Indian Naval Discussion

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Jun 2011 03:16

The very fact that some elements in Russia will even conceive of military trading with the pakis should give an idea of what they are about after all the suffering because of the Pakis.

Nice to see philip's grandiose optimism back - he is more putin than putin

restructuring the reason why we have all these problems

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jun 2011 07:27

maybe russia can sell the Mig-35 to the pakis. would piss the chinis off if Mig35 were chosen over the J10
engine would be common with Bandar and the bandar can also get a zhuk-ae radar losing the KLJ.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Jun 2011 07:54

Russia and "sell" MiG-35s to Pakistan? And with what wonderful currency is the GOP going to purchase these? It ain't the USSR that would give away hardware for a pittance or even just an alliance. Ridiculous - there may be stoopid factions in Roos, but the decision makers are not altogether off their rocker.

Not only jeopardize returns from a poor sale, but also put a steady relationship with an emerging power at risk. Yes, the russkis are whining - only to be expected - makes their candidacy in other areas stronger. Perhaps the sub deal (which is almost as big as the MRCA) will go the Roosi way.

CM.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jun 2011 07:59

what I meant was indian officials if threatenend should ask them to go right ahead in the manner suggested. or ask them to develop consumer goods which they can actually sell to the world like say a TV or keyboard lol

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Jun 2011 08:06

I know what you were getting at Singha garu, I was just dissing the idea in that article.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jun 2011 03:54

Chinese carriers? Surely the Varyag refit,carrier due to enter service within a year,plus full scale working and land mock-up of the Varyag's flight deck,ski-jump,superstructure,etc.,for carrier aircraft training,along with reports of a 5 carrier future plan are enough evience to show where China is heding.The secret SU-33 acquisition from Ukraine and subsequent reverseengineering of it,after Russia refused to sell the PLAN a carrier fighter is also a known fact.Russia's restructuring of its military industry and huge home orders to kickstart the changes is also a fact.These will be in evidence within the next two-three years.The Warship-Tech issue also highlights Russia's recent naval developments,with new warship designs afoot.Eqpt. for our legacy weaponry is a problem no doubt,and the IN with its careful life-extension upgrades of Rajputs/Kashins,Kilos,etc.,has faced them.

The FGFA presentation to the IAF team shows the seriousness with which military ties/deals are being taken.Look at B'Mos.The next phase is round the corner,air-launched version,plus the hyper version in the future.The MIG-29Ks are arriving in regular batches and hopefully the long overdue Gorky/Vik will also do so according to its revused schedule.One can't comment on the second Akula imbroglio .We do not know the undercurrents if linked to the ATV programme,etc.I would suggest that it is a cost factor .However,just on Akula-2 makes little sense,especially as the ATV has yet to enter sevice-at this rate some considerable time off.Russia's oil bonanza in recent years has made it poss. only now for the restructuring to take place.The coming decade will see a whole host of new weapon systems replacing production of all Soviet era designed weaponry.

Aus.get in touch wiith Shiv.Plz.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jun 2011 22:59

Indian Navy touts 'significant success' in fighting pirates

NEW DELHI, June 6 (RIA Novosti) - India has deployed naval vessels in the eastern Arabian Sea and has achieved "significant success" in the past few months combating piracy in the area as pirates have extended their activities further from the coast of Somalia, Admiral Nirmal Verma, chief of staff of the Indian Navy, said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

"Significant success in disrupting pirate action groups in the east Arabian Sea has been achieved in recent months" after India sent its naval vessels to the area to counter an increase in pirate activity there, first noticed in November of last year, the admiral said.

Speaking to RIA Novosti in his office in New Delhi, Verma explained that pirates in the Gulf of Aden and the east Arabian Sea had changed tactics and were now often targeting larger ships to hijack and use as temporary bases, making it necessary for the navies of India and other countries to adjust their deployments accordingly to counteract the pirates.

"Efforts of international navies have been quite effective in bringing down the success rates of piracy. Action by navies has considerably restricted freedom of operations to the pirates and has deterred and dissuaded them from carrying out attacks in areas where navies are currently deployed," Verma said.

India started anti-piracy patrols in the Gulf of Aden in October 2008.

Since then, the Indian Navy has continuously maintained at least one ship on patrol in the region on a rotation basis. The Indian warships have ensured safe passage of over 1,600 commercial vessels from 50 different countries.

