Indian Naval Discussion

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 01 Jul 2011 17:57

Philip wrote:Pilots can't resist the thrill of doing some stunt flying.We've seen several crashes at air shows,the superb performance of a Russian zero-zero ejector seat at Paris a few years ago (!) and even a few decades ago,the unfortunate crash and death of the pilot,a WC if I'm not mistaken at the IAF's air show,flying an M-2000 bcause he performed a manouevre flying too low.The best example is that of Sanjay Gandhi and his Pitts aircraft.I was reading a recent AWST about flying displays in the US ,where the finest stunt flyers take part and the tragic deaths of some of them ,soem at these very air shows.

yes...all agreed...but point is when a commercial firm (Mig Corporation) is engaged in a contract to deliver production ready aircraft to a customer will there not be some restrictions on maneuvers that pilots can perform? I am just wondering --from a standard process standpoint--this is not some aircraft which has not got initial operation clearance or anything..

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 01 Jul 2011 18:58

Indian Navy to buy 80 fast interception craft from Lankan firm.

India has placed an order for 80 fast-interception craft (FICs), or high-speed patrol boats, from a Sri Lanka-based ship manufacturer to equip the new Sagar Prahari Bal (SPB) being raised by Navy. The SPB was created in the aftermath of the 26/11 terror attacks in Mumbai.

Defence ministry officials on Thursday said the Sri Lanka-based SOLAS Marine has been selected after a global tender and the around Rs300 crore ($67 million) contract would be inked soon.

"The delivery of the FICs should be completed in three years," said an official.

These 80 FICs are in addition to 15 similar boats being acquired from French shipyard Chantier Naval Couach, three of which have already been inducted at Mumbai. "All these 15 FICs will be with the Navy by end-2012," officials said.

The 15 FICs are being procured from the French company at a cost of Rs60 crore.

After formal orders, it will take up to 36 months for the Sri Lankan firm to deliver the boats, officials said.

SOLAS Marine Lanka is part of a Dubai-based group according to the firm's website.

It had bought over Blue Star Marine, a Sri Lankan boat maker that had been in business for 25 years.

With 1,000 well-armed personnel, the specialized SPB will be tasked with the protection of naval and other assets, bases and harbours on both west and east coasts.

According to defence officials, FICs are small boats with a crew of five to seven sailors, equipped with light machine guns and top speeds of 40 to 50 knots. They will mainly be used as fast-reaction units to bolster coastal security.

After 26/11 fully-networked joint operation centres have been set up in Mumbai, Visakhapatnam, Kochi and Port Blair. Joint exercises are being conducted and new Coast Guard stations are being set up.

The government is contemplating a comprehensive maritime intelligence network through a national "maritime domain awareness (MDA)" project. The plans for the project has been drawn up by the Navy and submitted to the government.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 01 Jul 2011 18:59

AugustaWestland, Sikorsky Join Navy’s Copter Bid.

AugustaWestland and Sikorsky Aircraft, the two global helicopter manufacturers currently vying for major defence tenders in the country, have confirmed their participation in Indian Navy's recently issued Request for Information (RFI) for a second batch of multirole helicopters.

The RFI, published earlier this month which calls for new naval multi-role helicopters with antisubmarine, anti-surface and special operation capabilities, is the latest one to be issued by the Navy, which is close to procuring 16 multi-role helicopters for an estimated $1-billion.

The deadline for receiving responses to the RFI is July 19.

"It hasn't exactly come as a surprise. The Indian Navy has been working towards its requirements for some time now. The existing competition for procuring multi-role helicopters will continue as scheduled," Air Vice Marshal AJ Walia, managing director - India and South Asia, Sikorsky Aircraft, told ET.

While Sikorsky is yet to finalise the helicopter it plans to offer in response to the RFI, Walia said the S-70B, which is currently in contention for the Navy's ongoing helicopter competition, could be the company's pick once again.

AugustaWestland, in an emailed reply to ET queries, said it plans to offer its NH-90 helicopter. Interestingly, Sikorsky's MH-60R 'Romeo' helicopter, offered jointly by Sikorsky, Lockheed Martin and the United States Navy, could also once again come into the picture following its withdrawal from the ongoing helicopter procurement process. At the time of its removal, defence ministry officials had cited a lack of clarity on commitments offered by the three stakeholders.

