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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2010 11:45 
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FalconAJ wrote:

<SNIP>

So can someone shed some light on how that problem be solved? Actually from my gut feel i see this to be a 'very small' issue. Has this issue been blown out of proportion? or is it really this big? Can't a country that spends $1.23 billion on buying tanks spend a few more bucks to buy rail carriages?

And if push comes to shove, Cant we have a standard Arjun issue rail carriage that can be used to replace all other tank carriages?


Front this link:

http://frontierindia.net/arjun-mbt-weight-implications

Quote:
The existing BWTA wagons have pay load capacity of 60+ tons ; the Arjun weighs 58.5 tons. The only issue is that the width of the tank is more than that of the flat and so, the tracks protrude on both sides. A six inch wooden sleepers when placed on the floor of the wagons before loading the Arjun MBT ensures that the tank tracks move over adjacent platforms without fouling with them. With this arrangement Arjun MBT’s were moved as class ‘A’ ODC on Chennai-Delhi, Delhi-Suratgarh, Delhi-Jaiselmer, Chennai-Balasore and Balasore-Delhi lines, on several occasions


Quote:
In addition, Ministry of Railways, RDSO, Lucknow were approached in 1992 to conduct a feasibility study for rail transportation of MBT Arjun. The study was based on a two pronged approach i.e. design of a new wagon and modification of existing BWTA wagon. The feasibility report was submitted along with all-India broad gauge railway maps showing sectors where the loaded wagon could move as class ‘A’ ODC and the empty wagon could be run as non-ODC. In consonance, the Army HQ, Q Move (Rail) approved both proposals. The RITES / Texmaco team has delivered prototypes of the new wagon for field trials in 2006, it has been proposed that the case for modification to existing BWTA wagons be foreclosed because the population of the new rail wagons can comfortably match the production schedule of the Arjun MBT.


Hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2010 18:57 
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Was just talking with my Google chachu, when he showed me this awesome book in a shop called Amazon. Seems to a be a good read on the concepts of military logistics.
The Link to the shop


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 19:48 
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Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
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Location: Pakistan Painindabutt.
:rotfl:
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/11/n ... g-112910w/
Quote:
JSF engine too big for regular transport at sea

Regular wear and tear, as well as mishaps such as an engine sucking a foreign object off a carrier deck, make the availability of replacement aircraft engines critical. High-tempo combat operations only increase the need. Carriers typically pack spares, but heavy demand can drain those stores, requiring at-sea replenishment.

However, the F-35C’s Pratt & Whitney F135 engine, contained in its Engine Shipping System, is too large for the cargo door on a standard carrier onboard delivery plane and for the V-22 tilt-rotor aircraft, the program office acknowledged in a response to a follow-on query from Navy Times. The engine can be broken down into five component parts, but just its power module and packaging alone won’t fit into the COD or the V-22.

The JSF Program Office says the V-22 Osprey, like the MH-53E helicopter, can externally carry the F135 engine module, the heaviest of the five components, at least 288 miles “in good weather.”

One outside analyst, Jan van Tol of the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, wondered how the Osprey, in hover mode, could safely lower the module to the flight deck or pick up an out-of-service engine in higher sea states, given the heavy downdraft the aircraft’s 38-foot rotors generate when the engine nacelles are in the vertical position. When so positioned, with the aircraft hovering over the flight deck, the rotor wash can also affect sailors standing nearby – particularly those attaching the load sling, van Tol said. The GAO reported in 2009 that during shipboard exercises, the V-22’s downwash was so severe that in one instance, a sailor was directed to hold in place the sailor serving as the landing guide.

Heat could also be a problem. Depending on the amount of heat generated, sailors involved in sling operations could possibly be forced to wear heat-resistant suits, van Tol said.

Moreover, the Navy has no fleet V-22s and has no plans to acquire them.

