The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
krisna
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5881
Joined: 22 Dec 2008 06:36

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by krisna »

Sushupti wrote:
Liability called Manmohan Singh
June 12, 2011 1:01:23 AM

Hari Shankar Vyas

Manmohan Singh has become a liability for the Congress. His political assets are zero. He was considered honest, humble and kind are no longer enough.

Sonia might not be thinking on these lines but many Congress leaders are distressed. The question haunting them is: How to tackle this liability for three more years?

Sonia Gandhi and Rahul have the difficult task ahead of garnering more votes. Rahul is eyeing a miracle in UP and the Congress has the target of grabbing the seven States where elections are scheduled for next year.

But there are many pitfalls with Manmohan Singh at the helm. Does Sonia want that the party sink with Manmohan? Can she risk a Government machinery at standstill? Would she welcome the fact that when there is a fight with civil society on the streets, Parliament becomes a wrestling ground?

With the public slowly and steadily turning away from the Congress party, Manmohan at helm is not helping matters. He is perceived to have brought the party at a juncture where it has power but scant voters.
Article is what many here know.
But the author is trying for a hackneyed job of protecting SG/RG duo.
they have their henchmen spreading and dousing fires everywhere.(good cop-bad cop routine)
Now conveniently blame MMS. He never had any political assets to begin with. He was a convenient stooge of SG to keep the seat warm for her beta.
SG will likely never replace MMS as other heavyweights have political ambitions, cleverer than RG, have mass support by virtue of having fought and won elections.
MMS may go down as an ineffective leader though personally a good man. He already has made a mark for becoming the first non Nehru family PM to win re elections(unfortunately he never won which is a tragedy).
As one of brfite said earlier-
MMS has accountability but no power, SG has power but no accountability.
Vashishtha
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 23:06
Location: look behind you

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Vashishtha »

But the author is trying for a hackneyed job of protecting SG/RG duo.
I dont think so, been reading the pioneer since some time. And I can tell you that they are not really Congress friendly.....Probably the writer dint give it much weight over other things....
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60278
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by ramana »

Pioneer has set of INC writers:HS Vyas, CP Bhambri etc.
krisna
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5881
Joined: 22 Dec 2008 06:36

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by krisna »

Vashishtha wrote:
But the author is trying for a hackneyed job of protecting SG/RG duo.
I dont think so, been reading the pioneer since some time. And I can tell you that they are not really Congress friendly.....Probably the writer dint give it much weight over other things....
Pioneer is one newspaper which tries to maintain its neutral stance by giving weightage to people across the spectrum-espousing right centre and left.
Definitely better than the other newspapers.
Sidhant
BRFite
Posts: 112
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 11:57

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Sidhant »

somnath wrote: Last, the PM is about a million times more knowledgeable than me on econ, hence I find it difficult to believe he gave an undertaking like that - can you give a reference?
Hi Somnath Ji,

Here is the link from a news report of 2009
Below is the text from the news report.
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told the Rajya Sabha on Thursday that "action has already started" for getting back black money belonging to Indians from Swiss banks.
His remark came after Prakash Javadekar (BJP) sought to know from the Prime Minister what the UPA government was doing to bring back the money within 100 days.


As Javadekar's supplementary was not related to the main question on G-8 meeting, Chairman Hamid Ansari asked him to stick to the subject.

But, the Prime Minister stood up and said, "yesterday when Finance Minister was replying to the Finance Bill in this House, he specifically dealt with this aspect and had said that action has already started on it."
Instead of BRD bashing, why there is no single voice on why the promise has not been fulfilled. What is it that is forcing governments hands. When our economist Prime Minster says that this can be brought back in 100 days then I think it can definitely be brought back in atleast 300 days. I feel that we have been so involved in dissecting BRD's motives that we are not looking at the real issues. I feel it will be much more constructive if we can analyze on how to force GOI to fulfill its promise and surely BRD is doing his part in this, question is what are we doing. Dissing BRD and finding faults in his approach and hair splitting his sinister motives is definitely not helping.
joshvajohn
BRFite
Posts: 1516
Joined: 09 Nov 2006 03:27

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by joshvajohn »

