LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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atul.arvind
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by atul.arvind »

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krishnan
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by krishnan »

atul.arvind wrote:BSF dont want DHRUV heli...says its totally useless....



news :TOI Bangalore edition.will post link as soon as i get 1....

Already posted
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

WRT, the longbow radar and the Ah64. Why can the Item be fitted to the LCH it self or be deployed like the MMwR FCS on the Ah1Z. Also why not ask the proposed LOH to be equipped with a similar radar to locate targets and guide the LCH to the target.

Also it is not necessary that you have Helo based radar onlee. Why not use some thing like the JSTAR/ ASTOR to guide the LCH where the targets are.

My point is we need to end this fascination with foreign maal. We must be the only nation where the Proposed imported solution and the domestically developed solution will have similar time line of entry into service. Yet we are wishing for an Imported solution to be acquired and add to logistical complexity.

Also considering the development efforts for the WSI Dhruv and the lineage of the LCH. We can be sure that the LCH will have a minimal time lag in terms of completing the test flight and reaching deployment.

Granted that the HELINA will take some time to enter into service (As per DDM 2013). But what prevents the LCH to be equipped as an interim measure with an imported ATGM. As it is we are ok with the Imported ATGM serving with the Imported Attack Helo.

Added later: I had not seen Singhas post
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by VinodTK »

Russian Helicopters to be assembled in India
The MiG setback has been a humbling experience for Russian defence contractors. Now, the Russian Helicopter company is sweetening the deal by offering local production in the race for three Indian tenders worth $4 bn.
:
In a move unprecedented in the country’s history, the Russian Helicopters, JSC announced it was ready to establish manufacturing of military equipment in India with the right to re-export to third countries. The helicopter builders are thus trying to gain the upper hand in three tenders for supplying the Indian Air Force with light highlander choppers, cargo carriers, and assault helicopters worth more than $4 billion in total.

“We may do the final assembly in India and enter other markets from the Indian market base,” Andrei Reus, CEO of United Industrial Corporation Oboronprom, said. The Russian Helicopters, JSC, an Oboronprom subsidiary, is responsible for the design and manufacturing of all helicopters in Russia.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

DGCA certifies Dhruv simulator to Level D
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/05/d ... level.html

added later: for all who do not known what a level 'd' flight simulator is, please click on link below and go to motion in flight simulators sub-heading;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_sim ... simulators
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by KrishG »

Price row prompts HAL to look elsewhere for chopper engine
BANGALORE: A dispute over fees may hamper French firm Turbomeca's chances of participating in the development of Shakti engines for Light Utility Helicopter programme.

Turbomeca has asked for a higher fee to fit the LUH, with Shakti engine, jointly developed with Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), prompting the state-owned defence undertaking to look elsewhere. "We have been in dialogue with other engine manufacturers," P Soundara Rajan, managing director of HAL's helicopter complex, told The Economic Times in an interview.

The LUH, which will have both civil and military variants, will replace the obsolete Chetak and Cheetah helicopter fleets of the forces. The Shakti engine currently powers the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter-Mark-III as well as HAL's Light Combat Helicopter.

However, the Shakti has a twin-engine configuration, and HAL has been re-evaluating its options in converting it to a singleengine platform on which the LUH is based. "We will have to take a call shortly on whether the twin-engine platform will be a good fit. This should be done by the end of the year. There are design and qualification changes that have to be worked out," Soundara Rajan said.

The country's largest aeronautics company will also have to consider certification issues, such as the changes in the gearbox design, in order to incorporate the Shakti engine into the single-engine LUH, he said. "There are a number of costs involved, plus efforts in design, engineering, qualification and certification. One has to look at economic viability. These are techno-commercial decisions that have to be taken," the helicopter complex managing director said.

It is yet unclear whether the French manufacturer has drawn up a fresh proposal for the programme. In response to an email questionnaire sent by ET, Turbomeca said the Shakti engine would be "well-suited to meet the propulsion requirements of the LUH programme".