"It could be offered. But for the MH-60R to be in the competition, the US Navy will have to respond, since it is their proprietary technology. So it's their call. We can also offer other machines from our stable," Walia said. "We will be having flight evaluation trials by end-September, which should conclude before the third week of October," Walia said.

The RFI calls for helicopters weighing between nine to 12.5 tonne, which can be operated from its Godavari class of frigates, and are expected to be in service for 30 years or more.

Further, the document also asks vendors to offer an "option clause of at least 50% of the numbers on the helicopters," should the Indian Navy choose to exercise it. Indian Navy, currently, has been using its aging Sea King fleet, while its three-decade old Kamov-25 helicopters are in the process of being phased out.

According to a 2010 Comptroller and Auditor General report, the Navy's Sea King 42A variant has been in service for 31 years and the 42B for 23 years, well above their mandated life usage of 20 years or 3,000 flight hours. The RFI has also taken into consideration the life cycle costs for the helicopters, an assessment missing in the previous tender. "It's a very good development, which brings out the actual value of the machine," Walia added.

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Jul 2011 23:44

Quick Reference for the above post.

NH-90 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2eluUcliW0

MH-60R http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzijR9u7ugc

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Jul 2011 23:59

The SeaHawk should be considered only if they offer the full-spec MH-60R. The mango S-70B is the export (Lite) version.
Perhaps the IN can convince Sikorsky to fit a MAD suite on the MH-60R as well, if there is any space left.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 02 Jul 2011 04:10

Russia to hand over India nuclear sub by year-end.
Times of India

NEW DELHI: India will finally operate a nuclear-powered submarine by this year-end. The Akula-II class nuclear submarine K-152 Nerpa, to be rechristened INS Chakra, will be handed over to Indian Navy by Russian Navy by November-December. Confirming this, Russian Navy chief Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky has been quoted as holding that "the Indian crew is now absolutely prepared for operating the submarine'', which will be on a 10-year lease.

Over 50 Indian officers and sailors have undergone extensive training on the Nerpa, followed by testing and acceptance trials of the submarine spread over several weeks, as earlier reported by TOI. The lease flows from an agreement inked between New Delhi and Moscow in January 2004, with India funding part of Nerpa's construction at Komsomolsk-on-Amur shipyard in Russia with an initial $650 million.

Nerpa was slated for induction much earlier but technical glitches delayed the process, which included a toxic gas leak in November 2008 that killed 20 Russian sailors. Incidentally, the `Charlie-I' class nuclear submarine India had leased from Russia from 1988 to 1991 was also named INS Chakra but the expertise gained on it was steadily lost since Indian Navy did not operate any other nuclear submarine thereafter.

Though not armed with long-range nuclear-tipped missiles due to international treaties like the Missile Technology Control Regime, the Nerpa will bridge the gap now. It will help train Indian sailors in the complex art of operating nuclear submarines, which will be useful when India's own nuclear submarine, the over 6,000-tonne INS Arihant, becomes operational next year. Armed with torpedoes and 300-km Klub-S cruise missiles, Nerpa of course will also be a lethal hunter of enemy submarines and warships.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 02 Jul 2011 08:40

Russia set to take part in new Indian submarine tender

Russia behind schedule on Indian frigates delivery

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Jul 2011 11:19

prithvi wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 057089.cms

Question is, do all the serial production fighter jets go through a standard test procedure before delivery or it is pretty much up to the pilots to "play" with the toy?

There are experimental test pilots who fly the aircraft during it's development phase and hence it's riskiest phase for any pilot or aircraft.

and later after series production there are production test pilots who first fly and accept the new new build aircraft ( or sometimes even overhauled aircraft ).

There are standard flight tests, checks and procedures with each and every system of the aiircraft being subjected to detailed tests with stringent go / no go criteria for acceptance (depending on the aircraft) with reams of paperwork to fill out before the aircraft is released to a normal squadron pilot
who may then carry out his own acceptance check flight prior to ferrying it out to a squadron ( with more reams of paper work to fill out )

The guys involved in the accident may have been experimental test pilots.

The pilot community has much more than it's fair share of blokes who do not use their grey matter.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 02 Jul 2011 22:48

prithvi wrote: "We have got feedback from Russia (MiG Corporation) that the crash was due to 'pilot error'," said Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma.

The Russian pilots were apparently taking the MiG-29K, which was a twin-seater trainer version of the fighter, through some high-speed intricate combat manoeuvres at a height much lower than what was needed and could not pull out of a dive in time.

