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AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the pictures that were found on his camera of facilities near the India border, photos of madrassas, as well?
DECLAN WALSH: Yeah, that’s right. There were a number of photos, I believe somewhere in the region of 15 or 18 photos found on his camera. Some of those photos were pictures of the people he killed during that roadside confrontation in Lahore. After shooting the two men dead, Davis stepped out of his car and took photographs of both of their bodies. And when the police looked at the camera, they also found a number of images that appear to have been taken, I believe, around Peshawar and also around Lahore.
Arrogant dude sits & clicks instead of running!
got to admire paki balls! Indian govt would have buckled without a protest if a US citizen was to open fire in india
Not only that, Indian government would have killed two more and taken pictures as well... just to show subservience to the Americans; meanwhile, while this would be going on MMS would be crawling around on all fours at 10 Janpath with an American flag between his teeth waiting for Amritraj (well, why not?) to throw it again so he could pick it up - on all fours.
About the photos taken, the only thing remaining is the discovery of a video of the american and his lady boss doing a "shake that bear" routine atop the dead pakis, then stick it in youtube. Both must have felt really good in bagging a paki or two in a John Deere cap-wearing fashion.
AdityaM wrote:Arrogant dude sits & clicks instead of running!
got to admire paki balls! Indian govt would have buckled without a protest if a US citizen was to open fire in india
I would say both RD and TSP have shown balls here.
As for Indian response, lets not kid ourselves. You saw how that thug Obama's spokesman Gibbs got away with his rowdy behavior. Even white Paki Ponting got away with breaking up a TV screen. Of couse India will show bravery of a different kind. Bakara and Rajdeep will hold shows on the details of the Vienna convention, diplomatic immunity bla bla and how India needs to uphold them as an impedning superpower of the 21st century. And MMS? He probably will address a nation, India that is which he gets to rule over, but will issue an apology to Americans for the pain and suffering caused.
JE Menon wrote:Not only that, Indian government would have killed two more and taken pictures as well... just to show subservience to the Americans; meanwhile, while this would be going on MMS would be crawling around on all fours at 10 Janpath with an American flag between his teeth waiting for Amritraj (well, why not?) to throw it again so he could pick it up - on all fours.
I mean these days on BRF if someone takes a dump on the moon, sooner or later the blame will find its way to MMS and the Sharm Al Sheikh statement. I meant it as a not so gentle caution to one-trick ponies who have little more to contribute other than repeat a list of MMS' apparent flaws, and repeat them again as a justification for a past mention - we might as well make it a sticky so we don't have to see this on every other thread (or at least it seems like that).
And yes, maybe a cartoon to go with that
In short, CRamS, you are on thin ice. You have plenty value to contribute. Why not do that without bringing in this MMS rubbish ad nauseam? What I'm trying to say is that it cannot be ad infinitum.
wonder when the Pawki links of this sheikh-chilli will come out
According to the FBI, Aldawsari wrote himself an email entitled “NICE TARGETS,” and then listed two types of targets: hydroelectric dams and nuclear power plants. In another email titled “Tyrant’s House,” he listed the address of Bush’s home.
Earlier this month, a chemical supplier reported his suspicions about Aldawsari to the FBI, after the man tried to buy large amounts of phenol, which can be used to make explosives. He had tried to have the chemical sent to a freight company, which refused it
JE Menon wrote:I mean these days on BRF if someone takes a dump on the moon, sooner or later the blame will find its way to MMS and the Sharm Al Sheikh statement. I meant it as a not so gentle caution to one-trick ponies who have little more to contribute other than repeat a list of MMS' apparent flaws, and repeat them again as a justification for a past mention - we might as well make it a sticky so we don't have to see this on every other thread (or at least it seems like that).
And yes, maybe a cartoon to go with that
In short, CRamS, you are on thin ice. You have plenty value to contribute. Why not do that without bringing in this MMS rubbish ad nauseam? What I'm trying to say is that it cannot be ad infinitum.
Don't you see? why are you shooting the messenger? if it weren't for MMS and Sharm Al Sheikh, there would be no one-trick ponies. BRF TSP thread pollution is because of MMS. So to be just, you should ban MMS from BRF.