"No ship under Indian Naval escort has been hijacked and Indian Naval units have disrupted a total of 31 piracy attempts," Verman said.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 07 Jun 2011 08:19

Indian Naval ship Kabra commissioning on Jun 8

The latest Fast Attack Craft of the Indian Navy, to be named ‘INS Kabra’, will be commissioned on June 8 here. Vice Admiral K N sushil, Flag Officer Commanding-in-chief, Southern Naval Command, would commission the ship at a function to be held at South Jetty, Southern Naval Command, a Naval release said today.

http://idrw.org/?p=2343#more-2343

India receives combat management systems for Scorpene submarines

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 07 Jun 2011 19:17

IANS

French Shipbuilder DCNS Delivers Combat Management Systems for Scorpene Submarines

India receives combat management systems for Scorpene submarines

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 07 Jun 2011 21:32

Boeing's presentation on the Indian P-8I

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6206/92436538.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2280/69927020.jpg
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8881/99358274.jpg
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/6082/96435606.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4661/36504986.jpg
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/4160/97722339.jpg

Admin Note: Please do not post large images in threads. Not everyone has fast internet connections.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 08 Jun 2011 12:37

That's one fully loaded baby. Fuselage bomb racks, wing missile pylons and internal torpedo bay. Two different radars, two sonobuoy launchers, EO ball and MAD...

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 08 Jun 2011 12:57

tsarkar wrote:That's one fully loaded baby. Fuselage bomb racks, wing missile pylons and internal torpedo bay. Two different radars, two sonobuoy launchers, EO ball and MAD...

Indeed saar you can see four harpoons and a line of torps in the aft bay!.

Interesting thing is look at the map of Desh that the buggers are using

IIRC the Eurofighter guys also used that exact same map onlee when they did a spread on the EF in the MRCA competetion in the Eurofighter world magazine. My take Khan and Euros are trying to tickle Desh vasis emotionally onlee

Jokes aside the P8 will be an awesome added capability for the IN. Heres to hoping that the IN gets another 12

The other thing is the radars that this baby is carrying are no altu faltu navigation radars. These things combined with the comprehensive passive suite comprising of EO/IR + ESM ityadi will effectively identify targets of opportunity for marauding flightls of Rambhas unleashing flights of Nirbhays/Brahmoses....Poseidon will indeed shake up the waves in the IOR staying true to its name.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Jun 2011 13:54

INS Kabra joins Indian Navy

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 08 Jun 2011 14:33

INS Satpura, the second P17 warship appears to be ready for sea trials and eventual induction. The vessel has been moved out of Mazgaon Docks and is in a neighbouring dockyard.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jun 2011 16:15

the slides show a huge external RF jammer pod also.
so potentially it can carry 6 harpoons (4 underwing, 2 tandem pylons under fuselage) and 4 LWT torpedos in bomb bay.

pretty good looking and balanced set of capabilities imo. and most importantly business class seating for workstations and rest area (hopefully a bunk or two also) and a comfortable space for toilets and food storage. heh heh.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Jun 2011 17:23

How come no one commented on SLAM-ER in the 4th pic mentioned under the "growth potential"?

Given the 250kms range, it falls under the MTCR radar and can sure add lot of firepower to the IN.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 08 Jun 2011 18:47

rohitvats wrote:How come no one commented on SLAM-ER in the 4th pic mentioned under the "growth potential"?

Given the 250kms range, it falls under the MTCR radar and can sure add lot of firepower to the IN.

Saar me thinks they have done a ddm onlee...slam er has this weird shape nose due to its unique eo/ir sensor whereas the harpoons in the 4th pic have the usual semi Sharp radar nose....could b wrong though.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 08 Jun 2011 19:49

Gagan wrote:INS Satpura, the second P17 warship appears to be ready for sea trials and eventual induction. The vessel has been moved out of Mazgaon Docks and is in a neighbouring dockyard.

Good news, what about the P15-A destroyers, all there have been launched and are getting fitted out in the Karampa wet basin? if P15As and P17s are all completed, what is Mazagon building (apart from the subs)?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 08 Jun 2011 23:24

tsarkar wrote:That's one fully loaded baby. Fuselage bomb racks, wing missile pylons and internal torpedo bay. Two different radars, two sonobuoy launchers, EO ball and MAD...