Corruption eats into PDS grain in Maoist corridor
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 818662.cms

the courage with which the government officials carry out the corruption and treating people as slaves is really alarming in India. The government officials should be exposed by local newspapers or local communities should be educated to write these corrupt fellows names in the public so that these officials will not only be exposed but also dismissed. We need strong regulations to fine these officials heavily or suspend them for five years so that their punishment will start making some impact on corruption.
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4849
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by KLNMurthy »

somnath wrote:Just read that the amount of "black money" claimed by BR is 400 lac crore (from the hindi website of Bharat Swabhimaan Trust)...That is around 10 trillion dollars - 10 trillion, bigger than most estimates of the size of the global offshore private banking industry, thereby implying that Indian slush money stashed offshore accounts forms every cent of the offshore pvt banking market, and then some more (maybe under various carpets in Zurich and Monaco!)...
Let's come down to reality--any number from zero to infinity can be guessed for amt. of black money; there is no need to get hung up on exact amount projected by anyone, all numbers are meaningless until steps are taken to gain access to the bank accounts and audit them. Substantive and honest efforts and debate would focus on ways of making this happen. Keep in mind that US has set the ball rolling on its own behalf; I expect that it would be an ongoing institutional and legal process and that there is an expectation of getting tangible results in a realistic (not 50 years) timeframe. Those are the things to focus on, instead of endless nitpicking; there are enough flaws, grammar and composition imperfections, petty misstatements and overstatements in all proposals and drafts. At this stage of the game, getting hung up on those is only a distraction.
joshvajohn
BRFite
Posts: 1516
Joined: 09 Nov 2006 03:27

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by joshvajohn »

A Swiss window to black money the UPA won't look into

Ashok Dasgupta
New Delhi: The UPA government may have gone into overdrive on the black money issue but it has so far failed to use a Swiss tax provision that will allow India to not just estimate how much money its citizens have illegally stashed away in bank accounts in Switzerland but to also earn revenue from them.
http://www.hindu.com/2011/06/04/stories ... 131400.htm

Delhi’s double siege
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/editoria ... -siege-804
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60278
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by ramana »

Economic Times

Why UPA govt is in trouble?

Looks like blame has started to pin it on MMS!!!
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Airavat »

Appoint a custodian for black money accounts: Fali S Nariman

I have suggested when I was in the Rajya Sabha — some others have also said similar things: Why doesn’t the government try to introduce legislation to take over the accounts of all Indian nationals in Swiss banks? A custodian can be appointed for such accounts. In effect, nationalise those funds with the specific provision that the custodian will release the money of people who can prove that it was officially remitted from India. The title will then re-vest in them. All this has nothing to do with tax treaties. This is not a tax matter.

The breaking point on the Lokpal discussion was reached with the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) saying in the 2G spectrum case that the money lost to the exchequer could be 1 lakh crore. That caught the imagination of the public and the Lokpal debate revived. Even the government says it is 30,000 crore. That is hardly a small amount. As for myself, I am dead against placing the Prime Minister and the higher judiciary under the Lokpal. I am not bothered about MPs and ministers. If the Prime Minister is brought under the Lokpal’s scrutiny, the Lokpal will be all-powerful. He will be more powerful than the Prime Minister. In the parliamentary system, the Prime Minister can go out only if Parliament so resolves.

As for higher judiciary, judges have been eased out. A.M. Ahmadi, former Chief Justice of India, got rid of A.M. Bhattacharjee, former Chief Justice of the Bombay high court. These things also depend on the personality of the Chief Justice or the ombudsman. Everything in life can’t be legislated. Otherwise, you can’t run a country.
Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9374
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Hari Seldon »

Tintin in the land of Black money

Hilarious spoof in DNA. Must read for all Tintin fans. Boy, it took me a coupla decades back in time to again read names like 'Rastapopulus' and 'Castafiore'...ROFL.

Couldn't resist....Here's an excerpt:
Tintin: “If you don’t know how much black money there is and where it is hidden, then how in the world do you expect anyone to bring it back? Maybe you should ask the prime minister to do something.”

“Cuthbert Calculus?” Haddock said before dropping his voice to a whisper. “I’m not sure about him. He’s highly intelligent, but appears to be deaf. His ministers are looting the government, there is crisis after crisis, but he reacts as if he didn’t hear anything.”

“Maybe he has capable deputies.”

“Capable isn’t quite the word. He’s put two men on the job, the finance minister and the home minister.”

“You don’t mean…”

“Yes, Thomson and Thompson. Even as we speak they must be hot on the heels of some money-launderer or terrorist or real-estate developer or pick-pocket or child molester or even marketing executive.”
:mrgreen:
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by negi »

:rotfl: Want an exact figure as to how much black money mofos have stashed away ? Let me put it this way , tell me the exact population of India; I am counting ... :roll:
devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by devesh »

amidst all the discussion, what will happen with Baba Ramdev? what is his endgame? he is refusing to end the fast. INC might do a force feeding soon, if he continues with the fast. or perhaps even the Uttarakhand state govt.
Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4153
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Atri »

devesh wrote:amidst all the discussion, what will happen with Baba Ramdev? what is his endgame? he is refusing to end the fast. INC might do a force feeding soon, if he continues with the fast. or perhaps even the Uttarakhand state govt.
One of the endgames is this
devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by devesh »

^^^
I am aware of that endgame. but isn't it a waste of potential for someone like Baba Ramdev. if the idea is to do a Jatin Das, then Ramdev is not the person for it. he can do much more. he has a lot of productive years left to contribute.

it's like Arjuna putting his life at stake for Jayadratha. Krishna saved Arjuna and made sure his potential was not wasted. Baba is increasingly acting like Arjuna. who is the Krishna?
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16271
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by SwamyG »

ramana wrote:Economic Times

Why UPA govt is in trouble?

