The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

[krisna]

From twitter@AmiSri. TIFWIW.

>>Varun Gandhi to present Anna's Lokpal Bill in LS timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/news/Va… @varungandhi80

He said he will table it as a private bill.

[Muppalla]

Potential or new or whatever. It is listed under BJP camp. And it must have been put for a reason. Why not put JJ with INC, then?

The probability of JJ going with BJP are high as compared to INC. The biggest reasoning being that she could be the PM candidate if BJP gets less than 160 with some one from BJP in Dy.PM. BJP does not trust Nitish for giving a grand NDA PM ship.

If BJP goes down then she has all the reasons to jump to INC if they accept.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Few things going on - Both Anna and BR are not as independent as it is made out to be. Both have propups from both INC and BJP.

The sequence could be:

(1) Massive corruption exposes occured due to CAG and internecine INC wars (Radia tapes etc.)
(2) Civil societies and religious inclined societies got enraged at the fearless loot of the nation
(3) INC master know that there will be backlash and was well prepared for it.
(4) INC also knows that by-rule-of-thumb the voters' swing due to anger will be to the opposition
(5) The plan for INC may be to block this anger to a different basket so that opposition will not have the advantage
(6) Instead of ignoring the uprising, INC may have tried to use the Anna and BR movements to create that basket for the swing
(7) In that persuit INC did talk to both Anna and also BR using their highest level folks such as Pranab, Chidu and others
(8) BJP and RSS knew the game
(9) RSS did infiltrate into BR to a significant extent while a token extent in Anna. INC infiltration in BR is not significant.
(10) INC has handle over Anna's folks while BJP has handle over BR folks
(11) In both Anna and BR campaigns the protest is against INC government and hence it is at a disadvantage from a perception perspective. However, its gut feeling is that its vote base (Dalits+Muslims+Adivasis+vested interests) is intact (there is aLensOnnews survey to concur regarding no base shift). It is only trying to control the oppostion votes by directing which votes to go to which section. All INC needs is that the anti-incumbancy or swing vote is in "Trishanku state" to win and become UPA-3.
(12) It will be advantage Congress party in case either Anna or BR or both launch political parties. It will be serious disadvantage to opposition if congress is successful in creating this basket.
(13) The drama of going overboard on Anna is to enrage the followers and create a basket in the process
(14) The brutal destruction of BR is due to analysis that dividends from BR's party will be too less and also risky in case it goes in allaince with BJP.
(15) Initial thoughts of using BR is to divide the OBC votes of BJP in UP.

On a parallel side (with very little/no media coverage) few significant events occured:
(1) BJP declared that there will be no PM candidiate from either BJP or NDA for 2014 election. Modi Vs. rest bait in being taken. It will also keep partners like Nitish in good humor while potential new partners are possible.
(2) BJP announce UP election team that does not consist of Rajnath Singh or Varun
(3) There is an invisible coup by the mid-level popular leaders of BJP over the Advani gang.
(4) RUMOR from Twitter - Supreme Court may be not allowing current EVMs for next election unless EC comes up with a traceable paper trial mechanism.


My hunch is that BR will do a Part-2 of his Yoga classes in September/October in Delhi after Anna's dharna ends to neutralize congress upmanship via RSS.

[SaiK]

If amma takes PM ship, Obama will have pajama shiver.

[RamaY]

Good analysis Muppala garu.

I doubt AH can sustain the agitation for next 2 years. I think INC is well positioned to continue in power till 2014 with few cabinet reshuffles.

It is interesting that some of the christian groups showed their cards against AH, so early in the game. Is this an indication of early elections?

What is MMS's game? When will he complete his mission? What will happen if he steps down now? Re-elections are Yuvaraj or some other seat warmer? Why not step down and force yuvraj to make a choice? If he takes the bait then yuvraj will be out in 2 years instead of a full 5 yr term

[SwamyG]

Muppalla garu: Thanks for your explanation. Sad to hear BJP does not have a PM candidate of its own. JJ is predisposed to join BJP, but in politics anything can happen and she could align with INC. I was wondering about your reasons. If she does not commit any major faux paus, she will be sitting on a very comfortable position when it comes to 2014 GE. INC or BJP will have hard time negotiating with her, and she will extract her ounce of flesh. JJ as PM, wow MuKa will go crazy.