Question is, do all the serial production fighter jets go through a standard test procedure before delivery or it is pretty much up to the pilots to "play" with the toy?

Any test flight is carried out in accordance with test flight programme specific for that flight. This programme is prepared by the team of test engineers reflecting specific flight envelope which has to be proven flawless and safe for use by ordinary pilots. Every move of controls made by pilots is recorded and analysed after the flight and no test pilot will risk his wings intentionally doing something outside the described flight programme.

According to the flight programme the last maneuvre before returning to Akhtubinsk base was a high speed descending Immelmann, diving from 2000 m at v=950 km/h, engines at Max with pull out at 500 m requiring 6G and throttling down to Min. This is extremely dangerous maneuvre at that altitude and it is unclear why it was included in the flight programme.

Russian official move to describe this to Admiral Verma as the error of the pilots is blasphemy.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Jul 2011 08:25

Look,manufacturers often want the aircraft tested to the limits.Read AM Philip Rajkumar's tale of Jagura Darin testing in VAYU 3/11.The Brits wanted him to do a 60 degree maximum KIAS (knots indicated air sped) dive,which he performed, but the aircraft refused to go beyond a speed of M 1.2,while the manufacturers wanted a data point upto M 1.4. He kept trying several times and once found himself at an alt. above Kolar of just 1500ft doing 700 KIAS,50 KIAS above the flight manual! He finally convinced them that the aircraft would not go beyond M 1.2 esp. with ordnance and drop tanks.

The report that Russia is offering the Amur for the sub tender is most interestin,esp. if it offers a version with Brahmos and AIP.That would b an unbeatable combination that no other manufacturer is capable of.A few air/defexpo shows ago,we saw B'Mos equipped models of an Amur.What will be a factor is that there is a huge proliferation of sub in the Asian/IOR region,particularly western subs-German U-boats (214s) for Korea,etc.,Swedish in S'pore service,and Scorpenes in Indian and Malaysia service,plus Kilos for Vietnam which is getting IN assistance for its navy.A BMos equipped Amur will have an edge over the others,esp. as the emerging PLAN carrier threat-5 on order will have to be faced .IN subs operating in the Indo-China Sea would be our best method of keeping an eye on the PLAN and as a weapon of stealth in any crisis,which can ambush the PLAN even before it enters the IOR through any of the choke points.

The IN's strategy should take a leaf from China's 3-zone strategy in the Pacific,its Inner Island chain,Outer island,etc.,etc.Our first line of defence should be in the Indo-China Sea using a large number of subs and LRMP aircraft.Long-legged TU-142s will still serve us for another decade and along with newer P-8Is operating from the Andmans will be able to monitor PLAN activities in the Indo-China Sea.Using port facilties for both subs and surface vessels,required to "show the flag" ,will ensure a three-dimensional operational strategy,but the real strength will be in the sub ops,also required for shadowing PLAN SSBNs.This is where a large number of SSGNs of the Akula class,perhaps even a smaller 8000t version of the ATV,will be essential.Our SSBNs,once equipped with true ICBM sub-launched,can use the entire IOR to hide in making it v.difficult for PLAN shadowing which have to patrol in the Pacific with the US as their main target.The strategic sub base at Hainan island gives the PRC an ideal location from where it subs can move into the Indo-China Sea,the Pacific and the IOR.It is where the PLAN and its subs have to challenged first.

Our second line of defence in the east will be the A&N islands .In the west apart from Lakshadweep we have no island bases,though our defence agreements with Mauritius,Seychelles,the Maldives and hopefully a working relationship with the SLN (Lanka) ,will give us greater reach in the IOR esp. monitoring hostiles.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Jul 2011 20:46

Philip wrote:Our first line of defence should be in the Indo-China Sea using a large number of subs and LRMP aircraft.

I love the ring of "Indo-China" sea!!!

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 03 Jul 2011 21:31

Shrinivasan wrote:
Philip wrote:Our first line of defence should be in the Indo-China Sea using a large number of subs and LRMP aircraft.
I love the ring of "Indo-China" sea!!!

Shrinivasan there is even better term:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1118912

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Jul 2011 23:18

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:I love the ring of "Indo-China" sea!!!
Shrinivasan there is even better term:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1118912

Indo-Pacific... a better ring to it...

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 04 Jul 2011 01:03

Shipbuilders eye defence orders to tide over slump

Securing contracts to build warships has emerged as an option for local shipyards seeking to sail through a global downturn in the industry.