Looks like blame has started to pin it on MMS!!!
I told you, powers have been working to do a regime change. Sonia's simple goal is to find ways to make Rahul the PM. MMS downfall is just collateral damage. Subramanya Swamy is correct, MMS alone cannot go, the entire lot has to go. Rahul does not seem to inspire public, enough, to get the required votes. Hence Sonia is caught in a dilemma. UNC is tainted goods,people will no longer vote ONLY for it. MMS will be asked to take one on the shin for the party; and he will be let go. Like Satyam Raju, he is now riding the tiger and he knows it. He is just trying to get of the tiger without being eaten. He has to ride the tiger until it is dead - ie. UPA is thrown out of power { I do not wish death of any human beings}- no choice for him.
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16271
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by SwamyG »

Fvck, I got it right....look at what Swapan Dasgupta has written in pioneer. Endgame begins for Manmohan?

I have to pat myself on the back....I got lots of things correct. I also pat others who got it correct :-) Read the entire thingie, you will pat all of us on the back :-)
Sushupti
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5198
Joined: 22 Dec 2010 21:24

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Sushupti »

This explains why this Khan was speaking against Baba Ramdev
****************************************************************
Now Congress slips on IPL muck, SRK link with Rajiv Shukla emerges

The first Congress link in the IPL scandal seems set to emerge. Film star Shah Rukh Khan, who is already under scrutiny by the taxman, seems to have been a significant investor in BAG Glamour, a company owned by Rajiv Shukla, a Congress Rajya Sabha member and member of the Indian Premier League's governing council.

Documents available with DNA show that Shah Rukh Khan and wife Gauri, owners of the Kolkata Knight Riders, invested around Rs10 crore in the media company owned by Shukla and his wife in the financial year 2007-08, when the bidding for the IPL franchises took place.

The evidence is that the Khans invested Rs10 crore and picked up 10% equity in BAG Glamour, a subsidiary of BAG Films & Media Limited.

Since BAG Glamour is a cent per cent subsidiary of BAG Films, nothing much is known about the other investors.

On the surface, there is nothing wrong in Khan and his wife investing in the company owned by the Shuklas.

What is strange is the timing: the Khans invested Rs10 crore in the company owned by Shukla’s wife Anuradha Prasad in January-February 2008, precisely when the bidding process for IPL-I was ending.

The Khans got the Kolkata Knight Riders franchise in January 2008 through their company Red Chillies Entertainment Private Limited, which is owned by Gauri Khan.

Apart from the timing, another strange aspect that drew the interest of the investigators was the fact that the Khans chose to invest in a company that was registering heavy losses.

BAG Films incurred a loss of over Rs90 crore during financial year 2007-08. Documents show that the cumulative losses of BAG Films and its subsidiary had touched Rs400 crores until March 2009.

Further, Rajiv Shukla is not some minor official of the Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) but the chairman of its finance committee and member of the IPL governing council. It is the governing council that awarded the IPL franchises to the various owners, including Khan.

A source in the BCCI said Shukla never disclosed his “conflict of interest”.

When IPL-I was launched in 2008, none smelt a rat in the friendship between Shukla and Khan. It was Shukla who introduced the superstar to the Gandhis. Riding on his success and flush with funds, Khan was looking for investment opportunities and the IPL came in handy.

It looks like the Congress and the United Progressive Alliance government it heads are going to face a lot of heat on Monday as Shukla seems to be the first Congress leader to emerge as a direct beneficiary of the IPL.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_no ... es_1374686
Narad
BRFite
Posts: 886
Joined: 04 Jan 2010 15:15

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Narad »

Baba Ramdev ends nine-day-old fast: Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
Dhiman
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 13:56

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Dhiman »

Narad wrote:Baba Ramdev ends nine-day-old fast: Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
Job well executed. Definitely kept the Korrupt Kangress Klan (KKK) on hooks while it lasted and exposed their evil face though his peaceful protest that scared the shit out of KKK.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

Ramdev ends his fast after eight days
CNN-IBN
Updated Jun 12, 2011 at 11:39am IST


New Delhi: Yoga guru Baba Ramdev on Sunday broke his fast after spiritual leader Sri Sri Ravishankar met him in the hospital.

