Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

mikehurst · Post by **mikehurst** » 09 May 2011 17:33

Hello this is my first post here, i have a query with regard to a statistic that is included in a DIPP paper on FDI in private defence industry. Link: http://www.dipp.nic.in/DiscussionPapers ... ay2010.pdf.

Clause 1.2 in this paper is re-produced here for your perusal:
".....................The defence equipment available today is of old vintage and needs replacement. Only 15% of the equipment can be described as ‘state-of-the-art’ and nearly 50% is suffering from obsolescence........................."

I would like to know what would be the optimum mix of technology in an armed force; i.e. what percentage should be state of the art, what should be adequate so on and so forth. Further are there any comparable figures available for any other armed forces.

Also has the aspect of FDI in private defence industry been discussed here, along with the benefits of offsets. I have an primer to the defence procurement procedure 2008 vintage, which i would like to put up on an appropriate forum. If there is a thread dedicated to this or any other area discussing defence offsets, please point out the same.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 09 May 2011 17:41

wig wrote:gurus,
i want to download some threads from the forum and save the discussions therein.
is it possible? if yes i need some assistance on the computer command sequence that will initiate the process.
thanks in advance

Try this https://sites.google.com/site/brfdictionary/utilities

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 10 May 2011 23:01

World's first bombing raid, 100 years ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13294524

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 May 2011 23:24

hello mike, try the defence RnD, DRDO, PSU etc thread.

gokulvarmank · Post by **gokulvarmank** » 12 May 2011 18:55

Hi,

After several years of following Bharat Rakshak site and forum as a visitor I have finally been able to register myself as a member in this forum,

I have one main question : Is there any section where I can share some fictional war game scenarios I have written out? I would much appreciate inputs and critique from more senior members of BR regarding my understanding of tactical and strategic security issues. The fictional write ups are part of a several year old Role play storyline which I have been creating in another forum,

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 12 May 2011 19:56

Gokulji..
Welcome to BR.. you can share the scenarios in the Possible Indian Military Scenarios Thread..

gokulvarmank · Post by **gokulvarmank** » 12 May 2011 20:36

Bala Vignesh wrote:Gokulji..
Welcome to BR.. you can share the scenarios in the Possible Indian Military Scenarios Thread..

Thank you, for the link.

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 13 May 2011 11:18

Here's a must read article for all newbies from the Guardian on the ISI and the nature of its activities: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ma ... intcmp=239

I have highlighted a couple of interesting bits describing the location of ISI headquarters in Islamabad, and the radicalisation/Islamization of the ISI in the early 1990s:

The answer may lie inside the ISI's headquarters in Abpara, on the edge of Islamabad. The entrance, beside a private hospital, is suitably discreet: no sign, just a plainclothes officer packing a pistol who direct visitors through a chicane of barriers, soldiers and sniffer dogs. But inside, past the smooth electric gates, lies a neatly tended cluster of adobe buildings separated by smooth lawns and tinkling fountains that resembles a well-funded private university. Cars purr up to the entrance of the central building, a modern structure with a round, echoing lobby. On the top floor sits the chief spy: the director general Ahmed Shuja Pasha, a grey-haired 59-year-old three-star general. One American counterpart describes him as "brilliant and extremely intelligent . . . Thoughtful, pensive and extremely well read; if he was in the US military he would be a very successful officer."

With the Russian withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989, the CIA largely abandoned Pakistan. But the spirit of "jihad" – fighters imbued with Islamist vim – lived on in the ISI. Pakistani officers, having imbibed too much of their own ideology, transformed the spy agency. It started to support Islamist groups across Asia – Bangladesh, Uzbekistan, Burma, India – and the US placed Pakistan on a terrorist watchlist. In 1993, Javed Ashraf Qazi, a secular-minded general officer, was sent in to clean up the mess. "I was shocked at what I found," he tells me. Senior ISI officers had jettisoned their uniforms for shalwar kameez; their subordinates would disappear off to the mosque for hours on end. The ISI had bought a hotel in Bangkok, probably to facilitate gun-running. The outgoing spy chief, Javed Nasir, was a playboy turned zealot who had grown a scraggly beard and refused to shake women's hands. On his first day in the office Qazi found him running out of the door to a Muslim missionary conference. "When people say the ISI is a rogue agency, it was true in those days," he says.

