LCA News and Discussions

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shiv
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

neerajb wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3ZPDX68_Dg
Check @1:25, the mirage crossing the exhaust of the lead mirage involuantarily enters into a roll when the right wing catches the high speed jetwash. IMHO the roll is uncommanded. Indeed Tejas needs to clear those tests before formation/combat flying.
What an enchantingly beautiful video!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by neerajb »

Indeed saar, but don't tell me that you haven't seen this movie!

Cheers....
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

vcsekhar wrote:Interestingly two of the crashes are due to pilot induced oscillations (PIO) would this be classified as what the IAF would call "Pilot Error"? (does anyone here know)
PIO is a control system design fault that needs to be fixed. And mind you they were using an "off the shelf" FBW/FCS, which is a straight lift from the F-16
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

Austin wrote:If you put the spec premium that high you can be assured that GTRE Kaveri will never achieve it in the next 15 years and it will be Kaveri redux , Snecma AFAIK does not have those kind of 10:1 rated engine tech and will never part with its tech even if they achieve those with some variant of M-88
This the current state of art. Snecma has all the components for those with it (blisks, high temp materials and the design and development tools). I am not asking for the NEXT gen stuff like Metal Matrix Composite fan blades etc which is their contribution to the LEAP-X program with GE for CFM!
A reasonable spec of GTRE-Snecma JV is to develop an engine with T/W ratio of 8-8.5:1 and a A/B thrust of 90-100 KN in the next 5 -8 years that is good enough to power the Tejas.
With the 414 putting out 100kn, a replacement engine with a thrust less than an outgoing one and that too with the inevitable in service weight gain is a non starter. 100 KN will be the min and if the achieve that with a 10:1 T:W ratio (around the weight of the current EJ200 with 90KN thrust), it will be great.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gaur »

Shiv Saar,
That clip is from the movie Sky Fighters. The whole movie is 102 minutes of non stop footage like that. Even the opening credits are a treat to watch. If some relative from videsh can send you the Blu Ray print, you would really enjoy 102 minutes of 1080p awesomeness. Believe me, the clip is not even the high point in the film.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Austin »

vina wrote:This the current state of art. Snecma has all the components for those with it (blisks, high temp materials and the design and development tools). I am not asking for the NEXT gen stuff like Metal Matrix Composite fan blades etc which is their contribution to the LEAP-X program with GE for CFM!
Snecma will not give us any TOT or any thing like that ( even with so called Deep TOT including SCB we got with AL-31FP we never made any gains that would help Kaveri in any way ) , what they will do is design and test and flight qualify the engine for Tejas Mk1/new Kaveri and then we end up paying royalty and import core stuff from them ( something if you would recollect IAF was not happy with GTRE-Snecma venture ) , I think this Snecma-GTRE venture will be like Brahmos venture where both sides design and get their stuff for Kaveri and then it would be labeled as new Kaveri.

What is NEXT GEN is also relative to where you stand in Engine Technology , for the Goras the Metal Matrix Composite blade,Geared Turbofan and other ding dong will be Next Gen that would power a A-350 or Dreamliner but for us to make Kaveri reach a T/W ratio of 8 or 9 and Thrust of 90-100KN will be Next Gen that we can look up to in the next 7-8 years.
With the 414 putting out 100kn, a replacement engine with a thrust less than an outgoing one and that too with the inevitable in service weight gain is a non starter. 100 KN will be the min and if the achieve that with a 10:1 T:W ratio (around the weight of the current EJ200 with 90KN thrust), it will be great.
Ejactly and hence no one in official circle is even talking of Kaveri ever powering a Mk2 or Mk3 Tejas or for that matter Tejas at all , they ( either the IAF or DRDO or both ) have raised the bar for the engine to an extent that nothing besides some latest and greatest from GE 414 series will be powering the LCA during its entire life time , like it did with Tejas with in Mk1 avatar.