Baba Ramdev broke his fast by consuming juice given to him by Sri Sri Ravishankar.

The doctors in a medical bulletin said that Ramdev will be in hospital for two more days and will be discharged after that.

Janata Party President Subramanian Swamy who was present in the hospital when Ramdev broke his fast, lashed out at Sonia Gandhi saying, "Sonia Gandhi and her son are sitting in Switzerland at this time."

He also said that the fight against corruption will not end.

Ramdev's close aide Balkrishna said, "Baba Ramdev has ended his fast but the satyaghraha against corruption and black money is on."

Former Haryana Chief Minister Om Parkash Chautala and Punjab Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal also paid him a visit in the hospital on Sunday.

Parkash Singh Badal extended his support to Ramdev and said he is with the yoga guru in his fight.

Doctors attending to him on Sunday said that his condition was stable and his vital signs are all normal. They advised Ramdev to end his fast.

Law Minister Veerappa Moily had also ruled out any direct talks with Baba Ramdev.

"Sri Sri Ravishankar said he was going to Haridwar anyway and would meet Ramdev. He asked me and I said go ahead. He is very concerned about welfare of country and the running of the government. So he has gone to meet Ramdev," said Moily.

Moily has said that Sri Sri Ravishankar had volunteered to convince Ramdev to stop the hunger strike.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/ramdev-ends- ... 646-3.html
madhu
BRFite
Posts: 782
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 17:00
Location: India

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by madhu »

Narad wrote:Baba Ramdev ends nine-day-old fast: Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
successfully eliminated one. Now only one (Anna) left. Taking on dumbo voters is not a problem.
archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6823
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by archan »

Saw a headline that Shri Laloo ji has said that Ramdev is neither a guru nor a baba. Can someone tell me how educated manneeya Lalu ji is? :rotfl:
"Ae budbak, jara in sahiban ko samjhao ke assli baba kaisan hot hai. Arre oo gaiyyan ka chaara chhod abhi, jara baba ka dephinision to bata"
Manishw
BRFite
Posts: 756
Joined: 21 Jul 2010 02:46

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Manishw »

Good to see him end this fast.B Ji is right he should have lived to fight another day.
Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4153
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Atri »

devesh wrote:^^^
I am aware of that endgame. but isn't it a waste of potential for someone like Baba Ramdev. if the idea is to do a Jatin Das, then Ramdev is not the person for it. he can do much more. he has a lot of productive years left to contribute.

it's like Arjuna putting his life at stake for Jayadratha. Krishna saved Arjuna and made sure his potential was not wasted. Baba is increasingly acting like Arjuna. who is the Krishna?
good that it didn't lead to that one..
Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9374
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Hari Seldon »

Oh, I agree entirely. BRD is better off living to fight another day.

Wars as won, as Patton is alleged to have said, not by dying for the country but by making the enemy die for his.
CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6865
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by CRamS »

my man Sri Sri Ravishankar!!!
joshvajohn
BRFite
Posts: 1516
Joined: 09 Nov 2006 03:27

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by joshvajohn »

Black money: 18 Indians on Liechtenstein List
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... st/801250/

There must be strong connection between Indian banks or the private banks operating in India and alos the laundering of the black money overseas. Somehow this money is being brought in and out of India and given to terrorists and for election purposes by all parties in India. There should be a strong investigation into the link between Indian banks and overseas banks in exchanging large amount of money for Individuals.

How to slay the demon of graft
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/360-degr ... -graft-828
This is a good article!
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Arjun »

Ajatshatru wrote:The next time BRD should make an effort that his movement is seen as much more broad based (it is the perception that also counts – sometimes even, sadly, perhaps more than reality) and furthermore, no steps which would give the INC a handle to discredit the movement....
Why should this be only one-way? Anna Hazare needs to stop associating with anti-Hindu elements like Swami Agnivesh.
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by somnath »

The critique of the lokpal concept seems to be two-fold..
One, its not a silver bullet - which it isnt, nothing is...Two, and more substantively, on the structural construct...
Dhiman wrote:Ahem, this suggestion sucks! You might as well create a cabal that will control LokPal selection And what about the funding aspects of LokPal, when are they funded, when is there funding increased/decreased/kept stable and by who on what quantifiable parameter. LOL, otherwise if a corrupt simple only state government clerk who goes to office at 11pm and comes back by 4pm like myself becomes in charge of LokPal funding, then rest assured I will reduce it to zero so that lokpal becomes in name only yet completely ineffective.
Two points here..On the issue of a full bench evaluating prima facie case on a complaint against the PM, it is actually an extension of the existing judicial process..Even today, for any criminal case, the court has to take cognizance of the offence, that there is a prima facie case, before the prosecution can go forward and frame charges...This is pre-empting the trial process, and getting it done at a slightly advanced level...It is required to protect the PM from frivolous complaints, especially politically motivated ones...