"Therefore, the possibility of its installation on this aircraft is under discussions between HAL and Turbomeca," an email from the company said. Soundara Rajan has also confirmed that HAL-Turbomeca joint venture was not under evaluation. However, companies such as Honeywell and Rolls-Royce are believed to be in talks with the state-owned defence undertaking. General Electric and Honeywell did not respond to emails sent by ET.

In an email statement, Prat & Whitney spokesperson said: "Prat & Whitney is not in discussion with HAL for engines on the LUH". In a statement, Rolls-Royce declined to comment on specifics.

"Rolls-Royce has class-leading helicopter engines that are wellmatched to LUH requirements. An opportunity to power the platform, in collaboration with Indian partners, is of high potential interest and such collaboration would draw upon our over 200 million flight hours of helicopter engine experience and decades of working in partnership with Indian industry, to serve the needs of the Indian military . However Rolls-Royce does not comment on specific on-going campaigns," it added.

Discord between partners in the defence industry is nothing new. In 2002, HAL entered into a joint venture with a Russian consortium that included aerospace giants Irkut Aviation, Ilyushin Aviation Complex and Rosoboronexport, to develop a multi-role transport aircraft for India and Russia, only for Irkut to pull out six years later. The project got back on track only in late-2009.

The Cassidian-Larsen & Toubro JV also ran into trouble after government regulator, the Foreign Investment Promotion Board , rejected their earlier proposed equity structure. The three-tonne LUH has been designated as one of HAL's future flagship products.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by SaiK »

we will be ever rolling the stones, and gather no mass (technical knowledge).
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Shrinivasan »

This whole article could be a Chankiyan attempt by Yindoos to army twist the VIP Frenchies (in town) to get a better deal. There are many deals which could be in the Frenchies pocket (or ...). If we are seriously looking at other options after so many years, we are shooting ourselves in the foot because the same story would be repeated with the new partner after 2-3 year.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by mikehurst »

The news and discussion on Turbomeca-HAL dispute on provision of Shakti engines for LUH; set me off on thinking on what would be the commonality of engines for Helicopters for the Largest users and producers of Helis viz., USA and Russia. Accordingly have collected the information on an excel sheet. Tried to put it up for discussion, but did not find a way. Could somebody please provide information on putting up an excel sheet on this forum.

Thanks,
Mike.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Mike,
You could upload it to any filehosting website like rapidshare or ifile and post the link here...
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by mikehurst »

Thanks Bala, the rough comparison has been put up at the following link.

The news and discussion on Turbomeca-HAL dispute on provision of Shakti engines for LUH; set me off on thinking on what would be the commonality of engines for Helicopters for the Largest users and producers of Helis viz., USA and Russia. Accordingly have collected the information on an excel sheet.

http://thenativeopinion.blogspot.com/20 ... spute.html
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by putnanja »

Hindustan Aeronautics Light Combat Helicopter to come out with its third prototype
BANGALORE: Hindustan Aeronautics' Light Combat Helicopter programme will soon come out with its third prototype after incorporating a host of design and production improvements. This is less than a year after the much-anticipated chopper had to abort its flying display at the country's premier air show, Aero India 2011.

...
...
The latest prototype will be lighter, have higher load limits and better camouflage. The Bangalore-based aeronautics company is currently working on the breakaway fuselage of the chopper, and expects to conduct the ground test for the same soon.

"The entire load spectrum is simulated on the ground, and the aircraft is then taken apart to see whether the intended design parameters are behaving exactly the way they should. We have completed the manufacturing of the breakaway fuselage, and it is getting instrumented now," Soundara Rajan said.

...
...
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

So they have designed themselves into a corner again?

I guess this will continue till they develop their own engines.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by SaiK »

Default engine thrust de-rate of 30% is a must I think for all DRDO aviation projects. We have IAF complain on LCA thrust, etc.. history of data is golden. Or build all product first cut as prototype, with heavier metals and loads, and then go on the next phase of weight reduction with advanced materials. They get in to multi-phase mode, which is good in an agile tranche sense. But, as long as it falls within schedules, no complain is high priority.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by NRao »

EngineS!!!

