Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2011

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 24 Feb 2011 08:03

International Mother Tongue Day:

A seminar on the occasion of International Mother Tongue Day that was observed in Swat to highlight the importance of languages. The event was organised by Svastu Art and Culture Association, in collaboration with Suchha Likwal Swat and Bacha Khan Trust Foundation. Muhammad Pervez Shaheen, a language researcher and noted writer of Swat Valley said, “It is a great tragedy that whenever we spoke in favour of mother tongues, we have been called anti-Pakistan.” He further said that the Hindu Kush is like a mine of languages and it is unfortunate that the region’s heritage is likely to die out.

Abdul Aziz Gujjar, upholder of the Gojri language, said “Gujjar is a great nation”, which according to him produced great personalities like Choudhry Rahmat Ali, who coined the name Pakistan; but it is very sad that his grave is in London. “Major Tufail Shaheed also belonged to our nation. We are the real inhabitants of this area,” he claimed. He asked the government to help save Gojri language.

partha · Post by **partha** » 24 Feb 2011 08:06

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bu ... vis/191815

Discussion on Raymond Davis. Guests: B Raman, Ayesha Siddiqa, K C singh, Moshraff Zaidi, Steve Cohen.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 24 Feb 2011 08:11

Airavat wrote: The event was organised by Svastu Art and Culture Association.

What is the world coming to?

The pious are resorting to kufr pronunciations and words?-Suvastu-the fair dwelling mentioned in the Rigveda.Pakjabis must have done real damage for these people to start remembering long forgotten histories in places beyond Sindhu.Ofcourse,snake oil salesman can only see Taliban support in Pakistan.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 24 Feb 2011 08:43

^^^^^ Shiv,
Firstly, no offense taken – for sure. I understand your POV perfectly well; and largely agree; believe me.

Respectfully, I think you misunderstood me when you took my meaning to be that US power could fix the TSP or otherwise gain control over the situation. I didn’t mean to convey that at all, and for American purposes, that’s not really even necessary. I only meant to say that the US can be very, very destructive, and I think history bears that out. This destructiveness obviously does not equate to victory, but in the case of Pakistan and the American woes there, destruction may just be a means unto an end in and of itself, particularly if the TSP can be de-nuked. However that effort may go, atmospherics may actually be more important for the Americans in Pakistan, than are true results. Don’t make the mistake of assuming that the American war machine needs a particular outcome – continuous war is much more profitable.

American Presidents, much like many BRFites, worry about mushroom clouds blooming over their heads. I’ll bet you; Obama’s advisers are most worried about the bombs with ‘Made in Pakistan’ labels on them. Do you think Obama wants to be remembered as the President who let that happen, or who allowed that “danger to draw near” on his watch? I don’t think so, and I’d guess neither do you. The things Obama most wants to do are on his domestic agenda, requiring a second term, and I doubt if he’ll soft shoe with Pakistan if doing so comes with all that risk and zero reward. I think the TSP is not seeing all of the pieces on the chess board. Consider for a moment: If Obama told the American public that he had to act – probably with a surprise attack – against a nuclear threat heated red-hot by Pakistan’s instability and institutionalized extremism – who would argue against him? Who would doubt him? I wouldn’t, and I’ll bet neither would most people reading this thread.

Furthermore, Wolfowitz/Rumsfeld/Pearle were right when they said, “There’s no good targets in Afghanistan…”. Since the Iraq (mis)adventure is winding-down, the American mil-industrial complex needs a new project, and since Iran is too much to handle (with all that oil at stake), the next best target is the TSP. Very quickly, the American baksheesh can stop, and the drones over FATA could be replaced with B-52s over the whole of Pakistan. Will this lead to US “victory”? I don’t know and didn’t mean to say that it could. I only meant to say that the calculation is evolving to make that scenario, not just likely, but necessary.

For the record: IMO, there is no ‘fixing’ Pakistan. The TSP is a terminal case. I don’t think I’m the only one who has made that estimation. So the question then becomes, what is everyone’s end game? If Pakistan’s end game can be assumed to be a mushroom cloud over Delhi, London, New York or Moscow (all of which are on their hit list, believe me), then what can be expected of the other players? What would you expect?