On the issue of funding, the point is a bit disengenuous...Funding for all instittuions finally come from two sources - Consolidated Fund of India and state govts..That includes the legislature, the judiciary, EC, CAG - all instittuions "indpeendent" of the executive...NOt sure why Lokpal's funding needs to be a "concern"...
devesh wrote:Independent" bodies might turn out to be rabid breeding grounds for anti-Indian factions like ARoy and Teesta should be studied more deeply. "independent" sounds good. but there has to be a check on their powers. and who decides what kind of people will populate this panel??? i'm sure Maino and rest can't wait to get assorted Hindu haters, and anti-Indian traitors into the panel. NAC is a prime example of this. what's to say that Lokpal won't become the same
I am afraid this line of critique is perhaps the flimsiest of all...

One, the critique that the Lopal isnt "directl elected"...Well, how many people by that logic will need to be "directly elected"? RBI guv, Election Commisioners,, CEC, CVC, Supreme Court judges - just a few in random first thoughts...About "mainowadis" (amazing how a political leader has been elevated to the level of an ideologue!) "taking over" lokpal, lets see how other such cosntitutional offices are appointed..

CVC: a selection panel comprising PM, HM and Leader of opposition
RBI guv: appointed by the Finance Minister (in fact he technically reports to the FM)
Election Commissioner: Appointed by the PM
SC judges: appointed by a collegium consisting of senior SC judges

Never heard of any of the above instittuoins being "taken over" by "islamists et al"..Given the impracticality of direct elections for every important post like this, the process suggested is as comprehensive and fool proof as it can get..The PM and Leader of opposition represent bulk of the "elected will" of the country...
KLNMurthy wrote:Your approach, and the lok pal approach, are all about creating yet another bit of machinery in the same mold as today's, which is the mold that has caused the problem in the first place. Either the mold is fine in which case the problem is bogus, or there is need for a new mold. In your approach, and that of the lok pal people, I don't see any ability to address the problem rationally, at the right level of abstraction, identifying causes, means, effects, and costs
Well not really...The biggest gain from the Lokpal initiative is from the essence of "independence" of the investigative apparatus from the executive...One good example is of the CBI...It is often maligned as the ruling party's handmaiden, sometimes correctly..At the same time, CBI has about a million times better resources to tackle corruption crimes than any police force in the country, which is why everyone (incl opposition parties) demand a CBI enquiry at the drop of every corruption hat...If the CBI is taken in under the formal tutelage of the Lokpal, suddenly the issue of "executive interference" becomes much lesser...It becomes, optically, as well as materially, "independent"...

A bit like the EC...Conducting elections is largely an administrative job...And it ws treated likewise for many decades...It was only when Seshan used a pretty obscure provision of the law to assert "independence" that the institution became what it is - a global exemplar..EC is also a perfect case of how the institution is important, not the individual..Note above how the ECs are appointed, and the appointment is only from a limited pool of ex-bureaucrats - so a distinct patron-clinet relationship in place...Further, during elections, EC simply gets officials deputed from the bureaucracy...And note how the same officials who kowtow before every mohalla politico become a terror to the seniormost leader come election time..

Lokpal isnt a panacea..But it can develop into something like the EC in the anti-corruption fight...The larger problem of course needs comprehensive reforms, which I have touched upon earlier..
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by somnath »

Sidhant wrote:Here is the link from a news report of 2009
Below is the text from the news report.
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told the Rajya Sabha on Thursday that "action has already started" for getting back black money belonging to Indians from Swiss banks.
His remark came after Prakash Javadekar (BJP) sought to know from the Prime Minister what the UPA government was doing to bring back the money within 100 days.



Instead of BRD bashing, why there is no single voice on why the promise has not been fulfilled. What is it that is forcing governments hands. When our economist Prime Minster says that this can be brought back in 100 days then I think it can definitely be brought back in atleast 300 days. I feel that we have been so involved in dissecting BRD's motives that we are not looking at the real issues. I feel it will be much more constructive if we can analyze on how to force GOI to fulfill its promise and surely BRD is doing his part in this, question is what are we doing. Dissing BRD and finding faults in his approach and hair splitting his sinister motives is definitely not helping.
Sidhant-ji, seems like Prakash J said that the govt implied that it would bring back all black mioney in 100 days, not MMS...To be honest, if MMS made that comment, it would be a loose one, not expected of him...

