Indian Space Program Discussion

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Apr 2011 12:45

ISRO would need 3-4 successful launches to prove the consistency and reliability of its CUS engine on GSLV.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 11 Apr 2011 12:59

SRO was confident enough to actually fly their CUS. That in itself tells us that they thought they were ready.
News reports talk of how they delayed that GSLV launch, and tested and re-tested the CUS, before they gave the green light to the flight.

To me that means that they understand the science well and were reasonably confident that the engine they had produced would deliver.

What happened was an accident, some manufacturing deficiency, some material defect that the pump jammed.

This to me seems more like some minor niggling problem that they will overcome.

The other thing that worries me a little is that ISRO is now developing two GSLV launchers simultaneously - Both the GSLV-II and the GSLV-III are being readied. Makes me wonder if they'll get to Mark-III, when even Mark-II is having problems with the CUS.

cryo upper stage programe is complete but the jamming of booster pump is being looked into and rectification program is on. I think they should have had a high altitude test facility for the CUSP project also like they having for Mark 3

The cryo engine for mark 3 has made serious progress - turbo pump testing is over - thrust chamber testing is due in few months -the cryo engine injector assembly is ready - the facility for C-25 testing is getting ready . Wish could give more details - shall have to ask - the new systems include several high end cryogenic exchangers like liquid hydrogen to helium heat exchanger -liquid hydrogen bath -eextra large dia liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen piping etc

Semi cryo in fact is a much much bigger and more complex project -mainly becasue the operating pressure is 200+ bar -so handling lox at 200+ bar the tanks the pipeline is big problem . so think ISRO did right tackling it later .Even the flow rates are astronomical so the size of the heat exchangers required to cool the test fluid to liquid nitrogen temperature is unheard off and trying to think how to accommodate in a single vacuum jacket or multiple jacket and problems like this are many

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Apr 2011 13:09

Shukriya Shankar-da,

Please ask the powers that be if you can release more info.
It will be really nice to get updates on things as and when they happen. It'll be really nice if you could continue to educate even non technical jingos with nontechnical-language updates.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 11 Apr 2011 13:15

There is some justification in the general criticism that Indian research/scientific organizations make tall promises which then they struggle to meet even decades later. I think the development of the cryogenic engine was underestimated. But, Glavkosmos was supposed to do a total ToT and hold our hand too in establishing critical manufacturing technology. Even then, it might have been a tall order. And then, a bankrupt Russia was buffeted by a rampaging USA that put spokes in the deal and Glavkosmos simply capitulated. India was left high and dry.

True.. but we also need to remember the planted Spy case which screwed up a few careers. Nambinarayanan was the key person behind liquid propulsion and his exit due to spy case was a major factor in delaying our cryogenic engine project.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 11 Apr 2011 23:53

Austin wrote:
I quite remember the time when US sanctioned India and Russia on the cryoengine deal , the then ISRO chairman (was it UR Rao ) mentioned that India would make its own cryo in 5 years time and PVN made similar statement in the house.

Its almost 15 plus years since then and we are still in the process to perfect the technology , seems ISRO either underestimated the effort involved or it was a political statement to cool the sentiments prevailing at that time.

U R Rao had also said that GSLV would be fully operational and a proven platform by 2000. It's still not reached that goal. The upper stage has essentially been the Achilles' heel of the project.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 17 Apr 2011 13:56

Isro Manned space mission could be delayed because of cryogenic engine failures

India’s major space missions, including the manned flight scheduled for 2016, could be delayed because of the failure of Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) to develop cryogenic engine required for putting heavy satellites into orbit.

With 4 years to go for manned mission , i think we still have sufficient time to rectify all evils plaguing the last stage of GSLV mk2. With GSLV mk3 also slated for 2013? launch inshallah we will have a working duo of launchers with MK3 doing the heavy lifting and mk2 doing the manned launches something like the Proton-soyuz combo russia has today.