[Hari Seldon]

JJ being what she is won't give up her CMship of TN even if and when she becomes the PM of India. Only.

[RamaY]

SwamyG garu,

I dont think BJP doesn't have a PM candidate. They have many.

I think the strategy is to keep the options open as it would result in media going gung ho on NM vs RG, which is unnecessary.

Muppala garu, what is the probability of BJP winning simple majority if it declares NM as their PM candidate?

[Theo_Fidel]

I think JJ has already shown her high handedness. At least in Chennai support for her is already withering, esp. as she hasn't done anything about the power crisis. In 2 year she will as usual get her mid term beat down in the GE.

Also don't understand what AH's end game is. Yes I hear the institute lok pal thing, but large chunks 60%+, of corruption is consensual. How does one end that portion.

[Muppalla]

^^^
BJP winning simple majortiy is ZERO. It is not even in contest for more than 250 seats. My hunch is NM is still the PM candidate though not declared for tactical purposes. Declaring three years ahead "we do not have a PM candidate" is suspect and just some tactical stuff under the current psy-ops based proxy wars.

[RamaY]

Also don't understand what AH's end game is. Yes I hear the institute lok pal thing, but large chunks 60%+, of corruption is consensual. How does one end that portion.

AH can address 30% of corruption at max.
Parliament will have to address next 30% thru policy and law
Final 40% has to be addressed BR way only.

[SwamyG]

Theo: Seriously, you expected her to solve the Power Crisis by now? How many days has it been since she won the elections?

[kshatriya]

I beg to differ. Infact it is the other way around. May be her support is withering ****[edited]
You also predicted a massive DMK win b4 the elections.

I think JJ has already shown her high handedness. At least in Chennai support for her is already withering, esp. as she hasn't done anything about the power crisis. In 2 year she will as usual get her mid term beat down in the GE.

Also don't understand what AH's end game is. Yes I hear the institute lok pal thing, but large chunks 60%+, of corruption is consensual. How does one end that portion.

Edited to take out potential flame. Wont give warning as this is first time.

[SwamyG]

Muppalla: I do not know if AH is a INC plant or mole; or was created as a distraction by INC. I am yet to have the gut feeling or suspicion I had when Chiru was thrust into limelight. So I have no opinion on it yet - am cat on the wall. However, for argument sake if one admits he has been influenced by INC - the kind of support he has had now is unprecedented. "Times Now" reported the nation has seen nothing like this since Independence. Benguluru had more than 10,000 people joining the protests. Small towns and big cities are joining the protests. People from diverse cross section of the society - rich, poor, religious, irreligious, educated, uneducated are lining up streets or going to some maidan. Once the dominoes start to fall, can it be controlled? If elections were held in September. INC is doomed. However since the elections are in 2014 (onlee), INC can still get away with all these.

Once the arrows have left the bow, how much control can be exercised?

[Muppalla]

Muppalla: I do not know if AH is a INC plant or mole; or was created as a distraction by INC. I am yet to have the gut feeling or suspicion I had when Chiru was thrust into limelight. So I have no opinion on it yet - am cat on the wall. However, for argument sake if one admits he has been influenced by INC - the kind of support he has had now is unprecedented. "Times Now" reported the nation has seen nothing like this since Independence. Benguluru had more than 10,000 people joining the protests. Small towns and big cities are joining the protests. People from diverse cross section of the society - rich, poor, religious, irreligious, educated, uneducated are lining up streets or going to some maidan. Once the dominoes start to fall, can it be controlled? If elections were held in September. INC is doomed. However since the elections are in 2014 (onlee), INC can still get away with all these.

Once the arrows have left the bow, how much control can be exercised?

I am NOT convinced that AH is a congress mole though there are several presentations. However, his team is a suspect and he may not have control over his team and he is an icon being used. INC has infiltrated but I don't want to call AH as a mole.

10,000 in Bangalore or Delhi is what? Tell me when the crowd is equal to what Jagan got in a small hamlet of AP. It is all about how media carries it.