About BR, not sure why questioning him is a sacrilege for some people...To a lot of people, including me, he is a political animal (the reasons have been articluated many times here, its a POV based on certain facts, but one held by many)...Nothing wrong in being a poltiical animal, but there is every right that sceptical citizens have to question his motives as well as the "10 point proposals" on which he went on fast...Thats all...Doesnt mean every BR sceptic is a "mainowadi"...
Last edited by somnath on 12 Jun 2011 16:47, edited 1 time in total.
krisna
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5881
Joined: 22 Dec 2008 06:36

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by krisna »

Manishw wrote:Good to see him end this fast.B Ji is right he should have lived live to fight another day.
correction Manishw.
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by somnath »

joshvajohn wrote:A Swiss window to black money the UPA won't look into

Ashok Dasgupta
New Delhi: The UPA government may have gone into overdrive on the black money issue but it has so far failed to use a Swiss tax provision that will allow India to not just estimate how much money its citizens have illegally stashed away in bank accounts in Switzerland but to also earn revenue from them.
http://www.hindu.com/2011/06/04/stories ... 131400.htm
These are unfortunately precisely the sort of half-baked unresearched ideas that make no sense...

One, it assumes that every penny in a Swiss banking account is "black money"...That is simply not true, Indians can and do have legal offshore money - have been for many decades now...So just a rough cut estimate of quantum of India assets with Swiss banks gives no evidence of how much of it is "black"...(Rough cut as not all assets will be lying as savings deposits, a lot of it will be invested out)..In fact the number quoted of 346 billion of EU member assets in Swiss banks is a very large underestimation..EU members have a much much higher asset base with Swiss banks...

Two, in absence of client information, the abvoe data is not of any practical use at all (for such actions as "nationalisation")...The existance of "black funds" has to be proved with identification of the account holder with some proof that can stand up to a swiss court scrutiny - it is a laborious case-by-case activity, not an en masse "lets nationalisse" all Indian accounts" exercise..
rsingh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4451
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 01:05
Location: Pindi
Contact:

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rsingh »

Guys telling this again.......this Agnivesh is joker of high caliber. I am from Rohtak..........he tried to get elected several times but failed every time......like Imran Bhai.
What a joke. One Babaji giving exit stratigy to another Babaji........in the presence of other maha Babajis :rotfl: . WTF where are cool heads of BRF. Why every body is afraid to say the obvious?

Let me to say here what some of you are afraid to say

*Baba ji's andolan will not bring Black money from overseas
*Even if Babaji prevail and Congress back tracks............will not bring Black money from overseas
*Even if Congress is ousted from power and opposition comes to power .........it will not bring Black money from overseas
*Even if Babaji forms a political party and becomes PM of India........will not bring Black money from overseas

IMO there is one and only one way to bring money back......... create right kind of investment environment. Even with right kind of business environment there will be black money and resourceful people will find a place to hide it. It can be Dubai,Maccao or Timbak tou. Heck even US with all its clouts is unable to get hold on this.........how do we think we can go after this ?
If some are naive enough to think that all what needed is a deamrch to the swiss ambassador and all the problem is solved.........it is fools paradise.
Meanwhile with all these Babaji's drama we are giving legitimacy to the culture of unconstitutional blackmailing and nothing less. I have seen Babaji S.S. Ravishankar ji. In fact one of my family member is a devotee of very high class........following him right to the Black forest HQ in Germany. Not impressed. It is very easy to preach good but only when you have nothing to loose and all to gain.
Shri Anna Hazaree is another class altogether.
krisna
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5881
Joined: 22 Dec 2008 06:36

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by krisna »

somnath wrote: Sidhant-ji, seems like Prakash J said that the govt implied that it would bring back all black mioney in 100 days, not MMS...To be honest, if MMS made that comment, it would be a loose one, not expected of him...

About BR, not sure why questioning him is a sacrilege for some people...To a lot of people, including me, he is a political animal (the reasons have been articluated many times here, its a POV based on certain facts, but one held by many)...Nothing wrong in that, but there is every right that sceptical citizens have to question his motives as well as the "10 point proposals" on which he went on fast...Thats all...Doesnt mean every BR sceptic is a "mainowadi"...
Many posts of yours are your own opinions with less facts. If you have facts you dont bring out them in proper way. The fault is in not making others understand through your posts.

BRD is a political animal -same as sonia gandhi(the worst of all).he is much less dangerous than the ones inside congress.
People can question him but it is based more on opinions and biases rather than any objectivity. Also he is a newcomer to the scene(the new events unfolding currently) compared to sonia gandhi.
we have more material on SG than BRD. Attacking SG is much less here despite she responsible for many actions of the govt. By attacking BRD personality it is easy to derail the thread.

