The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Jun 2011 10:15

^ Vanar raaj Sugriva it would perhaps make sense to limit the discussion to the topic of black money and corruption and not other things on BRD's manifesto, unless you can explain to us ignorants as to how those are related to the topic being discussed.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 10 Jun 2011 10:26

sugriva wrote:
VikramS wrote:Instead of doing a point by point belittling of RD's list of 10, he could have also spent some time refining them so that can be discussed in the context of the legal framework. But then the bhadralok will lose the high moral ground. How dare a Yadav from the Jatland tell them what is good for the nation, heh? Where will civil society go?
You truly are a devotee of Baba Ramdev. Want all the gain but no pain. The bhadralok is to be derided but is also expected to provide the brains to do the job Why should the onus of improving RD's proposals be on Somnath. RD's proposals are what they are, a politician's manifesto and they have been dealt with the way other politician's manifestos are dealt with. If you are really serious about RD's proposals why don't you go ahead and do the work. You have read Somnath's critique of the same and now have a good starting point. Now lets see what the non-bhadralok can come up with.

You didnt get the joke

Bhadralokites are duffers, they ruined a beautiful state like bengal with their stupidity and institutionalized corruption ,those people would be least interested in fighting corruption when they in the forefront of making corruption a 'necessary evil' for public. oh well duffers will remain duffers, bengalis kicked out all these commies and they have nothing better to do than support corrupt congress and earn some pocket money by abusing ramdev.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jun 2011 10:27

Sagarika, Somnath, Sugriva, Nesoj.....if I am not wrong all are Bengalis (would request the concerned to correct me if I am wrong).

I do think there is something quintessentially Bengali about these viewpoints, probably related to values inculcated in childhood. Please note that I am not implying one way or other that these viewpoints are either correct or incorrect. But it does interest me enough to understand this phenomenon better without necessarily getting into any negative stereotypes. Maybe related to the influence of a large number of Hindu reformist movements originating in Bengal in the 19th century, or maybe to the fact that the region has a more diverse religious background than say other parts of the nation. I have always found the topic of values and geographical / cultural influences on values fascinating - hence my post.

Probably OT for this thread - but happy to carry on elsewhere if there is interest.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 10 Jun 2011 10:35

Why do commie slaves hate middle class and ramdev?
Becoz their masters engel and marx told them to kill the middle class and usher in their wet dream of classless society. now since this lower class born ramdev earned enough respect among all classes and is leading them in a fight against corruption, commies have gone mental. these duffers question how could this lower class baba short circuit their wetdream of class war? Their whines and cries about attack on democracy by baba are fake, commies themselves hate democracy and want a dictatorship of the proletariat, so these shameless servile creatures of the congress are not to be trusted when they give sermons of democracy, time to expose these commie duffers.

vina · Post by **vina** » 10 Jun 2011 10:38

Arjun wrote:. Maybe related to the influence of a large number of Hindu reformist movements originating in Bengal in the 19th century, or maybe to the fact that the region has a more diverse religious background than say other parts of the nation.

To compare the greats of the Bengal Renaissance with the current crop of self appointed commie/leftist/frothing in the mouth/empty ideologues is a travesty. While the former were great intellectuals, revolutionaries and reformists in the true sense of the word (the last giant of that tradition being probably Aurobindo in my opinion), what we have today are a bunch of pygmies pretending that they are the same as the Giants that you talked about. There is a good word I have heard being used for these types .. ie "Athales" . It is a world of make believe. "Athales" trying to convince themselves and the rest of the world that they are the real enchilada.

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Jun 2011 10:43

You guys are reading too much into the Bong connection as far as the leftist slant is concerned; to be honest there are equally high number of Bongs on the right side (Chandan Mitra, Swapan DasGupta, Kanchan Gupta to name a few) and that's true even for the forum.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 10 Jun 2011 10:44

Arjun wrote:Sagarika, Somnath, Sugriva, Nesoj.....if I am not wrong all are Bengalis (would request the concerned to correct me if I am wrong).

I do think there is something quintessentially Bengali about these viewpoints, probably related to values inculcated in childhood. Please note that I am not implying one way or other that these viewpoints are either correct or incorrect. But it does interest me enough to understand this phenomenon better without necessarily getting into any negative stereotypes. Maybe related to the influence of a large number of Hindu reformist movements originating in Bengal in the 19th century, or maybe to the fact that the region has a more diverse religious background than say other parts of the nation. I have always found the topic of values and geographical / cultural influences on values fascinating - hence my post.

Probably OT for this thread - but happy to carry on elsewhere if there is interest.

Kolkatta was the capital of EIC for a long time before being shifted to delhi, so more time and money was spent by EIC to turn locals servile and in no way threatening their colonization plan.

Even today BBC hires bengali communists to abuse Indians, check the blog of Soutik Biswas on BBC, all abuses and whines against India. There is a need to reform these brainwashed bengalis and make them come out of this self hating destructive mentality.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 10 Jun 2011 10:49

negi wrote:You guys are reading too much into the Bong connection as far as the leftist slant is concerned; to be honest there are equally high number of Bongs on the right side (Chandan Mitra, Swapan DasGupta, Kanchan Gupta to name a few) and that's true even for the forum.

+100

almost all Bongs that I have met are rarely centrists. they have a very strong opinions which they believe in with almost sentimental involvement. they are either on this pole or that pole. A far rightist bong will put a bajrangi, a sikh and a staunch maratha to shame.. so, i would be careful before judging. in fact, i won't judge at all. I have once seen a reaction of an otherwise sober, erudite and calm bangabandhu to a paki guy in UQstan. the paki comes out of nowhere and starts asking us about IA's involvement in Kashmir and atrocities and usual bullcrap. while we are listening, the ice-cream candy in hand of our babumoshay friend, which was helping him ignore the hogwash fell down on ground, when paki started talking about kaluchak. the triple anger of partition, kargil (anger was fresh then) and fallen ice-cream converted that poetry loving babumoshay into tandava loving rudra.. the next 15 minutes, the paki was singlehandedly screwed so badly by babuji while we all were ROFling that his musharraf became as big as Gateway of India.. true story..

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Jun 2011 10:53

^ +1. Go easy on Bengalis. Other states have also produced many useless people.

Remember S. P. Mukherjee?