Even in case assuming that AH is really a force in India now there are two things he needs to address. He has to sustain it until 2014 and importantly he has to give a political color to it. He has to launch a political party or assoaciate with a political party.

If AH does not launch a political party or associate with an existing one then the maximum advantage will go to BJP. Period.

[Jarita]

From twitter@AmiSri. TIFWIW.

>>Varun Gandhi to present Anna's Lokpal Bill in LS timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/news/Va… @varungandhi80

Wonder why there is such an IQ difference between the two cousins. Varun better get some security

[Theo_Fidel]

Not sure if even 30% is possible through criminalizing corruption. You can't end some, leave other corruption in place and fix this problem.

The person who bribes the minister to get a Teacher job is utterly desperate. The hawker on the street who bribes the cop to squat on the pavement. Do we send the cops and judges to round up the poor wretches and toss him/her in jail. The minister is expected to hand out Rs5000 to each voter at elections or he won't be elected. In India corruption has always been endemic in the lower levels for a long time. It is a symptom of what our society is.

A single days complaints, assuming they are all reported, will take the lokpal years to get through.

We are not the first to go through this problem. The USA used to be massively corrupt in the 1930's and before, still is in some parts. The French were renown for theirs, the Italians and Spanish were in a league of their own. All these countries have improved dramatically, though I'm sure quite a bit remains. The question is how. While Italy had the anti-mafia trials none of them had the need corruption courts. The other question is how places like Switzerland and Germany & Scandinavia were always renown for their lack of corruption.

While we are on the topic of legislation, wasn't the prime motive for the RTI act to end corruption. It more or less works as intended and yet here we are again. Does this mean that was another useless piece of law.

[vijayk]

http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?278032

The Congress party has suddenly discovered a new threat in "Civil Society" — not just to its own existence but, by hyperbolic extension typical of the party from the days of "Indira is India" mindset— to the Indian democracy and stability of the Indian state. Therefore it is busy marshalling all its resources to draw a Lakshman Rekha which defines "thus far and no further" limits for "Civil Society Organizations". For this it has succeeded in mobilizing an influential section of intellectuals by using the specious plea that "sinister" forces such as the BJP/RSS are behind the anti corruption movement, thus justifying high handed, authoritarian methods to crush the anti corruption movement. (For a critique of this smokescreen used by the Congress see Divide And Rule)

The term "Civil Society" has a longer history but the nomenclature "Civil Society Organisation" (CSO) is of recent vintage. For example, a Google search for a definition of the term "Civil Society", would take you to the definition and legitimacy provided by the World Bank which uses the term CSO as almost synonymous with the term NGO (Non Governmental Organisation).

Earlier the very same organizations were known as Voluntary Organizations or VOs which worked to implement the "development" agenda of donor agencies for the supposedly "under developed" third world countries.

The VOs were renamed NGOs at the behest of donor agencies because they could not possibly justify giving large salaries to those who claimed to do "voluntary" work in the "development sector" because the latter term has the connotation of work done as an unpaid service for society. However, in the last decade, VOs turned NGOs adopted yet another identity at the behest of their funders. This time, it was the World Bank, that took the lead in giving them their new name and claim -- Civil Society Organizations (CSOs).

Most of the non-government members of the all powerful National Advisory Council (NAC) have been members of influential NGOs/CSOs. Their legitimacy comes primarily from the fact that they were handpicked by Sonia Gandhi as her personal advisors. When questioned about the legitimacy of NAC, Congress spokesperson Manish Tiwari is on record saying:

"NAC members are constructive but Anna Hazare's team is the destructive face of CSOs."

Why then this sudden fear of and discomfort with the "Civil Society" mobilisation by Anna Hazare and his team? The annoyance and fear this group evokes is not just because some of their prescriptions are impractical. If that were the criteria, many of the laws thus far enacted at the behest of NGO's would be in the waste paper basket. They have become an irritant not because they are less "civil" but because they have tapped a much larger constituency of citizens, including the influential and articulate middle and upper middle classes in India. Most NGOs can't mobilize more than a few hundred protesters. But with the joining in of Baba Ramdev and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, the scale of participation in the anti-corruption movement had shot up phenomenally. For the first time, after the JP-led movement in the 1970s the Congress party is confronting a mobilised citizenry capable of influencing its electoral fortunes.

