Indian Space Program Discussion

abhishek-nayak · Post by **abhishek-nayak** » 16 May 2011 13:13

sum wrote:
abhishek-nayak wrote:
What a shame!! Even private companies like SPACEX which has no more than 1000 employees is more capable than ISRO.
Really?

YES!

1) SPACE X has already made a capsule and launched in the space where as ISRO has yet to get approval for manned mission

2) SPACEX's mid heavy launcher falcon 9 is already in a operational mode where as ISRO'S gslv mk3 has still not been tested.

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 16 May 2011 14:16

abhishek-nayak wrote:

What a shame!! Even private companies like SPACEX which has no more than 1000 employees is more capable than ISRO.

Let them (SPACEX/whatever) have all those excellent capabilities, I really don't care. India will do what she needs to do in her own time. ISRO will launch manned missions when they are good and ready. Thankfully, good sense has prevailed over hype.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 16 May 2011 15:21

abhishek, IMHO you should read a lot about the history of the Indian and American space programs.

Number of private companies doing space related engineering & manufature in the US, and their maturity level are the key differentiators. Since US did the basic research and developed materials and subsystems in the 60s, their private industry is able to cater to a company like SpaceX today.

SpaceX can see further only because they are standing on the shoulders of a giant (the American Military Industrial Complex). Let them work with our private companies, with our budgets and accomplish half of what we have achieved. Will be mighty surprised. It is wrong, on a variety of different levels, to compare SpaceX and ISRO.

abhishek-nayak · Post by **abhishek-nayak** » 16 May 2011 17:56

@kailash.

I know that SPACE X takes a lot of assistance from NASA and US MILITARY but who has stopped India from collaborating with foreign agencies????.If i am not mistaken recently Boeing offered assistance to India in making a spacecraft but India rejected it.You must understand there is no time left.The world does not wait for latecomers.Today had ISRO developed a proper heavy launcher then we would have been the leader in satellite launching market(because of our low cost).

And i don't mind blindly copying technology like the Chinese do, in the long run it is not bad.Every one did it.The Americans stole technology from the Germans, the Russians stole the technology from the Americans,the Chinese stole the technology from the Russians.

manum · Post by **manum** » 16 May 2011 18:51

abhishek-nayak wrote:@kailash.

I know that SPACE X takes a lot of assistance from NASA and US MILITARY but who has stopped India from collaborating with foreign agencies????.If i am not mistaken recently Boeing offered assistance to India in making a spacecraft but India rejected it.You must understand there is no time left.The world does not wait for latecomers.Today had ISRO developed a proper heavy launcher then we would have been the leader in satellite launching market(because of our low cost).

And i don't mind blindly copying technology like the Chinese do, in the long run it is not bad.Every one did it.The Americans stole technology from the Germans, the Russians stole the technology from the Americans,the Chinese stole the technology from the Russians.

This is the least we need...to crack an egg before it hatches. It'll be just wasting everything done in past and each process will have to repeated, It's a very carefully documented process which takes its own time to mature...yes one can hasten it, but it only happens through the experience of one involved in the same process, no-one else can foresee the step next to next of it...except the guy involved with it.

What China is doing is totally opaque and nor we can have China example for us...as per spacex is there or boeing or LM, these firms are monstrous, and are not sustainable in Indian context, where everything is cheaper but good in quality,. You are not understanding the Indian context.

The model India follows is unique in its own terms, and yes, it requires better management and there is room for improvement, but I'll highly suggest you to read India more carefully...Rest your opinion is very much yours like mine...

Sean Rowe · Post by **Sean Rowe** » 16 May 2011 19:19

India did get technical assistance from number of countries like our Vikas engine in PSLV is a modified engine of Viking of France. Cryogenic engine Russia gave consultancy. Manned mission we have collaboration with Russia our crew module will be modified version of Soyuz.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 16 May 2011 20:39

abhishek-nayak wrote:@kailash.

I know that SPACE X takes a lot of assistance from NASA and US MILITARY but who has stopped India from collaborating with foreign agencies????.If i am not mistaken recently Boeing offered assistance to India in making a spacecraft but India rejected it.You must understand there is no time left.The world does not wait for latecomers.Today had ISRO developed a proper heavy launcher then we would have been the leader in satellite launching market(because of our low cost).