Main issue is on http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1108800
1) corruption/black money etc
2) means to reduce it
3) GOI actions on it as they are the current dispensation at present and they have to take the hit or credit depending on their response. No other way as they gave birth to the biggest scams in our history.

please avoid discussions on
1) AH
2) BRD


Please somnath concentrate on corruption and goi acts rather than attacking BRD.
( sorry if I sound like mama to you :oops: )
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Arjun »

somnath wrote:These are unfortunately precisely the sort of half-baked unresearched ideas that make no sense...
The bulk of the article is about the idea of levying a 'retention tax' that would accrue to India on the interest earned by Indian nationals holding funds in Swiss private banks....Obviously that is something the government should pursue.

The side benefit is that it also provides some amount of quantification on the total assets held by Indians - the next step is to determine what % of that is illegal.
IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9365
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by IndraD »

^^^
Good points Ajatshatru, I would add that BR will have to make it acceptable & palatable to the whole mass while playing chanakian move, sheer emotion/passion will not win. Even if it sounds odd, he should get some maulana/Imamas in his team.

Also he has to understand that getting back to Delhi will have to be through Supreme/High court , also he should seek help from Jat sangh/Kisan mahasabha etc to increase base, there is no flip side o, he should float his own party if the
need be.

It seems INC is no mood of talking even if some one is dying (worst than British) of starvation, while it may appear a futile attempt all such incidents leave an impression on our mind. Surely they will bring change.

And mahafaltoo dick-baklol-singh has launched scathing attack on BR/AH; On BR; 'why he started fasting when he had to end, he should have continued'.
On AH-'rather than fasting and inciting people he should come and join tooth less bill'.
Last edited by IndraD on 12 Jun 2011 17:40, edited 1 time in total.
sanjeevpunj
BRFite
Posts: 971
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 13:10

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by sanjeevpunj »

Congress is already subverting the bill....Pranab Mukherjee(his face is so red as of now-check the fotu on the link) says they will allow the drafting process to be recorded on Audio Tape, but not videographed.How interesting, where's the catch? Wonder who will be participating, we have to keep ears open, as we will not be able to see anything of the proceedings.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_co ... nt_1554159
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by rajanb »

sanjeevpunj wrote:Congress is already subverting the bill....Pranab Mukherjee(his face is so red as of now-check the fotu on the link) says they will allow the drafting process to be recorded on Audio Tape, but not videographed.How interesting, where's the catch? Wonder who will be participating, we have to keep ears open, as we will not be able to see anything of the proceedings.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_co ... nt_1554159
Sanjeevji, the request for video taping was turned down right before the first meeting. Which obviously points to a sore weakness with the UPA. But so what? It can be used by the Lokpal Committee to their advantage too!

The point here is that the Lokpal Committee should be shrewder than the members of the UPA. The endgame is important, so as to stop this from happening:
(As quoted from the link you posted)
Referring to Hazare's deadline of August 15 for passing the Lokpal Bill, Mukherjee said the Centre had suggested that the Lokpal Bill would be placed during the monsoon session of the Parliament.

It was not possible, however, to give a timeframe by when the bill would be passed, he said.
Another 42 years? :evil:

I sincerely wonder that if the Lokpal Bill is tailored to be strict regarding corruption matters whether the opposition parties will be happy and truly co-operate in passing it. There are wheels within wheels here.
sanjeevpunj
BRFite
Posts: 971
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 13:10

Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by sanjeevpunj »

I found this interview of Fali S. Nariman. Quoted here in full.Made a lot of sense to me.

Fali S. Nariman is the country’s most famous constitutional jurist and respected senior advocate of the Supreme Court who has left a mark on international deliberations in his field. In this interview he tells Anand K. Sahay that the Prime Minister and the higher judiciary must be kept out of the purview of the proposed Lokpal law.

Q. Black money abroad and the Lokpal Bill have been in the public realm lately. Where do you think we are headed on both?

A. In the Lokpal case, the Opposition parties have told the government they will pronounce themselves only in Parliament. On the other issue, now everything has got soured by the senseless act of the government to call in the police (at Ramlila Grounds). Neither an order should have been given in the dead of night nor anything done at that hour. What’s the use of getting a big hammer to get rid of innocent people, though they may be misguided? Baba Ramdev probably wanted to steal the limelight. Now we are in a semi-farcical situation; one person is starving and the other half-starving!