ABG Shipyard Ltd, India’s largest shipbuilder outside state control, entered defence production last week by signing a contract with the Indian navy to build two cadet training ships together valued at Rs. 970 crore.

“There is ample scope for defence contracts,” said Dhananjay Datar, ABG’s chief financial officer. “There will be a positive impact on valuations with defence portfolio in the order book.”

The navy and the Indian coast guard have lined up projects worth at least Rs. 50,000 crore in the next 10-15 years to patrol the country’s coastline that stretches over 7,400km, according to the defence ministry. The government is also focusing on enhancing local defence production with private participation.

Recently, Pipavav Shipyard Ltd announced changing its name to Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering Co. Ltd to better reflect its growing focus on defence and oil and gas sectors.

The change in name came after Pipavav secured a licence to build warships for the Indian navy and a clearance from the Foreign Investment Promotion Board in March permitting foreign direct equity investment in the company.

“Indian shipyards are facing a threat of a slowdown. There are no major orders coming their way. These companies have identified defence production to avoid idling of their infrastructure,” a shipyard consultant said, requesting anonymity. “Considering the flow of defence orders in the pipeline, the valuations of these yards will also have a positive impact.”

Larsen and Toubro Ltd (L&T), India’s biggest engineering and construction company, began work in 2008 on a Rs. 3,375 crore shipbuilding yard at Kattupalli in Tamil Nadu, mainly for commercial ships, but had to change course after the global recession to focus on the defence business, a company executive said on condition of anonymity.

For most yards, the current order books for building commercial ships will last till 2014 and new orders for such vessels aren’t coming by easily.

“There is a lull all over the world. For shipyards, if orders from international companies are not coming, it has to come from somewhere,” said Revati Kasture, head of research at rating agency Credit Analysis and Research Ltd (CARE).

“It is not just a question of slowdown or valuation,” Kasture added. “If you have a shipyard that has the capability to build defence ships, and customers, then why not?”

Kasture said valuations will follow if investors see revenue coming to these shipyards from defence businesses. The defence ministry is evaluating options of placing orders with domestic shipyards and has asked shipyards to secure a rating indicating financial health from rating agencies, including CARE.

The agency has carried out ratings for three shipyards in India, including ABG and Bharati Shipyard Ltd.

About 42% of Pipavav’s $1.5 billion (about Rs. 6,700 crore) order book already comes from defence contracts. Pipavav has tied up with various foreign strategic partners, including SAAB Dynamics AB, Northrop Grumman Corp., and Babcock group UK to boost capabilities in the defence segment.

The company proposes to convert an existing wet dock into a second dry dock to enhance the capabilities to build warships for the Indian navy and the export market, said a recent investor presentation made by the company.

Analysts predict a bad year for shipping companies, with freight rates expected to remain low after a record delivery of vessels last year.

A 25 January Fitch Ratings Ltd’s report said its 2011 outlook for India’s shipping industry is negative. The agency expects all shipping segments to face low freight rates because the net increase in capacity has exceeded demand.

The Union government, too, has delayed a share sale in Cochin Shipyard Ltd over fears that the downturn in shipping will impact valuation, said a shipping ministry spokesman.

The state-run shipyard, which is constructing the country’s first local-made aircraft carrier for the navy, has hired consultancy Ernst and Young to prepare a business and vision plan in the changed scenario for the next 10-20 years, a company spokesperson said.

Last year, L&T won a Rs. 977 crore contract for designing and constructing 36 high-speed interceptor boats for the coast guard.

Last month, Pipavav said it had signed a Rs. 2,975 crore order from the navy to build five gunboats.

Cochin Shipyard last year won a contract from the coast guard for constructing 20 fast-patrol vessels valued at Rs. 1,500 crore.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Jul 2011 03:19

Indo-China has better legitimacy because the entire landmass of the region abutting the "Indo-China Sea" has been historically known as Indo-China.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jul 2011 11:44