Don · Post by **Don** » 17 Apr 2011 14:42

Arunkumar wrote:Isro Manned space mission could be delayed because of cryogenic engine failures

India’s major space missions, including the manned flight scheduled for 2016, could be delayed because of the failure of Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) to develop cryogenic engine required for putting heavy satellites into orbit.
With 4 years to go for manned mission , i think we still have sufficient time to rectify all evils plaguing the last stage of GSLV mk2. With GSLV mk3 also slated for 2013? launch inshallah we will have a working duo of launchers with MK3 doing the heavy lifting and mk2 doing the manned launches something like the Proton-soyuz combo russia has today.

Interesting, the article above posted by Arunkumar quoted Morris Jones. He earlier wrote an article about this very subject and he suggested if things don't work out with GSLV perhaps ISRO may consider launching its indigenous orbital vehicle atop a foreign rocket.

http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Ind ... t_999.html

Indonauts Must Wait For A Better Rocket

by Morris Jones

Sydney, Australia (SPX) Jan 13, 2011

The 2010 Christmas Day failure of India's Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle was a sad blow to India's space program. ISRO, India's space agency, lost a rocket and a major satellite. There's an obvious need to plan a replacement for the lost bird, and debug the problems that caused the failure. Beyond this, there could be further implications. The loss of this rocket will have an influence on India's fledgling human spaceflight program.

India announced plans for a space capsule in 2008, and planning has gone on without much comment ever since. The capsule is a blunt, conical spacecraft with a cylindrical service module. It's designed to carry up to three astronauts. The generically dubbed "orbital vehicle" is designed to be launched by a modified version of the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle, the same rocket that recently failed.

Sadly, this is not the first time that GLSV has failed. Out of a total of seven launches, only two are judged to be complete successes. Four were unquestionable failures (including both of the launch attempts in 2010). One 2007 flight is judged to be a partial failure, placing a satellite in the wrong orbit.

Clearly, ISRO does not plan to simply bolt a spacecraft atop the GLSV as we currently know it and blast an astronaut into space. There will be modifications to the vehicle and testing. But the appalling performance record of the GSLV will complicate attempts to use it for human missions.

The process of certifying a rocket as fit for carrying astronauts is known (with some lingering sexism) as "man rating". Much of this process involves building up a high expectation of reliability, demonstrated in test flights.

Man rating also involves the addition of extra safety systems, such as escape rockets for the crew capsule. There will also be modifications to some regular components to ensure a higher chance of success. Issues such as acceleration levels and the acoustic and vibrational environment also play a part. Clearly, getting a launch vehicle man rated is far more complex than certifying a launch of a satellite.

Man rating is also a subjective process. Reliable figures for the projected failure rates of certain launch vehicles can be difficult to estimate. Sure, there can be test missions and calculations, but these can still be off the mark. The safety levels and risks that managers are prepared to accept are also matters of personal judgment.

India has marked 2016 as a possible target date for its first manned space mission. If ISRO hopes to launch in roughly five years, it will need to produce some miracles of engineering. Building the spacecraft is one thing. This will be complex, but it's probable achievable in the time frame. The greatest challenge of all will be taming the rocket to launch it.

Apart from the rather poor track record of GSLV launches, another problem is at play. The GLSV has gradually evolved over the course of its launches. The most recent GSLV is substantially different from the first.

These changes have been good in principle, and have focused on improving the rocket and phasing in indigenous technology. In practice, the numerous changes make it hard to generate a reliable statistical base for the overall launch campaign. Can earlier launches truly be used to evaluate the reliability of a new model of the rocket?

In some ways, this "apples and oranges" problem makes things look good. Some of the earlier failures can be written off as teething troubles with a new and unevolved prototype. In other ways, it looks even worse.

The failure rate of more advanced versions of the rocket remains high, and the overall statistical base is even smaller. Furthermore, failures seem to happen for different reasons on different launches. This could suggest problems with multiple sub-systems, which further complicates the debugging process.

Man rating the GSLV will require ISRO to settle on a design and test it extensively, demonstrating a good performance record. This will require a lot of work to make the rocket more reliable, and a high flight rate in the years ahead.