And i don't mind blindly copying technology like the Chinese do, in the long run it is not bad.Every one did it.The Americans stole technology from the Germans, the Russians stole the technology from the Americans,the Chinese stole the technology from the Russians.

I suggest you read the book Gopal Raj's book on Indian Space Program before making accusations. Please take your

to the

thread. The newbie thread would be good start for getting answers to your questions.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 May 2011 20:48

Please no whines here. Thanks, ramana

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 17 May 2011 11:12

Science city in Chitradurga

Several new critical facilities in next 2 - 3 years

(Link2)

abhishek-nayak · Post by **abhishek-nayak** » 18 May 2011 17:21

KrishG wrote:
I suggest you read the book Gopal Raj's book on Indian Space Program before making accusations. Please take your to the thread. The newbie thread would be good start for getting answers to your questions.

With due respect, i have raised some valid points.My family members work in ISRO and hence i am no outsider to this issue.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 19 May 2011 02:48

Theni to house India-based Neutrino Observatory.

Finally, the India-based Neutrino Observatory (INO), a multi-institutional effort to build a world class underground laboratory, at a cost of Rs. 1,260 crore, to study neutrinos in the atmosphere, will find its home near Pottipuram village in West Bodi Hills of Theni district, 110 km west of Madurai.

After years of negotiations with the State government, the Forest department and activists and the rejection of two sites, first at Singara in the Nilgiris and then near Suruli falls in Theni district, the INO's full-fledged underground science laboratory will be created in West Bodi Hills, as the Expert Appraisal Committee (EAC) of the Ministry of Environment and Forests (MoEF) has recommended an environmental clearance for the site.

As the project site was within the forest area, the MoEF appraisal committee, early this year, asked the project proponents to take necessary precautions during the construction phase and obtain necessary permission and ‘no objection' certificate from the Forest department.

It sought details of excavated earth for the construction of a two-km-long tunnel for building and housing a large magnetised iron calorimeter detector to study naturally produced neutrinos in the Earth's atmosphere.

It also sought details of the quantity and method of disposal, one of the prime reasons why the INO could not obtain permission at a site in Singara adjoining the Mudumalai Tiger Reserve.

The scientists were also asked to submit plans for emergency evacuation, disaster management and water and energy conservation by the committee in its January meeting.

Examining the details submitted, the MoEF's expert appraisal committee, in its last meeting, recommended the INO proposal for environmental clearance, said forest officials.

“Forest clearance (stage one) was obtained in October 2010,” says Prof. M.V.N. Murthy of the Institute of Mathematical Sciences. “Once we receive a letter from the MoEF on environmental clearance, we would have obtained all statutory clearances,” he said.

About 4.62 hectares of forest land has been diverted for the purpose of setting up the INO underground laboratory.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 21 May 2011 02:48

GSAT-8 satellite successfully launched Badhaai ho!

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 21 May 2011 04:31

Hiten wrote:GSAT-8 satellite successfully launched Badhaai ho!

good news, but i still do not feel good at the way ISRO and DRDO are working.

abhishek-nayak · Post by **abhishek-nayak** » 21 May 2011 07:12

Hiten wrote:GSAT-8 satellite successfully launched Badhaai ho!

for what?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 May 2011 07:16

kvraghavaiah wrote:
Hiten wrote:GSAT-8 satellite successfully launched Badhaai ho!
good news, but i still do not feel good at the way ISRO and DRDO are working.

Please suggest changes

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 May 2011 07:17

The Ariane vehicle's payload was i think 9T. It launched another satellite apart from ours.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 May 2011 07:20

abhishek-nayak wrote:
Hiten wrote:GSAT-8 satellite successfully launched Badhaai ho!
for what?