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 24 Feb 2011 09:19

Pak intelligence ready to break ties with Washington.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05040.html

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 24 Feb 2011 09:41

menon s wrote:Pak intelligence ready to break ties with Washington.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05040.html

.

Its like cutting umbilical card of Siamese twins that are conjoined at hip. Now the nutrition contents comes by leaching other conjoined twin (PA and scarp goat Zardari) and will survive.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 24 Feb 2011 09:58

On why? India is a democracy and Pakistan is not? A newer perspective.
1.In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the British began gradually devolving power to local authorities in several provinces across India. They did not pursue such reform very far in the North-West Frontier Province and Punjab, two provinces that would make up the bulk of Pakistan after the 1947 partition. Both territories were important military recruitment grounds for the Raj and were located along its restive western frontier, where devolution was considered a security threat. Whereas several of the provinces India inherited from the Raj had experience with some democracy, Pakistan inherited two highly militarized provinces with no such background, laying the groundwork for the country’s military-bureaucratic ethos. Even more, India was born with an intact bureaucratic apparatus in Delhi, whereas Pakistan had to build an entire government in 1947 under a state of emergency.
2.Local politics in India and Pakistan are based on hierarchical social orders — castes among Hindus, biraderis (clans) among Muslims, and tribes among both — which have given rise to clientelistic arrangements among local groups and parties. Yet social hierarchies have relaxed as the power of landed elites has waned. But as Oldenburg rightly emphasizes, this process is more pronounced in India, where the so-called lower castes, including the Dalits (“untouchables”), have gained some political influence. This is not to say that India has become egalitarian; Oldenburg acknowledges the growing gap between the rich and the poor. The situation of peasants in remote states such as Chhattisgarh and Jharkhand is critical. Just as some of Pakistan’s desperately poor have turned to the Taliban because they claim to represent some form of social justice, peasants in Chhattisgarh and Jharkhand have turned to Maoist insurgents. Of course, even though the similarities between India and Pakistan are striking, these trends are not likely to result in a major convergence of the two countries anytime soon, as Oldenburg rightly concludes. Since 1977, the differences between them have grown, and they are now less a difference of degree than a difference of nature.
3.the founders of the Muslim League certainly defined the Pakistani project against Hindus.
4.Washington has rarely used its influence in Islamabad to promote democracy. President Dwight Eisenhower was fond of Ayub Khan and had no problem with his 1958 coup. Reagan had a good relationship with Zia and looked the other way when he tried to acquire nuclear material from China in the late 1970s and early 1980s.
5.To overcome this situation, the relationship between India and Pakistan — not just the comparison between them — must be addressed. India, a growing economic power, resents being grouped with a quasi-failed state. Indian leaders were quite happy, for example, when U.S. President Barack Obama visited India but not Pakistan during his last Asian tour. But decoupling is not only bad for U.S.-Pakistani relations — Pakistan longs to be recognized as on par with India and could be easier to work with if it is, even if only symbolically — it is not really in India’s interest, either. China, India’s real rival, could take advantage of a Pakistan alienated from the West. And if Pakistan falls apart, democracy in India might be affected as well. Already, routinized terrorist violence has taken its toll on Indian civil liberties. And communal harmony in India, which has always been tenuous, has become increasingly strained thanks to terrorist attacks and the BJP’s Hindu nationalist policies. The best way forward will be for both countries, with the support of the international community, to launch a new round of dialogue. Without such attention to Indian-Pakistani relations, India’s democracy will not prosper and Pakistan’s generals will never unclench their fists.
http://criticalppp.com/archives/40811

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 24 Feb 2011 09:59

menon s wrote:Pak intelligence ready to break ties with Washington.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05040.html

yup, already posted in previous page

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Feb 2011 10:03

Late on the morning of January 25, a senior CIA officer stationed in Islamabad, Pakistan’s capital, was scheduled to meet an informant near the busy Qurtada square in Lahore. Mr Davis, a former special forces officer hired by the CIA from a private security contractor based in Florida, was part of her security detail. He was tasked with making sure the area was safe for her arrival and positioning himself to respond if things went wrong. Sure enough, they did.