Any update on the 80 Fast Interception Vessels to be built by the Srilankan Shipyard? what will be the armaments on this boat? I think they would look more like these Cigarette Boats
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go-fast_boat.
We also are buying 15 larger "interceptors" for the IN, what will be their armaments?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 04 Jul 2011 17:29

article on P8I
http://ifile.it/anqo8pt/8i.zip

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 05 Jul 2011 01:21

MiG Crash in Russia Freezes Further Indian Buys

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Jul 2011 05:52

Juggi G wrote:MiG Crash in Russia Freezes Further Indian Buys

This is wrong news, IN chief has confirmed that there is no freeze in the IN order as RU has informed them that it was Pilot error and not an equipment malfunction. (see the posts couple of days before in this topic itself). The Pilots were performing a maneuver and ran out of altitude to recover to level flight.
Also there is no intent for IN to order more than 45 planes (16 original +29 subsequent order) of which 11 have been delivered (7 single seater and 4 twin-seaters).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Jul 2011 10:43

@ Juggi G, please don't post defensenews articles.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Jul 2011 12:01

Case for small subs for the littorals:

After the sinking of the Cheonan,SoKo's ASW corvette allegedly by a small cheap NoKo midget/mini sub,navies are starting to rexamine the value of such cheapos for defence in the littorals.Apart from NoKo,one country heavily investing in such subs is Iran,where the shallow waters of the Persian Gulf are ideal for such ops,and Iran can field them in large numbers.

With a coastline of thousands of kms,India has a real head-scratch,especially as our sub numbers are depleting rapidly,with no sign as to a return to healthy numbers until the next decade.Therefore some hard quick innovative decisions have to be taken.Older subs,like the Kilos to be pensioned off can be made use of by using them in a coastal surveillance defensive role and for training purposes.But even these numbers would be insufficient.Unfortunately,most of the smaller versions of subs designed by major manufacturers try and pack in too much into a small hull,adding to complexity and cost.If the cocaine smugglers of S.Am. can build their home made subs to sail all the way to the US undetected,delivering a few tons of cocaine worth hundreds of millions,there must be something that we can learn from their example.The LTTE too tried to build their own subs but the war ended too quickly for them to have seen action.

In the entrance courtyard to Barcelona's splendid Drassanes maritime museum,housed in the former shipbuilding yards just off the Ramblas,lies a proud display of a small wooden sub from yesteryear,designed and built by the pioneers of the sub era.This sub has always intrigued me and the WW2 escapades of Japanese midget subs at Pearl Harbour prior to the attack continue to fascinate one.In recent times,research showed that one sub might've evn launched a failed attack against ships bthanks to faulty torpedos . A couple of months ago a picture in Frontline intrigued me.It was of a hall in a BHEL facility where large boilers were being turned out like sausages.In fact,the caption could've easily been that of a sub-building facility! The Germans at the end of WW2 were producing about 30 subs a month,just like sausages! I immediately had the idea that such manufacturing capabilities like BHEL,L&T etc., could very easily churn out small mini/midget subs at a fantastic rate,even a doozen a year,provided that the subs capabilities were also kept basic and not overburdened with too much of hi-tech.

The main task of these subs would be to sanitise the coast,especially naval bases and ports from enemy subs and special forces vehicles.While UUVs are becoming popular,with great endurance too,their capability against an enemy intruder is almost non-existant.There are designs for "suicide UUVs",somewhat similar to the Israeli Harpy drone,but a small manned sub has far greater capability and potential given the "human factor" involved in operations.Ideally,such a sub should have between 6-8 lightweight anti-sub torpedos and a small crew,using automation to the maximum.It will not require great diving depth,being confined to littoral ops,perhaps 150m sufficient,depending upon the ocean depths off our coastline and island territories,best known to our hydrographers and classified.High speed would also not be a major requirement and with a quiet engine and ample batteries,the sub could be extremely quiet too.A one-two week's endurance should be enough for this limited role.The IN could easily field at least 2-3 dozen of these subs within 3-5 years at low cost as the hi-tech quotient would not be beyond our capacity.An additional role that these subs could play is for special forces use which might require a slightly larger version.The large numbers of such subs available could easily throttle any attempt by enemy subs attemtping to gain access to the IOR through the usual chokepoints.With this defensive role entrusted to the mini/midget subs in the main,our larger conventional subs could then be relieved from such coastal duties and embark upon more agressive roles and ops in the IOR and beyond.

Is the IN/MOD listening?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 05 Jul 2011 17:52

There is something very serious with Russia. This attitude of delays and cost escalation is going to make them lose not only the Indian defense market, but also many worldwide. So it's now better to forget the Amur for second line of subs.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Russi ... ed/812681/

Already hit by the massive delay in the Gorshkov aircraft carrier delivery, the Indian Navy may be in for another blow.

A top Russian official has said that the first of the new Talwar class frigates, ordered under a $1.1 billion contract in 2006 and set to be delivered by the end of this year, has been delayed.