At the present, it's not exactly clear how ISRO is planning to deploy the GSLV in the years ahead, but it seems that 2011 will be free of any launches while the recent failures are digested.

Many payloads are earmarked for GSLV launches in 2012 and beyond, with a rough average of four launches per year expected. Any more than three failures in the next five years will seriously compromise faith in this launch system.

Beyond showing that GSLV can be trusted as a satellite launcher, ISRO will need to test the capsule and the modified GSLV that will launch it on several uncrewed test flights. How will these be integrated into the overall launch manifest for the decade ahead? How many flights will be needed? These are unresolved issues.

Ultimately, India may find itself placing the cart before the horse. An Indian space capsule may be ready for action, but the GSLV could still be unfit to launch it.

In such a case, ISRO may wish to compromise by launching its indigenous orbital vehicle atop a foreign rocket. If this path is not taken, and if the GSLV does not prove its worth in the years ahead, then India's astronauts will be waiting for their flights for a very long time.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Apr 2011 15:14

India to launch 5 satellites by June

The first launch, scheduled for April 20, will be of Resourcesat-2, intended for study and management of natural resources and sending back pictures and other data, and two other satellites.

ISRO will then launch two communication satellites - GSAT-8 from French Guyana and GSAT-12 from India - by June this year. These will serve the needs of the telecommunication and television sectors.

Speaking to IANS, an ISRO official, who did not want to be named, said GSAT-8 will augment the growing demand for communication transponders (automatic receivers and transmitters for communication and broadcast of signals).

With India in the process of developing a rocket that could carry a three-tonne satellite, GSAT-8 will be launched by Ariane rocket from French Guyana some time this May.

Following that will be the launch of GSAT-12 using the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) from ISRO's rocket port at Sriharikota in Andhra Pradesh, around 80 km from Chennai.

Weighing 1,425 kg, GSAT-12, with 12 extended C band transponders, is expected to be launched some time in June.

The satellite is expected to serve the Very Small Aperture Terminal ( VSAT )) sector, used to transmit data like point of sale transactions or to provide satellite internet access and others.

Though PSLV rockets are largely used by ISRO to launch remote sensing/earth observation satellites, it has also been used to put into orbit communication satellites in geo transfer orbit (GTO).

According to ISRO officials, the PSLV rocket that will carry GSAT-12 will weigh over 300 tonnes - heavier than the standard PSLV rocket that weigh around 290 tonnes at lift off.

The rocket will be powered with much longer strap-on motors containing more fuel.

ISRO is also mulling the launch of another remote sensing satellite, Megha-Tropiques in July, to study and understand the life cycle of convective systems and their role in the associated energy and moisture budget of the atmosphere in the tropical regions.

Pre-launch work is on at Sriharikota for the April 20 flight of the PSLV that will carry three satellites - the 1,200 kg Resourcesat-2 satellite, the 92 kg joint Indo-Russian nanosatellite Youthsat for stellar and atmospheric studies, and a 105 kg microsatellite X-sat for imaging applications, built by the Singapore-based Nanyang Technological University.

"Everything is progressing well and the launch will be at 10.12 a.m.," S. Satish, ISRO's director, Publications and Public Relations, told IANS.

Resourcesat-2 was originally scheduled for launch in January this year but got postponed to February and then to April.

Not wanting to risk a failure, the Indian space agency decided to test a gas motor fitted in the second stage/engine, powered by liquid fuel, for high temperature tolerance levels after dismantling the fully assembled rocket.

This was the second time within an year that ISRO has dismantled a fully-assembled PSLV rocket to check out a component in the rocket's second stage.

Last April, prior to the launch of Cartosat-2B satellite and a couple of other payloads, the rocket was dismantled to replace a faulty component.

The 44-metre tall PSLV is a four-stage (engine) rocket powered by solid and liquid propellants alternatively. The first and third stages are fired by solid propellant and the second and fourth stages are fired by liquid propellant.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 17 Apr 2011 15:40

He earlier wrote an article about this very subject and he suggested if things don't work out with GSLV perhaps ISRO may consider launching its indigenous orbital vehicle atop a foreign rocket.