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 10 Jun 2011 11:25

Here is a tweet from a writer for ET
@jojiphilip
Joji Philip Thomas

Media too 2 blame 4 hyping up an illiterate lunatic like #ramdev,without debating his laughable understanding of economy,modern realities

Joji calls RD:
illiterate
lunatic
laughable understanding of economy:
modern realities:

illiterate: He studied till class 8 in formal schools. Then went on to study Sanskrit and Yoga.

lunatic: I guess all his millions of followers are also stupid especially have benefited from RD's ability to take Yoga to the masses.

laughable understanding of economy: An ET reporter should have a broad enough perspective to understand that a person who has been able to build assets of many hundreds of crores does understand a thing or two.

modern realities: Perhaps the Baba actually understand them better. He realizes that the pillars of the Indian Republic have been compromised to the point that her institutions can not be counted upon delivery justice. I think he made a comment somewhere that there are about 2 crore court cases pending! So much for a working system. Here on BR, we have Rahul Mehta's NJPRE mafia. RM did what he could do, he actually fought an Lok Sabha election and got a few thousand votes. BRD is doing what he can, increasing awareness and building a public consensus which very few people can.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Somnath's writing is just an expansion of what Joji said in 140 letters. They hit out at the details of BRD's message while missing the the point.

And he misses the whole point, because like Joji he is just not able to see beyond the bhumiputra's appearance. The contempt on display for BRD in the civil society is an indication of their sheer ignorance, myopia and self-importance.

And there were some inaccuracies in Somnath's rant which I pointed out but did not get any acknowledgement.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All this talk of holding the state to ransom is hogwash. The govt. was scared because it had lost its moral legitimacy to rule and the system does not provide the mechanisms to resolve those issues except a mid-term poll which no-one is prepared for.

A big point which everyone is missing is that the government could simply ignore BRD. They can say that they took cognizance of his protests. They could have asked his followers to leave during the day time instead of the mid-night lathi-charge. They chose to engage him and then cry foul. He did not hold anyone to ransom. If he chose to die via a fast, then that would have been his choice (I very much doubt it).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sugriva:

I have not been to India for many years and I do not get Indian channels here at home. I barely know who BRD is. I do know that my parents, both retired PhDs with decades of academic experience, have benefited his talks on Yoga.

However, I find the reaction of the psec-brigade quite unbelievable. I remember reading an article in one of the mainstream magazines here in the US which was supporting the candidacy of some person in a cabinet role. That author made it a point to mention that Hillary (Sec of State) and this person (who would be required to work closely with her) were practicing Christians who attended the same denomination of the Church! Just imagine some Indian being supported because as a defense minister because both he and the foreign minister are followers of a certain XYZ spiritual guru. The psecs will blow a few arteries.

There is also this article which highlights what is happening.
http://www.dnaindia.com/opinion/analysi ... ip_1551991

Somnath used half-truths in a futile attempt to demolish BRD when the same energy could have been spent in building upon BRD's 10 point agenda. There are enough people who can do that in the national media also if the bhadralok (the use is not intended to imply Bengalis only) give the others the space to voice their viewpoint.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 10 Jun 2011 11:31

Doctors say Baba Ramdev should be immediately shifted to ICU. Health condition worsens.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 10 Jun 2011 11:36

abhishek_sharma wrote:^ +1. Go easy on Bengalis. Other states have also produced many useless people.

Remember S. P. Mukherjee?

Yes it is like calling all Keralites communists. There are people of all shades in every state. Let us not promote stereotypes here.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 10 Jun 2011 11:39

The elite iskool defence of the indefensible grows more vacuuous and laughable by the minute!

Now we are being presented with a strawman right out of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"... if the mighty Simon Wiesenthal Center (with all its shadowy Joo-ish connections) took 50 years to track down Nazi funds (in operations involving a multitude of countries scattered over three continents)... how can the poor helpless govt of India ever hope to seize black money in illegal overseas accounts maintained by Indian citizens living in India!

When "nobody knows who has how much black money stowed away where"... such pathetic helplessness on the part of the same nation touted by the same elite iskooled as an "emerging supari power, one of the biggest consumer markets of the world" etc etc.

The bald truth behind this barefaced lie is that anyone who needs to know, and who has the power to do anything about it, can very easily find out who has black money stored in illegal accounts- how much there is- and where. Is the GOI's much vaunted "reform" of the IT and ED not directed at streamilining it's capacity to determine exactly this type of information?

Or are the IT Dept and ED (like every other instrument of governance) exclusively meant for harrassing the Maino's political opponents and persecuting "saffron terrorists?" Probably so, because the people with the most black money (to the GOI's knowledge) happen to be uncomfortably close to the extra-constitutional godmother of the GOI herself! How inconvenient it would be to have that info become public, to have (god forbid) the Indian public assemble in peaceful protest to demand that something be done about it!

And yet, the elite iskooled would have us believe that there is nothing that can be done about this. (Because of "Client Confidentiality Regulations from Swiss Banks" that can be hastily googled and copy-pasted here, to prove superior Phynansul-World knowlez.)

So, pay no attention to popular mass movements that pressurize the government to wake up when it pretends so faithfully to be sleeping! Discredit the messenger instead... it is only BRs fault that he is causing civil disruption while people only want to make money! Please, please forget about all this and go back to making money... so the Mainos can do the same thing in peace!

Yet more laughable is this LGT strawman... there were "only" 40 crores in there, so why complain? Obviously black money is no problem at all!

Never mind that LGT is only one meager shaving from the very tip of the iceberg which happened to become public knowledge. Just because this one case was inconveniently brought to light... why, then it must be the ONLY case! It involved "only 40 crores" so of course the total amount of Indian black money in overseas accounts must be a pittance... so much ado about nothing!

And meanwhile, of course, our GOI is completely helpless to unearth any other cases... so deaf and blind are they, that when forced by overwhelming public pressure to take cognizance of further evidence, they can only enclose documents in sealed envelopes and send them to the SC!

I fully expect certain types of individuals to denigrate Hinduism at every opportunity... particularly charlatans with Elite Iskool backgrounds who stand to profit from the 20-year Leveraged Buyout of Bharat that has been spuriously sold to people as part and parcel of our economic success story. A leveraged buyout in social and political terms is exactly what it is... the international Acquisition of India's tryst with destiny, paid for by borrowing against India's own values, her own sanskriti, treated as petty collateral. A select few who profit handsomely from this, have every stake in denigrating those values, that identity, as "antideluvian" or "obscurantist" or "saffron/retrograde"... because as long as we the people of India ignore the worth of what is being pawned, the RANDE continue to have their meal ticket.

But "denigrating Hinduism" is a side issue here, and a distraction. Let us not get sidetracked by this little diversion. The main issue remains that in every instance of ostensibly "critiquing" the Ramdev proposals, a certain elite iskooled phynansul anal-ist continues with utter shamelessness to lie through his teeth.

