putnanja wrote:IJT crashes during test flight
The debry field does look very concentrated. I feel the prototype was falling on its belly. Might have indeed entered a flat spin.
putnanja wrote:IJT crashes during test flight
Good assessment of the photo IMO. That is the feeling I had but was unable to express it in the succinct language you have used.indranilroy wrote:putnanja wrote:IJT crashes during test flight
The debry field does look very concentrated. I feel the prototype was falling on its belly. Might have indeed entered a flat spin.
What do you mean?saps wrote:I guess the concept of flat spin would not arise in conventional control aircraft like IJT.
You are right that a concentrated debry-field could have been from a nose dive. But generally you won't see the plane as a lump. As it goes nose first the pressure is much higher and it completely disintegrates the plane. you wouldn't have seen a lump of metal. Also if the plane is nosediving it would be a recoverable maneuver if there is enough height.saps wrote:But even though if it was in normal spin the debris would still be concentrated in very small dia...post impact.
Whats the take of gurus on this.. ?
I am no expert - but I think there are situations in which any aircraft can get into a flat spin (I vaguely recall reading that/hearing that somewhere).saps wrote:
Well i meant that as far as my understanding goes....IJT cannot get to such AoA that when it enters spin it would get into a flat attitude. AFAIK the attitude in spin would be dependent on drag and that in turn would depend on the AoA at entry. So this logic defeats the idea of IJT flat spin.
Any corrections to the thought process, welcome.
Flat spin is not about AoA. It is about stalling and yawing. In a spin, both wings are stalled, one is stalled more deeply. this generally happens if there is yaw command just as the plane is entering the stall. So if your plane can go beyond the critical AoA of the wings, then you can certainly enter spin. Once in a spin, your ability to bring the nose down so that you can bring the wings below critical AoA would determine whether you can recover from the spin or not.saps wrote: Well i meant that as far as my understanding goes....IJT cannot get to such AoA that when it enters spin it would get into a flat attitude. AFAIK the attitude in spin would be dependent on drag and that in turn would depend on the AoA at entry. So this logic defeats the idea of IJT flat spin.
Any corrections to the thought process, welcome.
So, not an IAF chopper.A Pawan Hans helicopter of the Border Security Force crashed in Sirohi district of Rajasthan on Friday killing the pilot and three others.
Weren't Pawan Hans flights stopped till further notice after AP CM chopper crash?Gaur wrote:^^
As per your CNN-IBN link:A Pawan Hans helicopter of the Border Security Force crashed in Sirohi district of Rajasthan on Friday killing the pilot and three others.
That is a brilliant story. It takes a great deal of courage to admit one's mistakes to the public and great erudition to explain complexity so a lay person can understand it.Abhibhushan wrote:An old tale about destroying an aircraft on the ground
I hope they do and why not, that's the least that can be done isn't it? If we just say "RIP brave soul", "So long courageous brother" and leave it at that, these crashes will continue... as they have. The only way things are going to improve is when questions are raised, issues debated and people made accountable publicly. People have been hiding behind the veil of 'National Security' and 'red tape' for too long. Let BR members of the respective cities have a signature campaign and let's go hold a demonstration outside an airbase. We need to make the concerned people know that (like a phrase in Malayalam) there are people to question and talk... or another mother will soon get a box full of burnt flesh and a photo on the wall and people will just type sympathies on a blog and forget about it... till the next crash.Dmurphy wrote:Now wait for TOI to carry a front page article on "What ails the IAF?" and how unprofessional they are at maintaining aircrafts with comparisons drawn to US, Pak and China.
Dude, I have to say this, but I mean no disrespect. The 21's are really old, so olde that I put an 'e' after old. I don't think spares are even made for the versions before the Bison upgrade. Sadly, these aircraft are the mainstay of the IAF and it has to remain that way until the MMRCA winner comes online and the Tejas hit the production line. Have faith in the mechanics and the standards of the IAF, they are doing the best they can with what they have. Here in Canada, our Sea Kings are being held together with Duct Tape, its that bad.saje wrote:I hope they do and why not, that's the least that can be done isn't it? If we just say "RIP brave soul", "So long courageous brother" and leave it at that, these crashes will continue... as they have. The only way things are going to improve is when questions are raised, issues debated and people made accountable publicly. People have been hiding behind the veil of 'National Security' and 'red tape' for too long. Let BR members of the respective cities have a signature campaign and let's go hold a demonstration outside an airbase. We need to make the concerned people know that (like a phrase in Malayalam) there are people to question and talk... or another mother will soon get a box full of burnt flesh and a photo on the wall and people will just type sympathies on a blog and forget about it... till the next crash.Dmurphy wrote:Now wait for TOI to carry a front page article on "What ails the IAF?" and how unprofessional they are at maintaining aircrafts with comparisons drawn to US, Pak and China.