<snip>

The 9,400-pound engine module and transport container also cannot not be transferred from a supply ship to a carrier during underway replenishments — when two ships are sailing side-by-side and connected by supply lines — because, Kennedy said, “It’s too heavy for the unrep station.”



er what was that someone said of the Arjun and bridges. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2010 23:37 
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Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17
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Kersi D wrote:
In one of the books, either Into the Storm or Every Man a Tiger, Tom Clancy stresses the importance of logistics during the GW I. It was then I realised the importance of logistics in warfare.

K


Also in "Bear and the Dragon" where US helps Russia fight invading chinese forces.


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 18 May 2011 13:43 
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Location: Pakistan Painindabutt.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=14759
Quote:
Sources said better road management, better offloading, better rail links, equipment and man management, have reduced the mobilisation time. Every strike corps has been working at reducing its own mobilisation period.

Sources said timings may differ for armoured units and artillery units and also what matters is the place and terrain from where they move, like the Dehradun-based 14 Division is a hilly terrain and the Patiala-based 1 Division is farthest when compared to the deserts, where ‘Vijayee Bhava’ was carried out.

Movement is carried out in four phases which are command elements, reconnaissance, main body and balance.

Command elements comprising the formation commanders earlier used to take eight hours which was now been brought down to two hrs.

Reconnaissance comprising two officers, the second in command of the Brigade and the mobile operations, used to take 12 hours which has been brought down to six hours.

The main body of the formation comprises all the three units in the Brigade and their administration and logistics, which used to take 18 hours earlier, has now been brought down to 12 hours.

The remaining of the troops were given 30 hours, as opposed to their 36 hours.

The mission was successful, with all the units of the 60 Brigade meeting at the destined point in 45 hours, and another couple of hours for a final check. The distance covered was around 450 kilometers, and approximately 3500 personnel moved on road, on transportation that was either hired or were army trucks.

A Division has three Brigades in it, and for a complete Division to mobilise, another 10 hours could be added to this, said asource, but for a fighting unit formation, Vijayee Bhava has proved that the target of 48 hours can be achieved.

Support elements, like engineers, logistics, doctors, medical care, artillery, and other administrative items also move along, all of which take time to fall in place. ‘Vijayee Bhava’ also tested the advanced version of the indigenous Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), with a glass cockpit.


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 18 May 2011 14:11 
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Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
hopefully a continuous process, with goals of 12 -> 8 -> 6 -> 4 hrs in coming years. not everything needs to reach the border at the same time, just some of the teeth, followed in nice order by the tail and rest of teeth.

better we build up road and rail the easier to do all this and mask our intentions.

btw TOI reports today that efforts are on to 'placate' sher khan over the MRCA deal and smooth over the recent 'tensions'
- GOI has sent them a message that FMS deals will go on
- IA team is flying to sher khanland to do some QC/study of XM777 howitzer parts and deal to be inked soon
- around 5-7 more C-17s will be purchased and cleared at highest levels in principle


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 18 May 2011 15:51 
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BRFite

Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
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Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Noob Pooch..
The time calculated is for movement from where to the front??? And also is the number solely based on the time taken to move things by road/rail???


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 18 May 2011 18:45 
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BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 04 Feb 2011 14:20
Posts: 41
Logistics or Supply Chain Managment is the most important and critical element in winning the war. "Reinforcement" is an often used word in warfare that can only be achieved with sound Logistics. If one really wants to know more specifically about Military Logistics, one must read " Moving the mountains" by Gus Pagonis. Gus was in-charge of the Logistics division during Operation Desert Storm in 1991. If one thinks that it was Colin Powell or Norman Schwarkopf who won that war, he is wrong. It actually was Gus who won the war for the Coalition forces.

We have also, at last,woken up to the fact that rapid deployment of the reserved forces along the border is paramount. The recent exercise "Vijayee Bhav" conducted in Rajasthan desert had one specific agenda among several others-to check our efficiency in mobilising the resources. I think, we have done far better this time as we have been able to mobilise our resources from Ambala to Jaisalmer in 48 hours flat. It is a good sign but we have a long way to go.
The real fun begins when we become the real superpower like US and our ambitions become global. That's where a true blue-water Indian Navy will play a critical role to enhance our logistical activities. Super Hercules, Globemaster, Chinook are fine but what we need is more of "Jalashwaya" in the days to come.