Please suggest what would suffice for your happiness. and please don't revolve the weight-age of your post based on what your family members are. Then there can not be any discussion. Many here have family members in defense related government establishments and know that EVERYTHING is not fine. But that is not the basis of any discussion.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 May 2011 11:03

Advanced Communication Satellite GSAT-8 Launched Successfully

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 21 May 2011 11:59

yesterday's launch video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pcc3RWmn3o

attempt to do a live stream capture went awry - received intermittent footage instead. joined them together

@abhishek-nayak
just because an organization has drawbacks, perceived or otherwise, as is to be expected in the functioning of any organization, can not preclude one from enjoying & appreciating their achievements, more so when viewed against the backdrop of the "drawbacks" that happen to be the focus of all our attention. Hence the Badhai ho Badhai!!

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 21 May 2011 12:46

Was able to watch it live on DD National yesterday at 1:30 AM. They were showing the 3D animation of the states at the launch control center once the rocket went out of sight. Very good coverage.

The overall payload for this mission was 8 tonnes. Apart from GSAT-8 (3 tonnes) Ariane 5 was carrying the ST2(5 Tonnes) telecom satellite built by Mitsubishi for Singtel Optus and their Taiwan partner.

abhishek-nayak · Post by **abhishek-nayak** » 21 May 2011 13:33

@ indranilroy & hiten

I would also like to congratulate ISRO and every member of this forum for the successful launch of GSAT8,but only from nationalistic view and not from Scientific and rational perspective.Any way! Good luck to ISRO!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 22 May 2011 06:28

Students cherish memories of NASA mission

It was their lifetime experience - for 53 students of Vetri Vikaas Group of Schools near Rasipuram who visited National Aeronautics and Space Administration's (NASA) Kennedy Space Center

The above news may not be of immediate relevance to this thread, but I hope that the visit motivates at least some of these students become space scientists, engineers, astronauts etc.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 May 2011 06:36

Vipul wrote:Theni to house India-based Neutrino Observatory.

a world class underground laboratory, at a cost of Rs. 1,260 crore, to study neutrinos in the atmosphere, will find its home near Pottipuram village in West Bodi Hills of Theni district

I have some fond memories of this area - which was a lush green hilly tropical paradise when I visited the place with friends (one of whom had family in Bodinayakanur). We experienced more than one variety of grass on a cracker of a college class-bunking holiday decades ago. Sorry OT - the names "Theni" and "Bodi" struck a chord in my memory.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 May 2011 06:52

yup nice place.. but long time as a kid been to that place on the way to sabrimala/ot. i hope nature conservationists and project tiger and other animal protection rights are taken care off for this project.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 22 May 2011 07:37

presentation made about the the India-based Neutrino Observatory project

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhyYlmWihL4

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 22 May 2011 08:17

GSAT 8 .. first elliptical orbit ( Transfer Orbit ) as seen from a point above North pole.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/690/gastorbit.png/
OR here

Nearest dist from Earth Surface : 245 Kms ( approx )
Farthest dist from Earth Surface : 35800Kms ( approx )
Orbit inclination with Equator : 2.5 deg ( approx )

( Not able to upload direct image )

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 23 May 2011 14:21

SSSalvi wrote:GSAT 8 .. first elliptical orbit ( Transfer Orbit ) as seen from a point above North pole.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/690/gastorbit.png/
OR here

Nearest dist from Earth Surface : 245 Kms ( approx )
Farthest dist from Earth Surface : 35800Kms ( approx )
Orbit inclination with Equator : 2.5 deg ( approx )

( Not able to upload direct image )

It's currently over west equatorial Africa at 28855,832 km in altitude heading for perigee over the Pacific ocean in approximately 3 hours at an expected perigee altitude of 238,406 km.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 May 2011 02:22

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Orbit ... r_999.html

In the second orbit raising manoeuvre conducted at 12:22 hrs IST (May 23, 2011), the Liquid Apogee Motor (LAM) on board GSAT-8 was fired for 35.8 minutes by commanding the satellite from ISRO's Master Control Facility (MCF), Hassan.

With this LAM firing, GSAT-8 perigee (closest point to earth) has been raised to 32,385 km. The apogee (farthest point to earth) height remains at 35,768 km. The inclination of the orbit with respect to the equatorial plane has been reduced to 0.06 deg.