While Russia has not formally conveyed any delay in the project for construction of three Talwar class frigates to India, concerns have risen after a senior official from the state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport publicly stated that a new deadline will have to be drawn. India ordered three of the frigates in 2006, with the first ship to be delivered in 2011.

While the quantum of delay has not been specified, senior Russian officials have been quoted as saying that while dockside trials are on, the frigate will not be able to meet its deadline. Besides the delay, a price escalation is also likely as the Yantar shipyard that is constructing the warships has asked for an additional $100 million for the ships to factor in inflation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jul 2011 17:55

hopefully these are the last 4 warships we ever build in Rus. I think they know it, and will squeeze us pretty hard on these 4 and the nerpa before letting go.

none of the INs future projects like P15A/B, P17A , MCMV will have Rus contribution except the brahmos and perhaps ak630. they have lost the main radar, combat system, SAM, EO kit, decoys, main power plant, hvac, helicopter areas...

the ADS2 will have the rafale-M or JSF, Mig29K is entering its final chapter.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jul 2011 18:01

IN will simply charge penalty for any delays like they did with the first 3 Talwar class and they adjusted to the next 3 now being built , the clause is simple build on time or pay penalty for delay , fair and square.

Reportedly the IN is building 3 more follow on Teg class , its yet to be decided if they will be built in India in private yard or in Russian yard.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Jul 2011 18:06

Singha wrote:
the ADS2 will have the rafale-M or JSF, Mig29K is entering its final chapter.

Saar, you forgot NLCA.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 05 Jul 2011 18:08

Austin, if there is a war now, We are going to suffer. penalty or no penalty. It's more with national security. Russians cannot complete the work on time. What's happening? Even the Gorshkov Saga is never ending. Now the latest date has moved to Early 2013 from end of 2012. Going like this we may not see Vikramaditya in IN naval service. Even the Chinese are doing so well with the Varyag. I don't think there will be any more Teg class. India will not dare order more from Russia.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jul 2011 18:14

Philip wrote:Case for small subs for the littorals:
If the cocaine smugglers of S.Am. can build their home made subs to sail all the way to the US undetected,delivering a few tons of cocaine worth hundreds of millions,there must be something that we can learn from their example.
Is the IN/MOD listening?

Philip , Does the IN have to learn from Cocaine smugglers on the usefulness of small submarine

Seriously though this is what I learnt from some one in the know , IN is quite keen to induct small submarine in sufficient numbers but MOD has certain projected force level for conventional submarine , beyond those accepted level IN cannot add more submarine to its fleet.

IN is making the most of it by inducting submarine of decent tonnage ( P-75/75I ) within the number approved by MOD , if the IN starts inducting small submarine of ~ 500 T class then the bean counters in the MOD would say we have approved certain numbers for submarine fleet and we cannot approve any more.

The bean counters would not care what class of submarine is under consideration as long as it is within approved force levels , according to their logic a submarine is a submarine , so IN is making most of it by inducting quality big sub and not inducting smaller ones even though they would like to have it in their fleet.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jul 2011 18:17

the cocaine 'subs' are really low hulled boats which are mostly awash with just the conning tower in middle sticking out...kinda like a snorkelling sub without the ability to completely submerge. you can see pix on the web.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jul 2011 19:00

Yeah I saw a documentary on CNN on these subs , these are not subs in the real sense as they cannot submerge completely and endure , just fast boats with conning tower, but recently they built one good sub that can dive better then the others link

John · Post by **John** » 05 Jul 2011 19:01

Philip wrote:Case for small subs for the littorals:

After the sinking of the Cheonan,SoKo's ASW corvette allegedly by a small cheap NoKo midget/mini sub,navies are starting to rexamine the value of such cheapos for defence in the littorals.Apart from NoKo,one country heavily investing in such subs is Iran,where the shallow waters of the Persian Gulf are ideal for such ops,and Iran can field them in large numbers.
?

Philip manned midget submarine have little to no ASW capability because of there limited speed and sonar, unless we have choke pointof a couple kms chance of them running into each other is next to impossible. I do see value in small submersible i think those tasks can be handled by unmanned vehicles operating from larger manned submarine (SSN).

uddu wrote:Austin, if there is a war now, We are going to suffer. penalty or no penalty. It's more with national security. Russians cannot complete the work on time. What's happening? Even the Gorshkov Saga is never ending. Now the latest date has moved to Early 2013 from end of 2012. Going like this we may not see Vikramaditya in IN naval service. Even the Chinese are doing so well with the Varyag. I don't think there will be any more Teg class. India will not dare order more from Russia.