Wonder Morris Jones is anyway related to Phillip Morris. Smokes pretty potent stuff.
An orbital vehicle is not a dumb satellite that can just sit on a Rocket which will launch it. It is very much part of the entire vehicle control system that it is designed for and in this case it is the gslvmk2. The entire system is man-rated and not a certain part.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 17 Apr 2011 18:15

Countdown for PSLV C16 launch to begin Monday.

The countdown for the April 20 launch of the country's latest remote sensing satellite Resourcesat-2 and two small spacecraft on board PSLV C16 rocket from the Sriharikota spaceport, 90 km from here, will begin on Monday.

With the Launch Authorisation Board for the mission giving its green signal at its meeting at Satish Dhawan Space Centre at Sriharikota on Saturday, the 54-hour long countdown will commence at 4.12 am on Monday.

The 98 kg YOUTHSAT, an Indo-Russian satellite for stellar and atmospheric studies and 106 kg X-SAT, a microsatellite for imaging applications built by Nanyang Technological University Singapore, will also be placed in orbit.

The LAB cleared the launch of PSLV-C16 at 10:12 hrs on April 20 after reviewing readiness of the launch vehicle, spacecraft systems and ground stations, an Indian Space Research Organisation statement said on Sunday.

The ISRO built 1,206-kg RESOURCESAT-2 is an advanced remote sensing satellite to facilitate study and management of natural resources.

During countdown, propellant-filling operations of liquid propellant second stage (PS2) and fourth stage (PS4) of the launch vehicle will be carried out, ISRO said.

Mandatory checks on the launch vehicle and spacecraft - including charging of batteries and pressurisation of propellant tanks will also be performed, besides checking the readiness of launch infrastructure and communication networks.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Apr 2011 20:16

I would say ISRO needs to get consecutive 4 to 5 launch success with the Indian Cryo Engine and the vehicle as a whole before they qualify the vehicle for manned mission , its better to prove the reliability of the rocket with consecutive launches that should give good confidence for any manned mission.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Apr 2011 21:59

I guess ISRO is taking the mission to encourage space studies in non space power countries. This is use to be a NASA mission, but no longer.
Is it me or GSAT-12 all up weight is quite low compared to earlier ones?

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 17 Apr 2011 23:28

Arunkumar wrote: With 4 years to go for manned mission , i think we still have sufficient time to rectify all evils plaguing the last stage of GSLV mk2. With GSLV mk3 also slated for 2013? launch inshallah we will have a working duo of launchers with MK3 doing the heavy lifting and mk2 doing the manned launches something like the Proton-soyuz combo russia has today.

Even if the HSF program is sanctioned this year I don't think we would launch an Indian into space before 2019-2020 (that is if everything goes according to plans). A proven/reliable GSLV is a important requirement but certainly not the only requirement. The amount of work that needs to be done to human rate the vehicle is immense (and we are keeping NASA human rating requirements as standard). The work on LES and it's testing will also take a significant amount of time. The OV has to be ready in time. IMHO it needs 9-10 years.

ramana wrote:Is it me or GSAT-12 all up weight is quite low compared to earlier ones?

It's based on a different bus. All GSATs launched until now were based on I-2K while GSAT-12 is based on I-1K. There are also GSATs based on I-3K and I-4k in the fabrication stage.

More info: http://www.antrix.gov.in/sss_systems.html

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Apr 2011 07:26

All set for PSLV-C16 Launch on April 20 - TSS in The Hindu

Photo Gallery - ISRO

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 18 Apr 2011 21:14

KrishG wrote: .....
Even if the HSF program is sanctioned this year I don't think we would launch an Indian into space before 2019-2020 (that is if everything goes according to plans). A proven/reliable GSLV is a important requirement but certainly not the only requirement. The amount of work that needs to be done to human rate the vehicle is immense (and we are keeping NASA human rating requirements as standard). The work on LES and it's testing will also take a significant amount of time. The OV has to be ready in time. IMHO it needs 9-10 years.
.......