Qazi fired the ideologues, sold the hotel and ordered his subordinates to wear their uniforms (some struggled to fit in them). "We cleaned it up," says Qazi, who later became a minister under Pervez Musharraf.

Jalal Jemison · Post by **Jalal Jemison** » 14 May 2011 13:22

Gurulog,

My first post here. Please point to the correct link if the issue has been discussed here. In my last week or so of search through MMRCA fora I was not able to find the answer.

Also if it is not the correct forum for this question please redirect.

While pitching for EF, and to a lesser extent Rafale, there is a lot of talk of ToT and 'do-it-yourself'. It is mentioned if EF consortium looses interest in further development of EF then India can take a lead role there. The general atmosphere is a quite gung-ho about a lot of technology coming our way.

My doubt is - are we ready to absorb all this technology and to develop on it? Do we have the requisite manpower and process maturity to successfully gain from this 'ToT clause'?

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 15 May 2011 13:51

^ Tricky question cool head. Im not sure about technicalities of TOT in MMCRA but in general technological maturity IMHO we do have or can fill the gaps soon. LCA Tejas did help build a tech and design base. But our problem is institutional maturity. Unless the whole nation's industrial base and creative potential is harnessed (ie also outside DRDO and PSUs) then no I dont think we can fully absorb the tech and industrialize in the right timeframes. If we can think of national interest and break institutional barriers to collectively achieve national goals then a lot can be done. The ingredients are all here...how do we make them work together, thats the question.

saadhak · Post by **saadhak** » 15 May 2011 15:00

Stealth helicopters refuelled in Pakistan:
Sources further inform that it is not out of the question according to the report that Electro-Magnetics Plus (EMP) technology may also have been employed during the raid to temporarily disable communication systems around the area of the operation. This would mean that mobiles, telephones, internet services including other electrical circuits would have been jammed and unable to function while the raid continued.

To the learneds,
I suppose they are referring to the Electro magnetic pulse about which I have a basic question.
Does an EMP fry all electronic circuits within range? i.e. is the damage to electronics equipment permanant or can EMP be used as a 'temporary jammer'?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 May 2011 17:08

saadhak wrote:
Stealth helicopters refuelled in Pakistan:
Sources further inform that it is not out of the question according to the report that Electro-Magnetics Plus (EMP) technology may also have been employed during the raid to temporarily disable communication systems around the area of the operation. This would mean that mobiles, telephones, internet services including other electrical circuits would have been jammed and unable to function while the raid continued.
To the learneds,
I suppose they are referring to the Electro magnetic pulse about which I have a basic question.
Does an EMP fry all electronic circuits within range? i.e. is the damage to electronics equipment permanant or can EMP be used as a 'temporary jammer'?

Not a "learned" but a "guessed"

If you read about the sort of electronic wizardry being employed by the US you read of radars that spoof a signature return to make it seem like there is nothing. It is virtually certain that the US utilized this against the Packees. No pulse shulse IMO

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 16 May 2011 13:50

somebody enlight me regarding the importance of digital camoflague.... i mean while comparing with traditional camo.. what are the advantages getting by soldier by wearing that

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 17 May 2011 14:09

I have been wondering for some time on why the IAF fighter pilots only wear half g suits and not full ones? All the vids I have seen, the Pilots only don half g suits, even for the MKI as seen on Jai Hind. Wouldn't that hamper the pilots effectiveness at higher g maneuvers?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 17 May 2011 15:07

gurinderji,
What is the difference between a full G suit and a half G suit??
I was not aware of the existence of the former and hence my doubt...

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 17 May 2011 15:32

Bala Vignesh wrote:gurinderji,
What is the difference between a full G suit and a half G suit??
I was not aware of the existence of the former and hence my doubt...

Half g suits are pants only and full ones include the torso.

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 17 May 2011 18:03

You mean to say the differnce between an Indian pilot wearing a russian style G-suit and an western pilot wearing one?