Ok, atleast the "high level package" Davis was guarding is now explained...a female CIA station chief stationed at the embassy. But does she have to go all the way to Lahore to meet her contact? Will that itself not expose the contact ( such a long journey will surely perk up ISI counter-intel keeping watch on the embassy)?

How the Americans must be thanking their stars that she didn't get caught in the crossfire.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Feb 2011 10:05

shiv wrote:The US is bribing the Pakjabi army not to hit the west because the Pakistani army says to the US is "We are too poor and ill armed to control the Taliban. You stopped paying us, an they attacked the West. You pay us and arm us and we will stop them" So the Pakistani army is paid and armed to control the Taliban and the Taliban is not controlled. Now the Pakistani army says "We will fail and all our arms will go to the Taliban" - and the likes of Lieven are asking "What to do now?"

Har Har Mahadev!!!

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 24 Feb 2011 10:07

Raymond Davis saga: US warns of moving International Court

This act is definitely an ebb in US Ramboism.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2011 10:07

MenonS, india has moved beyond the nonsense proclaimed by Jaffrelot. If TSP fails its the TSP that failed. India wont suffer as the guy rants.

Next time don't post nonsense on this forum. Its not a catchall place.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 24 Feb 2011 10:19

shiv wrote:The loss of Hong Kong's control from the hands of a US lackey, the spinning out of control of NoKo, the loss of Vietnam, the splitting of ally Pakistan into Bangladesh despite US support, the loss of influence in Iran, the stalemate in Afghanistan and the inability to control Pakistan are signs of a struggling, waning power that is making more mistakes than it can handle even though it has its own citizens and residents hoodwinked and mesmerized with myths about its own capabilities.

This covers 1971 to 2011, so I guess this is like a long sunset? Also, during that period, it saw the demise of its biggest foe, the Soviet Union. I don't think Chinese power today yet exceeds that of the Soviet Union at its peak, relative to the US of A.

But it does go to show what a lousy president George W. Bush was. A US relative decline w.r.t. the rest of the world was inevitable, even necessary for justice. Bush managed to destroy the US Govt's financial position by tax cuts and an unfunded Medicaid extension. He embroiled the US in two wars which he neither won nor funded but merely added to the US deficit. The most telling statistic is that at the beginning of Bush's presidency, the US was going to be overtaken by China in size of GDP in 2043 or thereabouts, and with 8 years of his presidency that advanced to 2033 or so. The American lost decade, so to speak. And the stink of his politics continues to pollute the land.

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 24 Feb 2011 10:37

Five security officials killed in attack on Khyber check post

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 24 Feb 2011 10:45

ramana wrote:MenonS, india has moved beyond the nonsense proclaimed by Jaffrelot. If TSP fails its the TSP that failed. India wont suffer as the guy rants.

I tell you, there is something about this India TSP equal equal in the gora consciousness that is immutable. Perhaphs they cannot explain nor accept that their pet TSP project is failing, while India surges ahead, that they still resport to some risible arguments to cling to the equal equal.

One thing that strikes me about the RD affair. Many have pointed out that RD was crossing some red lines, he got tail gated by some ISI monkeys, and RD being no pussyfooter sent the 2 ISI scum to their 72. Seems to me the red line he crossed has something to do with tracking pigLeTs, a complete no no for TSP. I wish we hear more on this angle.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 24 Feb 2011 10:46

menon s wrote:Whereas several of the provinces India inherited from the Raj had experience with some democracy, Pakistan inherited two highly militarized provinces with no such background, laying the groundwork for the country’s military-bureaucratic ethos.

That is simply wrong. NWFP had a Congress ministry right upto independence - and during exactly the same periods as the United Provinces and Bihar. Punjab had a Unionist ministry - a Muslim-Hindu-Sikh coalition until about Feb-Mar 1947, when it was toppled amidst the violence unleashed by the Muslim League.

You can read about it here:
http://sites.google.com/site/cabinetmis ... march-1947

Sir E. Jenkins (Punjab) to Lord Pethick-Lawrence, 29 January 1947: Muslim League thus place themselves in constitutional position which it is not easy to defend. They failed to form government after general elections and have not yet defeated coalition Ministry in Assembly. Budget begins on 3rd March. Their argument is that because they are largest single party they are entitled to dislodge coalition Ministry by show of force.