Even with budget overruns Teg will still cost less than P-17s and be completed in half the time. IMO we should incorporate some of the changes in Shivalik into Talwar class and should have focused on building for time being.

chandanus · Post by **chandanus** » 05 Jul 2011 19:42

uddu wrote:There is something very serious with Russia. This attitude of delays and cost escalation is going to make them lose not only the Indian defense market, but also many worldwide. So it's now better to forget the Amur for second line of subs.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Russi ... ed/812681/

Already hit by the massive delay in the Gorshkov aircraft carrier delivery, the Indian Navy may be in for another blow.

A top Russian official has said that the first of the new Talwar class frigates, ordered under a $1.1 billion contract in 2006 and set to be delivered by the end of this year, has been delayed.

While Russia has not formally conveyed any delay in the project for construction of three Talwar class frigates to India, concerns have risen after a senior official from the state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport publicly stated that a new deadline will have to be drawn. India ordered three of the frigates in 2006, with the first ship to be delivered in 2011.

While the quantum of delay has not been specified, senior Russian officials have been quoted as saying that while dockside trials are on, the frigate will not be able to meet its deadline. Besides the delay, a price escalation is also likely as the Yantar shipyard that is constructing the warships has asked for an additional $100 million for the ships to factor in inflation.

I believe this Gorky + Teg +Nepra episode will teach the Indian policy planners the value of self reliance..The hard way though !!!

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 05 Jul 2011 20:21

chandanus wrote:
uddu wrote:There is something very serious with Russia. This attitude of delays and cost escalation is going to make them lose not only the Indian defense market, but also many worldwide. So it's now better to forget the Amur for second line of subs.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Russi ... ed/812681/

Already hit by the massive delay in the Gorshkov aircraft carrier delivery, the Indian Navy may be in for another blow.

A top Russian official has said that the first of the new Talwar class frigates, ordered under a $1.1 billion contract in 2006 and set to be delivered by the end of this year, has been delayed.

While Russia has not formally conveyed any delay in the project for construction of three Talwar class frigates to India, concerns have risen after a senior official from the state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport publicly stated that a new deadline will have to be drawn. India ordered three of the frigates in 2006, with the first ship to be delivered in 2011.

While the quantum of delay has not been specified, senior Russian officials have been quoted as saying that while dockside trials are on, the frigate will not be able to meet its deadline. Besides the delay, a price escalation is also likely as the Yantar shipyard that is constructing the warships has asked for an additional $100 million for the ships to factor in inflation.
I believe this Gorky + Teg +Nepra episode will teach the Indian policy planners the value of self reliance..The hard way though !!!

NO IT WILL NOT.

The $$$$$s form Natasha are too overpowering

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 05 Jul 2011 20:39

Well, Sureesh Mehta did say that Gorshkov should cause GOI to review its relationship with Russia

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Jul 2011 21:24

Hey why blame them when the assorted Rodina lovers will come out and defend and justify them.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jul 2011 21:31

Philip wrote:Case for small subs for the littorals:

http://geneva-globaldefence.blogspot.co ... es-as.html

The Indian Navy and Coast Guard believe that improvised mini-submarines constitute the nation's primary emerging threat. These may range from swimmer-delivery vehicles of the type employed for recreational scuba diving to remotely operated vehicles and autonomous underwater vehicles. These types of vehicles are already in service with the navies of Iran, Myanmar and Pakistan (all having procured them from North Korea).

As has been amply demonstrated by the navies of North Korea and Iran, these small vessels make good platforms for ambushes even at submerged depths of 150 feet, enough room for the midget submersible to maneuver. These submarines cannot travel too far on their own, and depend on support vessels to extend their range. However, in their shallow water element where sonar returns are cluttered, they can prove quiet and deadly. Their capabilities include the ability to lay mines or insert commandos on beaches.

As North Korea demonstrated with the sinking of the Cheonan, attacks from midget submersibles can also include torpedoes armed with 250-kilogram warheads.

The Indian Navy believes that two factors heighten the risk of an ambush by midget submarines against Indian warships. These are the complex sonar picture of shallow water where these small submersibles can operate, and the absence of a network of seabed-mounted sonar transducers dotting the Indian coastline. With the exception of Port Blair, none of the 200 non-major ports in India are equipped with any identification or surveillance systems, and there are currently no concrete ground rules for patrolling India’s inshore coastal areas and the numerous creeks and rivulets along the coastline.