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 18 May 2011 20:15 
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Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28
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Location: Cave of the Saffron Bandits
imagine how much faster deployment would be if we had a decent highway network?


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 18 May 2011 20:33 
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Why do you think the Golden Quadrilaterral project ofr highway linking was launched under a retired brigadier?


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 18 May 2011 20:50 
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BRFite

Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Posts: 604
Location: still settling...
how much logistics part can be given to private firms...like wipro, these firms specially deal in logistics part of hardware operation like dell...

How much US forces logistics part is taken care by private firms...?
what are the possibilities here?


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 18 May 2011 21:46 
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Joined: 20 Sep 2010 06:47
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ramana wrote:
Why do you think the Golden Quadrilaterral project ofr highway linking was launched under a retired brigadier?


If we're thinking of the same man, it was a Major General, I think.

But your point is valid, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 19 May 2011 10:20 
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Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
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Gentlemen, that report of X hours of mobilization was for an Brigade level force. One cannot mobilize and move an entire Corps to battle area in 48hours - for a simple reason that Corps, and that too something like 2 Strike Corps, is a huge-huge entity. What we may be targeting it to position some strike elements from these formation in double-quick time on border/their jump-off points.


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 19 May 2011 11:24 
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Joined: 18 May 2005 20:19
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Sappers are very heavy to move. Generally Sapper officers and Jawans are attached to moving infantry and Armored columns. This is generally to take care of the mines.

Moving Engineers with bridge building or blasting materials is extremely cumbersome. So their movement is more or less decided in planning stages only.

Also the forward thrust is decided keeping in mind the movement of Supplies. Securing bridges, is almost always a top priority for Strike force.

Other than that there are huge logistics assets with ASC (Army supply corp), even peace time movements of Regiments and formations are handled by these guys.

Also we should analyze the Logistic of Kargil war and current Siachen. One of the reason why highways in Punjab and Haryana are so good because Defense plays a large part in maintenance of these highways. During Kargil conflict, all civilian movements on some of the highways were banned.


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 19 May 2011 11:32 
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Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
per a tidit on Brf - khan has moved out of process of sinking borewells on the march or installing portable surface water purification plants or potable water tankers or filter tablets for its army. they supply bottled water packaged in commercial style pallets everywhere and thats it. most of their troops buy the 'camelback' water kits and sipping pipe on their own money.

reports spoke of some troops developing urinary stones from too much minerals in these mineral water though - a problem easily fixed at the headend of supplier.

if you look at regular troops eating here, its all bottled water or cans of drink. hence water logistics is folded within any other thing like supplying pallets of goods and no special people or eqpt needed.

http://www.defenselink.mil/dodcmsshare/ ... F-002a.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_sDNF3ISY3Dw/Rs7_c ... 4L-020.JPG


Last edited by Singha on 19 May 2011 11:36, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 19 May 2011 11:35 
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Joined: 04 Feb 2011 14:20
Posts: 41
There will always be a debate between highways and Rail Network as fas as the deployment of the forces is concerned. I would anytime prefer Rail as it is hassle-free, not affected by road traffic problems, it runs faster and the manpower can really stratch their legs and bodies in the compartment which they can not do inside Military buses and trucks. But, Rail network itself is a bit of a problem in India even today. Do you know that Delhi-Jaipur (Via Gurgaon, Rewari and Alwar) train still have to ply on a single track. Any deployment on the western front (Rajasthan desert) have to take this train route and until this is upgraded to double track, the forces can not be deployed at a rapid pace. The good thing is that the work is going on to upgrade this to double track.

Manum:
With respect to the third party logistics (3PL), we have a lot of examples wherein 3PL are providing the good service to a lot of priavte sector organisation. For example, Tata's 3PL provider is DRIVE INDIA while Nokia has a national level-up tie-up with HCL to distribute and appoint the retail partners for the mobile phones. Can 3PL provide the same kind of a services to the forces.....that remains to be seen? They may provide the solutions to transport the lighter material but when it comes to transporting the big boys like Tanks and Artillary equipments, nothing comes close to Indian Railways.