His haste to deny any motivation for lying, even as he does so, speaks volumes in itself.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 10 Jun 2011 11:41

What I have realised is that INC is quite happy as long as it has power. They are not bothered about the country or any kind of ideologies as long as they are in power. Commies and right wing are usually the ones who take a firm stand in most issues. Even if you don't agree with commies you cannot deny the fact that they have an opinion on issues facing the country. INC's only aim is to grab power some how and stay in power to make money. The real tragedy is that they are elected again and again and still people wonder why there is no change in this country. This is exactly what is happening in black money issue also. IMHO.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 10 Jun 2011 11:48

Dilbu wrote:What I have realised is that INC is quite happy as long as it has power.... INC's only aim is to grab power some how and stay in power to make money. The real tragedy is that they are elected again and again and still people wonder why there is no change in this country. This is exactly what is happening in black money issue also. IMHO.

For a significant section of the population corruption/black money is less of a problem compared to Hindutva/Saffron terror. They will vote for INC (no matter how corrupt/paki loving etc.) to keep out saffronists.

Having said that, it is even more important that RD succeeds. That will achieve what AH's platform cannot. It will be the first step towards rollback of the DIE hold on the nation. This is what that causes so much heartburn to the DIE, because deep down they know this is going to happen if RD succeeds.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 10 Jun 2011 11:51

20-year Leveraged Buyout of Bharat that has been spuriously sold to people as part and parcel of our economic success story. A leveraged buyout in social and political terms is exactly what it is...

Now we know who the commie on the board is......

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 10 Jun 2011 11:54

Rudradev wrote:The elite iskool defence of the indefensible grows more vacuuous and laughable by the minute!

Now we are being presented with a strawman right out of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"... if the mighty Simon Wiesenthal Center (with all its shadowy Joo-ish connections) took 50 years to track down Nazi funds (in operations involving a multitude of countries scattered over three continents)... how can the poor helpless govt of India ever hope to seize black money in illegal overseas accounts maintained by Indian citizens living in India!

When "nobody knows who has how much black money stowed away where"... such pathetic helplessness on the part of the same nation touted by the same elite iskooled as an "emerging supari power, one of the biggest consumer markets of the world" etc etc.

The bald truth behind this barefaced lie is that anyone who needs to know, and who has the power to do anything about it, can very easily find out who has black money stored in illegal accounts- how much there is- and where. Is the GOI's much vaunted "reform" of the IT and ED not directed at streamilining it's capacity to determine exactly this type of information?

Or are the IT Dept and ED (like every other instrument of governance) exclusively meant for harrassing the Maino's political opponents and persecuting "saffron terrorists?" Probably so, because the people with the most black money (to the GOI's knowledge) happen to be uncomfortably close to the extra-constitutional godmother of the GOI herself! How inconvenient it would be to have that info become public, to have (god forbid) the Indian public assemble in peaceful protest to demand that something be done about it!

And yet, the elite iskooled would have us believe that there is nothing that can be done about this. (Because of "Client Confidentiality Regulations from Swiss Banks" that can be hastily googled and copy-pasted here, to prove superior Phynansul-World knowlez.)

So, pay no attention to popular mass movements that pressurize the government to wake up when it pretends so faithfully to be sleeping! Discredit the messenger instead... it is only BRs fault that he is causing civil disruption while people only want to make money! Please, please forget about all this and go back to making money... so the Mainos can do the same thing in peace!

Yet more laughable is this LGT strawman... there were "only" 40 crores in there, so why complain? Obviously black money is no problem at all!

Never mind that LGT is only one meager shaving from the very tip of the iceberg which happened to become public knowledge. Just because this one case was inconveniently brought to light... why, then it must be the ONLY case! It involved "only 40 crores" so of course the total amount of Indian black money in overseas accounts must be a pittance... so much ado about nothing!

And meanwhile, of course, our GOI is completely helpless to unearth any other cases... so deaf and blind are they, that when forced by overwhelming public pressure to take cognizance of further evidence, they can only enclose documents in sealed envelopes and send them to the SC!

I fully expect certain types of individuals to denigrate Hinduism at every opportunity... particularly charlatans with Elite Iskool backgrounds who stand to profit from the 20-year Leveraged Buyout of Bharat that has been spuriously sold to people as part and parcel of our economic success story. A leveraged buyout in social and political terms is exactly what it is... the international Acquisition of India's tryst with destiny, paid for by borrowing against India's own values, her own sanskriti, treated as petty collateral. A select few who profit handsomely from this, have every stake in denigrating those values, that identity, as "antideluvian" or "obscurantist" or "saffron/retrograde"... because as long as we the people of India ignore the worth of what is being pawned, the RANDE continue to have their meal ticket.

But "denigrating Hinduism" is a side issue here, and a distraction. Let us not get sidetracked by this little diversion. The main issue remains that in every instance of ostensibly "critiquing" the Ramdev proposals, a certain elite iskooled phynansul anal-ist continues with utter shamelessness to lie through his teeth.

His haste to deny any motivation for lying, even as he does so, speaks volumes in itself.

+1 Very well put.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 10 Jun 2011 11:54

Interesting, the 'bengali' angle is showing up here. Is it necessary to bring that in?

Many intellectuals I know are also making it out as a battle of intellectual polties in India bengali brahmin Vs tamil brahmin. is it? and even if it is, can't we just argue on merits of the argument and not regional inttelectual leanings?

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 10 Jun 2011 11:56

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 10 Jun 2011 11:56

Raghavendra wrote:Kolkatta was the capital of EIC for a long time before being shifted to delhi, so more time and money was spent by EIC to turn locals servile and in no way threatening their colonization plan.

Even today BBC hires bengali communists to abuse Indians, check the blog of Soutik Biswas on BBC, all abuses and whines against India. There is a need to reform these brainwashed bengalis and make them come out of this self hating destructive mentality.

This is supposed to be "balanced, substantive, fact-based, full-truth-based" analysis - where did you pick this up? How many such categories have you identified? Bengalis is one, I have seen you categorise IB folks, GOI employees..Lage raho!

VikramS wrote:Somnath's writing is just an expansion of what Joji said in 140 letters. They hit out at the details of BRD's message while missing the the point.

I havent made any comments on BR's education, apearance et al - why bring in strawmen?

Anyway, importantly,

And there were some inaccuracies in Somnath's rant which I pointed out but did not get any acknowledgement.

??I saw one post from you where you misinterpreted me as saying that India has high tax rates, when what I said was that we had high tax rates...As for the logic (on black money generation) thereof - I referred the Laffer Curve axiom to you, assuming you would be able to fill in the blanks..Anything else?