Today, neither the BJP with its internal disarray, nor any left party is in a position to offer solid opposition to the Congress led government because their track record is no better than that of the Congress. But the anti corruption movement is capable of inflicting a serious dent into the Congress party's vote share. That is why Congressmen are panicking.

The message is clear: NGOs/CSOs, who serve the Congress party's interest, either overtly or covertly, are "constructive" and therefore welcome. Those who don't are to be treated as predators and deserve a suitable drubbing. For this loyalty test the Congress Party has set simple criteria-assurance of obsessive, aggressive and incessant BJP and Modi bashing no matter what the occasion, no matter what the issue-because the Congress party knows it can ride back to power only if voters believe BJP is even worse than the Congress.

By taking recourse to patently undemocratic means such as the illegal arrest of Anna Hazare and his team members or the midnight commando operation against Baba Ramdev, Congress party is ruining whatever is left of its heavily damaged credibility and actually adding strength to the anti corruption movement by bringing in even those who had some reservations regarding the over arching legislation proposed by Team Anna. This is a live example of "Vinash kaale vipreet buddhi.

[vijayk]

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?278027
Divide And Rule

1.Challenge the legitimacy of Team Anna on the ground that self appointed representatives of civil society are arrogating far more power that they deserve and that they are undermining the role of elected representatives.
2. Challenge the personal credibility of Anna Hazare and the prominent leaders of the anti corruption movement Prashant Bhushan, his father Shanti Bhushan, Arvind Kejriwal and the softest of all targets--Baba Ramdev on the basis of half truths and exaggerations. This is to create a sab chor hain syndrome--an atmosphere in which everyone appears a cheat or a thief. It is done with the expectation that people will then say, “Well if everyone is a thief then let us stick it out with the tried and tested thieves in the Congress party.”
3. Challenge the political credibility of the anti corruption movement by projecting it as a BJP/RSS inspired communal conspiracy against the supposedly secular Congress and by implication against the “nation“. Congress party stalwarts Digvijay Singh, Jayanti Natarajan and Manish Tiwari have led the chorus in alleging that both Ramdev and Anna Hazare are political tools of the RSS and BJP. Shabnam Hashmi, a leftist supporter of the Congress party, went a step further to polarize the situation by justifying the vengeful crackdown on Baba Ramdev’s followers saying the police had definite information that the RSS and VHP intended to set the pandaal on fire with a view to roasting alive the gathered protesters and create mayhem in order to provoke a post- Godhra like communal riots all over India.

One of the most ludicrous arguments used by Digvijay Singh to Team Anna as an RSS instigated group was that the stage on which Anna Hazare sat on his fast had a portrait of Bharat Mata (Mother India) in the backdrop and that slogans such as Bharat Mata ki Jai and Vande Matram were repeatedly used in the Jantar Mantar protest rally. Mother India was the popularly accepted presiding deity of the freedom movement. Almost every Congress leader, including Nehru and Gandhi, used the image of Mother India to convey the message that just as a mother loves all her children equally and does not discriminate between her children, so also Mother India bestows equal love and care on all her children--be they Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, higher or lower caste. Mother India or Bharat Mata thus became a symbol of inclusive nationalism, of equality and brotherhood. As per this worldview, each community is supposed to have the same claim on Mother India thus striking a deep emotional chord and providing cultural sanctity to the Fundamental Right to Equality promised in the Indian constitution. Similarly, Vande Matram was as much a slogan of the freedom movement as Jai Hind. A.R. Rehman was inspired by that historic legacy, when he composed his inspirational song: Maa Tujhe Salaam -- an Urdu version of Vande Matram.

In its desperate attempt to cover up its role in numerous communal riots, the Congress Party is handing over many of the positive cultural symbols of the freedom movement to the BJP on a silver platter. The colour saffron for instance is associated with sacrifice, martyrdom for noble causes. It symbolizes Hindu and Sikh spiritual heritage. Bhagat Singh went to the gallows singing of his “Basanti Chola (saffron robe).”