There is no difference. except that western ones use the same coloured/styled remaining clothing. so it seems like a full g-suit.

Liquid filled G-suits (which can allow pilots to go upto 11Gs are however different.)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 May 2011 18:54

Gurinder P wrote:I have been wondering for some time on why the IAF fighter pilots only wear half g suits and not full ones? All the vids I have seen, the Pilots only don half g suits, even for the MKI as seen on Jai Hind. Wouldn't that hamper the pilots effectiveness at higher g maneuvers?

Could you link some videos so we can see too?

saadhak · Post by **saadhak** » 17 May 2011 21:30

shiv wrote:
saadhak wrote: To the learneds,
I suppose they are referring to the Electro magnetic pulse about which I have a basic question.
Does an EMP fry all electronic circuits within range? i.e. is the damage to electronics equipment permanant or can EMP be used as a 'temporary jammer'?
Not a "learned" but a "guessed"

If you read about the sort of electronic wizardry being employed by the US you read of radars that spoof a signature return to make it seem like there is nothing. It is virtually certain that the US utilized this against the Packees. No pulse shulse IMO

Thank you Shiv sir.
I got curious about the capabilities of EMP after the Packee article mentioned it. EMP can be used for temporarily 'stunning' electronics as well.
Some basic information is here: http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb4.htm

Low-level electromagnetic pulses would temporarily jam electronics systems, more intense pulses would corrupt important computer data and very powerful bursts would completely fry electric and electronic equipment.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 18 May 2011 07:31

shiv wrote:
Gurinder P wrote:I have been wondering for some time on why the IAF fighter pilots only wear half g suits and not full ones? All the vids I have seen, the Pilots only don half g suits, even for the MKI as seen on Jai Hind. Wouldn't that hamper the pilots effectiveness at higher g maneuvers?
Could you link some videos so we can see too?

http://goodtimes.ndtv.com/video/videoli ... vid=135796

go to 14:39 [The Flying Cloth Room

]

The Pilots don't don anything over their Torso. The following is an American or Canadian pilot donning a Western Anti Gravity Suit.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 18 May 2011 08:07

^^^^ The G suite part is only the pants. Rest is other stuff like parachute harness, O2 regulator etc...

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 18 May 2011 16:10

Can anyone point me towards a link or a book detailing both of the Black Thunder Ops? I am looking for an account similar to this one on Op Blue Star
Thanks.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 18 May 2011 17:25

^ check KPS Gill's book on it. Pretty comprehensive per folks who've read it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 May 2011 07:15

Gurneesh wrote:^^^^ The G suite part is only the pants. Rest is other stuff like parachute harness, O2 regulator etc...

Yes - that is evident from the videos. The legs (and arms) are the only two parts of the body that can be compressed pretty hard from the outside to restrict the movement of blood without harming the man. I am not sure if older G suits had abdominal and arm compression - but these appear to be absent both in the US version and in the Sukhoi version.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 May 2011 20:01

rajrang wrote: the spirit of my question is where do we draw the line for shivering that is prudent?

I will bite..

First you need to be aware of the origin of the expression "shivering in one's dhoti". In case anyone does not know I would like to point out that the act of "shivering in his dhoti" was attributed to the standard "cowardly Hindu" by the standard martial Pakistan, one of whom would equal six Indians (or ten). The sound of gunfire, or even a sharp blow at the right time would make the ill fed, thin, dhoti clad Hindu shiver in his dhoti and run from superior forces. That is a real sentiment of a real or imagined observation from a set of Pakistanis dating back at least to the 1965 war and used to find repetition on Pakistani fora until a few years ago. It is exactly the feeling and reaction that an Indian (Hindu, clad in a dhoti as expected) is reputed (by delusional Pakis) to suffer from when required to show courage or when required to fight. Equivalent expressions are "pant browning" and "shalwar soiling". or the well known peeing in one's pants, or shitting brix.

I believe that there cannot be a collective "we" in the use of the expression. The expression "dhoti shiver" is used to express various things but its most common usage is in describing a subjective sense of scare mongering beyond the amount of caution and natural fear required for a given event or development among a generally well informed group on this forum. Clearly the "required" bit is purely subjective.