IF ever the GTRE-Snecma Kaveri reaches to a stage of flight qualified engine they would at best power couple of Tejas Mk1 prototypes with it and as they are telling us Kaveri will power the next gen fighter AMCA.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Austin ji, nothing like that is projected on the media, and your thoughts may not be true afaik. What snecma is saying to reuse its ECO core, and has openly said, it would be a waste of money to re-invent wheel, and things like that. The point is their core will never get 100kN, and IAF has categorically rejected Snecma for Tejas.

Now, why collaborate with them, when GTRE can on its own terms and project schedule complete a 100kN one. yay!

While IAF in the interim years, be satisfied with 414 IN versions. Why this billions of $$ waste on France?, where they are least bothered (per oped links) to accept terms of the requirements. We are not idiots to consider billions wasted to use their cores if it has deficiency. Kabini must be made to deliver 100kN, no matter redesign, re size or change configurations. Now, GTRE can't say they can't after they have already going successful now.

This learning experiences can never be purchased. French will take the money, and will not deliver. Scrap the Snecma-GTRE deal that is a total waste. We can't afford that both at project aspect and requirements aspect, leaving economics on the pain side.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

vina, What is the concern about wake penetration flights? is it the back wash will be random and how does the aircraft react to the random back wash? If the preceding a/c is supersonic the wake will be in straight lines and the backwash have less air density?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Austin »

SaiK wrote:Now, why collaborate with them, when GTRE can on its own terms and project schedule complete a 100kN one. yay!
SaiK what makes you feel if GTRE cannot develop a decent flight qualified engine for Tejas Mk1 will develop a 100KN engine on its own that would match 414 if not exceed it ?

Tejas fate with GE engine was sealed when they decided to fly its prototype and production Mk1 with GE-404 variant and then it was quite easy to see why they would choose 414 over any thing out there , much like Gripen , Tejas in its current and new avtar will always be GE engine for production model.

Most likely then not , IAF will not waste its time to flight qualify a new engine like Kaveri for Tejas in production model ,as long as GE 414 is available to them , Kaveri would in all likelyhood will power AMCA in production model and perhaps in prototype if its available by then.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

agreed. My issue is not GE414 for mk2, but having to collaborate with Snema. Why do we need snecma at all? GTRE is not time pressured at all here from requirements to delivery. Let them graduate, as a baby with some defects would.

--
I found an interesting presentation of 1st typhoon's wake penetration for high speed and high loads.

http://www.ukintpress-conferences.com/c ... schwab.pdf
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

From K Prasad ji on AI2009 thread
Also had a 3 min chat with an LCA pilot (who was on Mirages and Migs before this), and has flown on a Sukhoi.... by his own admission, the LCA is an "absolute joy to fly".... responds extremely nimbly to commands (despite the underpowered engine), and the cockpit is far better than anything he has seen.

He was extremely confident that the LCA would definitely come into large scale service, and once the pilots were introduced to it, he said, "we'll have a huge problem rejecting transfer applications to LCA units".
Hope the above happens sooner :)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

ramana wrote:What is the concern about wake penetration flights? is it the back wash will be random and how does the aircraft react to the random back wash? If the preceding a/c is supersonic the wake will be in straight lines and the backwash have less air density?
Well, the wake is highly turbulent ,is highly unpredictable and unstable stuff and usually has stuff like eddies and vortices. This not the normal state for which any airplane is designed for (look up any text book, some nice undisturbed air flowing in nice streamlines with no mixing of layers (laminar flow)..Problem with an unstable plane like the LCA is that the FCS has to handle these transients and extremes which are "off normal" and stablize the plane. That will require testing and serious testing at that.