Ramana:
It was Major General Bhuwan Chandra Khanduri under whose leadership, the GQ plan was launched. Major General B.C.Khanduri later became the Chief Minister of Uttaranchal and always pressed for the broadening of Rishikesh-Joshimath-Badrinath motor road. Thanks to his efforts, BRO is now actively doing the work on the same road.


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 19 May 2011 11:57 
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I can post this article if you guys find it relevant:

The Mandate to Revolutionize Military Logistics: Smith, Bradley E., Air & Space Power Journal, Summer 2007, Vol. 21 Issue 2, p 90-99.

Quote:
Abstract: The article focuses on the significance of a military-wide distribution process owner (DPO) in conducting logistical operations in peace and war. DPO presents a new paradigm for the logistics community. It ties strategic and operational logistics for its effective distribution. It indicates that logisticians must focused on tactical warfare. It is suggested that command's unity must be established so that DPO can bring strategic, operational and tactical logistics back into alignment.


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 19 May 2011 12:19 
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Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
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Location: Lone Star State
rohitvats wrote:
Gentlemen, that report of X hours of mobilization was for an Brigade level force. One cannot mobilize and move an entire Corps to battle area in 48hours - for a simple reason that Corps, and that too something like 2 Strike Corps, is a huge-huge entity. What we may be targeting it to position some strike elements from these formation in double-quick time on border/their jump-off points.


Rohit, "Suman Sharma"'s narrative not-withstanding, it is not clear what formations participated. As usual she launched into a long winding narrative on the formation and hours.

She talks about Dehradun based 14 Div (she left out the RAPIDs part) and the ISt Armoured Division, thats it? after stating this, she launched into some hours-Minutes maths.

What about the rest of the II Corps.what about (Corps level) Artillery or Engineering or mechanized formations. It would be great if you can draw an ORBAT for "Ex Vijayee Bhava"?.


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 19 May 2011 13:33 
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Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
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cheenum wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
Gentlemen, that report of X hours of mobilization was for an Brigade level force. One cannot mobilize and move an entire Corps to battle area in 48hours - for a simple reason that Corps, and that too something like 2 Strike Corps, is a huge-huge entity. What we may be targeting it to position some strike elements from these formation in double-quick time on border/their jump-off points.


Rohit, "Suman Sharma"'s narrative not-withstanding, it is not clear what formations participated. As usual she launched into a long winding narrative on the formation and hours.

She talks about Dehradun based 14 Div (she left out the RAPIDs part) and the ISt Armoured Division, thats it? after stating this, she launched into some hours-Minutes maths.

What about the rest of the II Corps.what about (Corps level) Artillery or Engineering or mechanized formations. It would be great if you can draw an ORBAT for "Ex Vijayee Bhava"?.


There is no way to build Orbat of any exercise. We just have tid-bit of informations floating around.

Check this report:http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_army-mobilisation-time-48-hours_1543679

It seems that exercise was aimed at validating the mobilization timeframe of a Brigade level formation - 60 Brigade in this case. My guessestimate is that what was practised was mobilization of a Brigade level battle group - 60 Bde would have served as Brigade HQ and would have been reinforced with units from other formations in the II Corps.


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2011 00:52 
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Good to see Moscow wake up after the international tender issued by India.

Indo-Russia JV to service Talwar frigates

The title is misleading, the JV should cover more than the Talwar class.

However, this is a JV that has yet to come into existence. The model of the JV is exactly what the International tender wanted a company responding to the tender

Quote:
The IAF has also clarified that the bidders need to have the support of the Ilyushin Design Bureau which is the Russian OEM in this case.


Now only if another "JV" can satisfy the IAF and IA requirements (see below).

Next, it is really sad that the OEMs could not perform their job. There is no need for a JV to exist if the OEMs had done their jobs!!!!!!