We at BR don't say 'RIP Brave Soul' for the heck of it. It pains each one of us to lose a courageous warrior, whether it is in peace or war. Do you hear the papers say that? The thing we don't like is not about crashes being reported or making safety important. It has more to do with papers ranting and frothing at the mouth with misguided and factually incorrect articles everytime an aircraft goes down. It may be something like a pic of an LCA in a MiG 21 crash or something on the lines of 'There have been so many crashes...', a random statement that seems to indicate planes are dropping like flies.saje wrote:I hope they do and why not, that's the least that can be done isn't it? If we just say "RIP brave soul", "So long courageous brother" and leave it at that, these crashes will continue... as they have....
This is really weird. Aircraft crashes 50 km from the air base. That means it was up and flying alright. Wonder what went wrong - although the satellite pics of India show monsoon clouds all over so weather and disorientation are possible esp if there was some sort of exercise/training session in blind flying with simulated instrument failure or something going on.Dmurphy wrote:Jaguar fighter aircraft crashes, two killed
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 321766.ece
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Judging from past experience it will be pilot related issues or maintenance/overhaul issues.ramana wrote:Could the Jag crash be due to fatigue or sabotage?
No one is getting touchy here and what our papers write is not a 'hint' of criticism. This is not the first time this has happened and won't be the last time. And yes, you are welcome to disagree with my post. I'll end it at that.Sandipan wrote:We can argue about stupidity of an individual journalist but getting touchy at a mere hint of criticism of defence forces is unwarranted.
Source:http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_la ... ts_1572745Lack of trainers takes toll on young pilots.Published: Friday, Aug 5, 2011, 8:30 IST
A Jaguar fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed on Thursday in UP’s Gorakhpur, killing the pilot, Flight Lieutenant S Pandey, and a farmer.
Pandey was on a training sortie when the aircraft spun out of control and crashed killing a farmer on the ground and then sunk into a nearby pond.
This was the second major accident for the IAF in a week. Flight Lieutenant MS Pillai died in a training sortie while flying a MiG 21 in Nal, Bikaner, on Tuesday.
Sources in the IAF headquarters told DNA that evidence available in both accidents pointed to a case of pilot error.
“It is too early for us to draw any conclusions but in both cases, these were young pilots with about 40 hours of flying behind them,” a senior air force official said.
According to him, the Jaguar pilot was flying at a low level and had completed a series of maneuvers when he suddenly did a hard turn and the aircraft spun out of control.
“We are still trying to locate the FDR (data recorder) of the aircraft, which will have all the details, but we are guessing that the pilot lost control.”
The MiG-21 crash also occurred in similar circumstances when the pilot was on a low-level flight and suddenly lost control and crashed into the ground.
The initial investigations have revealed that there was no defect in the upgraded MiG-21 “Bison” thus narrowing down the cause of the accident to “pilot error”.
Both crashes come within days of the induction of the new chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne who is a Jaguar pilot.
Sources close to Browne told DNA that the air chief was extremely disturbed and was looking at training schedules of the rookie pilots to prevent such accidents.
IAF trainee pilot Flt Lt S Pandey, who tragically perished in a Jaguar ground attack aircraft crash yesterday, was on a low-level navigation syllabus sortie from the Gorakhpur Air Force Station, and was accompanied by a senior pilot in chase in another Jaguar. Flt Lt Pandey had been on a simulated attack run at ultra low level (below 300 feet to avoid radar) from initial point to target, completed in roughly 2.5 minutes. However, the pilot missed his target, the reasons for which will be part of the court of inquiry. His chase instructor radioed in asking him to turn back and redo the attack manoeuver.
Now the normal drill during such training is to pull up to at least 500 feet, turn around, descend at your initial point and go back for the sim attack. Tragically, for reasons still unknown, Flt Lt Pandey began turning around at less than 300 feet, bleeding altitude all the while. The investigation will look into several human and technical factors. Of the latter, the possibilities include an inexplicable breakdown of the entire (or parts of the) flight control system, including the auto-stabilizer system or pitch trim controller, both overwhelmingly critical at such low altitude where reaction time is wafer thin.