For eg, next time you go to a lake and take a boat ride, try crossing the wake of another boat at right angles. As you do, your boat will bob and weave and experience some crazy motions. Even if you travel in the wake of the boat ahead, you will experience funny motions that you wont in still water. The boat is stable by itself and the instabilities of the way are within limits of the stability of the boat design and it rides it out. What if the boat were artificially stabilized like the LCA is ?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Prasad »

So its like a stress test on steroids of the flight control systems essentially? I understand the very nature of the test is to put the plane(+software) through its paces. In such a case, how do they handle safety? As in, like AoA testing is done by gradually increasing the AoA each time and poring over how the plane has handled it before pushing it even more. Any idea how wake testing is done? Would be interesting to know. Thanks!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by neerajb »

SaiK wrote:I found an interesting presentation of 1st typhoon's wake penetration for high speed and high loads.

http://www.ukintpress-conferences.com/c ... schwab.pdf
From the PDF:

Test Objectives Wake Penetration

• Verification of the robustness of Air Data System and Air Data Transducers (ADTs) against wakes.
• Validation of a combined wakes and flight mechanics model of flight mechanics department.
• Verification of the robustness of the FCS (Control Laws) against wakes.

Cheers....
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Finally ADA's website updated that too on a sunday

LCA-Tejas has completed 1520 Test Flights successfully. (17-Jan-2011).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-192,PV3-255,LSP1-60,LSP2-160,PV5-22,LSP3-24,LSP4-25,LSP5-2)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1452 Test Flights successfully. (18-Oct-10).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-173,PV3-234,LSP1-60,LSP2-160,PV5-17,LSP3-16,LSP4-12)

So they are flying the lsp3/4/pv3/pv2, looks like the lsp5 as someone pointed out has build quality problems?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

So its the control system response considering the unstable nature of the lCA that is the concern/ However won't the turbulent air in the wake be small perturbations in the sub-sonic regime and hardly effective in supersonic regime due to Mach lines?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by merlin »

Austin wrote:
SaiK wrote:Now, why collaborate with them, when GTRE can on its own terms and project schedule complete a 100kN one. yay!
SaiK what makes you feel if GTRE cannot develop a decent flight qualified engine for Tejas Mk1 will develop a 100KN engine on its own that would match 414 if not exceed it ?

Tejas fate with GE engine was sealed when they decided to fly its prototype and production Mk1 with GE-404 variant and then it was quite easy to see why they would choose 414 over any thing out there , much like Gripen , Tejas in its current and new avtar will always be GE engine for production model.

Most likely then not , IAF will not waste its time to flight qualify a new engine like Kaveri for Tejas in production model ,as long as GE 414 is available to them , Kaveri would in all likelyhood will power AMCA in production model and perhaps in prototype if its available by then.
Well then the thing to find out at AI 2011 is if there is a plan to fly the Kaveri in one of the Tejas prototypes after Kaveri is deemed ready for testing in a single engined fighter? Say end of 2011?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

ramana wrote:So its the control system response considering the unstable nature of the lCA that is the concern/ However won't the turbulent air in the wake be small perturbations in the sub-sonic regime and hardly effective in supersonic regime due to Mach lines?
Well, to show a picture of how the wake of an aircraft looks like, I googled wing tip vortices in Google and hit images.. and you get this (used mozilla browser).

You can see how the vortex sheet is behind a plane with two pretty strong vortices shed from the wing tip , which behind large jets can have tornado like intensities . Large amount of nice pictures where it is very easily visible. So you if fly across a wake, you penetrate two near tornadoes swirling in opposite directions with a low pressure area in between.. That can toss you up and down, and if you encounter a vortex ring while flying alongside the plane and a wing encounters one, you can get into an roll kind of things.

True, unlike natural turbulence, it might not have random eddies and wakes and instabilities , and when the wake dies out into turbluent air, it probably does not have enough strenght to affect stability,but close in,it can be pretty dangerous. In commercial avaiation, they impose minimum vertical separations and distance between planes to avoid flying into the other planes wakes.

For supersonic wave, I guess it will be like crossing the wake of a boat, which sheds divergent waves..You will get pressure variations and peaks, but not like flying into one of those wing tip vortices I guess.
Last edited by vina on 30 Jan 2011 14:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Austin »

merlin wrote:Well then the thing to find out at AI 2011 is if there is a plan to fly the Kaveri in one of the Tejas prototypes after Kaveri is deemed ready for testing in a single engined fighter? Say end of 2011?
Well the first thing would be to find out of Kaveri has met the thrust spec as laid down by DRDO , second would be to see if it is flight qualified to be mated with Tejas airframe did it put in enough hours on IL-76 to be flight qualified.