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 10 Jun 2011 11:57

Dilbu wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:^ +1. Go easy on Bengalis. Other states have also produced many useless people.

Remember S. P. Mukherjee?
Yes it is like calling all Keralites communists. There are people of all shades in every state. Let us not promote stereotypes here.

Agreed partially onlee, even the most die hard malayalee communist is not anti india neither a traitor unlike in the case bengali communists who have been in regular contact with enemy nations and every time they open their mouth its abuses against India. To remove this abhorrent pathological hatred among bengali communists we need to discuss this matter instead of suppressing it by thought policing

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 10 Jun 2011 11:59

Rudradev Ji,
We Indics have enough on our plate already.Humble request only for no infighting amongst us.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 10 Jun 2011 12:01

somnath wrote:
Raghavendra wrote:Kolkatta was the capital of EIC for a long time before being shifted to delhi, so more time and money was spent by EIC to turn locals servile and in no way threatening their colonization plan.

Even today BBC hires bengali communists to abuse Indians, check the blog of Soutik Biswas on BBC, all abuses and whines against India. There is a need to reform these brainwashed bengalis and make them come out of this self hating destructive mentality.
This is supposed to be "balanced, substantive, fact-based, full-truth-based" analysis - where did you pick this up? How many such categories have you identified? Bengalis is one, I have seen you categorise IB folks, GOI employees..Lage raho!

Sach dukhne laaga haina birather

Usually you are full of bluster but when pointed out the truth you become subdued and hang your head in shame and try to deflect attention from the subject of mental slavery among bengali communists to the EIC

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 10 Jun 2011 12:03

sugriva wrote:
20-year Leveraged Buyout of Bharat that has been spuriously sold to people as part and parcel of our economic success story. A leveraged buyout in social and political terms is exactly what it is...
Now we know who the commie on the board is......

Not sure about your commie comment but who the obfuscating clown doing disservice to our nation is very clear

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 10 Jun 2011 12:07

Raghavendra wrote:
somnath wrote:This is supposed to be "balanced, substantive, fact-based, full-truth-based" analysis - where did you pick this up? How many such categories have you identified? Bengalis is one, I have seen you categorise IB folks, GOI employees..Lage raho!
Sach dukhne laaga haina birather Usually you are full of bluster but when pointed out the truth you become subdued and hang your head in shame and try to deflect attention from the subject of mental slavery among bengali communists to the EIC

Raghevendra,

I think I can explain a bit. Please see my post in Nukkad. Cross posting. Lets not derail this thread.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 10 Jun 2011 12:10

somnath:

Can you switch your underwear, hat, cigarette brand, beer brand, hard liquor brand, or the side of the bed you wake up on, whether you brush first or bath first, or whatever helps you put in the REVERSE GEAR, and write a refinement of the BRD's 10 points instead of reflexively dumping on that.

Ignoring the obvious ones like the exchange rate etc, please focus on the most basic ones related to corruption and use of foreign financial institutions to launder black money.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 10 Jun 2011 12:12

^^ Too much to ask from a INC shill.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 10 Jun 2011 12:15

Dilbu:

Yes the Congress is about power and power only. That is their only purpose.

It is a mafia. They need the Gandhi family at the top to keep all the different branches under control. If the Gandhi family goes, the mafia will die out in the in-fighting. Hence they hope and pray for Rahul baba to get some wisdom or Priyanka baby to end her political exile.

Unfortunately over the past two decades they have been very successful in splitting the country along the caste/religion fault-lines and have been building up their base. The visceral hatred of the RSS etc. they display is to build those fears and strengthen the fault lines. They have no national vision, and will not mind if the country splits up as long as they have a part to loot over.

Truly sick.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 10 Jun 2011 12:18

somnath wrote: ...

On the issue of what constitutes black money stashed away offshore, and claims thereof? Do you want to get data on how absurd the estimates of 1.5 trillion dollars of black money are (as a perspective, that is something like a full 20% of the total offshore pvt banking market - ergo, 20% of the entire offshore pvt bank industry is sustained by Indian slush money!)...Or do you want references to refute claims that US/Europe deficits are financed by Indian slush money? I can do that, but that would only turn the discussion way OT...

Or on the issue of nationalising" offshore bank accounts/asstes "easily"? Interestingly KLNMurthy brought out the analogy of the Jewish struggle to reclaim Nazi assets...Its interesting because while that is being cited as an example of how it "can be done", while it is precisely an example of how fuzzy, non black-and-white the issues are, and how damned difficult it is to execute...Here was a case of the best connected (politically and financially) community in the world, looking to reclaim assets of clearly identified individuals, victims of the best documented crime against humanity, kept in reasonably well identified banks..the amounts? Well, in the low tens of billions at best, a few hundred millions at worst...And backed by some of the most influential banking doyens of the world, many of whom are Jewish as well as a broad majority of the US political class...They spent upwards of 50 years, many millions of dollars, umpteen court cases, before a circumscribed reclamation was possible - dont think the total amount exceeded a few billion dollars...Here, we dont know who is "corrupt", we dont know which bank accounts/assets therefore are there, we dont know how much money is there, and above all, international and natioanl regulations make it darn difficult to peremptorily get such info en masse...Which is why I quoted that LGT Bank example (it was a lucky break for th German tax authorities, nothing "systemic" about it) - when it broke they said Indians have many billions, hundreds in fact, there...As it turns out now, its 40 crores...So the GOI is supposed to natioanlise purported "slush" assets that is doesnt know of, belonging to people who are unidentified, kept in places that are way beyond India's jurisdiction - and it is supposed to be "easy to execute without any foreign policy implicaitons"! What base dacument do you want to see in order to fathom the absurdity of such simplistic naivete? FATF discussion papers, or Client confidentialty regs in Switzerland? Again, I can sure dig up some of that, but will make the discussion OT...

I also touched on the Obama administration's plans to get Caymans, Switzerland etc. to reveal account info, to ferret out tax dodgers and get some more money into the treasury. If this would have been a 50 year project, i would expect by now some of his many opponents would not have missed the opportunity to ridicule him about it.

Financial forensics is a variable business, I expect it would depend on particular cases, and would require a full-time office and professional staff like I said. But what is interesting is that the responses to Ram Dev's ideas seem to start and stop with ridiculing him. A reasonable response would be to say, well, this is something we have been remiss on, thank you for building the political support for starting it, while it does take time, we will work diligently and transparently on it. Was this said in the private meeting he had with the ministers? Maybe. And maybe, even possibly, Ram Dev finds himself out of his depth politically, and his lack of understanding and experience, along with (possibly) a mental block (very common even among highly educated people) from a feeling of, "I have been very successful, therefore I am also very wise." There is nothing uncommon, let alone sinister about any of this. Politicians everywhere are more inept and silly than not, not to speak of an aspiring grassroots player like Ram Dev. Do you really think he is stupider than Sonia Gandhi or more sinister than Chidambaram? I will grant that he is poorer than Sonia and talks more than her, and his English is probably a lot worse than Chidambaram's. Are these the metrics to judge the man by?