India better start - right now - investing in R&D. Else this tamasha will continue.

All players have mature R&D and will not provide latest and greatest. What is provided will always be (gen - 1ish).

Local R&D cannot be beat.

And, do it very, very quietly. No need to announce anything. Serves no purpose.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

I feel its better to conclude a new deal with turbomeca than bring in a new vendor at this stage. the extra money turbomeca will wring out of us here will get balanced by the new product integration cost, training, time if we go elsewhere. plus with argiden we know what we are getting, the seductive charms of a another engine we have not dealt with earlier may be good - for the honeymoon period only.
in parallel start a project for "cold section" of turboshaft atleast - like the chinis are doing...mating their cold section to ardigen. start work on helicopter gearboxes , on main rotor quietening......leave the hot section for a best effort thing - kaveri-snecma needs to mature for that.

once we break out of the hot section cage, make sure everyone gets invited to a party where they are read the new laws of the land.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

Will this be the size zero (Reduced weight) LCH as promised by the HAL. Or will it just be a repeat of the previous LCH weight.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:Will this be the size zero (Reduced weight) LCH as promised by the HAL. Or will it just be a repeat of the previous LCH weight.
The article you linked does state that the third prototype will be lighter.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Surya »

I agree with Singha - for now we may be better off and live with the extra cost then start over and delay. As long as the contract is iron clad with deliveries and further raises

unlike the AG, these are more needed to encounter the lizard and its wh0re

Long term if we feel that they screwed us - make them pay when the time comes
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Noob pooch.. Though this question might have been discussed ad nauseum..
The article above indicates that the current order for Dhruv is around 159+76 WSI version..
Is it confirmed or is it just DDM???
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Gagan »

Was this posted earlier?
Prasad Sampath, GM HAL Rotary Wing R&D Center talks about the LUH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIatPdCb4ps
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

bala, confirmed. comes from HAL's own presentation.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

In the mid 90s when the development of the Dhruv had nearly been completed. It was said that HAL would create Industrial capacity to make 3 Helos / Month. Looking at the production numbers for Dhruv being quoted. Suggests that a much smaller production run has been implimented.

JMT
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Thanks Rahulda...
wow.. That's a huge order of ~235 Dhruv overall..
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Shrinivasan »

HAL currently makes around 30 Druv Helos per year. Gurus please correct me if I am wrong. They are also making Chetak, Cheetahs etc still. I think the helo division has its hands full in manufacturing. On the design side, LUH, LCH and improvements to ALH DRUV (they have quickly come to MarkIII) is keeping their plate full. This is the first time IA and IAF have given a large order even before the product is completely ready (for LCH)... good going... is the ALH WSI ready? has the Army tested it?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

WSI is included in the 159 order. it is in addition to the numbers already developed, which is 76. so 56 (Mk1) + 20 Mk2 (glass cockpit) + 159 (Mk3 and Mk4) = 235 for Indian military alone. + 5 prototypes + foreign and civilian sales.
mk3 is glass cockpit with shakti and mk4 is the WSI.
HAL currently makes around 30 Druv Helos per year.
it's around 24 I think but I could be wrong.
They are also making Chetak, Cheetahs etc still.
nope, only overhauling and possibly re-engining. it is done at barrackpore, near kolkata.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Shrinivasan »

Rahul M wrote:WSI is included in the 159 order. it is in addition to the numbers already developed, which is 76.
has HAL already made 76 Druv WSI or plain Druvs (MKI+II+III)?
Rahul M wrote:nope, only overhauling and possibly re-engining. it is done at barrackpore, near kolkata.
I meant HAL as whole, not just HAL Bangalore.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

the presentation was from 2008 and HAL had supplied 76 ALH (Mk1 and Mk2) to the forces by that time. current numbers would be higher. I would expect that future deliveries would be mostly Mk4.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by nrshah »