[SaiK]

Plugging loopholes would be an all aspect AoA on anti-corruption. 90% of India's corruption happens by not establishing and practicing process that does not carry these loopholes that aids criminals and corruption mongers. We may find many supporters for anti-corruption, but what remains otherwise is a herculean dracula strength of corrupted officials, system, and people who have enjoyed this corruption, that they have no merit to even consider anything like supporting AH.

From basic corrupter like aam admi who pays bribe for everything and happy to get his everyday job done to kalmadi and kings who swindle in lightning year billions, all have gotten mutated life with corruption. Jailing them till death will be the only fear that would work to correct the society.

[VinayB]

Even in case assuming that AH is really a force in India now there are two things he needs to address. He has to sustain it until 2014 and importantly he has to give a political color to it. He has to launch a political party or assoaciate with a political party.

If AH does not launch a political party or associate with an existing one then the maximum advantage will go to BJP. Period.

Without doing either, he can be used to diffuse the effect of INC's corruption before 2014 so that opposition particularly BJP does not benefit from it. Before this fast, leading news was BJP taking up CWG CAG report. Now that coverage is gone, and no word on Delhi CM. Today BJP brought up issue of Haryana land allotment to RG trust in parliament, no coverage.

INC gives you jan lokpal. All corruption before jan lokpal is blamed on the lack of jan lokpal (except Yeddy, Jagan and those not with INC). Before lokpal, everyone was corrupt. INC gave you lokpal. move on.

This argument will win with a lot of jan lokpal supporters, BTW. And at an opportune time, secularism can be brought back again to keep them either away from polling booth or vote INC for the good doctor or the prince.

And 'internet hindus' on twitter etc are all uniformly wary of AH.

INC strategy on AH (and BR too) is tuned to getting max media coverage.
1. when BR went on fast, internet hindus cribbed that media coverage was much less than AH though crowd was larger. Midnight crackdown changed that.
2. AH could have been allowed the second fast. Arrest before the fast and images of Tihar got 100x coverage.

Now the news coming out is about the mechanics of the fast - where, how long etc. will we ever get any coverage of 2G or CWG again?

[vijayk]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/anna- ... on/833853/
Anna fights enemy; Bapu tried to reform him: great-grandson

Mahatma Gandhi's great grandson Tushar has said there is a difference in the way the two leaders have used fasting as an instrument of protest.

He feels while for the Mahatma, fasting was a means to “reform an adversary”, in the case of Hazare, a self-professed Gandhian, it was like targeting an “enemy”.

“Hazare's fast is different because Bapu's fast was to reform an adversary into a friend, while Anna's fast is against an enemy. It is like a me versus you kind of thing,”

Tushar Gandhi told PTI.

“Hazare has become an icon of the desperation being felt by the people in India. However, there is an element of populism in the movement,” he said.

Is this the same guy who was rejected funding by MMS for Gandhi foundation? Why doesn't he speak about it openly? Instead, he is taking an indirect potshot at Anna.

[SwamyG]

Muppalla:
Jagan is still riding his father's charisma. And a politician visiting a town or city will draw crowds no doubt. So I would not compare AH and Jagan heads on. I am guessing more than 10,000 people have turned up for other yatras, morchas and dharnas too. I have not read or heard about such turn outs earlier.

Are you saying the crowds through out the country is somehow manufactured or too little and that media is making a mountain of a molehill?

[Muppalla]

SwamyG:
Crowds of 10,000 in a city of > 40lac is peanuts. Delhi, Mumbai, B'lore are all same. We have this media and constantly looking outwards folks for camparisions started calling these as some arap springs.

[RamaY]

Not sure if even 30% is possible through criminalizing corruption. You can't end some, leave other corruption in place and fix this problem.

The person who bribes the minister to get a Teacher job is utterly desperate. The hawker on the street who bribes the cop to squat on the pavement. Do we send the cops and judges to round up the poor wretches and toss him/her in jail. The minister is expected to hand out Rs5000 to each voter at elections or he won't be elected. In India corruption has always been endemic in the lower levels for a long time. It is a symptom of what our society is.