Isnt the Human Space Flight already sanctioned in 2009. AL-Link

I agree work is immense, but some aspects like de-orbiting and re-entry via SRE-1 & 2. have already been demonstrated.
I expect one more cryo to go ka-boom before we are finally there.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 18 Apr 2011 23:43

Arunkumar wrote:Isnt the Human Space Flight already sanctioned in 2009. AL-Link

I am talking about cabinet approval which is the last and most important step. Any ISRO program has to be first approved by the Space Commission and Planning Commission before going for cabinet approval. The full HSF program (total of 12,000 crores in diff stages) still hasn't received cabinet approval since 2009.

Arunkumar wrote:I agree work is immense, but some aspects like de-orbiting and re-entry via SRE-1 & 2. have already been demonstrated.
I expect one more cryo to go ka-boom before we are finally there.

Technology demonstration is different from developing and testing actual mission hardware.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 19 Apr 2011 02:02

Production of systems for satellites to be increased

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The ISRO Inertial Systems Unit here will step up production of systems for satellites and launch vehicles because of ISRO's plan to increase the frequency of satellite launches to meet the rising demand.
...
G. Ravindranath, who recently assumed charge as Director of the ISRO Inertial Systems Unit, said that besides the production of inertial systems, the fabrication of solar arrays and instruments for satellites was being stepped up.
...

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 20 Apr 2011 07:37

and the day has arrived.keeping fingers crossed.all the best ISRO.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Apr 2011 08:14

What time is the launch?
Any weblinks?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Apr 2011 08:31

Gagan, launch at 10:12 AM, in about an hour's time.

From The Hindu by TSS,

Resourcesat-2 has an additional payload called Automatic Identification System from Canada. This can provide information on the position of ships, their speed etc. The satellite has a mission life of five years.

Meanwhile, here is an ISRO brochure about PSLV-C16

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Apr 2011 09:33

It is Live on DD National. 6 Minutes to go.

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 20 Apr 2011 09:44

Friends,
launch status update please.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 20 Apr 2011 09:44

Launch successful. Congrats India

P.S. but raaket is ezz 3rd stage now.

rahuls · Post by **rahuls** » 20 Apr 2011 09:45

Currently, Second in second stage, Heat shield separated

manoba · Post by **manoba** » 20 Apr 2011 09:46

DD live streaming: http://webcast.gov.in/live/

PS3 performance normal.

rahuls · Post by **rahuls** » 20 Apr 2011 09:47

PS3 seperated

rahuls · Post by **rahuls** » 20 Apr 2011 09:48

PS -4 ignited successfully

manoba · Post by **manoba** » 20 Apr 2011 09:49

PS3 seperation successful. PS4 engine has been ignited successfully. PS4 performance normal.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Apr 2011 09:49

PS-4 performance normal. It has been copybook launch so far. The next important event is PS4 cutoff.

rahuls · Post by **rahuls** » 20 Apr 2011 09:52

I don't know if people agree with me but this Mr. Pallav Bagla talks too much.

rahuls · Post by **rahuls** » 20 Apr 2011 09:57

Resourcesat placed successfully in orbit

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Apr 2011 09:57

Resourcesat 2 separated. Looks like a very good orbital insertion.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 20 Apr 2011 09:58

Payload delivered. Mission Successful

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 20 Apr 2011 09:58

resourcesat,youthsat and xsat seperated!!

rahuls · Post by **rahuls** » 20 Apr 2011 09:58

Youthsat and Xsat seperated

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Apr 2011 09:58

Mission announced successful as the other two satellites are also orbited.

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 20 Apr 2011 09:58

congratulations ISRO!!

manoba · Post by **manoba** » 20 Apr 2011 09:59

Mission successful. Congrats to all.

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 20 Apr 2011 10:01

Happy ISRO and well wishers.

saip · Post by **saip** » 20 Apr 2011 10:02

Congratulations, ISRO!