Field Marshal Viscount Wavell to Lord Pethick-Lawrence 12 February 1947

It is clear that the Muslim League could not run a stable Government in the Punjab without support from some other party, even if they could win over all the Unionist Muslims. The party strength as on the 11th December was as follows:-

Congress ...........................................48
Muslim League...................................77
Panthic Akali Party............................21
Unionists(including 7 or 8 Muslims)...16
Independents.......................................5
Speaker................................................1
Vacant..................................................7
Total........175

It is unlikely that the Muslim League would secure any firm support from another party for a policy which was based on Pakistan, and I agree with Jenkins' view expressed in his telegram of 8th February that one community cannot possibly govern the Punjab with its present boundaries. It will perhaps only be when the Muslim League have the opportunity of forming a government that they will realise the full facts of the situation.

Sardar Patel to Field Marshal Viscount Wavell 14 February 1947: I also enclose a cutting from the Free Press Journal (dated 7th February 1947) of Mr. Ghazanfar Ali Khan's speech in Lahore. I would particularly invite attention to the following passage:

"Mohammed Bin Kassim and Mahommed of Ghazni invaded India with armies composed of only a few thousands and yet were able to overpower lakhs of Hindus; God willing, a few lakhs of Muslims will yet overwhelm crores of Hindus."

Sir E. Jenkins (Punjab) to Field Marshal Viscount Wavell (Extract)
15 February 1947

The failure of the Muslim League to take office after the General Election was due more to their uncompromising communal outlook than to any other cause.

If Pakistan is not a democracy, it is because of the politics of Jinnah and his All-India Muslim League.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 24 Feb 2011 10:50

US, Pakistan commanders in 'candid' talks on war
(AFP) – 10 hours ago

MUSCAT — Top US and Pakistani military commanders held talks in the Gulf on Wednesday in what Pakistan called a move to coordinate better the war against the Taliban and Al-Qaeda on Afghan border.
..
A US military official described the meeting as "very candid" with "very productive discussions".

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Feb 2011 10:58

A_Gupta wrote:Punjab had a Unionist ministry - a Muslim-Hindu-Sikh coalition until about Feb-Mar 1947, when it was toppled amidst the violence unleashed by the Muslim League.

Not just that..The Chief Minister of Punjab, Sir Sikandar Hayat Khan, was one of the "tilt forces" in the political field...It can be credibly speculated that had he not died prematurely, partition would not have happened...Sir Sikandar had decidedly ambivalent views on both Jinnah and Muslim League, and it was his patch that was the big P of Pakistan...Unfortunately he died, and the next guy, Malik Sir Khizer Hayat Khan Tiwana simply didnt have the same heft..

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 24 Feb 2011 13:20

somnath wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:Punjab had a Unionist ministry - a Muslim-Hindu-Sikh coalition until about Feb-Mar 1947, when it was toppled amidst the violence unleashed by the Muslim League.
Not just that..The Chief Minister of Punjab, Sir Sikandar Hayat Khan, was one of the "tilt forces" in the political field...It can be credibly speculated that had he not died prematurely, partition would not have happened...Sir Sikandar had decidedly ambivalent views on both Jinnah and Muslim League, and it was his patch that was the big P of Pakistan...Unfortunately he died, and the next guy, Malik Sir Khizer Hayat Khan Tiwana simply didnt have the same heft..

Sikandar Hayat Khan died in 1942 IIRC and infact also signed the Pakistan Resolution.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2011 13:33

menon s wrote: And if Pakistan falls apart, democracy in India might be affected as well. Already, routinized terrorist violence has taken its toll on Indian civil liberties. And communal harmony in India, which has always been tenuous, has become increasingly strained thanks to terrorist attacks and the BJP’s Hindu nationalist policies. The best way forward will be for both countries, with the support of the international community, to launch a new round of dialogue. Without such attention to Indian-Pakistani relations, India’s democracy will not prosper and Pakistan’s generals will never unclench their fists.
http://criticalppp.com/archives/40811

I would be inclined to call this racism.