A single days complaints, assuming they are all reported, will take the lokpal years to get through.

The transfer requests can be automated in the sense that an employee puts a Xfer request and it can be viewed by anyone. The system will assign the slot based on availability (assuming there must exist a vacancy in the target place). By taking human intervention in such thing one can reduce the corruption to major extent. The current problem is this. I want to go to a specific place/post and I use my contacts to get that done. The guy who is getting replaced will have to find a place of his choice and the domino effect creates exponential corruption opportunities. Of course I am not talking about exceptions.

The minister will not hand out Rs 5,000 per vote when he doesn't have money; which he thinks he can recollect once he gets elected. We need not create unnecessary chicken-egg situations.

By making the fines very little amounts like Rs1 or 2 but make the process painful like giving them a challan and make the to attend a special court we can remove unnecessary Cop/Judge harassment for petty scenarios.

No one situation fits all. We need to approach the problem with open mind and apply process, technology, common sense and sever punishment as necessary.

JMHT

[Muppalla]

Even in case assuming that AH is really a force in India now there are two things he needs to address. He has to sustain it until 2014 and importantly he has to give a political color to it. He has to launch a political party or assoaciate with a political party.

If AH does not launch a political party or associate with an existing one then the maximum advantage will go to BJP. Period.

Without doing either, he can be used to diffuse the effect of INC's corruption before 2014 so that opposition particularly BJP does not benefit from it. Before this fast, leading news was BJP taking up CWG CAG report. Now that coverage is gone, and no word on Delhi CM. Today BJP brought up issue of Haryana land allotment to RG trust in parliament, no coverage.

INC gives you jan lokpal. All corruption before jan lokpal is blamed on the lack of jan lokpal (except Yeddy, Jagan and those not with INC). Before lokpal, everyone was corrupt. INC gave you lokpal. move on.

This argument will win with a lot of jan lokpal supporters, BTW. And at an opportune time, secularism can be brought back again to keep them either away from polling booth or vote INC for the good doctor or the prince.

And 'internet hindus' on twitter etc are all uniformly wary of AH.

INC strategy on AH (and BR too) is tuned to getting max media coverage.
1. when BR went on fast, internet hindus cribbed that media coverage was much less than AH though crowd was larger. Midnight crackdown changed that.
2. AH could have been allowed the second fast. Arrest before the fast and images of Tihar got 100x coverage.

Now the news coming out is about the mechanics of the fast - where, how long etc. will we ever get any coverage of 2G or CWG again?

This is possible. Since AH & BR sagas started there is no real coverage Supreme Court proceedings, or more investigative stuff or any details of other corruption in media. Huge huge distraction.

However, INC's lokpal will not cut ice with the mad-mad angry folks at this time. The mood has changed. Hence I think it is not possible to diffuse it away from angry result. That is where INC needs to create some political outfits out of AH to get the result it wants.

[IndraD]

congress faces its Kandhaar

http://www.dailypioneer.com/361778/Cong ... dahar.html

The UPA Government has shown a fundamental weakness and a lack of political finesse. How long before others exploit it? This doesn’t necessarily mean a series of copycat fasts. It just lays bare the Government’s essential vulnerability


People don’t turn against a Government, much less come out on the streets, over any one issue. It is usually a combination. In this case, corruption — especially egregious and publicly visible corruption in the form of the Commonwealth Games swindle — has been complemented by inflation, economic uncertainty and a sense of listlessness in the UPA regime

Some of its spokespersons — including at least one Minister — come across as loud and obnoxious on television, unwilling to listen to anything but their own voices.

anna message from tihar

This has a deep impact on fence-sitters and just normal people, those without an ideological position on the Jan Lok Pal Bill.

The ‘Anna versus Congress’ story was a replay of David versus Goliath:

[RamaY]

Is this the same guy who was rejected funding by MMS for Gandhi foundation? Why doesn't he speak about it openly? Instead, he is taking an indirect potshot at Anna.

Good point. Gandhi's grandson need not be gandhi-like. He doesn't want to see many Gandhis, otherwise he would lose his social status.