It is possible to recognize and accept all this, without having to come down like a ton of bricks and trying to destroy a man who accomplished something remarkable--mobilize the public as never before on the issue of corruption. The physical assault on Ram Dev and his followers is only one aspect of the overall assault--thoroughly undeserved--on him and his movement.

I for one would look askance at individuals who would decry, pro forma, the physical assault, while, in effect, participating in the overall effort to destroy his movement. When you use language like "everyone on BRF (except me, somnath) obviously thinks Ram Dev is the messiah" or engage in endless nitpicking about Ram Dev's attire, grammar, mode of transportation and so on, I read that as aggressive rhetoric meant to distract and put down anyone who thinks your scathing verbal assault on him is uncalled for. Definitely not as an indication of interest in discussing the issues in good faith, by shedding some light.

What he is attempting shouldn't be the least bit controversial. It is fascinating, and quite revealing, that it is seen by some people as being controversial.

And yes, the Arvind K initiative on Jan Lokpal Bill too had its own share of issues..I myself was disappointed with the first draft...Especially on the attitude of "we know best" in the draft...But then, there is at least something substantive being tried to move forward there, transparently so (the draft was modified a few times after being published), not secret parleys with ministers in 5 star hotels..with assurances/statements given and retracted by the minute, in typical politician style...My questions to Arvind K would be on the minutiae of his proposals, because there is one, as it would be to any "civil lobbyist"...My questions to BR are on his motives and essential policy robustness (or the lack of it) of his message, as they would be to any politician...

Did you really mean to say that Kejriwal et al had no discussions at all with the government, at the cabinet level? Or that it is somehow sinister that Ram Dev's meeting was held in a 5-star hotel. I'll wager most people on this forum had meetings in 5-star hotels, are they all somehow sinister for that reason?

Kejriwal and his Jan Lok Pal people never really evolved to a sensible, practicable and effective solution to the ombudsman problem, that didn't vest God-like authority on an unelected monolithic board of "good people" in an ocean of 1.2 billion crooks. The problem is inherently hard, and can only have a distributed and redundant solution, and the drafts I read, screamed out to me, "pedestrian brains!" I don't care how much of a track record they had in public service, if their experience only convinces them that they and their circle are better than everyone else.

I think Ram Dev's motives are perfectly obvious--he wants to campaign against corruption and black money, and get some political power in the process if he can. There is nothing wrong or sinister about it, it is a perfectly legitimate motive.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 10 Jun 2011 12:44

VikramS wrote:write a refinement of the BRD's 10 points instead of reflexively dumping on that.

Not sure what you mean by me "having to reverse the gear"...Barring the point on "strong" Lokpal, there is really nothing in BR's list that is IMO remotely practical or implementable or in line with the times (depending on which points you take)...If you think they are the "reverse" then maybe you can elucidate or expand on what really can be done on those!

On what my views are, on tackling black money and corruption, I had posted that earlier - funny there was no comment on that..Here, again..

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=1160

My two pence on the issue of corruption and black money, and how they can be tackled...

One, the two are linked in some ways, but not the same...

Black money is simply income generated on which no tax has been paid..Primarily, it arises becase of 3 reasons

1. Tax levels are too high - people dont want to pay tax
2. Tax regime is too complicated - its too messy, hence people look to take the easy way out
3. Tax regime is full of loopholes, encouraging people to evade taxes

In India, we have had massive movement in #1 sicne reforms - our rates are in line with rest of Asia...But 2 and 3 are largely pending..the GST and DTC are the big bang reforms to adress both those issues..Unfortunately the GST has been hanging fire for 2-3 years now, thanks to the cussedness of a few state govts...

Once done, these should substantially make the tax regime simpler and better monitorable...The amount of black money generated through normal "business" should automatically reduce (we have seen that with reduction in tax rates as well)..Which is what Ila Patnaik was saying in that IE column..

Corruption on the other hand is a 100% criminal activity, but the really large part of it is due to one reason - very large residuary powers with the govt..

Reforms was supposed to take discretionary powers out of govt hands...Unfortunately, due tovaious reasons, there are still too much discretion left with the govt..Primarily because regulatory regimes have not kept pace with increased demand for various things, esp natural resources and changes in technology...

There is a large long pending agenda on this...Mining Rights laws, strengthening regulators in various natural resources sectors - this is a vast area, this is what is sometimes described as "2nd gen reforms"...

This givt has been singularly criminal in not acting on the above, despite its mandate...

The converstion IMO needs to be along these lines - make the govt accountable for specific, measurable actions...Motherhood intention statements or rhetoric is actually welcomed by a moribund govt - they can simply respond with more motherhood rhetoric, without having to really do anything...

Funnily, if there is someone who has dealt a death blow to (a part of) financial crime in India, it is MMS...

In 1992 (or was it 1993?), he legalised gold imports with a moderate and simple tax regime...In one stroke, one of the biggest criminal activities (remember bollywood villains in the '60/70s - their favourite trade was gold smuggling) was rendered completely defunct..

Ditto when MMS liberalised the external current account in phases (the work was completed by PC in his UF avatar) - it just rendered large parts of the hawala market defunct as well (it exists, but as a % of the total external account, far tinier than before)...

The multilateral efforts to ferret out "black money" that various countries are trying are going to be a really long term project, if ever - including Barack Obama's plans than KLNMurthy refers to...There are not going to be any medium term easy silver bullet answers..Maybe specific individual cases can be dealt with but if someone if trying to "nationalise" ALL offshore assets held by Indians or some such en masse - not going to happen anytime soon..All multilateral initiatives need to work on consensus, and it is, and will remain mighty difficult to get countries like Switzerland, Monaco, Jersey et al to do blanket stuff that will jeopardise their key business - offshore banking...Especially because a "strain" on such issues in one centre simply causes assets to move to another centre - we already saw massive shift in assets from certain European countries to certain Asian banking hubs the moment even some initial discussions on this happened in Europe..Net net, its going to take a long while..

Add to that the fact that not all offshore money is illegal, not everything is "black" (or tax unaccounted for) and not all of it is crime-related...The tricky activity is to establish these, within the constraints of the above...