Why racism? Why not call it an "analysis"?

Simply because the shagging twit who wrote this looks at one area of the world with people of a particular alien variety of people and believes that all these cattle who look alike and sound alike probably behave alike too. "Intellectual laziness" and "ignorance" are terms that are too sophisticated for blundering nincompoops like the bucket of freshly - flushed toilet effluent that wrote this article.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Feb 2011 14:26

kmkraoind wrote:
menon s wrote:Pak intelligence ready to break ties with Washington.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05040.html
.

Its like cutting umbilical card of Siamese twins that are conjoined at hip. Now the nutrition contents comes by leaching other conjoined twin (PA and scarp goat Zardari) and will survive.

No, it is the case of a pros*itute demanding respect from her p*mp.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Feb 2011 15:27

i fear that conversations between US jarnails and their paqui equivalents are a bit like my irate conversations with hotel receptionists

Me: I want/need x,y,z to happen by 0800 hrs
Staff: yes, yes no problem (shake of head)
Me: are you sure?
Staff: yes, yes no problem (shake of head)
a few hours later
Staff: Sir, we cannot do x,y,z, but...
Me: but i need x,y,z
Staff: yes sir, no problem
a few hours later
Staff: Sir, we cannot do...
repeat
06:00
Staff: yes sir, no problem
07:58
Staff: sir, we cannot do...

now, i wonder if unkil will storm out without paying the bill?

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 24 Feb 2011 17:53

Blast damages railway track in Dalbandin

DALBANDIN: A bomb blast damaged a railway track in Balochistan’s Dalbandin area on Thursday.

---

Gunmen destroy two Nato tankers near Chaman

QUETTA: A government administrator says unidentified gunmen in southwestern Pakistan have attacked and set alight two Nato oil tankers that were traveling to Afghanistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2011 18:29

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote: American Presidents, much like many BRFites, worry about mushroom clouds blooming over their heads. I’ll bet you; Obama’s advisers are most worried about the bombs with ‘Made in Pakistan’ labels on them. Do you think Obama wants to be remembered as the President who let that happen, or who allowed that “danger to draw near” on his watch? I don’t think so, and I’d guess neither do you. The things Obama most wants to do are on his domestic agenda, requiring a second term, and I doubt if he’ll soft shoe with Pakistan if doing so comes with all that risk and zero reward. I think the TSP is not seeing all of the pieces on the chess board. Consider for a moment: If Obama told the American public that he had to act – probably with a surprise attack – against a nuclear threat heated red-hot by Pakistan’s instability and institutionalized extremism – who would argue against him?

Ravi - the "who would argue" is a particularly perceptive comment.

I personally tend to take a far more cynical view of US Presidents and "world leaders' in general than your post indicates. What politicians and certainly US Presidents are interested in is "what things appear like" to voters and are not too concerned about what things actually are. To that extent I think BRFites are more honest and therefore less politically adept.

Reagan and Bush (I think) both lied as necessary to Congress when Pakistan was building up nuclear weapons. Clearly they were certain that Pakistani nuclear weapons were not going to land on Americans during their (respective) watch. As regards Pakistani nukes hitting America in someone else's watch - the attitude is summed up by yet another thing I have learned from America "In the long term we will all be dead"

I don't think American presidents give a sh1t about what might happen after their watch as long as the appearance is like they managed things well. If they manage things well "who would argue" is a perfect expression to explain how they can go around doing absurd things like supplying nuclear delivery vehicles to Pakistan.

American presidents are dangerous alright. America is a dangerous country, If - in 100 to 150 years time the US is a poor and failing country it will have more nuclear weapons and more small arms on the loose that any other country in the world and will be 100 times more dangerous than Pakistan. Looking at the history of the world - there is absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that the US will remain predominant and will not fail. Eventually. But like the wise man said "Who cares? In the long term we will all be dead"

Ironically it is only philosophies like Sanatana Dharma that take a longer time view of things that the short term views we see being used by the US all the time. But in this era those views are dismissed as "loser's views"

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 24 Feb 2011 18:58

^^^ The long primary season and two-term limit contributes to this...Ombaba's preparation for yet another election would start this summer or latest early-autumn if he is lucky.