[Pranav]

(1) BJP declared that there will be no PM candidiate from either BJP or NDA for 2014 election. Modi Vs. rest bait in being taken. It will also keep partners like Nitish in good humor while potential new partners are possible.

It seems that the BJP central leadership (i.e. Advani coterie) does not want Modi to become PM. However, if they announce a PM candidate other than Modi, nobody would vote for them. So the best policy for them is to keep the PM candidate undeclared. Modi would then be pushed aside at the right time, perhaps with the help of he secularist brigades.

[SwamyG]

SwamyG:
Crowds of 10,000 in a city of > 40lac is peanuts. Delhi, Mumbai, B'lore are all same. We have this media and constantly looking outwards folks for camparisions started calling these as some arap springs.

Peanuts or Brazilian nuts, when was the last time such people came forward in such huge numbers?

[IndraD]

Cong suffers damage in hands of spokespersons suffering from foot in mouth disease

Other than M Tewary, R Aliv it was Renuka Choudhry passing comment (on why Rahul is silent on AH issue)-"He will speak when he feels like… Woh tota nahin hai (he is not a parrot)" ( )

Differences within govt on engaging Hazare

While the security establishment apprehends larger public mobilisation from Friday, top UPA leaders feel there is no need to engage with him on the lokpal issue as fatigue will soon hit the anti-corruption movement.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Unruly-cr ... 34865.aspx
Unruly crowd create nuisance out side Tihar

There was something different in the air outside west Delhi's Tihar jail . A public service announcement of sorts, advising people related stories to "take care of (their) belongings as pick-pockets have already targeted at least four people", rang in the air even as a surging crowd of Hazare's supporters, mainly school children, mobbed and subsequently molested a female television journalist.

"They're just here to indulge in anarchy," said Neeta Sharma, 23, an MNC executive who rushed to the area with her colleagues to support Hazare but had to face lewd gestures and comments from a group of uniformed, government school boys who were waving tricolour flags but chanting obscene slogans

[SaiK]

Anna Party could be a futuristic green party, where only the selected will get elected. Now, Anna must bless that vision.

That may perhaps happen after downing of the evil forces at helm, and further evil cleansing happens.

We need those people out on the streets to get this moving and happen. It is for the health and wealth of 1 Billion.

--

I sincerely hope people don't buy this eyewash strategy of con-angrez apologizing and doing a daamij kantrol exercise.. they will be back with the evil forces set to be dormant just to take a quick nap, and get those loopholes strengthened for furthering the evil activities.

rooting out corruption must begin.

[BijuShet]

-- deleted as Ramanasaar moved his original post--

[Theo_Fidel]

So is AH the Indian Tea Party.

He needs to have a proper plan to move forward.

RamaY,

We must start somewhere, so point taken.

But let me remind you this entire transfer/open job posting business was started as a means to stop corruption. You know same guy, same place, long time problem. So we have people from Bihar scrambling for a clerk post in Madurai who then try to bribe their way back to Bihar. Sure we can put yet another complicated system in place, people will find a way around it. The people are hell bent on shortcuts as their life often depends on it.

As long as it takes 6 years to get a water connection and 4 years for a sewer connection and 20 years to get a job from the job board and connections to get a simple railway ticket 3 days before travel, you are going to have corruption. No amount of lokpals will fix the situation.

There is one section of India where corruption has vanished into the night. Phone/Cellphone service. Used to be that it was the most corrupt and bribe generating section of India. It almost smells like Jasmine now compared to other sectors. There is a lesson in this somewhere...

[Rudradev]

SwamyG:
Crowds of 10,000 in a city of > 40lac is peanuts. Delhi, Mumbai, B'lore are all same. We have this media and constantly looking outwards folks for camparisions started calling these as some arap springs.

Peanuts or Brazilian nuts, when was the last time such people came forward in such huge numbers?

I agree with SwamyG. People coming forward is the key word here.

Of course it is possible for Congress, BJP, BSP or anyone else to manufacture crowds of 1-2 lakhs by providing buses and organizing hordes of underemployed/unemployed to come out via party machinery and monetary inducements. That is not the point.