No probe for IFR

jagbani · Post by **jagbani** » 09 Jun 2011 13:46

Warship INS Kabra joins Indian Navy

http://www.punjabkesari.in/punjab/news/ ... 1/Page/2$1

India's latest warship 'INS Kabra' was commissioned at Naval Base here by Vice Admiral K N Sushil, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Southern Naval Command on Wednesday

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jun 2011 14:19

for those in india , discovery HD has a pgm running periodically on the HMS Ark Royal.

its time for similar programs on INS Shivalik, INS Jalashwa and INS Sindhushastra imo, followed a few yrs later by the Arihant.

being the RN, which has adopted austereity, the pgm seems to cover her final voyage..still some beautiful footage and there's always stuff to learn
http://press.discovery.com/uk/dsc/progr ... l-journey/

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 09 Jun 2011 14:44

Gagan wrote:INS Satpura, the second P17 warship appears to be ready for sea trials and eventual induction. The vessel has been moved out of Mazgaon Docks and is in a neighbouring dockyard.

It's in Indira dock, the same place Shivalik was when on sea trials. Can be seen on Google already for at least a month. There's still a lot of "clutter" on the upper deck and helipad.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Jun 2011 14:48

Some classic comment from the old enemy! Pak is despeartely trying to get the PLAN to base itself at Gwadar as a divorce with the US may be on the cards.GP,our former HC in Pak, in a media article, has drawn attention to the PRC downplaying the use of Gwadar as a PRC naval base ,saying that the existing lease to the Japanese co. must run out as planned -2040 or thereabouts.Whether one must take that with a pinch of salt,it is a fact that the PRC is downplaying a grab of Gwadar for fear of further alarming Western and Asian nations.Finally admission has come from the PLAN that the Varyag,bought under the ruse of becoming a "floating casino" has been extrensively renovated into becoming China's first genuine carrier.4 more carriers based upon the Varyag's design are planned with the Chinese version of the SU-33 as main strike aircraft to be followed up in the future with a naval version of China's stealth aircraft under development.

These 65000t carriers will dwarf India's planned 40,000t IACs and the Gorshkov/Vik.It is a sad fact that the Varyag was first offered to India many moons ago,but our shortsighted inspectors/babus dithered for years and turned the offer down and instead plumped for the more difficult task of buying (sorry ,it was supposedly offered free as was the Varyah !) the smaller Gorshkov,a cruiser-carrier,which required far more extensive renovations to turn it into a true flat-top,as we have regretfully found out,but with limitations as to the size of aircraft it could carry.The arrival of the Varyag in PLAN service will surely spur the IN to build far larger carriers from IAC-2 which can carry larger numbers of larger aircraft,helos and UAVs,than the Gorshkov/Vik and the Viraat.

With the announcement of the PLAN's carrier ambitions,plus its plans for at least access to ports and bases in pak,BDesh,Burma,Lanka,etc.,there is no doubt now about China's maritime ambitions and the IN will have to redraft its strategic plans ,fleet inventory,acquisition,etc. to meet the future PLAN armada.A naval "outpost" in Vietnam now must be seriously examined ,a venture which will benefit both nations.One must remember that while the PLAN may not want openly to control operations of Gwadar,and establish a Chinese naval base,but there is nothing to stop PLAN warships and subs using ther base at will with an agreement with Pak notwithstanding anyone else who might managing the port! This is an inevitability and India must not get connnfused with the statements emanating from the PRC of their non-interest in a base at Gawadar.

Here are the gems from our neighbour in an article.

http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=96219
India’s unusual intelligence and naval activism

"...it seems as if the Indians are bracing themselves for some sort of a naval war. The exercises are massive and include anti-submarine welfare, surface welfare, ..."

The US also apparently want to use Gawadar as a "save passage" to pre-empt the Chinese!

More on the PLAN's ambitions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13693495

Aircraft carrier symbol of China's naval ambitions
By Damian Grammaticas
BBC News, Dalian

"An aircraft carrier is a symbol of the power of your navy," says General Xu Guangyu, who used to serve in the PLA's headquarters and is now retired.

"China should at least be on the same level as other permanent members of the UN Security Council who have carriers."

"It's also a symbol of deterrence," adds Gen Xu, "It's like saying, 'Don't mess with me. Don't think you can bully me.' So it's normal for us to want a carrier. I actually think it's strange if China doesn't have one."