But the remarkable political consensus that seems to exist on most matters of foreign policy keeps this trend in check.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 24 Feb 2011 19:24

@Shiv ^^^: "In the long term we will all be dead".

That wise man was Keynes who actually said: "The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is past the ocean is flat again."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes

I posit this corollary: "But, it's the short run that kills you. Manage the short term(s) so that you can live long enough to be dead in the long run."

As they say: "Life comes at you fast":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EKlZ3LerFo

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 24 Feb 2011 19:59

+1 Cosmo_R!

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 24 Feb 2011 21:10

RD interrogation video

The clip, whose authenticity U.S. officials do not dispute, according to The Washington Post, is a little less than two minutes long, and was shot from a low angle.

"I need to tell the embassy where I'm at," Davis can be heard saying. He tells the questioners his name is Raymond Davis, and that he is an American working for the embassy. "But my passport, my passport -- at the site I showed the police officer -- it's somewhere, it's lost."

He then specifies that he works for the consulate in Lahore, and shows his questioners what he says are ID badges from Islamabad and Lahore.

"I just work as a consultant there," Davis says about his role in Lahore.

"Can I sit down?" he then asks. The questioners offer him water, and he asks if they have a bottle.

"Can you search the car for my passport? Under the seat," Davis says at the end of the clip.

a debate on american public radio on this: on point - tom ashbrook

Guests:

Matthew Green, South Asia security correspondent for the Financial Times.

Mark Mazzetti, national security correspondent for the New York Times. He won the 2009 Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting for his coverage of America’s deepening military and political challenges in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Kateri Carmola, professor of political science at Middlebury College and author of the forthcoming book, “Private Security Contractors and New Wars: Risk, Law, and Ethics.”

Adil Najam, professor of international relations at Boston University and director of the university’s Pardee Center for the Study of the Longer-Range Future.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2011 21:21

menon s wrote:Pak intelligence ready to break ties with Washington.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05040.html

Nightwatch says:

Nightwatch-23 Feb 2011

Pakistan: The Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency's relationship with the CIA has been put into question after the shooting death of two Pakistanis by Raymond Davis, a contracted agent of the United States, according to an ISI statement. An unnamed ISI official said ISI had no idea who Davis was when he was arrested and that the ISI fears that there are hundreds of CIA-contracted agents operating in Pakistan without the knowledge of either the Pakistani government or the ISI.

The ISI knows and works with senior CIA officials in Pakistan, the official said, adding that it is upsetting that the CIA would secretly send other agents to Pakistan. The official said that the ISI is currently not talking to the CIA at any level, even the most senior level, and that in order to regain support and assistance from the ISI, the CIA must start showing more respect.

Comment: Statements to the media by anonymous ISI leakers are a reliable indicator of damage control by ISI which is a CIA off-shoot. ISI is going on the offensive to keep from having to answer inquiries why it did not know about and control the US agent. Crying foul about clandestine agents is a bit jejune for ISI but is makes for good press.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 24 Feb 2011 21:53

^^^ If ISI itself is splintered (say between fundoos and slightly-less-fundo), could this all be a manifestation of spy vs spy where both spy & spy are Pakistani?????

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 24 Feb 2011 21:54

Why racism? Why not call it an "analysis"?

Simply because the shagging twit who wrote this looks at one area of the world with people of a particular alien variety of people and believes that all these cattle who look alike and sound alike probably behave alike too. "Intellectual laziness" and "ignorance" are terms that are too sophisticated for blundering nincompoops like the bucket of freshly - flushed toilet effluent that wrote this article.

I see. Wasn't it the PM of India, the so called "intellectual" Economist, MMS who said that India's and TSP's destinies are linked? India cannot progress without making "piss" with TSP. India will go more than half way to appease TSP. This, even as TSP's terror as an instrument of state policy against India is relentless.