GSAT-8 now has an orbital period of 22 hours 29 minutes. The satellite will now be in the continuous radio visibility of MCF, Hassan.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 May 2011 02:25

More recent news from ISRO page

GSAT- 8 Satellite Placed in Geosynchronous Orbit
India's advanced communication satellite, GSAT-8, launched on May 21, 2011 has reached Geosynchronous orbit with an orbital period of 23 hours 45 minutes. The satellite's orbit has a perigee of 35,543 km, apogee of 35,770 km and an orbital inclination of 0.04 deg with respect to the equatorial plane. The solar arrays on both sides of the satellite have been deployed and they are tracking the Sun and generating electrical power. These solar arrays are designed to generate 6,240 W of electrical power. Two large dual grid Ku-band antennae have been opened and are pointing towards the Earth.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 26 May 2011 08:17

Success of GSAT-8 and Future of India’s Space Programme

At this point it is important for India’s strategic and technological decision makers to take note of two recent events: the success of satellite technology in Operation Geronimo to kill Osama bin Laden and the failure of India’s satellite architecture to identify the location of the accident site of the helicopter carrying the Arunachal Chief Minister. Bin Laden’s killing clearly demonstrates the relevance of satellite technology in the era of asymmetric warfare. On the other hand, India missing the signature of the crashed helicopter brings to the fore the limitations of this technology while at the same time raising questions about the quality of India’s sensor technology and satellite imagery interpretation expertise.

Presently, the security situation in India’s neighbourhood has become extremely complicated and Indian security agencies are likely to depend more on satellite technologies for the purposes of reconnaissance, communication and navigation. Each of the three Services needs dedicated satellites to cater for its requirements. ISRO was expected to launch a satellite for the Indian Navy in 2011. What is the future of this launch? Will ISRO’s plans, “to go back to the drawing board”, have any impact on India’s security preparedness? If so, does India have a Plan B in place?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 26 May 2011 11:01

At this point it is important for India’s strategic and technological decision makers to take note of two recent events: the success of satellite technology in Operation Geronimo to kill Osama bin Laden and the failure of India’s satellite architecture to identify the location of the accident site of the helicopter carrying the Arunachal Chief Minister.

Thats comparing apples and oranges. Completely unfair comparison by Lele. US put it's satellites and military SAR aircraft to search for Steve Fossets' remains within heartland USA for long and failed. The remains after months were discovered by a hiker by accident.

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 26 May 2011 14:47

pgbhat wrote: Bin Laden’s killing clearly demonstrates the relevance of satellite technology in the era of asymmetric warfare. On the other hand, India missing the signature of the crashed helicopter brings to the fore the limitations of this technology while at the same time raising questions about the quality of India’s sensor technology and satellite imagery interpretation expertise.

Bin Laden's location ( which anyway is much bigger than the helicopter fragments ) was identified by ground intelligence/research and once it was located then the satellite surveylance was used to keep tab on day to day developments.

Also the resolution of Indian satellites is SURELY less than US intelligence satellites.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 May 2011 19:48

Not to mention vegetation differences and terrain. It is very subjective the definition of 'success' in using remote sensing for a wide variety of applications. Very unfair comparison. Usually satellite data is just one of the inputs from many disparate sources in attacking a given problem. It alone can never tell the whole story, whether it is locating criminals or even measuring environmental parameters.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 May 2011 19:57

Bade wrote:Not to mention vegetation differences and terrain. It is very subjective the definition of 'success' in using remote sensing for a wide variety of applications. Very unfair comparison. Usually satellite data is just one of the inputs from many disparate sources in attacking a given problem. It alone can never tell the whole story, whether it is locating criminals or even measuring environmental parameters.

SAAR the Article is nothing but typical DIE Self Flagalation. Everyone knows the US found find Bin Laden by his couriers, electronic , other techinical and Huumit intelligence resources and not by Satellite photos and SAR pictures , they took satellite Photographs to plan thier mission is anther matter. and IT took American Satellites only 10 years to find the compound whereas Indian Satellite could not find the Helicopter remains in 2 days? That Article makes no sense so best to ignore it as loser venting his spleen.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 26 May 2011 21:57

The article makes no sense whatsoever. There are an many many parameters involved when it comes to satellite imagery and interpreting the results.

mikehurst · Post by **mikehurst** » 27 May 2011 10:29

Henrik sir, I was looking for the parameters involved and what were the challenges faced in searching for a helicopter sized target in a mountainous terrain. I would be obliged if you could point me to sources which talk about these challenges or list them.