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 09 Jun 2011 14:57

^^^^^Philip I humbly disagree yes the PLAN got the Varyag and are photoshopping it now

fine good on em. In my opinion the Carriers are simply not as important as the subs. We need more subs as of yesterday. I strongly think in the immediate term more impetus needs to be provided for the submarine arm. The carriers will come in due time...JMT

Further look at the IAF right now and into its immediate future we have regular induction of Rambha with the impending acquisition of Tiffy/Rafale. I would think that naval Anti ship warfare capabilities will be increasing fairly rapidly in the next few years and the tolls that Rambha will use Brahmos/Nirbhay outrange most or all of the sams that we may face in the IOR region. The MRCA will further enhance this capability and add to that Phalcons, Indian AEW, P8 etc. Plus lets not forget that the Kolkatta and follow on P15B will have a pretty comprehensive SAM capability they are not pushovers by any measure. Agreed we may not have enough fighters on carriers to go up against enemy fighters but we should also remember the fighter we do have on land have reasonably long legs and will be able to venture out in the IOR.

Overall I think we can wait for carriers longer but we just cant wait for subs.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Jun 2011 15:08

True Andy,with the PLAN's carrier ambitions revealed officially,the need for the IN to augment its sub fleet is paramount.This would be an ideal inventory.6 SSBNs (ATV-1 and larger2s),6-SSGNs (Akulas and indigenous SSGNs based upon the ATV-1 design),6-8 AIP Scorpenes,4+4 U-209s (upgraded)/214s,8 Kilo/Kilo replacements with Brahmos and 12+ 12 midget and mini subs.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 09 Jun 2011 15:15

Although the completion of the Varyag is a big milestone, I think it is much hyped.Remember whenever talking about countering America's super carriers the Chinese always played the card that these aircraft carriers are too big and how anti-ship missiles can render them useless .I think the same applies to the Varyag.India can play the Brahmos and other anti-ship missiles card.With the Gorkshov and IAC-1 combined and of course submarines and anti-ship missiles we can counter this threat.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Jun 2011 15:17

Philip wrote:True Andy,with the PLAN's carrier ambitions revealed officially,the need for the IN to augment its sub fleet is paramount.This would be an ideal inventory.6 SSBNs (ATV-1 and larger2s),6-SSGNs (Akulas and indigenous SSGNs based upon the ATV-1 design),6-8 AIP Scorpenes,4+4 U-209s (upgraded)/214s,8 Kilo/Kilo replacements with Brahmos and 12+ 12 midget and mini subs.

I am sure Philip even the Admirals wont dream of such sub fleet in the next 25 years

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 09 Jun 2011 15:33

Philip wrote:True Andy,with the PLAN's carrier ambitions revealed officially,the need for the IN to augment its sub fleet is paramount.This would be an ideal inventory.6 SSBNs (ATV-1 and larger2s),6-SSGNs (Akulas and indigenous SSGNs based upon the ATV-1 design),6-8 AIP Scorpenes,4+4 U-209s (upgraded)/214s,8 Kilo/Kilo replacements with Brahmos and 12+ 12 midget and mini subs.

Philip saar, such a formidable sub inventory is not possible in the near to medium future. For containment of PLAN, we need to keep track of the Natural choke points, which unfortunately also means littoral waters. What's needed are small to medium (1000-1500) tons AIP equipped subs (brahmos and heavy torps), which can move around slowly submerged for long duration in the shallows is what would suffice. Please note that it would be a formidable challenge to go and fight with PLAN in the South China Sea. Hence, 9-12 of such vessels would mean that that 3-4 are available for preventing the PLAN to get out. Back them up with good Air assets.

Another 12-14 2500-3500 tons big AIP subs should suffice to check PN. Throw in 1-2 SSBN ( Arihant & friends) and 1-2 Akulas on lease. If we can achieve this by 2018-2020, we would have decent sub arm. My two cents.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jun 2011 16:53

> Please note that it would be a formidable challenge to go and fight with PLAN in the South China Sea.

if we are going to give a free pass to PLAN to prowl all over our littoral waters and depend on small subs to keep them at bay, its nothing short of defending india from the ramparts of patna and lucknow.

the PLAN will need to be fought in the south and east china sea, first by submarines and later by carrier air groups when we have it. these airwings will also provide cover for P8I working the seas of that area.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Jun 2011 17:15

It is a sad fact that the Varyag was first offered to India many moons ago,but our shortsighted inspectors/babus dithered for years and turned the offer down

If Gorshkov saga is anything to go by, i for once am thankful to those inspectors for turning down the "offer"

John · Post by **John** » 09 Jun 2011 17:33

Ajatshatru wrote:Philip wrote:
It is a sad fact that the Varyag was first offered to India many moons ago,but our shortsighted inspectors/babus dithered for years and turned the offer down
Wasn't there also some talk of berthing issues for such a large ship in India had India bought the ship at that time and this, perhaps, could have been one of the reasons for the refusal?