Actually, the real meat on "black money" is in policy reforms domestically..The sad story is that on a number of them the work is done the matters have been thrashed out and the final draft is ready (GST, DTC specifically) - its the last mile that is required to be bridged...In some others, like tax reforms in Real Estate, a lot more work remains to be done...Above all, we have just the team to do it - MMS, Montek Ahluwalia (and now Kaushik Basu as CEA)...Does BR attempt to bring these in his "enlightenment" agenda? No, because talking to GST Bill is not nearly as sexy as talking of "nationalising" all offshore assets, isnt it?

Ditto for corruption...Here, the pending list of policy reforms is bigger and requires more political heft...Again, talking of just "banning" the existing Land Acquisition Act is so much more politically attractive than having to take policy stances on the proposed Land Acquisition Bill which is on the table in Parliament, isnt it?

Finally,

KLNMurthy wrote:I think Ram Dev's motives are perfectly obvious--he wants to campaign against corruption and black money, and get some political power in the process if he can. There is nothing wrong or sinister about it, it is a perfectly legitimate motive

Absolutely, I have said that 100 times already...Hence, I would treat him, his motives and his proposals in the same manner of questioning as I do other politicans and their proposals...

English, birth, caste et al have got nothing to do with the above - not sure why they need to be invoked...

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 10 Jun 2011 13:10

Swapan Dasgupta in Telegraph

REVOLT OF THE OUTLANDER - Anna Hazare and Ramdev appeal to two distinct social classes
Last Saturday evening, an English language television news channel sent one of its coquettish anchors, who otherwise specialized in going gush-gush over Bollywood stars, to report on Baba Ramdev’s ‘yoga camp’ in Delhi’s Ramlila Maidan. The lady had apparently never seen life on the other side of the tracks — or, at least, successfully pretended she hadn’t — and was wide-eyed in astonishment at both the numbers and the motivation of people who had travelled long distances to be with the man dubbed the “rock star of yoga”. She was also bowled over by the huge media presence. “There are channels here,” she said in breathless astonishment, “that I’ve never heard of.”

For that India whose TV viewing doesn’t go beyond the news and entertainment channels available on Tata Sky, the ignorance is understandable. There is an India People-Like-Us know and claim to understand, even if it is from a position of detachment. This includes the mysterious, mystical India personified by the flowing white robes and the ‘wellness’ philosophy of Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. The PLUs also habitually invoke the romanticism of rural life, even if they are understandably horrified by the Taliban-like decisions of khap panchayats.

That there are multiple Indias is a truism. It is also a truism that the only time the kaleidoscope of India finds some reflection in either the ‘national’ or the mainstream regional media is during an election. That’s the time the limousine liberals are sponsored by indulgent bankers to travel in comfort to the wilderness and even do an election-related chat show from a dusty truckers’ dhaba in West Midnapore or the roof of a garish hotel in Gaya.

Unfortunately, the season for political tourism is all too brief. It is always possible to gauge voting intentions during an emotionally charged campaign and even report the quantum of economic change brought about by India’s soaring gross domestic product in the small market towns and neighbouring villages. It is never a media priority to understand the corresponding shifts in aesthetic and social impulses.

The multiplying consequences of passionate Islamic discourses by tele-evangelists have, for example, led to a sharp rise in social conservatism among India’s Muslims. Some of this is even sartorially self-evident. Less understood, however, is the impact of the discourses broadcast by TV channels such as Aastha on the mofussil Hindu imagination. Have the unending emphasis on true dharma and the constant invocations of righteousness had an unforeseen political consequence?

For the past three years at least, I have been told of the subterranean buzz around Ramdev’s robust festivals of health and patriotism all over India. The extent to which the surge in religiosity has been brought about by rising TV viewership is difficult to quantify. All that can be said is that Ramdev’s decision to expand his mission statement to demanding political action against organized venality was not born out of thin air. It stemmed from his reading of the responses he got from the non-metropolitan audiences he spends most of the year addressing.

There is a sharp class divide between the ‘civil society’ movements launched by Anna Hazare and Ramdev. The old Gandhian and his core support team are public spirited individuals who in a more settled age would perhaps have been a part of the institutional apparatus of governance. Blessed with modern education and global exposure —note the surfeit of Magsaysay Award winners in Anna’s Star Chamber — they are people who talk the modern idiom of development and politics, a language the mainstream media finds comprehensible, comforting and respectable. The Anna movement has drawn sustenance from three quarters: from a core network of professional activists with a disdain for organized politics, from senior citizens, usually active in residents’ welfare associations, horrified by the moral decline of a world they can’t keep pace with, and a section of idealistic but impressionable youth which believes that social media networking is a force for the good.

The Anna movement was a made-in-media campaign. The crowds that flocked to his rally in Delhi’s Jantar Mantar two months ago did so without any incentive and organization. However, its spontaneity was also governed by a spectacular degree of TV hype that unnerved the government and forced it into setting up a joint committee to draft a new lok pal bill. No doubt the process was helped by the endearing personality of Anna — a man who exudes both simplicity and sincerity. However, it is worth considering whether or not the multiplier effects of the movement would have been that marked had the location of the fast not been the heart of Lutyen’s Delhi.

Compared to the 5,000 or so people who thronged Jantar Mantar at the peak of Anna’s fast, Ramdev began his show with a dedicated audience of something around 40,000 people. While most of Anna’s supporters were from the national capital region — plus shows of solidarity in the state capitals — the yoga guru mobilized people from all over the country, including a large contingent from West Bengal. Yet, the government risked a potential riot by forcibly evicting the crowd and shutting down the show in the early hours of last Sunday. What explains the visible double-standards?

The answer is obvious. The ‘civil society’ that Anna represented was the influential metropolitan middle class, many of whom were PLUs. Ramdev’s support base was drawn primarily from B, C and D category towns and lacked either clout or glamour. The English-language media was openly contemptuous of his mission, portraying it as a variant of another Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh-sponsored gau rakshan show. There was not a single Bollywood star to keep company of the relatively unknown religious figures that graced Ramdev’s dais. Even Anna was in two minds over being present on the stage. Each of the sadhus may have had a following of lakhs but this was not the power elite Delhi knew. To them, it was an assembly of obscurantists.

The scepticism of the PLUs contrasted starkly with the earnestness with which the Hindi channels dealt with the Ramdev phenomenon. To their viewership, Ramdev was a venerated figure and not someone whose raw understanding of economics was worthy of mockery.

The sharp class divide was unmistakable. The last occasion I witnessed this was the Ayodhya movement. Till L.K. Advani’s rath yatra in 1990, cosmopolitan India treated the fuss over Ram’s birthplace with sneering contempt. It was blind to the raw emotions unleashed in the hinterland, a phenomenon that was dismissed as ‘false consciousness’.