One might ask "If the use of the expression is purely subjective why use it at all?" I cannot answer for others but I have a very definite reason for using the expression. I use the expression "dhoti shivering" to call a halt to what I perceive as a loud voicing of of anxieties and fears based on sheep like following of dubious media reports and scenarios that have not been thought out fully, or in situations where any hint of Indian strength or competence is dismissed while any hint of an adversary's weakness is equally dismissed using a standard list of platitudes. Those platitudes are known to most people on this forum and their repetition as if many people on here don't know or have forgotten is an insult to many on here. If I detect a patronizing tone, however unintended it might be - I point it out and "dhoti shivering" may be one of the expressions I use.

The standard list of platitudes that are used for deliberate and intense dhoti shivering time and time again include (but are not restricted to)

1) Do not understimate an adversary
2) Better safe than sorry or variations thereof

Pointing out these obvious and well known truisms on this forum accompanied by scenarios of how we will be defeated because people are imagined to be running around unaware of these truisms needs the imposition of a reality check. The words "dhoti shiver" come in useful here.

These are my personal views.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 20 May 2011 10:47

shiv wrote:
rajrang wrote: the spirit of my question is where do we draw the line for shivering that is prudent?
I will bite..

First you need to be aware of the origin of the expression "shivering in one's dhoti". In case anyone does not know I would like to point out that the act of "shivering in his dhoti" was attributed to the standard "cowardly Hindu" by the standard martial Pakistan, one of whom would equal six Indians (or ten). The sound of gunfire, or even a sharp blow at the right time would make the ill fed, thin, dhoti clad Hindu shiver in his dhoti and run from superior forces. That is a real sentiment of a real or imagined observation from a set of Pakistanis dating back at least to the 1965 war and used to find repetition on Pakistani fora until a few years ago. It is exactly the feeling and reaction that an Indian (Hindu, clad in a dhoti as expected) is reputed (by delusional Pakis) to suffer from when required to show courage or when required to fight. Equivalent expressions are "pant browning" and "shalwar soiling". or the well known peeing in one's pants, or shitting brix.

I believe that there cannot be a collective "we" in the use of the expression. The expression "dhoti shiver" is used to express various things but its most common usage is in describing a subjective sense of scare mongering beyond the amount of caution and natural fear required for a given event or development among a generally well informed group on this forum. Clearly the "required" bit is purely subjective.

One might ask "If the use of the expression is purely subjective why use it at all?" I cannot answer for others but I have a very definite reason for using the expression. I use the expression "dhoti shivering" to call a halt to what I perceive as a loud voicing of of anxieties and fears based on sheep like following of dubious media reports and scenarios that have not been thought out fully, or in situations where any hint of Indian strength or competence is dismissed while any hint of an adversary's weakness is equally dismissed using a standard list of platitudes. Those platitudes are known to most people on this forum and their repetition as if many people on here don't know or have forgotten is an insult to many on here. If I detect a patronizing tone, however unintended it might be - I point it out and "dhoti shivering" may be one of the expressions I use.

The standard list of platitudes that are used for deliberate and intense dhoti shivering time and time again include (but are not restricted to)

1) Do not understimate an adversary
2) Better safe than sorry or variations thereof

Pointing out these obvious and well known truisms on this forum accompanied by scenarios of how we will be defeated because people are imagined to be running around unaware of these truisms needs the imposition of a reality check. The words "dhoti shiver" come in useful here.

These are my personal views.

Thank you for your detailed explanation. I hope we are not dignifying the hallucinations of delusional Pakis by coining a phrase in this manner. Some day it might even become a part of the English language. At that time isn't there a danger that some people will think that maybe there is some iota of truth behind this expression. Will this not be an unintended and unwanted consequence?

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 20 May 2011 17:43

I was looking for Maz's album on Shivalik (the one which was shot when she was on sea trials). Anyone provide me with a link?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 May 2011 10:01

rajrang wrote: Some day it might even become a part of the English language. At that time isn't there a danger that some people will think that maybe there is some iota of truth behind this expression. Will this not be an unintended and unwanted consequence?