In a question I asked Sri Sri Ravishankar as to why it is that there is almost universal contempt for Hindu way of life, he didn't quite agree with me but reamrked that people only see you the way the you see yourself. Thus, if the PM of India cannot articulate an India nationalist POV, and instead mumbles "South Asia" brothrhood crap, why would the goras not lap that up with impunity, whose attitude towards Hinduism ranges from exotic curioisty to rabid hatred?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2011 22:06

CRS, Dragging in MMS in each and every post doesn't do any good. Having made your point its enough.

BTW one can argue that MMS by letting TSP bring up terror in TSP at SeS, as Indian hands were clean, made Pakis look at RD types! And now the two thieves are falling out. Sure its not by plan but that is the end result right?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 24 Feb 2011 22:57

menon s wrote:Pak intelligence ready to break ties with Washington.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05040.html

Oh so a statement prepared by ISI and "never released" by it somehow came to the possession of AP? If people believe that, I have a minar for sale in Lahore....

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 24 Feb 2011 23:43

ramana wrote:CRS, Dragging in MMS in each and every post doesn't do any good. Having made your point its enough.

BTW one can argue that MMS by letting TSP bring up terror in TSP at SeS, as Indian hands were clean, made Pakis look at RD types! And now the two thieves are falling out. Sure its not by plan but that is the end result right?

Not really boss, lets not read too much into RD. RD was basically trying to find out about pigLeT operations against goras in Afganisthan. This could have had the ancillary benefit to India, as pigLets are TSPA's key arsenal against India, and any US action against them will be detrimental to TSPA. And that was a red line too much that RD crossed, ISI pigs tail-gated him, and met their 72. But in a different sense you are right. Both are thieves in that they are playing a double game, TSP with US, and US with India.

On MMS, yes, but my point is that India is being screwed both internall and externally, and both feed of each other. If India wants US to back off on a "South Asia" game plan, it has to be India that opposes it first. And what are the chances of MMS showing some leadership on that?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 25 Feb 2011 00:06

Scholarly article, needs $ to read
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... =titlelink

The Changing Pakistan Army Officer Corps
Authors: C. Christine Faira; Shuja Nawazb

Abstract
The Pakistan Army elicits many concerns about terrorism, nuclear and the coherence of the state. However, very little is actually known about this institution. This article mobilizes unique data to address one important facet: the Army's geographical recruitment base. We find that the Pakistan Army has been successful at expanding the geographical recruitment base while some groups (namely those who are native to Sindh) remain highly under-represented. We also find that the officer corps is increasingly coming from urban areas. We conclude with a discussion of the implications of these important shifts subject to the limitations of our data.
Keywords: Pakistan Army; Changing Demographics; Pakistan Army Recruitment

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Feb 2011 00:07

A_Gupta Once the majority of the officers are sons of subedars we will see a change. Right now TSPA is a RAPE nurturing/holding tank.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 25 Feb 2011 00:54

A_Gupta wrote:Scholarly article, needs $ to read
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... link[quote]
The Changing Pakistan Army Officer Corps
Authors: C. Christine Faira; Shuja Nawazb

[/quote]

The entire article can be downloaded from this site in pdf format
http://www.humansecuritygateway.com/sho ... rdId=33435

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 25 Feb 2011 01:00

Comparing China vs US help to pakis is like asking to decide between two bowls of steaming sh!t. Not much differs except the smell. So I go with the decision based on "floater characteristics" - the one that is not going down after multiple flushes over 60 years is of course US.

shiv wrote: I don't think American presidents give a sh1t about what might happen after their watch as long as the appearance is like they managed things well. If they manage things well "who would argue" is a perfect expression to explain how they can go around doing absurd things like supplying nuclear delivery vehicles to Pakistan.

amen. All they care about is a second term and that "Presidential library" grant at the end of their term. So they pay off the wildest lot or sacrifice the harmless bunch to the most harmful, as an offering of peace. A "keep off my yard. Please?" hafta.

So pakis are safe from any POTUS. But POTUS finally approves all arms sales to pakis and that hurts India directly. All the arms sales they do to pakis are not just stuff that makes numbers go up, but enabler tech. Eg: no one really cares beyond a point about an airframe called F16. But add AMRAAMS, new radar sets, EW, Sniper ATP pod, JDAMs, spare engines and you got to be kidding me if anyone still asks Shiv-saar about what has US done for Pakis!!! Same for the 3 TPS-77s, Hawkeye 2000s, tons of APCs, tons of SPH, a frigate or two with land-attack VLS retrofit options, sneaky harpoon LACM upgrade blessings. Am not going into NVG, drone tech etc. All at bargain rates or free.