There is nothing as yet to indicate that Ramdev is likely to trigger a similar explosion of sentiment. Yet, the yogic entrepreneur has succeeded in extending the reach of the anti-corruption movement into the deep interior of the Hindi heartland. He has complemented a modernist unease with corrupt governance with populist anger against a venal, elitist order — note how his demand to secure the return of black money stashed in foreign shores was cleverly twinned with the demand to replace English with the vernacular. Ramdev has triggered the revolt of the outlander.

The Hindu faith has traditionally been caste-based and localized. Yet, there has been a congregational undercurrent that has subsumed these divisions. Over the past two decades and thanks in no small measure to growing TV viewership, a new congregational faith has injected a new energy into the Hindu universe. Particularly noteworthy is the growing marginalization of the Brahminical order. Ramdev, a Yadav by caste, personifies this phenomenon. The Congress may have miscalculated by declaring total war on him.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 10 Jun 2011 13:19

Ashok Mitra was the doyen of left socialist economics, doctorate to boot. China, Nazi Germany, USSR boasted some really great minds in economics. But they went all bust (we expect the same of China too really soon). All failed empires had some of the best educated people working for them.

Now what do you think of people who inspite of all their "expertise" worked for such "empires"? Why do you think they all "failed"? No possible role of ideological and political dogmatic "corruption" that twists these "all understanding" "expert" brains around in knots in justifying the unjustifiable? Or an even greater underlying malignancy that thrives and preys on the "commons"?

B ji, it is obvious that weeding out corruption at least a large measure is Economic. If the politicians want a socialist state set up, you won't have economists who believe in free market principles at the helm. All economists are not the same hue. The reason also is as you state: "No possible role of ideological and political dogmatic "corruption" that twists these "all understanding" "expert" brains around in knots in justifying the unjustifiable? ", in Pakistan or Gujarat corruption is 'smuggling' a bottle of beer and drinking it in your own house.

In the 70's for example there was a huge black market in gold and electronic smuggling. There was a black market in jumping 5 year waiting periods for buying a Vespa. The 'corrupt' were people who used cash to jump 'que', the corrupt were people who took out more than 5 Pounds in Forex of the country, the corrupt were people who wanted to evade a 95% wealth tax.

Transparency and openness are the biggest eliminators of corruption in society. I really don't see what is contradictory in what i wrote there.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 10 Jun 2011 13:25

After reading many insipid articles by Swapan Dasgupta in the recent weeks, I am happy that he has turned back to the Swapan Dasgupta we all know and love.

His thoughts hit the nail hard on the head. It IS a class war that we are seeing here. This is India's Jasmine revolution, no less. And as in Yemen, Syria, Egypt and Libya - Indian government is also responding with overwhelming violence, and losing many friends in the process.

jimmyray · Post by **jimmyray** » 10 Jun 2011 13:52

Atri wrote:
negi wrote:You guys are reading too much into the Bong connection as far as the leftist slant is concerned; to be honest there are equally high number of Bongs on the right side (Chandan Mitra, Swapan DasGupta, Kanchan Gupta to name a few) and that's true even for the forum.
+100

almost all Bongs that I have met are rarely centrists. they have a very strong opinions which they believe in with almost sentimental involvement. they are either on this pole or that pole. A far rightist bong will put a bajrangi, a sikh and a staunch maratha to shame.. so, i would be careful before judging. in fact, i won't judge at all....

This is a little OT but to put this on record - I was born in a 'Bong' or 'Bhadralok' family and I do understand why some people who have been only exposed to typical ‘commie Bongs’ may have an anti-Bong feelings. But believe me there are also some ‘Dharmic Bhadraloks’

. I am not a 'Chela' of RD but I am an unapologetic supporter of Ramdev’s Yoga movement and anti-corruption movement.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 10 Jun 2011 14:17

Recent lecture by Swamy in Chandigarh:

jimmyray · Post by **jimmyray** » 10 Jun 2011 14:20

harbans wrote:
Ashok Mitra was the doyen of left socialist economics, doctorate to boot. China, Nazi Germany, USSR boasted some really great minds in economics. But they went all bust (we expect the same of China too really soon). All failed empires had some of the best educated people working for them.

Now what do you think of people who inspite of all their "expertise" worked for such "empires"? Why do you think they all "failed"? No possible role of ideological and political dogmatic "corruption" that twists these "all understanding" "expert" brains around in knots in justifying the unjustifiable? Or an even greater underlying malignancy that thrives and preys on the "commons"?
B ji, it is obvious that weeding out corruption at least a large measure is Economic. If the politicians want a socialist state set up, you won't have economists who believe in free market principles at the helm. All economists are not the same hue. The reason also is as you state: "No possible role of ideological and political dogmatic "corruption" that twists these "all understanding" "expert" brains around in knots in justifying the unjustifiable? ", in Pakistan or Gujarat corruption is 'smuggling' a bottle of beer and drinking it in your own house.

In the 70's for example there was a huge black market in gold and electronic smuggling. There was a black market in jumping 5 year waiting periods for buying a Vespa. The 'corrupt' were people who used cash to jump 'que', the corrupt were people who took out more than 5 Pounds in Forex of the country, the corrupt were people who wanted to evade a 95% wealth tax.

Transparency and openness are the biggest eliminators of corruption in society. I really don't see what is contradictory in what i wrote there.

I have seen corruption in all kind of countries with different economic models. The least corrupt countries are the ones where the society believes that corruption is wrong (e.g. Some Nordic counties). Most people in these counties are proud that they have so little corruption. It is inculcated in them from childhood that they should not do anything that would harm their country. Adults lead by example and children follow. I am not saying that these countries are 100% corruption free but the level is definitely very low.
So IMHO (too simplistic perhaps) along with the legislations, improved morality of our society starting from inculcating Dharmic values in our children will go a long way in fight against corruption.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Jun 2011 14:32

harbans ji,
the contradiction should have been obvious. In one post you ask us to put our faith in whatever drops from someone because of his supposed expertise in "economics" and "law", and reverentially accept line by line of whatever pontifications comes from him - but at the same time you also point out that similar "brilliant" experts in "economics" etc., helped out in the foundations of empires like the Nazi or Communists that ultimately crashed.