We don't have the capability to refit or even base a ship the size of Varyag.

rasiklal · Post by **rasiklal** » 09 Jun 2011 17:34

The IAF and IN conducted a joint long range strike a few months back in which the IN vectored Rambhas flying in long and deep for over 6 hours or so all the way from W.India to around Indira Point. I don't remember the details. As for PLAN building up multiple carrier battle groups, that's a stretch, and much more than a matter of money. It costs about $20 billion a year to maintain a CBG, and some fleets of the USN have four CBGs (or at least four carriers attached to them) - one on active duty, one returning to base for maintenance, one underway to sea, and one in the docks. Apart from being a very expensive business, the USN has achieved this level of training after 1000s of man-years of experience. Those skills will not happen overnight.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Jun 2011 18:07

Look,China is going to possess a sub fleet of around 70-80 nuclear and conventional/AIP subs by 2020! Do you honestly think that 18-24 subs n IN service will be able to take care of China plus Pak's own inventory of 8-12 subs? What about the entrance into the IOR of subs belonging to nations that never operated them like Malayisa and Singapore.These countries plan to have at least 6-8 subs alone! Vietnam is buying a large number of Kilos and the SoKos and Japanese will operate around 24-30+ subs each.therefore,a combination of a large sub inventory which is supported by LRMP aircraft,allowing multi-ocean ops.

I fell that the IN should stop building/operating smaller patrol craft of the type we are seeing indcuted and cncentrate upon building and operating only blue water assets.Coastal/brown water assets should come under the purview of the CG which itself is under the IN and even tasks like mine countermeasures,harbour defence,and gun armed fast attack craft be delegated and under CG control.Light frigate sized corvettes and OPVs would constitute the larger assets of the CG,which must also perform coastal ASW duties.Small IN Pauk class sized ASW corvettes could easily be operated by the CG,which could enlarge its "defensive" posture,defending the ports and bases,allowing the IN to be a dominating offensive service,"offence being the best form of defence"! This would help augment the IN's budget to acquire more lethal assets like blue water surface combatants,amphibious ships and subs,apart from capital ships like carriers and even heavy cruisers/battlecruisers which we will need in the future part of pur carrier task forces.We do not know whether we will also have to develop ABM naval assets like the US,Japan,etc.

If you look at our sub inventory,we have a unique mix of west and east ,now being joined with our own nuclear subs,which have Russian input.Western conventional subs,have either fuel-cell (German,Russian and our own under development),Stirling (Swedish) and French MESMA AIP systems.Which system will eventually triumph and be the most sought after is still unknown.We have French Scorpene subs on order,plus operate 4 German U-boats which are being upgraded.It would only be logical therefore and now that there are no sanctions against HDW,to acquire U-1214s designed to our reqs. to first seve alongside the earlier upgraded U-boats and then replace them.The problem with both the French and German subs is that they are too small to carry sub-launched Brahmos.This is because we needs subs for both littoral and blue-water operations and the smaller wetsern subs would be better suited to the hunter-killer role.The US is operating/leasing Swedish conventional subs to acquie littoral warfare skills.

We therefore have to have a third line of Indo-Russian subs that can carry Brahmos which will gradually replace the earlier Kilos and then the upgraded Kilos with the Klub missile which has far greater range than Exocet and is the best/only sub-launched missile that our subs possess at this time! We do not know when an Indian long-range cruise missile will arrive in service,Nirbhay/whatever, which can then be used on the U-boats just as Israel is doing with its German built Dolfins which have two sizes of tubes for the same purpose-able to fire nuclear tipped missiles from them.

Ater operating the U-boats and Scorpenes,and evaluating which AIP system,etc., is best for our needs,a future Indian designed conventional AIP sub ,or family of subs (like the Amur) that can meet both littoral/blue water ops should be constructed.If you look at China,the PLAN is not bothered about developing three,even four types of conventional subs to meet its varied tasks till its finds the best designs.Standardisation of internal eqpt. and weaponry where possible,could make its easier for maintenance,spares,support,etc.