Next, this JV is between multiple Russian OEMs and what seems to be an private Indian company (true???). And that this Indian company will hire ex-IN people to support the IN!!!! Nice that they are hiring, but, that is just another person in the middle. IN should have support facilities and people and really no need for this "Krasny Marine Services Pvt Ltd as the sole Indian partner". I view this as an increase in costs of support.

Next, "Krasny Marine Services Pvt Ltd as the sole Indian partner" will be the face that the IN sees and deals with. What if it folds, which it can. It is a for profit outfit and needs to make money to be in service. Hopefully it is financially solvent enough to outlast the Talwars.

Next, the talk of signing the deal when the Navy chief visits Russia needs to be viewed in the right light - this JV has nothing to do with the IN and the Naval Chief's visit to Russia. It is a JV between 8 Russian OEMs and an Indian Pvt company.

Lastly, this does NOT resolve the issues that the IAF has (for which the IAF issued an international tender):

Quote:
The stop-and-start supply of spares, the irregular maintenance and unreasonable price hikes have been a stumbling block for India. Besides the current Ilyushin aircraft maintenance issue, the IAF has been looking for countries other than Russia for special tools and spares and global tenders have been floated for parts and tools related to MiG fighters, AN-32 transport aircraft, Mi-17 helicopters and OSA-AK surface-to-air missile systems.


(The old MiG-29 related problems seemed to have been solved - as stated in some other posts, but these are new problems.)

Then:

Quote:
Even the Indian Army sidelined Russia recently by issuing a Request for Information (RFI) for the acquisition of active protection and counter-measure systems for its T-90S main-battle tanks (MBT) bought from Russia.


Not to talk of my fav: barrels for the T-90!!!!

I think this JV is a joke.

added l8r:

Krasny Marine Services Pvt Ltd is an ex-IN daggha!!!!! Perfect front. I suspect this is the only way that India and Russia could agree to cost escalations.


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2011 16:53 
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Issue: Vol 23.3 Jul-Sep 2008 | Date: 07 February, 2011 :: Revolution in military logistics


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2011 07:51 
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Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
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Military Logistics India 2012
Quote:
In the long term there is a need to integrate the logistic resources of the three Services and utilise the existing national infrastructure more profitably to economise on overall effort. An efficient logistic structure contributes greatly towards meeting the requirements of the field force. This is particularly relevant in the context of the Indian Army which is deployed over a vast geographical spread in varied terrain and climatic conditions. With advancements in C4I2SR capabilities, along with automation providing total asset visibility of the logistic support system, it will be possible to introduce a major transformation to cater to user requirements.
Indian Army Doctrine

Military Logistics India 2012 will address key issues facing the Indian defence logistics community as well as the role of maintenance, repair and overhaul on operational capability in general and equipment availability and important topics covering engineering support in deployed operations.
:
:


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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2011 14:43 
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Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27
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Logistics Planning and Collaboration in Complex Relief Operations

Quote:
Problems

Difficulty Identifying Initial Relief Requirements. ...

Properly Sourcing Relief Supplies ...

Disconnects Between DOD Approval Process and Reality...

Lack of Logistics Planning and Coordination Enablers. ...

Difficulty Coordinating and Deconflicting Airlift. ...

Limitations in Airfield Offload and Throughput Capacity. ...

Properly Sustaining the Flow of Logistics ...

Image

Need for Unclassified Information-sharing and Collaboration Tools ...

Need for More Humanitarian Assistance Exercises ...

Solutions

1. develop pre-crisis integrated logistics planning with the interagency

2. gain visibility of all relief supplies within the affected theater

3. define desired humanitarian assistance/disaster relief processes and outcomes

4. develop an interagency framework for collaboration in advance of HA/DR situations

5. practice and refine humanitarian assistance/disaster relief response frequently through exercises and other pre-crisis events and forums.

...



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 Post subject: Re: Logistics
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2012 04:03 
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Location: Illini Nation
ksiddhartharana wrote:
The importance of logistics in military campaigns

Napoleon's failure: For the want of a winter horseshoe


Very nice read.


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