) presenting to you The LCA Tejas Trainer 8)
Girls? Are there any girls over here? I sense disturbance in the force.

As far as article is concerned, I felt it could have done much more justice to the aircraft by giving some details. We are praising the article because it has stayed away from criticising the Tejas like so many others in the media.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

It is not an article- is a DRDO press release. Shiv Aroor has the exact same text posted on his blog.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by chackojoseph »

Kartik wrote:It is not an article- is a DRDO press release. Shiv Aroor has the exact same text posted on his blog.
Yes.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Rishirishi »

First they said the plane would never be designed
then never fly
then fall out of the sky
then it would never be useful
And now when we have the plane, it is too expensive
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

dhoti shiver after dhoti shiver
these continue for ever
with all the wet qameez and goats
can't have the ordered dhotis again.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Yagnasri »

Saw the display of a trainer in R Day parade. I could not see to full parade. Did the show any flying?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by GeorgeM »

Without going OT, let me ask this question to folks who so eager to discuss the 'real cost' or 'actual cost' of LCA. First please define what you mean by 'real cost'. Then tell me - What was the real cost of raising you ? and your siblings if any? How many hours did your parents toil daily, good times they gave up, the health issues they had etc.. please I want all these monetized :lol: .

I am in Program Management (Sorry I dont have a PhD :wink: in International Management) and from my very humbling experience in this field, I feel that this way of calculating cost on a technology development program is just bound to fail. LCA started as a Technology Development/Demonstrator program. Then it went into the next phase - Prototype vehicle and then - production run (PV). You mean to couple the cost of the entire phase into one !!. That is assuming there is no more development after PV. There will be spin offs from TD phase into other areas like AMCA, UCAV, FGFA (10% ?) etc. The cost should be spread into that as well. So this cost increase of 3000%, 3300cr, $2.5 B etc is just nonsense, it will never make sense to calculate the invested Rupee so long as we dont know when and where the Tech Development ended and when the Product Development phase started. Which I guess we may never know.

Why are we dhoti bearers so hard on ourselves ?
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