The IN must think beyond the IOR for the future.As our global economic footprint increases and spreads across the continents,so too should it be supported by a vibrant navy that has a global reach,protecting its trade and interests.The overwhelming % of our energy supplies comes form afar. History has also shown that nations that neglect their navies and remain land-oriuented,eventually suffer the consequences of invasion and attack.

PS:As for berthing the Varyag/sized carrier,what about Karwar?If it was not for Adm.Dawson's foresight where would we be now for a berth for the Gorky? We must think boldly with VISION,otherwise we will be bound in the shallows forever,at the mercy of more adventurous nations.Look at Pak,which is happily building Agosta AIP subs,while the first non-AIP Scorpene will still take afew years to arrive.Back to the Varyag/Gorky renovations.It would've been far easier to renovate a genuine flat-top (Varyag),with its large flight deck,ski-jump,hangars,internal spaces,magazines,etc., than the hybrid carrier (Gorky),meant only for helos and VSTOL Yakolev aircraft,which required removal of all missiles and weaponry ,installation of a ski-jump,modifications to the smaller flight deck,installation of aircraft deck-landing eqpt.,arrstor wires,etc., so that MIG-29Ks could operate and major internal modiifications to be able to support a larger number of fixed-wing aircraft and helos.This would've not been neccessary on the Varyag's refit as she already had them but required extensive repairs to her hull and installation of intended internal eqpt.,weaponry and sensors.One major advantage wiht the larger carrier is that she can also operate in the future a Chinese develoiped fixed-wing AEW aircraft, under dev.,with better performance than our AEW KA-31 helos which is all that we can accomodate on the Gorky unless we acquire the Merlin AEW system,still a helo based AEW radar.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Jun 2011 19:28

Realistically speaking according to IN own plans by 2025 - 2030 they want to have a fleet of 24 conventional SSK ( 12 imported + 12 indian designed ) ! It would be great if we could stick to that plan and achieve it during that time frame , if past experience is anything to go by we either end up not achieving it or best case just manage to scrap it through.

As far as surface ships and other fleet vessel goes , we will end up having the same number as we have it right now , according to IN Admiral the rate of induction of ships would match the rate of decommissioning old ships , so though qualitatively we have better ships we will have by and large the same fleet strength.

Now the problem is IN gets a very small share of total defense budget which is ~ 13 % with that kind of Naval budget we cannot hope to increase our fleet strength even if IN would like to do it , although IN manages to invest 50 % of it for procurement and other programs which is commendable.

Comparing to PLAN it would depend on how our defense budget manages to keep up , China spends more than ~ $100 billion in defence budget more if you want to believe DOD , to really match up with China we will have to exponentially increase our defence spending and manage our procurement/development program well and under budget. We will have to spend nearly 4-5 % of our GDP consistently on defense budget and utilise the funds well and that kind of budget i dont see it happening ofcourse the GOI has many problems to solve in this country and they will have genuine constrain in spending those kind of money.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Jun 2011 19:37

Indian Navy all set to welcome INS Vikramaditya
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 40761.html

Gautam Datt | New Delhi, June 8, 2011

The Indian Navy is all set to welcome the INS Vikramaditya. The navy set the ball rolling to integrate the aircraft carrier (earlier known as the Admiral Gorshkov) with its fleet as the warship, being redone at a Russian shipyard, readies to sail home in early 2013.

The integration plan was discussed at a recent meeting of naval commanders in New Delhi as some key "firsts" are associated with the ship. More than double the size of existing aircraft carrier INS Viraat, it will be the biggest warship ever to be operated by the Indian Navy. The second crucial aspect is that for the first time, the navy would be operating supersonic combat jets from the flight deck. Once it arrives, the naval fleet will have to be arranged around it, as the Vikramaditya would become the central platform.

The fleet rearrangement is also necessitated by the fact that the navy is in the middle of a modernisation drive as many warships are under construction. It is estimated that by the time the Vikramaditya joins the fleet, the navy would have added the remaining two of the state-of-the-art multirole Shivalik-class stealth frigates, the first of which has already been delivered. It would also have at least two new antisubmarine warfare corvettes. The navy will also get three new potent Talwar-class frigates, being built in Russia. In fact, close to 40 new warships are under construction at various shipyards in the country. This means that the fleet will not only grow in numbers but will also have modern warships.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 09 Jun 2011 19:57

Singha wrote:> if we are going to give a free pass to PLAN to prowl all over our littoral waters and depend on small subs to keep them at bay, its nothing short of defending india from the ramparts of patna and lucknow.
the PLAN will need to be fought in the south and east china sea, first by submarines and later by carrier air groups when we have it. these airwings will also provide cover for P8I working the seas of that area.