Since MMS is not a member (I think) you should ban mention of MMS
I see so many opinions on India's 'interests', i could not but help commenting on it. Tens of millions in India want a version of their interests thrust down the throats of hundreds of millions of others. Yet doing so they have visions of grandeur, great economic well being and pride for the commoner. This obviously applies to even those who want a prominent Red or Greed on our flags. It even applies to the Musharaff's. Kiyani's, Guls, Begs in the Paki establishment. It applies to the EJ's too. Nothing is tainted or pointed so in their visions. The State apparatus does not make any effort to taint that vision. The promises always are milk and honey for some sacrifice, whether that sacrifice is loss of rights, or civilization or culture dating thousands of years. Too many people have fallen for that.
Defense of core civilizational values is way deeper than Roti, Kapda and stuff. Look at the way UK, France, Germany and Spain have made the first calls for 'civilizational' defense against Multicultaralism. A major part of our civilization which we as nerve center should have defended has already fallen. Afghanistan, Pakistan, BD, Tibet. The Red and Green flags fluttering all round and both cooperating quite plainly evident. And if they envison these flags fluttering on the ramparts of India's heart..they certainly have one certain aim: that of undermining India's core civilization. Not necessarily of undermining Roti, Kapda and Makaan. Despite the British living a century off India, Indians did'nt abandon their civilizational core, they did plenty of Roti, Kapda and Makaan. The humble Dhoti/ Lungi, simple Roti, simple dwelling became a sort of symbol of preserving/ defense of India's core.
Despite the knowledge some of our forefathers had that simple Roti, Kapda is Ok but it's abhorent to allow our core to be destroyed, they embraced ideologies that effectively did exactly that. Worse those that pretended defending that core turned out to be poor mirror images of an intolerant Green Islamist or carrying the prudent morality of the victorian era till date. The Civilizational debates like those the Shankaracharyas of yore indulged in got replaced with something more banal. Secularism started implying negation of Core civilizational values while coddling Pure Green and Red. The groups that defended the core..swore by Red economics and Green morality. This led to large numbers of people..the actual majority to veer away from all groups and swear only by pluralism, secularism and such. Thankfully that large group started debating on Psec'ism and embraced free market reforms. Today it's this group that quietly drives India's economy and brings it on the world stage.
Sadly India could not defend some of it's frontiers. Frontiers where we should have been to defend our fellow Dharmics over the last couple of hundred years. Tibet, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and now Nepal. We are losing the plot. It must never be nation state boundaries we cut ourselves to defend..it's much more. Spreading Dharma is the real "Jihad" for us and should be. Without going into the tenets of Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism etc we must defend the core that the majority believe in. Values like pluralism, Democracy and freedom of speech. India has to sweep the reds from not only India, but Tibet, Myanmar and the Greens from Afghanistan, Pakistan. MMS, SG and the average Psec will never defend our core. They might strengthen RKM a bit though in their transactional period as PM and power holders.
IMHO the debate between F-16's or Chinese supplied nukes is redundant till quite an extent. The idea of both is to influence shrinking of our civilizational boundaries. Some in the US have started realizing late that thats a bad idea. Some have realized that may be India could be used against the Reds up north. However once someone starts trying to shrink our civilizational boundaries and we do nothing, more temptations will follow. We will always be defending and defensive in our approach. That has got to reverse. People should not imagine that our core will go dead with the death of thousands a decade due to the F-16s or arms/ aid supplied by the US and 3.5, or the tens of millions that can get killed as a result of Red China supplying nukes to the Greens West of us. The debate and focus should be on the "muscular" spread of our liberal and pluralist thinking beyond our frontiers. Taking the fight to their heartlands every way we can. JMT/
Spread the geography of your influence and ONLY then can you own it. IN this case it's not just owning it, but making those that share your values feel they own it too. Thats why a protectorate like Bhutan is India's best friend in many ways. An independent Tibet as a protectorate would have been just that. China and Pak would be too distant and Chinese would nver have armed Paki's with Nukes if India was not their natural neighbour. our Psecs have abandoned our neighbours to the wolves in Green and Red.
"""We have abandoned our country to the Psecs. That is where we should start from"""
Yes indeed. We have to start from here, absolutely. We've abandoned half of Kashmir, planning to do the same with the other. Not sure about AP. We're pandering to the Reds on Buddhism. We're squandering Nepal away. Simply we've got our plate full now.
hnair wrote:So I go with the decision based on "floater characteristics" - the one that is not going down after multiple flushes over 60 years is of course US.
hnair, a fine piece, dripping with facts, wit, sarcasm and piercing commentary that a 'Westerner' can understand.