My personal opinion is that it will never get that far although my idea of using it is precisely to make it go so far that people start using it. The minute that happens - it will evoke cries of "racism" from Indians. I would love to see that happen. Anyone who uses that expression after that is racist.

In fact my tactic is hardly original. Pakistani used Islam to create fear and it was Pakis who then invented the term "islamophobia" and made it a bad word so that anyone who fears the action of Islam is some kind of bigot.

S_Prasad · Post by **S_Prasad** » 22 May 2011 19:24

https://picasaweb.google.com/1133537813 ... 7001253202

Looks like they envisioned a gun on the wing in the initial design, which is absent in the prototypes of LCA.
Can some one point an image of LCA which clearly identifies the gun in the LCA prototypes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 May 2011 19:39

S_Prasad wrote:https://picasaweb.google.com/1133537813 ... 7001253202

Looks like they envisioned a gun on the wing in the initial design, which is absent in the prototypes of LCA.
Can some one point an image of LCA which clearly identifies the gun in the LCA prototypes.

The gun was never ever envisaged to be on the wing - it was always right side below the starboard intake.

What you see on the wing is the opening where the boundary layer air on the fuselage side of the intake is vented above the wing. Many photos exist of that - will post if I find one.
Here - this image shows it clearly
http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uplo ... ejas-1.jpg

S_Prasad · Post by **S_Prasad** » 22 May 2011 21:49

thanks shiv. waiting for N LCA 1st flight.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 May 2011 22:06

are you sure you are not confusing the rocket pod on the model as the gun ?
this might help you. http://www.lca-tejas.org/weapons.html the gun is at the black dot under the starboard intake.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 22 May 2011 22:30

Astra has a beautiful plume. My doubt is, in daylight it might not be very visible or stand out clearly but at night, it might make it very visible? I know its a tough proposition to make something "low-visibility" in both day and night. Do they do any kind of studies on this? Or is there any research/stories(:P) about night visibility of missiles. Would love to know. TIA!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 May 2011 21:05

shiv wrote:
Marten wrote:Vayu has a comparison of Lizardclone vs LCH. I have two images. Mods, would it be ok to post these?
It's here - kelik on thumbnail

Couple of questions:

1. How come the larger in size (in all dimensions) LCH is lighter than smaller Chinese stuff? Is it due to composites?

2. How come the lesser powerful Chinese engines could have a higher lift off weight?

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 24 May 2011 01:46

Took this yesterday, looks like a Chinook. Pilot having a blast with all khidkee's open.

Why does USAF not mark it with flag, etc?

All i see is some lettering like "l 11 1" on a upwardly open panel located on the side between the two glass domes.

P.S. I have cropped, re-sized, removed exif, renamed for better viewing on forum.
P.S. 2 For some reason the images are not loading, so the url's for the image are:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/135/copter1.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/copter2.jpg/

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 25 May 2011 12:01

Army is conducting the recruitment rallies right.. this is mainly for filling which ranks..?.. i mean they will taken as sepoy or something else.... and when comparing to other countries recruitment for the same rank.. what is their procedure like if we compare with US,russia and chineese...

koti · Post by **koti** » 25 May 2011 12:10

Our combatants generally have 4 or 16 cruise missile capability.
Do these vessels carry extra missiles within them to be reloaded?
Is it possible to reload these launchers with Missiles while in the sea itself instead of them being reloaded at dock?

Is there any type of Vessel in IN that has this capability?

PS: I was referring to Klub and Brahmos type Missiles

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 25 May 2011 12:34

Marten wrote:a) What or Who are Huffy and Tuffy?
b) Why is the term missing from the BRF Dictionary?

Huffy & Tuffy are light & medium bullet proof vehicles 'developed' by EME themselves. Mostly they are tricked out Gypsys supposed to look like Hummers. They were to be used in anti-insurgency ops for troop transport.

Google for their pix and you will know why Surya gets frothing at the mouth on their mention

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 May 2011 12:56

These are the only two pics that I could find. Whats so wrong about them?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 May 2011 13:04

nothing wrong with how they look.