Take the above list and the US literally checkmated ColdStart on behalf of the pakis. What is the consequence for India? We, the citizens, get killed with impunity as the military threat is blunted

Compared to that, China let pakis test physics packages acquired with european tech and frigates/fighters of questionable technical merits or value. Third string stuff as per PAF's own preferences (khan and oiropeans being 1 and 2nd grade in their own ratings). But then compared to US, China atleast made pakis kill their own and Pashtun children in Lal Masjid. Just for targeting a piddly massage parlour. Sorry to say this, but to an Indian, the China's leadership comes across as more no-nonsense to the string of namby pamby POTUS. Basing a drone after paying off a local corpse commander and flying only at night to not awaken Kiyani is not equal to getting pakis themselves to assault Lal Masjid. US has yet to show that kind of resolve, despite loading them with dangerous heavy armaments that are targeted only at India's armed forces.

The "Chinese hurts us the most with nuke tech to pakis" is a dubious argument, as it completely masks US' role in the whole sordid saga. I heard no noise like what US makes of North Korea-China games, back in the 80s or even nowadays. No noises by US against the proliferating europeans too, other than some Global warming type complaints about "too much photocopy paper being used". Nor are they making noises now, when pakis are building questionable reactors and enrichment buildings like crazy. The US aided and abetted international nuke-proliferation's best documented First Degree murder. All for pakis. The chinese joined later, when they helped fine tune the crude weapons of the Pakis to fit the missiles they sold via NoKo and directly. That is the only time the pakis did not get what they wanted from US directly - because US has basic racist reasons for not handing over nukes to non-Anglos. Else I am 400% sure pakis would be threatening us with a W87 ("old compared to W88, wont upset India's supremacy") that got handed over as FMS from PANTEX's little barn in Amarillo.

There is another aspect to recent bunch of POTUS. Thanks to the "pre-existing senile" Reagan*'s (his Alzheimer's was hidden during his terms, as was stated by his own family) long brown skidmarks on the Presidential bedsheets at the white-house, everyone wants to stand like a prick on top of a broken berlin wall in their term and act out hammy speeches. Trouble is there are not enough Berlin walls and Israel ain't budging

So they improvise. They look around for tinpots that got rusty with too many previous POTUS peeing on it. They dont touch anyone that can willingly cause causalities above 100 US people at a time, in their own terms, but like Dick Cheney or Al Gore, will thump their chests after their term. Obama and Biden will do the same.

But they are very selective in picking up targets. Eg: to the current POTUS, that freakish gandoo Gaddafi must be like what, those multi-colored halwa they sell at Calicut railway station does to my sanity. a bit washed up compared to the olden days, but still squishy and tantalizing. Yet the train stops only for a few mins!!

Pakis, of course know POTUS fears, because every POTUS has called in pakis for "turning tricks" of roleplay kind for more then sixty years. As long as khan keeps doing this crappy bargain (they are doing it as we speak with Senor Raimundo), pakis are safe and Indians remain at danger. I blame this mainly to US voters being denied information that makes them ask common sense questions.

The only way forward for the world is for Pakis to be pakis and let the talibanization increase pace, that it finally results in mass non-Indian casualties. A sad and bitter conclusion, thanks to US.

____________
* OT, but Reagan is like a magical Dev Gowda, in whose term Pakistan imploded and China had a genuine democratic revolution that freed Tibet after a national rapprochement phase!!! If that happened, Shree Gowda would have been stuff of legends in India too, am sure. I would have been lighting agarbathis in front of technicolor portraits of a snoozing Shree Gowda, right next to Mammootty, Mohanlal and some item girl that came with the wallet

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 25 Feb 2011 01:17

My CT: Redmond Devis will be released in exchange for the silence of DCH

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Feb 2011 01:28

Hnair,
Awesome realist summary.