To add to what you said, I would say that the US (and the UK in the nascent stages) set the tone for the roguish behaviour of the Pakistani state in the initial 15 or 20 years of its existence by supporting their untenable stance, by equipping their military disproportionately and generally condoning their propensity for wrongdoing. The Pakistanis, already used to such thuggish behaviour from the tactics of the Muslim league in pre-independence India, simply have continued with the same ever since. By the time the the China-Pakistan nexus developed in the early 60s, the Pakistani behaviour had been well and truly set in concrete by the US. Later, with the Afghan jihad, it was taken to a new higher and irreversible level.
The media is going crazy accusing liberals of being fascists and attributing terrorist attacks to the US even when they are clearly carried out by the Taliban. There was such a crescendo of this kind of thinking among frothing TV anchors that the Taliban, sick of being called instruments of America’s anti-Muslim policy, decided to kill Col Imam to teach Pakistan a lesson. Col Imam was a semi-literate ISI officer who never tired of supporting the Taliban; the other ISI officer who was killed earlier was a pro-Taliban officer with added allegiance to Al Qaeda. The TV anchors should be careful linking the Taliban to the Americans and Indians. Hakimullah doesn’t like it!
I was going to ask "So what is the US going to do next" and I suddenly had an "aha!" moment. What the US does is unimportant. The way Americans are taught to think - it's a question of what the current American President does. What the Prez does is what the US does because of the respect and power the US President is endowed with in America. Nothing could be more different from India where the PM does not enjoy the automatic respect or power that the US President has and can do little without pulling the baggage he has to carry in the direction he wants to go. If the baggage does not move he does not move and the nation does not appear to go anywhere.
That explains the resident American citizen's obsession with presidential plans, presidential popularity and presidential elections and belief that an individual human's vision (as "President") sets the tone for the nation. That is certainly true for the US - so all we need to do is to see what Ombaba will do about Pakistan and what kind of mess he will leave for himself or his successor.
For the US, Pakistan is unimportant. AfPak, Iraq and Iran are important as are the economy and jobs in America. For Ombaba it is important that Pakistan does not gain any importance. As long as Pakistan can be kept as low priority issue for the next presidential race or beyond the Pakistan problem can be considered "solved" and history will not blame Ombaba. Loss of jobs in the US can cause loss of job for the President. India can be blamed (partly) for loss of jobs. China is doing all the manufacturing - so US citizens are not earning much from low end manufacture. However the US still rulez in aviation and military industry and exports create jobs - so India is important. In an ideal world India would not be able to take jobs out of America but yet have the dollars to pay America for arms. Like the brainless Saudis.
If India is in an arms build-up with regard to China one simple mechanism of making India want more arms urgently would be to utilise a nearby crisis other than China for India to buy arms. A few arms to Pakistan can be calibrated for India to contribute to the US economy.
Pakistan being a problem for India is:
1) India's problem
2) Not America's problem
As long as Pakistan remains low on the consciousness of the mango American the President can save his job, his reputation and mark his place in history. He has won the Nobel Peace prize remember. War won't look good so he will avoid confrontation. He will avoid making hard decisions today that might avoid a confrontation tomorrow. He will take the safe route and bribe the Pakistanis and save his own echandee. A country that had to avoid a war with Iran under madcap President Dubya is hardly likely to take on Pakistan. Pakistan will be given more under the guise of "Gratitude for cooperation against Al Qaeda" and for keeping Pakistani troops in Pakistani soil, not fighting anyone but sittting in camps far away from an enemy they claim they want to fight. Ombaba will sympathise with the Pakistani army and supply them with the arms they need to fight the big bad enemy next door. Davis will be allowed to fall off the front pages to a footnote and he will be released in due course.
Pakistan will fall when the US falls. The US will not allow Pakistan to go down. It is necessary, if possible, to create a confrontation between Pakistan and the US so they help each other go down. But most Indians will not accept this a a necessity. Karma really is a bitch. The chains of dhimmitude and Stockholm syndrome are too heavy. China has a good thing going in the sense that they single mindedly want to dominate. India on the other hand wants to co exist - not only with Pakistan, but with the US as well. But as long as the US survives as a power. Pakistan will survive.
hnair wrote:
Take the above list and the US literally checkmated ColdStart on behalf of the pakis. What is the consequence for India? We, the citizens, get killed with impunity as the military threat is blunted
Great points. But it will be remembered only for a few days. After 3-4 days, some people will start peddling the same untruths. And the circular discussion will continue ad nauseum. I am also waiting for some hypotheticals and counterfactuals.
arun wrote:Moving on to death and mayhem in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan seems that another round of target killing has commenced in Karachi starting on Saturday:
The blood letting continues in Karachi and judging by the victims likely to be case of Sub-Sectarian violence with Sunni Muslim Barelvi targeting Sunni Muslim Deobandi besides a dash of ethnic violence with Pushtun targeting Mohajir.