Singha sir, what you are proposing is something which would be great to have capability, but taking into consideration our resources, such a capability is not going be there in the near to medium term. With all due respect even, USN would have great difficulty in fighting the chinese in the South China Sea. USN might eventually win, but the cost would such that it would be a Pyrrhic victory. ( Please note that I am not tom toying that the yet to seen, ( uber stealthy

) anti carrier ballistic missile would tilt the balance. As far as I am concerned, its just an idea right now, would believe its effectiveness when its demostrated )

Hence, the realistic concept of choking the PLAN. No matter how big PLAN gets, its ships cannot fly over the limitation that geography has put them into. Please note that I am saying to defend the chokes, do not let them get into the Indian Ocean. Thats why 9-12 subs to sit waiting in the choke points. Also large number of MPAs and Long range fighters.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 09 Jun 2011 20:09

I too want a huge sub inventory of around 40 subs at least. However I do not see it happening in the near to medium term, because of what our budgets are. Thats why 20-24 AIP subs. Also I think, we should invest a lot more in MPAs. We should take a leaf out of Japan in this case, which operates about 80+ P3Cs. We too should invest heavily in this department. 20-24 P8I and 20-30 Medium Range MPAs. All this augmented by at least 40-60 IN Su-30 (land based). This should be a formidable capability in keeping the Andaman Sea and the Arabian Sea clean.

I have been thinking if we can make a nuclear submarine, why cannot we start our own convention sub design. Involve L&T. Those chaps have chipped in for the ATV project. Its time we also give them the oppurtunity to make a conventional sub. Design the sub around capability to fire Brahmos & Nirbhay. DRDO is already making a fuel cell based AIP. Include this in design. Gosh we already have world class Sonars in the HUMSA. And who says we need to make it the most compact. it could be 3000-3500 tons. Atleast lets start.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 10 Jun 2011 05:43

I think this is the right time to start a new topic on aircraft carrier group dovelopment. Russia will deliver carrier vikm'ya by 2013 end, then our indignous one will come around 2015. I think till then we have suffice span to discuss the group dovelopment, its communication network link, sub group( Arihant class, destroyer, air nevigation, serviliance, group area of deployment, service, and initial training.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 10 Jun 2011 07:28

will IN buy 6 subs from Russian to keep them happy & to quickly fill the shortfall in numbers of Subs

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jun 2011 08:19

which would be better for India? - smallish subs of the Scorpene/U212 type or larger "ocean going" of the Collins/Soryu type which are big as smaller SSNs.

smaller subs will no doubt be cheaper at the same tech level, need lesser crew and opex, but suffer from less endurance and less number of weapons or room for extras like SEAL delivery capsule, VLS tube array and such. a typical fight with a SAG will expend likely half its typical payload of 12-14 weapons in fwd torpedo room.

bigger subs can have say 8xVLS, escape spheres for the whole crew, SEAL delivery chamber, greater number of weapons (2x or 3x) and greater range. reserving the VLS for ASMs or Nirbhay frees up the fwd torpedo room for a large num of HWT - the real large-ship killers.

smaller subs are probably ok if we limit our ambitions between malacca to the horn of africa.

but if we want to range further afield and fight in the IOR-pacific xchange chokepoins like the java, sunda and lombok straits or pass through them to fight in the south china sea its probably best to have Oyashio type large SSK because the cost of SSNs is prohibitive and I dont see us having the $$ or build rate for hunter-killer SSN fleet in next 2 decades....whatever we build will be strategic SLBM/SLCM platforms and held for deterrence patrols only. the international straits passing between the indonesian islands is the route which SSN/SSBN of every nation use to pass between the two oceans. bottling up Malacca is a useless exercise because submarines or SAGs will not use that obvious route.

the japanese claim to be our great dharmic friends and the germans who supplied some of the machinery and optronics for Soryu invented sanskrit and are our 'arya' biraders. so isnt it time we opened talks with them and asked what they can do for us - if they want to benefit from our surging markets more and more ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dry% ... _submarine

http://www.military-today.com/navy/soryu_class_l2.jpg