Do you or do you not then acknowledge the fact the no amount of "expertise" in economics or "law" guarantees protection from an essentially twisted evil mind operating beneath the cover of expertise - that can help in the foundation of "evil" empires like the Nazis or communists? You see - both the Nazis and Communists started out pretending to be progressive, liberal, secular, modernizing movements that hold out untold future economic prosperity for the "people"! Do you get the similarity? So many Brit Marxists as well as non-Marxist economists and legal luminaries justified and covered up for a dynastic, colonial regime [any regime is colonial if it uses the resources of "other" regions exploitatively in favour of what they consider their "home" region as well as their own particular social subgroup] that sucked the blood dry of the larger population of India. Do you need more similarities?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 10 Jun 2011 14:35

jimmyray wrote:he least corrupt countries are the ones where the society believes that corruption is wrong (e.g. Some Nordic counties). Most people in these counties are proud that they have so little corruption. It is inculcated in them from childhood that they should not do anything that would harm their country

IMO thats a bit of a utopian construct..Not disregarding the social influences, essentially, it is much easier to enforce rules and governance in small, homogeneeous countries...Nordic countries are exemplars in Europe, on the other hand Italy has issues with political corruption...In Asia, Singapore is an exemplar on the issue, but China has massive issues...

In large, heterogeneous complicated countries, rules-based regulatory regimes, stable, low-tax regimes and high economic "freedom" typically take incentives to "cheat" out, and prevents misuse of state authority...

Which is precisely what is required in India as well...

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 10 Jun 2011 14:53

So IMHO (too simplistic perhaps) along with the legislations, improved morality of our society starting from inculcating Dharmic values in our children will go a long way in fight against corruption.

Indeed, 'morality' is only one part of the issue. A cop making 4000 Rs a month will find it extremely difficult making ends meet. When he pulls up a traffic violater and is thrust 100 bucks, the temptation is too much to resist for him. A cop making 40000 Rs a month will not be tempted and haul in the offender. In the former society learns that it's ok to violate traffic rules as one can get away paying a 100 bucks if caught. In the latter, the offender is aware that he will be caught. So things improve. The same applies to the low level babu's in Govt offices that make live difficult and unpleasant for millions of us. When the economy improves a lot of low level corruption of this type will be eliminated.

High level corruption is hard to curb. It exists in every society and is hard to quantify. If we put a 90% wealth tax on those earning more than 10 lakhs per annum say, whatever our mores, dharmic or anything, 90% people will evade in some form. Thus laws and economics are also essential in keeping people on the 'right' side of morality. This is the case in most 'developed' economies. In Japan i left my brand new handycam in a public post office and found it right there in safe custody 4 hours later. In India it's unlikely i would find that, though there are several examples of down right honesty i witness in India too. I've had my purse, credit card returned untouched here in India too.

Then there is 'corrupt' practises like lobbying for influence. In one country that can be considered corruption in another perfectly legal like the US. Same applies to Prohibition. It encourages Police-Politician-Bootlegger mafia lobbies to make plenty money. End that and then they branch off into prostitution etc. Then there is the issue of foreign banks. This is really a nebulous area and we have no idea on how much money is there. This can be highly exaggerated to maybe underrated. I simply don't have an idea on those sort of funds and i have no idea how people throw in figures of a few trillion Dollars or on what basis they arrive at it, or on whose words.

As i mentioned there are 3 aspects to the discussion ongoing about BR.

1. Mass awareness against corruption: Results in Govt taking steps to curb it, low level officials on the back-foot. Out of 5 marks give BR 5 on that.

2. Specifics on dealing with the Issue as listed by BR: Max 2/5. Good intentions, but can be very controversial and comes into the political, economic and legal domain.

3. The issue how the present GOI broke up the rally and the high handedness and extreme stupidity and insensitivity of statements, tweets emerging from the Psec media and GOI officials like Digvijay, Tiwari et al. And this as i mentioned earlier is the one that is gaining focus and momentum here and in main stream media. The way DP and GOI dealt with the episode has hurt/ hit a raw nerve. The page 3 cocktail feudalist macaulized elite cannot stand BR. That he should not leave the domain of a Yoga Guru and be just what he is good at.

Somehow IMHO the discussion will remain centered on point 3 and the effect/ improvements temporal or otherwise from point 1. It's point 2 thats the challenging part. And that's what Somnath Ji was trying to focus on. What do we actually do to really eliminate or reduce corruption in society. Rhetoric, emoptions, good intentions don't eliminate corruption. Hard nosed focus will.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Jun 2011 14:56

There is a hilarious line of argument being peddled for many pages now, and something typically deceptive.

"Anyone who demands anything from the elected/legitimate government on any broad issue, cannot do so on the basis of principles, but can only do so if he/she submits a complete bill/law filled out in all anticipatory details of what a court can act on"

That reminds me of Rahul Mehta, who is as far as I know - with BR's movement. The debates that many posters had with him perhaps can still be retrieved from archives. Apparently if the above principle is not followed, then no one has the right to open his/her mouth to protest anything, to demand anything from those handed power by the "electoral" process.

Do the "elected" political parties themselves follow this rule? I am searching for such detailed "bills" in manifestos of political parties which they place to the public before the elections on agenda to be pursued if the party gets elected to power or from within the legislature. I have collections of even "inner" manifestos of certain parties - which are meant for internal discussions and not really printed out for external circulation. None of them have it and some items in my collection go back to the 60's - even before I was born.

So even the electoral process does not expect the people to demand things from the state in the form of clear cut court-actionable bills with all necessary details thrashed out. But at the same time the process recognizes that people's demands have to be met at the broader principles level and engaged there. Just because people in general do not submit bills to their elected representatives does not automatically annul the right of the people to demand things based on the "people's" perception of "peoples'" needs.

Now is BR's movement a political party? In some perceptions it is - simply because it is demanding things that the viewers see should be the sole prerogative of "listed" political parties. But in both a technical, legal and constitutional sense, BR and his movement does not represent a conventional political party with a legislative presence. Therefore it is not required of him and his movement to submit detailed "bills" - something that even the listed parties do not do outside the parliament in a broad public domain sense. How many of the bills in details submitted to the legislature are brought out in media propaganda by the respective political parties? oh - they are sometimes put out in some websites - of course, and that is a surely honest means of dissemination in India to all corners of society! It is of course not the duty of the parties then to familiarize the people with the contents of proposed bills, but the onus is on the people - to come and search out what the dear "electoral" political parties are doing inside the parliament with their formal rubber stamp of an election.

The representatives elected and paid for by the people, to the legislature, are the ones saddled with the duty and responsibility to fill out the details of laws, bills. It is also their duty to listen to the people's demands from whom they cannot demand detailed "laws/bills" - a principle which they seem to grasp immediately when fatwaists demand something from them, but which they utterly fail to comprehend - from their superb standpoint of sole "expertise" in "economics" and "law", if the demand does not come from the proper religious community or background.