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 27 May 2011 13:01

^^^

Sorry for butting in unasked. We will await inputs from Henrik; in the meantime some food for thought.

Although the helicopter is a large object, after impact, generally it will fragment into parts of a meter or so wide in cross section when seen from overhead. In a forest terrain on the slops of the mountain these artifacts are spread under trees so sighting poses a bit difficulty even if you try to look for metal or oil signatures in optical remote sensing data. The best and easiest to locate is emergency beacon because it a transmitting source and will show out by itself but the problem is it can function only as long as its battery supports it.

If the accident is in a open space like desert or open clear ground then identifying the objects is definitely easier.. because of its contrast with surroundings.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 27 May 2011 15:35

mikehurst wrote:Henrik sir, I was looking for the parameters involved and what were the challenges faced in searching for a helicopter sized target in a mountainous terrain. I would be obliged if you could point me to sources which talk about these challenges or list them.

SSSalvi summed it up pretty well.

As I understand it, you were searching for a crashed helicopter in forest-covered mountainous terrain.

* A crashed helicopter doesn't have the radar or optical signature of a helicopter. Pieces can also be spread out over a large area. If you're searching for a metal wreck, how do you distinguish one wreck from another? It requires more "manual" image interpreting thus increasing the time needed.

* Assuming the forest is thick, optical search can be next to useless. What you would be searching for is a) a burnt area assuming the forest is dry, b) knocked down branches and perhaps whole trees. In other words you would be searching for unexpected clearings in the forest.

* When searching with SAR in a thick forest you'd be picking up a lot of clutter, making it harder than if the crash occured in an open desert. Then you'd also have the forest floor which isn't exactly smooth and one spot is not identical to another (compare with a nice flat desert).

* Now add the fact that the terrain is mountainous. As you can see it requires time and skilled interpreters (I'm not saying that Indian interpreters aren't skilled enough).

* AFAIK India has two radar satellites in sun-syncronous orbit and though the orbit enables you to reach almost any spot on earth, you won't pass over the same area more than a few times every day. If you have a large area to search in it could take a while to cover the entire search area. Add to the fact that the area was mountainous you'd have "line of sight" to take into account, which limits the number of "favourable passes" per day.

Conclusion: You can't expect to find the wreck immediately, it takes time. And while India has some space resources it's not in abundance. The type of terrain doesn't help out either. Like SSSalvi said, it would be a lot easier to search in an open desert than in thick foilage in a mountainous region.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 29 May 2011 06:54

Rs 10,000-crore push for India’s supercomp plan

India this week committed Rs 10,000 crore to indigenously develop the world’s fastest supercomputer by 2017. The Planning Commission agreed in principle to provide the funds to the Indian Space Research Organsiation (ISRO) and Indian Institute of Science (IIS), Bangalore to develop a supercomputer with a performance of 132.8 exaflops (132 quintillion floating operations per second). A quintillion has 18 zeros (a million has six)

The world’s fastest supercomputer right now is a Chinese one, which can do 2.7 pentaflops, or two quadrillion flops. A quadrillion has 15 zeros.

India in 2007 had the world’s fourth fastest indigenously-developed supercomputer with a performance of 172.5 teraflops (172 trillion flops), which has been enhanced this month to 220 teraflops. That’s still a level lower than China’s supercomputer.

The Indian supercomputer will not be used only for enhancing the country’s space abilities, it will also be used to predict monsoon and precise weather inputs to boost agriculture N Balakrishnan, associate professor at IIS-Bangalore,

Balakrishnan, in a presentation to the plan panel, said ISRO has already booked key equipment to develop the supercomputer by 2017. “Most of the other gadgets will be indigenously developed,” he said. “Supercomputing is key to competing in the international space market,” Balakrishnan said.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 May 2011 09:04

I like the idea for I have followed the Indian super computer story since the 90s.

I dont like the usage of gadgets in the scientists speech. It reduces impact of the task.