Q. Both issues have been with us for many years. Why aren’t things moving?

A. All parties are dragging their feet. Ten years ago, the Law Commission, headed by Justice Jeevan Reddy, drew up a draft bill to confiscate the property of those convicted under the Prevention of Corruption Act. I am surprised the National Democratic Alliance (NDA), United Progressive Alliance-1 and UPA-2 governments haven’t looked at this. This makes me believe that corruption in high places is not being tackled because high-level folks are involved.

Q. Would you have a concrete suggestion on the issue of Indian money parked in foreign banks, which most people think is unaccounted money on which tax has been evaded?

A. I have suggested when I was in the Rajya Sabha — some others have also said similar things: Why doesn’t the government try to introduce legislation to take over the accounts of all Indian nationals in Swiss banks?A custodian can be appointed for such accounts. In effect, nationalise those funds with the specific provision that the custodian will release the money of people who can prove that it was officially remitted from India. The title will then re-vest in them. All this has nothing to do with tax treaties. This is not a tax matter.

Q. How will this work? The government cannot know who has parked money in a Swiss bank. Which particular accounts will the government refer to the Swiss authorities for action?

A. Pass the law, and the custodian will write to the foreign authorities to say that now I am the holder of all accounts (as per India’s law) and please give me the list of the Indians whose accounts are with you.At least try it. If there is a better idea, then tell us.

Q. On the Lokpal issue, the Anna Hazare group wants the Prime Minister, the higher judiciary and the conduct of members of Parliament (MPs) in the House under the scrutiny of the proposed Lokpal. The government apparently doesn’t agree. How do you see all this through the prism of the Constitution?

A. The breaking point on the Lokpal discussion was reached with the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) saying in the 2G spectrum case that the money lost to the exchequer could be `1 lakh crore. That caught the imagination of the public and the Lokpal debate revived. Even the government says it is `30,000 crore. That is hardly a small amount. As for myself, I am dead against placing the Prime Minister and the higher judiciary under the Lokpal. I am not bothered about MPs and ministers. If the Prime Minister is brought under the Lokpal’s scrutiny, the Lokpal will be all-powerful. He will be more powerful than the Prime Minister. In the parliamentary system, the Prime Minister can go out only if Parliament so resolves.

Q. But the question is not of easing out the Prime Minister outside of the Parliament forum, only to inquire into his conduct if this is warranted on suspicions of corruption.

A. The person who enquires into you is superior to you. The Prime Minister may as well resign. As for the Lokpal looking into the higher judiciary, we should keep in view that the higher judiciary interprets the Constitution. For them we should have a judicial ombudsman who will look into complaints, investigate privately and be able to recommend steps, including removal. A retired judge of the Supreme Court can be such an authority. We have to treat the higher judiciary separately.

Q. What if a Prime Minister turns crooked?

A. If the Prime Minister is crooked, in our system you have to suffer him. Or get him out through the political route — mobilise enough MPs etc.
As for higher judiciary, judges have been eased out. A.M. Ahmadi, former Chief Justice of India, got rid of A.M. Bhattacharjee, former Chief Justice of the Bombay high court. These things also depend on the personality of the Chief Justice or the ombudsman. Everything in life can’t be legislated. Otherwise, you can’t run a country.
Because our political parties don’t allow Parliament to function, we get people going on fasts etc. Let Parliament ventilate the national mood. Otherwise, you will have to change the whole system.
Our Parliament hardly works. The Speaker says we must meet for 100 days. Right now it is only 70 days. And what do they do in that time? The government manages to get budgetary allocations cleared so that it may itself function. Not much beyond that. The trouble is we don’t like to observe the rules of the game and allow people to ventilate their grievances in Parliament.
I would say allot more time each week to Private Member’s Bills. Private members are ordinary MPs of parties or Independents. They too are civil society. Why shouldn’t we hear them and discuss their ideas? But then Parliament will have to work more days.

Q. Why has Parliament not passed a Lokpal law for 40 years? Is there an anxiety that the Prime Minister will be brought under it?

A. There is no anxiety about the Prime Minister. The real reason is that they want to conceal corruption in high places. The Prime Minister has asked his ministers to disclose their assets. It is too late. Inaction has fuelled rumours and speculation that all ministers have secret accounts!

Q. So, what kind of Lokpal law should we have that fits with our Constitutional scheme?

A. I’d like a Constitutional amendment to elevate the Lokpal to Constitutional status — like the CAG or the Election Commission — from the statutory one under discussion. Then there is a higher sense of responsibility.A Constitutional amendment will test all parties. But the Prime Minister and higher judiciary should be excluded from the purview. Otherwise, the question is who will guard the guardians.
Last edited by sanjeevpunj on 12 Jun 2011 18:08, edited 2 times in total.
Locked