I am not certain if they would ever put a ballpark date on when it will be deemed ready for testing , when I met the Kaveri folks in AI 05 they told it would be ready in the next 2-3 years.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

Austin wrote:Snecma will not give us any TOT or any thing like that ( even with so called Deep TOT including SCB we got with AL-31FP we never made any gains that would help Kaveri in any way ) , what they will do is design and test and flight qualify the engine for Tejas Mk1/new Kaveri and then we end up paying royalty and import core stuff from them ( something if you would recollect IAF was not happy with GTRE-Snecma venture ) , I think this Snecma-GTRE venture will be like Brahmos venture where both sides design and get their stuff for Kaveri and then it would be labeled as new Kaveri.
I do think that the Snecma JV will be true design and manufacturing partnership. That only those who signed the contract will know how it is going to be done. In any case,even if Snecma doesn't ToT anything, but makes them all in India with it's prop technology, it will be fine. It is still far better than importing and assembling engines from CKD.

I doubt that the single crystal manufacturing tech was actually transferred via the SU-30 MKI deal. I would be very surprised if it happened. They probably final machine the blades from blocks supplied from Russia at best.
Ejactly and hence no one in official circle is even talking of Kaveri ever powering a Mk2 or Mk3 Tejas or for that matter Tejas at all , they ( either the IAF or DRDO or both ) have raised the bar for the engine to an extent that nothing besides some latest and greatest from GE 414 series will be powering the LCA during its entire life time , like it did with Tejas with in Mk1 avatar.
Probably not worth the trouble of qualifying that plane with a new engine , especially if GE makes the engine in India /ToTs the bulk of GE414 to India for manufacturing, just like the AL-31 for the MKI. I do think the engine deal that got signed and which GE won over the EJ200 has those ToT and manufacturing provisions.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by RKumar »

Cross posting form AeroIndia 11
hain ji... :D :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Tejas Formation Flights during the Inaugural Day (09th Feb 2011 Fore Noon)

Tejas Flight displays every day,

During the Forenoon (1030-1100 hours) & During the Afternoon (1430 – 1500 hours)
some pents will be wet across LoC


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Thanks Vina. Good you still know your aero and can guide us.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

vina, last I heard was snecma saying about ECO core for Kaveri. Now how that qualifies for:
true design and manufacturing partnership.
:?:
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

v Indoor Exhibits at Hall – D

LCA ( light Combat Aircraft) Models of all variants + Mk-II IAF & Navy
People who are going there. Please get some pics of the Mk-II. Ask as many questions as you can.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by nits »

Model Tejas Mk.2 At Aero India

The DRDO's curtain-raiser statement for Aero India 2011 suggests that it will be displaying models of the air force and navy TEJAS Mk.2. There has been little clarity over the real design changes likely to be incorporated in the Mk.2, so to specifically mention the Mk.2 in its list of model displays suggests that there will be something to talk about. Will it have canard foreplanes? We do know that the aft fuselage will undergo changes to house the GE-F414 turbofan, but that's pretty much all we really know


Note - This is a unoffical image sent to Livefist from one of his "fan"

Image
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sid »

^^ LCA Navy already has LEVCONs. Why include canards?

I say why not DSI on LCA MK II :D
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gaur »

Sid wrote:^^ LCA Navy already has LEVCONs. Why include canards?

I say why not DSI on LCA MK II :D
What improvement will that bring other than a small improvement in rcs?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Gripen NG ish!~ cool pic. We never gave canards more weight than moveable LERX earlier discussions. Interesting.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by nachiket »

Since the Mk2 is still in the design phase, we have to keep in mind that the model to be displayed at AI could be visibly different from the eventual production model. My only wish is that they somehow manage to increase the payload and internal fuel capacity a little bit. Radical changes like canards are unnecessary. It could instead use movable LERX like the naval version.
The important thing is that the development time is shortened to the minimum possible. The IAF needed this aircraft yesterday. I just hope to see 15 squadrons of Tejas (Mk1 and 2) flying in IAF colors.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

It is a good idea to increase internal fuel perhaps kevlar based fuel storage compartments.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by nachiket »

Marten wrote:Pic is likely inaccurate fan-art. There is no change in the wing size whereas PS had already stated there would be an increase.