For a country justified on the bigoted idea of an exclusive Islamic identity, Pakistan has more than a fair share of other differences that frequently results in violence :
shiv wrote:The US will not allow Pakistan to go down.
This is especially true in the present circumstance. In the past few weeks, the US is increasingly finding itself on a sticky wicket with respect to the Arabic-speaking Muslim countries. The staunchest ally for several decades, Hosni Mubarak, has been dethroned. Bahrain is in the middle of turbulence and the Fifth fleet is based there. Saudi Arabia is waffling. Even a bitter-foe-turning-friend Qadhafi is being ousted in a bloody uprising. These uprisings, thought they may not install Islamist governments as replacements, may increase Islamist influence in these states leading to forcibly reduced support for the Americans from the rulers in the immediate future.
One of the reasons for the British support for Pakistan in early years was that it felt that any alienation of Pakistan would lead to a loss of leverage with the “Mussalman block” of the oil-rich Middle East which possessed the 'wells of power'. This also explains partly the blatant bias of the US for Pakistan during the formative years of India as Sir Olaf Caroe handed over the British protectorate in American hands. In later years, as the significance and power of Pax Britannica waned and Pax Americana took the central stage, Pakistan naturally hitched on to the US bandwagon.
Though the US developed its independent influence within the “Mussalman block” of West Asia, the currently developing situation may very well leave Pakistan as one of the only two friendly Muslim countries for a while, apart from Indonesia. The US may therefore be forced to play a friendlier game all over again with the Pakistanis.
It is ironic that in its life of 64 years, situations developed and sometimes were even contrived and then exploited by Pakistan to keep itself on the side of the Western powers to enjoy the benefits of the generous economic and military doles, which it then used against India.
SSridhar, I think US is re-architecting the Middle East and West Africa. I think we will see an Egyptian dawn in TSP also. And US wont stop it if it happens.
Ramana, I am unable to believe that the US, which is unable to influence even Iraq, and which is struggling in Afghanistan and Pakistan would be able to influence the course of events, let alone trigger them. Even if it were to be true, the change of power would not enhance American leverage in any of these countries.
As for TSP, it is my belief that a similar revolt may only enhance the more radical elements and bring them into the power structure. I would say that the US may not be able to stop it even if it wished.
"Where do you go to think seriously and bring sanity to a maddening situation? Far from the madding crowd to a peaceful Omani luxury resort of course. So that's what the military leadership of the US and Pakistan did," wrote Gen. Jehangir Karamat in a read out of the meeting obtained by The Cable and confirmed by a senior Pakistani official. Karamat is a former chief of Pakistan's army, and also served as Pakistan's ambassador to the United States from 2002 to 2004.
"The US had to point out that once beyond a tipping point the situation would be taken over by political forces that could not be controlled," Karamat wrote about the meeting, referring to the reported split between the CIA and the Pakistani Inter-services Intelligence (ISI) that erupted following the Davis shooting.
...
"The idea is to find a solution whereby the Davis incident does not hijack the U.S.-Pakistan relationship," the official said. The most probable outcome, the official explained, is that Davis would be turned over to the United States, following a promise from the U.S. government to investigate the incident.
U.S. officials implored the Pakistani military to step up its involvement in the Davis case, following the Pakistani government's decision to pass the buck to the judicial system on adjudicating Davis' claim of diplomatic immunity. However, their concerns also went beyond this most recent diplomatic spat.
"[T]he US did not want the US-Pakistan relationship to go into a free fall under media and domestic pressures," Karamat wrote. "These considerations drove it to ask the [Pakistani] Generals to step in and do what the governments were failing to do-especially because the US military was at a critical stage in Afghanistan and Pakistan was the key to control and resolution."
"The militaries will now brief and guide their civilian masters
SSridhar wrote:Ramana, I am unable to believe that the US, which is unable to influence even Iraq, and which is struggling in Afghanistan and Pakistan would be able to influence the course of events, let alone trigger them. Even if it were to be true, the change of power would not enhance American leverage in any of these countries.