Rahulda,

Can MK1 and MK2 updated to Mk2/3 status?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by VinodTK »

HAL-CAE Helicopter simulator to add more military/civil cockpits
“We are very proud of achieving Level D certification for the world’s first simulator representing the indigenously developed HAL Dhruv helicopter,” said Wg Cdr (Retd) Chandra Datt Upadhyay Vr.C., Chief Executive Officer of HATSOF. “We look forward to welcoming the Indian Air Force and other civil operators of the Dhruv in offering simulation-based training that will undoubtedly prove to be a safe and cost-effective method for training Dhruv helicopter aircrews.” The cockpit for the civil/conventional variant of the Dhruv is the second for the HATSOFF training centre.

The first cockpit for the simulator represented the Bell 412 helicopter and training for Bell 412 operators began in July 2010.

Additional cockpits for the Indian Army/Air Force variant of the HAL-built Dhruv and the Eurocopter Dauphin will be added to the HATSOFF training centre over the next year.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Hitesh »

What does WSI stand for? What does it mean? What features does it have?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

WSI - weapon system integrated. take the basic dhruv, add rocket/missile/gun pods under some 'wings' made of rod frame, a EO ball in front and chin cannon. a bunch are on order from the IA to act in escort and light attack role. the cockpit & EO system is mainly indo-israeli, the weapons so far seem to be french like giat cannon, mistral AAM, that triangular x-section rocket pod, not sure which ATGM is chosen or if chosen yet.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 781286.JPG
http://img.blog.yahoo.co.kr/ybi/1/24/56 ... 446579.jpg
http://img.blog.yahoo.co.kr/ybi/1/24/56 ... 446579.jpg

its been undergoing weapons trials in nagpur or somewhere for a while now.

each division of the IA ought to have say 15 of these for defence and infantry support against enemy mobile columns and targeting enemy strongpoints...perhaps up it to 30 each for the mountain divs.

the armour divs and general IA aviation wing will probably hold the LCH, some LOH and the new heavy gunships we have tendered for ... more offensive and deep attack posture
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Shrinivasan »

Singha wrote:WSI - weapon system integrated. take the basic dhruv, add rocket/missile/gun pods under some 'wings' made of rod frame...
each division of the IA ought to have say 15 of these for defence and infantry support against enemy mobile columns and targeting enemy strongpoints...perhaps up it to 30 each for the mountain divs.
IA for one seems to have embraced this (for now), they have ordered a decent # for now, hopefully they would evolve their tactics for Druv WSI and go in for massive induction. We need a flight of Druv WSI (along with LUH) in each division with multiple flights for IBGs / Strike formations.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by VinodTK »

India to withdraw Mi-35 copters from UN
India is preparing to withdraw its four remaining Mi-35 attack helicopters from the Democratic Republic of Congo early next month after the expiry of its contract with the UN mission, a top Indian official here has said.

India had deployed 17 MI-17, eight MI-35 and MI-25 helicopters on UN Peace Missions in DRC and Sudan.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Shrinivasan »

VinodTK wrote:India is preparing to withdraw its four remaining Mi-35 attack helicopters from the Democratic Republic of Congo early next month after the expiry of its contract with the UN mission, a top Indian official here has said.
It looks like Desh may withdraw all its helos from UN missions.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

hope all the Mi17s are carted back. the two new mountain divs in NE could use them for one thing.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by D Roy »

It looks like Desh may withdraw all its helos from UN missions.
theek kiyaa hai <del>

We'll spill our blood and the west will play games to turn the Africans against us. we'll invest serious resources, without any real compensation and some Gora will write condescending articles about " how we are blowing our chances for the permanent sofa"

nahi chahiye <del>
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Gurneesh »

^^^^ Thode phool kam barsayen :mrgreen:
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singh »

D Roy wrote:
It looks like Desh may withdraw all its helos from UN missions.
theek kiyaa hai <del>

nahi chahiye <del>
Godness gracious.... Shant ghadha-dhari bheem Shant!!!!
nahi toh admins aa jayenge :)
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