Nicer Square intake shapes would be really nice TFTA (not sure how they affect the a/c though).
Marten, the pic is fan art. Aroor says that on his blog.

Larger intakes is about the only thing that we can be sure of seeing in the Mk2. I don't expect to see rectangular intakes though. It would be too radical a change and one that probably is not worth all the trouble.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by disha »

Why go for Canards when LERX is already being tested for Naval LCA? Also remember the quote that NLCA should have been designed and developed first?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by disha »

Prasad wrote:So its like a stress test on steroids of the flight control systems essentially? I understand the very nature of the test is to put the plane(+software) through its paces. In such a case, how do they handle safety? As in, like AoA testing is done by gradually increasing the AoA each time and poring over how the plane has handled it before pushing it even more. Any idea how wake testing is done? Would be interesting to know. Thanks!
Put two or three plans in different formations in the wind tunnel and analyze the vortices. IMHO it is not just the flight control systems, but the structural integrity (three dimensional flexing and bending of wings/structures) that will be tested as well.

Also formation flights do not have to wait for full completion of the wake tests, I think it is more for mid-air refueling where there is a cyclone generated at the wingtips of those giant flying fuel tankers.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sid »

Gaur wrote:
Sid wrote:^^ LCA Navy already has LEVCONs. Why include canards?

I say why not DSI on LCA MK II :D
What improvement will that bring other than a small improvement in rcs?
question should be, "if we can have it, why not"? Data generated from this change will benefit future projects, i.e. AMCA.

Following will be nice to have on MK II -

>IRST
>AESA
>Air-refueling probe
>Jammers like what we have on MKI wing tips.

Make it a complete air superiority fighter, instead of fighter/bomber which makes it jack of all trades, master of none.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

Marten wrote:Pic is likely inaccurate fan-art. There is no change in the wing size whereas PS had already stated there would be an increase.

Nicer Square intake shapes would be really nice TFTA (not sure how they affect the a/c though).
All they need is a larger intake. You can get those without going for squarish intakes too, by increasing the intake diameter. So a boxy intake is not a necessity per se. That it would LOOK better (TFTA) is for sure.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

disha wrote:
Why go for Canards when LERX is already being tested for Naval LCA? Also remember the quote that NLCA should have been designed and developed first?
not LERX- but LEVCONS.

Anyway, this is not DRDO's pic, its fanart. We'll find out soon enough if they go for LEVCONs or canards (like what Ajai Shukla had said long ago and what AW&ST's Neelam Matthews said very recently).

whatever improves the STR the most, should be incorporated.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Cain Marko »

Gaur wrote:
Sid wrote:^^ LCA Navy already has LEVCONs. Why include canards?

I say why not DSI on LCA MK II :D
What improvement will that bring other than a small improvement in rcs?
Weight loss perhaps since the splitter plate will be dumped? Not that I am advocating it - I'd just like to see them keep the empty weight @ 6500kg or below. That will surely go a long way in alleviating those TWR, STR issues imho! If they can increase internal fuel capacity plus add IFR capability, that would be another worthy goal. Fancy goals would include an IRST and perhaps conformal carriage of weapons plus AESA.

CM.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Multatuli »

Wouldn't the canards make it very difficult for the pilot to get in the cockpit ? And they make the LCA look ugly too.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by k prasad »

Mk.2 plans from AI09...

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=619393#p619393

jingos... please ask for updates on this frnot :-)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

thanks k prasad for linking that here. the ear pleasing feature for future is this:
- Inboard Signature reduction - weith composite structures, the RF energy may penetrate the skin, in which case, we need to reduce the signature of internal components as well.
waiting to hear for more!
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