In early 2009, the Indian Navy proposed that a Maritime Security Adviser (MSA) be appointed, along with a supporting Maritime Security Advisory Board (MSAB), to take stock of the growing oceanic influence on India’s foreign policy. The intention was for the MSAB to coordinate the operations of more than 14 government departments and agencies responsible for various elements of maritime affairs with several security agencies with jurisdictions along India’s coastline. This proposal has not been adopted.

Image From: http://www.w54.biz/showthread.php?688-I ... ters/page3
N Korean semi-sumersible carrying two torpedoes........similar "rumoured" to be in-service with Bangladesh and Pakistan

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Jul 2011 22:30

Austin wrote: Seriously though this is what I learnt from some one in the know , IN is quite keen to induct small submarine in sufficient numbers but MOD has certain projected force level for conventional submarine , beyond those accepted level IN cannot add more submarine to its fleet.

IN is making the most of it by inducting submarine of decent tonnage ( P-75/75I ) within the number approved by MOD , if the IN starts inducting small submarine of ~ 500 T class then the bean counters in the MOD would say we have approved certain numbers for submarine fleet and we cannot approve any more.

The bean counters would not care what class of submarine is under consideration as long as it is within approved force levels , according to their logic a submarine is a submarine , so IN is making most of it by inducting quality big sub and not inducting smaller ones even though they would like to have it in their fleet.

That is how all nations work.

As long as the bean counter and the naval planner do their jobs things should be under control. More than likely the Indian political wing is out of whack - what else is new?

I bet the Indian political wing fell asleep, woke up to find a sudden change in the political climate around India and is now demanding more out of the armed forces.

IMHO, the problem is "and the absence of a network of seabed-mounted sonar transducers dotting the Indian coastline" (been yelling for it for ages). I do not think there is a better ROI than these puppies. Surprised that it has not been done by now. They are the radars of the sea, and if we can justify multiple layers of radars to protect the air there is not better way to keep an eye on all of the water than these things.

Small subs are great, but they better be offensive and used as much as possible even in peace times.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 05 Jul 2011 22:42

Don't you know? They are "re-structuring"

Surya wrote:Hey why blame them when the assorted Rodina lovers will come out and defend and justify them.

Anuj A · Post by **Anuj A** » 06 Jul 2011 00:05

Video of IN VBSS teams being trained by IN MARCOs (the ones in Camo are the MARCOs trainers)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3iwidSp2Zc

Great vid + awesome music- shows how well trained IN VBSS teams are (getting their training from the best!) and shows the MARCOS showing some of their skills (shooting, beach assault etc).

Enjoy!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 03:48

Singha wrote:hopefully these are the last 4 warships we ever build in Rus. I think they know it, and will squeeze us pretty hard on these 4 and the nerpa before letting go.

Agree with you 1000%, all this makes us look stupid to say the least... Here we are paying top$$$ for their stuff, waiting years, having spares problems and being held ransom for the same. I know we COULD not get these elsewhere, but that was decades ago. Now everyone and their brother wants to sell us stuff...
Earlier I used to think there is something Chankiyan about Goshkov delay and price escalation... now it is apparent that it was all a money making scheme for ruskies and some middlemen.
With Friends like these, who needs enemies!!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2011 06:09

Shrinivasan wrote:
Singha wrote:hopefully these are the last 4 warships we ever build in Rus. I think they know it, and will squeeze us pretty hard on these 4 and the nerpa before letting go.
Agree with you 1000%, all this makes us look stupid to say the least... Here we are paying top$$$ for their stuff, waiting years, having spares problems and being held ransom for the same. I know we COULD not get these elsewhere, but that was decades ago. Now everyone and their brother wants to sell us stuff...
Earlier I used to think there is something Chankiyan about Goshkov delay and price escalation... now it is apparent that it was all a money making scheme for ruskies and some middlemen.
With Friends like these, who needs enemies!!!

We may not be that stupid - although we may be caught in a "difficult situation". Our standards are much higher and correction of shoddiness or inadequacy is not publicized. In the past we used to accept 50 hours MTBF engines because we had to. Now we probably say "This just won't do". Russian/Soviet tech has a history of being "bare-bones" and designed for Siberia.