As for TSP, it is my belief that a similar revolt may only enhance the more radical elements and bring them into the power structure. I would say that the US may not be able to stop it even if it wished.
Correct. US would not remove its puppets (what guarantee for next generation of puppet then ?). Who will then become a US puppet without any guarantees ? It is US impotence on public display for all to see.
PESHAWAR: Militants in northwestern Pakistan blew up at least 15 tankers carrying fuel for Nato troops in neighbouring Afghanistan Friday, killing four people, police said.
AdityaM wrote:got to admire paki balls! Indian govt would have buckled without a protest if a US citizen was to open fire in india
I strongly disagree. Indians still have balls, but of a different kind. They wouldnt let Yahoos inside India in the first place. That by itself would cause a huge outrage/uproar etc.
Look back at how ABV guvrmand handled request for Indian troops for Iraq.
Notice the statement: "The US had to point out that once beyond a tipping point the situation would be taken over by political forces that could not be controlled".
It basically means that US has all kinds of laws which can be used to punish Pakistan, but it is not using them due to strategic reasons. But if the Pakis decide to take on Americans, the US Congress will get the green signal and their lawyers will argue how Pakis are eligible for new sanctions everyday. This is similar to Paki nuclear proliferation when US laws were selectively used to advance their strategic interests (i.e., the laws were not used in any principled way.)
shiv wrote:The US will not allow Pakistan to go down. It is necessary, if possible, to create a confrontation between Pakistan and the US so they help each other go down. But most Indians will not accept this a a necessity. Karma really is a bitch. The chains of dhimmitude and Stockholm syndrome are too heavy. China has a good thing going in the sense that they single mindedly want to dominate. India on the other hand wants to co exist - not only with Pakistan, but with the US as well. But as long as the US survives as a power. Pakistan will survive.
Sir,
The way things are going, there is not much US would be able to do when this steaming piece of shit is ready to spontaneously flush itself down. The only mystery is whether MEA will en-cash this opportunity, call for India-Pak peace talks at the critical point, or just sleep through the whole thing as if nothing happened.
Last edited by Dhiman on 25 Feb 2011 10:17, edited 1 time in total.
SSridhar wrote:Ramana, I am unable to believe that the US, which is unable to influence even Iraq, and which is struggling in Afghanistan and Pakistan would be able to influence the course of events, let alone trigger them. Even if it were to be true, the change of power would not enhance American leverage in any of these countries.
As for TSP, it is my belief that a similar revolt may only enhance the more radical elements and bring them into the power structure. I would say that the US may not be able to stop it even if it wished.
SSridhar, Read this interview with late KS. We can discuss in off topic thread:
Can I toot my own horn? Or well maybe you guys can say that what I said was so obvious. Anyways, let me say it:
When the Raymond Davis scandal errupted, I asked on this forum why no amir khan news channel had shown any wife, relative, parent, sibling, friend, class-mate, etc. come to TV to ask for his rihai. None of the news reports even mentioned which state he was from. I asked because normally when amir khanis get caught in bad lands (No Korea, Iran, etc.), a very familiar series of events happen, among them is the rona-dhona of the wife, kids, and if he/she is from small town there is immense town people support.
For Raymond Davis, it was nothing. The amir khani media is pretty savvy, it knows when to blow stories, and when to suppress them. They try not to go afoul of the govt. line on foreign affairs by too much. There are self-accepted red-lines.
I asked on this forum, if anyone had You Tube videos or something for his relatives. I also wondered why any media people (TSP media also) not look up his records in US and simply contact his friends/wife/kids/co-workers.
The deafening silence was a give away.
Then we hear that the amir khani themselves admit that davis was a cia man. His name is not real either (I never thought it was). No photo of his appeared except for the one in plaid shirt when he was caught.
It was clear from the word go that he was a cia operative.
Well, you guys can say I am full of it and it was obvious, or you guys can say that what perceptive person I am. Your pick.
well I dont think anybody HERE would have disputed the fact that he was some sort of intel operative. normal tourists/businessmen/aid workers cannot take down 2 ISI agents with a pistol and then make an escape.
shravan wrote:Four dead in an attack on Nato convoy in Peshawar
PESHAWAR: Militants in northwestern Pakistan blew up at least 15 tankers carrying fuel for Nato troops in neighbouring Afghanistan Friday, killing four people, police said.
Looks like the "secret" meeting did not go off too well ...
Meanwhile:
China, Pakistan to consolidate friendship, deepen co-op
: