The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

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Nesoj
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Nesoj »

somnath wrote:The Irom Sharmila case is pertinent...Unlike what Nesoj seems to imply (I may be wrong), she isnt really "fasting" - they are force feeding her in a hospital for 11 years..
By no way was I implying that she is 'off any form of nourishment for 11 years' ... I was just responding to the query of what would happen to RD in case his health deteriorated.

The GOI has no qualms in force feeding .... the Sharmila case was quoted as an extreme example of how they are doing this for the past 11 years
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Sanku »

somnath wrote: you havent been reading my posts!
Actually no one really READS your post, they use it for purposes of a emetic after the junk that the DiE media fills humans with.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Virupaksha »

How do p-secs define politics and communalism?

So Geelani asking secession is not politics. Amul Baby's guru speaking of mumbai terrorism as caused by "hindu fundamentalists" is not politics? Yuvraj telling lies of burning people alive is not politics, but is the revealed and final truth book. When Hazare was fasting and Sonia found it convenient to praise it is not politics. Rajmata bringing in her assosciated scum unelected in the form of NAC is not politcs. Her hobnobbing with MIM/IUML is not communal. Her careful enjoying of power without responsibility is not politics. Her eating money along and then ditching allies when inconvenient is not politics and sound bytes. Her using Govenor's post to intimidate opposition state govts is not politics. Her bringing of a blatant Hindu-crushing law in the garb of riot act is not communal.

Trying to rise India's flag and singing vandemataram are of course political and communal. The issue of corruption was apolitical as long as AH was following the Sonia's diktat but it became political when it stopped convenient.

Because as I see it, corruption issue is as political as it gets, whether raised by AH or BR or BJP. Preparing a law is as political as it gets. Campaigning for removal of a law is as political as it gets. Ruling a country is as political as it gets. Being a minister and following orders from non-executive is as political as it gets.

Can some one clarify me about what is politics and what is communal in the world of these p-secs.
The only answer I get is by what is convenient to the dynasty is apolitical and non-communal, while whatever is not convenient is political and communal.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Singha »

BRD has fasted only for 4 days so far? he is fit and relatively young.
people tend to die from fasting around the 15-20 day mark afaik, jain monks who fast themselves to death at the end of life usually pass away at that stage.

its not relevant to the discussion how Irom sharmila has managed to survive so long. for that matter reports emerge of sadhus emerging from caves in the himalaya after 10 year penances. they are superhuman maybe, let it be.

but all this hu-ha detracts from the main discussion:
- congress has done all it can to make sure the bofors money and links to shady businessmen like Quatrochi are never opened up. because oops because it touches so close to home
- it let people like raja and kalmadi loot around for years for the sake of political support and maybe some black files kalmadi had collected in self defence
- it acted against DMK only after their electoral alliance broke down and it appeared clear that JJ would win handsomely
- it is still protecting a large collection of crooks closer to its inner circle
- it has made a mockery of secularism and national interests giving openings to even TSP to do ==, sold out in WTO doha etc.
- it has no real internal democracy and cabals and coteries rule the roost
- its unable to do anything about powerful politicians with links to mafia's - electoral interests and black files held in defence
- reduced most of the media to a troop of paid kangaroos "jump when i say jump"

its probably not the worst party in the political space, but it has to do much much better to not be called a family run korrupt octupus.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Nesoj »

Pranav wrote: Nesoj, you would be more credible if you stopped lying. Ramdev did not claim a cure for AIDS.
YogaPranayama
http://yogapranayama.com/
HIV & AIDS:
On 'India TV' & couple of other TV Channels, on Dec. 22 & 23, 2006, Swami Ramdev Ji said that Yoga Pranayama & the ayurvedic & Herbal Medicines suggested by him can control & cure AIDS. He added that the CD4 Cell count of the people affected by AIDS, which had fallen to 50; 100; 150 have gone up to 400; 500; & even 600, which is quite normal. He added that even the people with CD4 Cell count of 5 to 10 have benefited. CD4 cells (T4 count, T-helper cells) are a class of immune cells that gradually get depleted in HIV infection.
Baba Ramdev Finally Discovers Cure for AIDS: A Herbal Condom
http://newsthatmattersnot.com/2010/01/b ... -aids.html

Please do your homework before you post and make a fool of yourself (in case you doubt the source.... the first was HIS official website)
Last edited by Nesoj on 09 Jun 2011 10:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by devesh »

Nesoj wrote:
somnath wrote:The Irom Sharmila case is pertinent...Unlike what Nesoj seems to imply (I may be wrong), she isnt really "fasting" - they are force feeding her in a hospital for 11 years..
By no way was I implying that she is 'off any form of nourishment for 11 years' ... I was just responding to the query of what would happen to RD in case his health deteriorated.

The GOI has no qualms in force feeding .... the Sharmila case was quoted as an extreme example of how they are doing this for the past 11 years

actually that's exactly what you were claiming. why all the flame baiting like "saffron chaddis." we understand by now that you are a Hindu hater. anything "saffron" is to be hated. fine. we get it. just say it out loud and clear your system. this entire episode with Baba is nothing but a hatred of Hindus, that is rabid in Maino and her chamchas.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Pranav »

Nesoj wrote:
YogaPranayama
http://yogapranayama.com/
HIV & AIDS:

On 'India TV' & couple of other TV Channels, on Dec. 22 & 23, 2006, Swami Ramdev Ji said that Yoga Pranayama & the ayurvedic & Herbal Medicines suggested by him can control & cure AIDS. He added that the CD4 Cell count of the people affected by AIDS, which had fallen to 50; 100; 150 have gone up to 400; 500; & even 600, which is quite normal. He added that even the people with CD4 Cell count of 5 to 10 have benefited. CD4 cells (T4 count, T-helper cells) are a class of immune cells that gradually get depleted in HIV infection.
Baba Ramdev Finally Discovers Cure for AIDS: A Herbal Condom
http://newsthatmattersnot.com/2010/01/b ... -aids.html

Please do your homework before you post and make a fool of yourself (in case you doubt the source.... the first was HIS official website)
His official website is divyayoga.com. Keep trying.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by somnath »

Dhiman wrote:I am curious to know on what basis are you laying this requirement repeatedly that if someone has a better alternative, they should stand up for elections?
Simply because if that "someone" is not presenting anything useful as a narrative, being a general nuisance and providing enough excuses to the govt to wriggle out of tough questions that others are posing, then I can only conclude that the "someone" is interested not in the issue, but in the politics..In which case, I would like him to answer the questions that we would ask of any politician, on both the form and the substance of the message..
Dhiman wrote:he has been able to successfully force the government hands multiple times entirely through peaceful means
He has achieed exactly zero, besides generating terrabytes of publicity for himself...The govt has done nothing incremental on "black money"..Compare that to Arvind K's initiative, or indeed the initiative taken by Delhi citizens on Priyadarshini Mattoo - the focus is on the outcome, not the form of the emssenger, the outcomes therefore are vastly different..
Dhiman wrote:Isn't he already doing a great job of forcing the governments hands on corruption
Not at all..He is only giving the govt many more excuses to sidestep the real questions on the drift that seems to be enveoping the country, including on critical policymaking...As well as on corruption - have you heard anyone asking the govt any questions in the last 7 days on Dayanidhi Maran?
Dhiman wrote:Seems like an argument designed to influence people not to take anti-government measures. Basically a step towards lulling people into some sort of semi-congress-dictatorship
Social peace is not about agnosticism...But civic disturbance is aboslutely linked to prosperity, or the lack of it...Take WB, the prime reason why industry fled was because the city iused to be shut down half the time, or the roads blocked all the time!
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by ramana »

Guys stop taking potshots at each other. Will have to hand out warnings.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Pranav »

Delhi Police lacks photographic evidence to justify crackdown on Baba Ramdev

The Delhi Police are desperately trying to build up a case of rioting to justify their midnight swoop at the Ramlila grounds last week, which left around 68 people injured, with three still in critical condition.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 40894.html
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Sanku »

http://www.timesnow.tv/

Baba Ramdev, explaining the details of his assets and how the common people pooled money to donate to the cause.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by devesh »

being a general nuisance and providing enough excuses to the govt to wriggle out of tough questions that others are posing, then I can only conclude that the "someone" is interested not in the issue, but in the politics..In which case, I would like him to answer the questions that we would ask of any politician, on both the form and the substance of the message..
what tough questions??? the DMK guys were sacrificed when it was clear they were done in TN. once again, there was no urgency for INC in answering these so called "tough questions." the media is firmly in INC's pocket, with Hindu, HT, ToI, IE all doing their faithful jobs....

and "general nuisance?" that's your opinion. clearly lakhs of people don't believe that. and certainly not politicians from various parties...
He has achieed exactly zero, besides generating terrabytes of publicity for himself...The govt has done nothing incremental on "black money"..Compare that to Arvind K's initiative, or indeed the initiative taken by Delhi citizens on Priyadarshini Mattoo - the focus is on the outcome, not the form of the emssenger, the outcomes therefore are vastly different..
complete hogwash. he has highlighted the problem for Indian society. he has shown to what lengths INC will and can go.

you are comparing a rape/murder case with a systemic problem called corruption. seriously, this is the epitome or apples == oranges. absolutely no comparison. corruption in the political class is 10 orders of magnitude harder to combat, compared to a rape case of a single woman.

let me ask you a question Somnath: is it ok to lathi charge on sleeping women, elders, and children?
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by somnath »

devesh wrote:let me ask you a question Somnath: is it ok to lathi charge on sleeping women, elders, and children?
Not in the least..I said that at the very begning, the handling of the issue has been most pathetic - whether initially genuflecting before the Baba or later sending in cops...

I had asked this of (the many) Baba supporters earlier...If he has an objective (beyond positioning himself as a political animal), what is it? He started a "do this or I fast"...What is this "this"? Can someone list down so that a discussion can be had on the seriousness of those in "this"?
Especially in light of his earlier asertion that the "govt has agreed with 99% of his proposals"...
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Sri »

I feel this thread is hijacked onlee.

Lets just agree to disagree.

What RD did was legal. Whether GOI was legal in acting against the fast at midnight, is a question Supreme court will judge.

Corruption is a problem. For 60 years our political system has failed to act decisively against it. Whereas people have punished the corrupt by the way of ballot many times. This points to a systemic problem which our forefathers failed to address in 1950.

Now if some people want to force the issue on national agenda, then what way do they have? Private citizens are doing what they can. May be an opportunity for Mrs Gandhi to act decisively against corruption now. If she does, then she knows she has allies outside the congress too. If she doesn’t then maybe we have to wait till 2014 and hope for the best and of course, keep fasting as majority of Indians know, the fight against corruption is going to be long and bloody one.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by devesh »

^^^
agreed. we're going in circles. Somnath etc will never agree that a politically conscious Hindu has a right to protest.....so no point in this merry-go round.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Manishw »

Pranav wrote:
Delhi Police lacks photographic evidence to justify crackdown on Baba Ramdev

The Delhi Police are desperately trying to build up a case of rioting to justify their midnight swoop at the Ramlila grounds last week, which left around 68 people injured, with three still in critical condition.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 40894.html
The police does not need any case.They can use these lines-

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for RD, and you curse the mainos. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That the womans paralysis, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives.. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way. I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Twisted scrip from the film-A Few Good Men
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Dhiman »

somnath wrote: Simply because if that "someone" is not presenting anything useful as a narrative, being a general nuisance and providing enough excuses to the govt to wriggle out of tough questions that others are posing, then I can only conclude that the "someone" is interested not in the issue, but in the politics..In which case, I would like him to answer the questions that we would ask of any politician, on both the form and the substance of the message..
My apologies for saying this, but that sounds like a very narrow, subjective, and highly biased, personal opinion given that 1) he commands a massive following, 2) got GoI to agree to 90% of this demands, 3) got GoI's chaddis tied up in a knot, 4) managed to get the main opposition party to organize protest all over India. And all this without breaking ANY law and completely peacefully.



Dhiman wrote:Isn't he already doing a great job of forcing the governments hands on corruption
Not at all..He is only giving the govt many more excuses to sidestep the real questions on the drift that seems to be enveoping the country, including on critical policymaking...As well as on corruption - have you heard anyone asking the govt any questions in the last 7 days on Dayanidhi Maran?
[/quote]

At worst his "nuisance factor" is a reminder to the government that if they don't get their act straight Baba Ramdev and others such as himself will keep on appearing. Surely, you don't think that Ramdev is the only one in line? At best he has surely bought the issue of black money into public limelight got got GoI to agree to "90% of his demands". Just these two factors alone are major achievements by most standards.
Social peace is not about agnosticism...But civic disturbance is aboslutely linked to prosperity, or the lack of it...Take WB, the prime reason why industry fled was because the city iused to be shut down half the time, or the roads blocked all the time!
LOL, how many bands have been organized in this country by mainstream political parties. How many times have entire citi blocks, commercial destricts, businesses, hospitals, schools, airports, etc have been shutdown because of VVIP movement or mainstream political parties organize their own public rallies. I am surprised that an as an Indian you are complaining about these.

Again, whatever Ramdev has done has been in best tradition of Indian politics as set by mainstream ruling political parties, so worrying about Ramdev doing the same seems like a bit "abnormal" to me.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by sum »

Errr, wasnt the reason trotted out by esteemed khadi chaddi ( since rest are Khaki/saffron chaddis) spokesperson good enough for Delhi police:

Sadhvi Ritambhara was in the maidan which is too close to the walled city and might cause riots!!!
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by AjayKK »

Sanku wrote:
somnath wrote: you havent been reading my posts!
Actually no one really READS your post, they use it for purposes of a emetic after the junk that the DiE media fills humans with.

:rotfl:

Nesoj wrote:


Baba Ramdev Finally Discovers Cure for AIDS: A Herbal Condom
http://newsthatmattersnot.com/2010/01/b ... -aids.html

Please do your homework before you post and make a fool of yourself
Please read the last line of your post and then read the URL

newsthatmattersnot.com

News that matters NOT.
News That Matters Not is an Indian media satire, social sarcasm and humour news .WHAT’S UNIQUE ABOUT NTMN? We might be just another news satire website, but we wanted to be “first-of-its-kind” in something. So we say that we are the first-of-our-kind students’ humour network in India, since NTMN is run, managed, written, read and enjoyed mostly by college-going people who seldom study.
Trying to post this link in the forum certainly raises serious queries over certain abilities, or should it be said, lack of "comprhenshun iskills" is seen. None the less, a good attempt at trying to manufacture consent, better than the 10000 worded posts, read by none, which speak about Nehru, Shiv Sena, "communalism" and everything under the Sun, *except* the thread title and hijack the topic beyond repair.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by AjayKK »

Pranav wrote:
Delhi Police lacks photographic evidence to justify crackdown on Baba Ramdev

The Delhi Police are desperately trying to build up a case of rioting to justify their midnight swoop at the Ramlila grounds last week, which left around 68 people injured, with three still in critical condition.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 40894.html
Actually, the Delhi police has *all* the evidence needed. The 4 CCTVs and the recording box at the Ramlila maidan which catches them brutally assaulting the sleeping men, women and children are "missing" or were "stolen" when the power was cut...

'Police stole CCTV footages of Ramlila atrocities'
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Manishw »

The Indian police stealing.Tauba Tauba.In India they have never and I mean never taken even a rupee in corruption.This onlee RSS trick.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Manishw »

self delete double post.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Neela »

What Somnath wrote:
somnath wrote:nowhere close to that 60 lac crore or whatever number is bandied about by BR..When dived into, actual data comes out pretty contrary to expectations..That LGT Bank, which was supposed to have hundreds of billions of dollars, apparently has 40 crores, according to data furnished to the Supreme Court..
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/black ... st/801250/
What the article said:
The list of Indians with accounts in LGT Bank, in European tax haven Liechtenstein, that is now with the government shows that 18 individuals collectively put away Rs 39.66 crore during 2002-04 in trusts with the bank.



That is just Liechtenstein.And by no means is that the comprehensive list. That is just the names of people from a single institution. Have you even followed the whole story? Have you looked at athe agreement German authorities reached with the European banking institutions to comprehensively cover this? Are you implying that it is only one institute where all Indians would go to in Lichtenstein to hoard their money?
And you call BR an idiot?

From here : http://www.hindu.com/2011/06/04/stories ... 131400.htm
In the Indian context, the revenue foregone can be significant considering that different estimates on the quantum of black money range from US$ 500 billion to $1,400 billion and a recent study by Global Financial Integrity has estimated the illicit money outflow to be $ 462 billion] . If even a portion of that is held in Swiss accounts, India may at least have the satisfaction of earning some money from this stash — as a first step towards ensuring its eventual confiscation
.

If it wasn't clear to you ( and I think it still isn't ) , Liechtenstein isn't the only place where money can be stashed away.

Peddling half-truths and obfuscation speaks volumes on one's integrity. Especially so, when casting aspersions on BR. All wrapped in fancy English! I know where I can find such lot. Shallow!
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by somnath »

^^^Have you followed the LGT story? An ex-employee called Keiber entered into an agreement with the German tax authorities to reveal megabytes of client data..this was 2007 (or thereabouts)..The German govt offered to share the database with India under certain conditions...at that time, it was said that Indians accounted for billions of dollars in that list...When the list was finally revealed, first by Tehelka and then everywhere else, the number came to 40 crores from 18 people...

Where did I say that LGT is the only tax haven harbouring black money? I was only providing a perspective between rhetorical claims and real data..

Yes, I am aware of the GFI estimate - which is why I had posted Surjit Bhalla's take on the GFI data (which in turn is one third the number bandied around by BR) - again SB's own estimates are far lower...Now dont tell me that SB is a congress chamcha as well..

This isnt to minimise the issue of black money, only to show that it isnt nearly enough to flail aimlessly, and throw around some random numbers...If the issue is to be dealt with seriously, then it needs to be understood seriously as well...Sloganeering is poor substitute for analysis, whether for lobbying or for policy making...
Last edited by somnath on 09 Jun 2011 13:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Tamang »

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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Aditya_V »

Going through the comments on the page it would be more fair to say most Netizens are least bothered about her dance but the reall issue of Black Money. Yes the PR wing of the Congress(i.e Powerful Media Houses), however slamed her dancing.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Manishw »

somnath wrote: If the issue is to be dealt with seriously, then it needs to be understood seriously as well
Okay tell me if the common man by and large instinctively knows that tonnes of money has been sent abroad and he sees corruption daily in his life, he heard from his parents about corruption in India since he became aware what sort of serious analysis you propose him to take.
He wants an end to corruption and will support whomsoever he feels to be his own voice.He does not need people going around asking him to be serious or pouring through documents etc.
When corruption goes down he will know it automatically.
This serious talk etc are just other ways to keep him distracted while being looted by corruption.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by shaardula »

i have not read the complete thread. regarding rudradev's opus on this issue.

i did see news of a ramdev militia in multiple news sites. if ramdev is contemplating a militia i still maintain that it is a wrong move, that will distract from the actual issue and completely deflect focus from the excesses of the ruling elite. as it is the media and opion makers are looking for an escape, people like dipanker gupta are now peddling piskology on hindus as explanation of ramdev phenomena. hindus take enough hits like this on a normal days, we dont need to give them extra reason. infact this may be an opportunity to prove them wrong. this is congress' singur.

in addition we already have more than enough such militias and barely have a lid on them.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Manishw »

^^ No Idea if this militia thing was said by him or it was a plant from the media.Just starting on this path is pure suicide and the midnight lathi charge would look like a walk in the park and the whole world symbolically speaking will come down on the hindus like a ton of bricks.
I hope better sense prevails otherwise morally and legally he will be crushed like a bug.
Last edited by Manishw on 09 Jun 2011 14:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by SRoy »

^^

All that RD has said is martial arts training for self defence. Rest is twisted by the media.
It's high time RD inducts professional PR managers.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by somnath »

Manishw wrote:He does not need people going around asking him to be serious or pouring through documents etc.
The "common man" doesnt, but someone/people purporting to carry on "movements" to solve the issue need to...Is BR simply standing in line with millions of other people simply lamenting about black money? In which case, what was he negotiating secretly with the govt on? What indeed did he mean by saying that the "govt has accepted 99% of his proposals"? And of course, what was the fast about?

We were discssing the modus operandi and objectives of BR, not the "common man"...I am still at a loss on what is "this" that the good Baba wanted in order to not do the "fast", apparently 99% of of which was accpeted by the govt...

I keep going back to it - but compare this against the modus operandi /objectives of Arvind K and Co for Lokpal..They knew what they need to do, they had a draft (howsoever utopian) ready, their demands were clear, open and transparent...Aboive al, they achieved something tangible, a movement forward..

Or maybe, just maybe, the good Baba is attempting a live demonstration of how to bring transparency through a process of ambiguity and obfuscation and glib rustic talk! In the same vein as his live demostration to the differently oriented on specific asanas to cure the "disease" (I mean I assume he did his yoga while being cross dressed) :rotfl:

BTW..That armed militia thing came on live TV...

Interesting piece on the BR phenomenon by Dipankar Gupta...
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 40882.html
Last edited by somnath on 09 Jun 2011 14:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Manishw »

somnath wrote: The "common man" doesnt, but someone/people purporting to carry on "movements" to solve the issue need to...
That may be your idea, how can you speak for so many common men.How do you know that RD is not serious.All your posts are more of a smear campaign against RD rather than any serious proposal regarding black money.Come to think of it even the INC and its shills are doing the same.To me your post seems pretty non serious what with all the rolling and laughing.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by harbans »

Despite all the hoopla one thing these events have shown that's been missed out: Last few years i have been reading reports specially in Western media including some leftist Indian outlets is that corruption is a way of life, a culture. I never agreed to that pessimistic line of thought. What however has emerged is that people in India are very anti-corruption and socially conscious about it. Even yesterday at a pub i was surprised that some locals around requested stopping watching the Indian run chase for a small time peek at the news about Baba Ramdev. The larger picture that emerges is Indians as a whole want and desire to clean up the mess thrown up by a highly corrupt system. This has to throw up some very interesting results in future elections.
somnath
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by somnath »

Manishw wrote:That may be your idea, how can you speak for so many common men.How do you know that RD is not serious.All your posts are more of a smear campaign against RD rather than any serious proposal regarding black money
I do not, you did, by saying that the "common man" couldnt be bothered with the details...About BR's seriousness, I am yet to get an answer to that question:

What is "this" that he wanted done to not fast? Which was 99% accepted by the govt? And how are the "this" relevant/effective in fighting corruption?

About what can be done, again you didnt read the excellent article I posted by Ila Patnaik, where she talks of the GST and DTC reforms, pending for years now...
Manishw
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Manishw »

somnath wrote:Is BR simply standing in line with millions of other people simply lamenting about black money? In which case, what was he negotiating secretly with the govt on? What indeed did he mean by saying that the "govt has accepted 99% of his proposals"? And of course, what was the fast about?
Yes but no action was taken
somnath wrote: We were discssing the modus operandi and objectives of BR, not the "common man"...I am still at a loss on what is "this" that the good Baba wanted in order to not do the "fast", apparently 99% of of which was accpeted by the govt...
What strange fascination compels you towards focusing on RD and not black money or is it that the INC and its shills were afraid of his growing popularity.
somnath wrote: I keep going back to it - but compare this against the modus operandi /objectives of Arvind K and Co for Lokpal..They knew what they need to do, they had a draft (howsoever utopian) ready, their demands were clear, open and transparent...Aboive al, they achieved something tangible, a movement forward..
Why compare.Let anyone do as they see it fit.
somnath wrote: Or maybe, just maybe, the good Baba is attempting a live demonstration of how to bring transparency through a process of ambiguity and obfuscation and glib rustic talk! In the same vein as his live demostration to the differently oriented on specific asanas to cure the "disease" (I mean I assume he did his yoga while being cross dressed) :rotfl:
Pretty poor taste . Reminds me of Digvijay Singh oh He is also a INC shill.
somnath wrote: BTW..That armed militia thing came on live TV...

Interesting piece on the BR phenomenon by Dipankar Gupta...
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 40882.html
This endless smear campaign against RD is not going to lead anywhere.Better stick to corruption.But I guess shills cant.
somnath
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by somnath »

Manishw wrote:This endless smear campaign against RD is not going to lead anywhere.Better stick to corruption
Of course...Which is why I had posted SB's excellent take on extent of black money in the country..And then Ila Patnaik's take on essential tax reforms to tackle that...Some perspectives for a start..

Unfortunately, neither BR (!) is interested in these...Elevating BR (Ramdev!) to a pedestal and confidently plotting the impending revolution is more like it...I am only showing up that BR is neither a messiah nor a serious lobbyist for the ostensible issue, so he should be treated on the merits of what he is, a comic sideshow...

Unfortunately, if you want to seriously debate and lobby against corruption, you need to go into the details...
Manishw
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Manishw »

somnath wrote: Unfortunately, if you want to seriously debate and lobby against corruption, you need to go into the details...
Are you lobbying against corruption? If so kindly post details here so we can all know what you have done in your serious talks with the GOI or its representatives.
Last edited by Manishw on 09 Jun 2011 14:57, edited 1 time in total.
harbans
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by harbans »

There's no point in being dismissive of a POV specifically if thre's a way to objectively answer that. Somnath Ji is asking a simple question:

He started a "do this or I fast"...What is this "this"? Can someone list down so that a discussion can be had on the seriousness of those in "this"?

IMHO i doubt folks like AH and BR could throw up specifics to how to tackle corruption. Jaiprakash Narain for example may have been a very selfless person with high moral standing, but he was a socialist to the boot and so too AH. The brand of governance they endorsed has ironically been responsible for the state of corruption and licence raj system that we now associate with corruption. The cause behind corruption has to be looked into with much more cold logic and hard nosed economic policies than has been debated here. The big positive i feel that has emerged from BR and AH campaign is as i mentioned earlier, a massive anti corruption awareness in society. This is a very positive aspect as many future policies will be aimed at curbing the menace in our society.
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Sanku »

harbans-ji that information is trivialy easily available a google hit away, why dont you take the lead?
Manishw
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Re: Anna Hazare and Lokpal Bill

Post by Manishw »

^^ Good idea, I second that.
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