The point is 10,000 people in many cities are coming out for AH, voluntarily. No one is paying them to do it (if there is any proof that they are being paid or herded into vehicles by party workers, I would like to see.)

It certainly appears that people, many of them middle class and educated, who have jobs or classes to attend, are instead taking the time and effort to come out and support this agitation. For better or for worse we shall see, but it is happening.

Some people on this forum may not be impressed by that, but it is far more frightening to politicians to see 10,000 people voluntarily marching, rather than 2 lakh berozgaar being paid to march.

I don't think anyone has offered this much inspiration for mass mobilization since LK Advani 20 years ago. As far as I can see it seems to be happening across a much wider swath of society and nation this time around.

[IndraD]

No political party agrees to AH version of bill

AH bill is unlikey to pass through LS. Though political parties have used AH to cause discomfort to the govt no one is on AH's side as far as bill is concerned.

“Nobody can dictate to Parliament...he [Mr. Hazare] has had his say before the standing committee [considering the Lokpal Bill], and he must have confidence in Parliament and await the outcome,” said D. Raja of the Communist Party of India. Legislation must be enacted by Parliament; it cannot be made in Ramlila Maidan or J.P. Park,” he said

BJP president Nitin Gadkari and parliamentary leaders Sushma Swaraj and Arun Jaitley have also questioned the idea of Bills being made on the streets by any group, however well-meaning they are. Ms. Swaraj said as much on the floor of the Lok Sabha. The party also said that while it had problems with the government's draft, it was not in agreement with the ‘Jan Lokpal Bill' either.

Ram Vilas Paswan of the Lok Janshakti Party took Mr. Yechury's argument further. “Tomorrow, if some leader or party were to create a view among the Hindus that the Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and members of other religious minorities must be disenfranchised, should Parliament be compelled to pass such a law?,” he asked. He also pointed to a major flaw in the ‘Jan Lokpal Bill,' under which the Lokpal would be investigator, prosecutor and judge.

Sitaram Yechury of the CPI(M) was even more forthright. He strongly differed with Team Anna's demand. “How can that be? There is a constitutional scheme of things; a legislative process that cannot be abandoned

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 370253.ece

[RamaY]

NVS Article on AH and how it is used by INC/BJP and others

Its Politics

17 August 2011: If you are a dynast or a lawyer in the power game, you could never understand politics. Both the Congress and the BJP do not understand politics, which is why they are helpless in the face of the dramatic rise of the Anna Hazare movement. The one politician who does understand politics and has, therefore, unsurprisingly supported Anna Hazare is Nitish Kumar. Nitish Kumar is neither a dynast nor a lawyer. He will go places.

There cannot be a more privileged Indian dynast than Rahul Gandhi. Although he had no hand in the early release of Anna Hazare from detention, the slavish Congress machinery is already making him a hero, a line willingly toed by some newspapers. But that is irrelevant detail. The big story is Rahul Gandhi will never be PM, not unless he gets over the fright of the job, which he will fail anyway. You cannot get to be a bigger dynast than Rahul Gandhi. But the way to the top is still closed for you, or the summit scares. The Gandhis of today do not understand politics.

So the Gandhis hide behind lawyers, and the Congress party is chock-a-block with lawyers. There is smarmy P.Chidambaram who nobody believes any longer. His 2009 election stands challenged in court. Then Arun Shourie called the other Congress hotshot counsel, Kapil Sibal, a buccaneer in print. And there is Manish Tewari, who has no notion of political decorum. This band of dynasts and too-clever lawyers is running the Congress party -- and running it rapidly to ground.

The BJP is scarcely better. One of its prime-ministerial aspirants is Arun Jaitley. He has never fought a Lok Sabha election so you cannot say for certain he will ever win one. That nevertheless does not preclude him from getting the top job in the fashion of Manmohan Singh, but Manmohan Singh cannot be anyone's ideal today. Jaitley knows no politics, and, worse, appears not to care. This is the result of having journalists as advisers. Jaitley is part of the status-quoists in the BJP who hope to ride the Anna wave to power in 2014 or earlier.

Trouble is being status quoist (which a grounded politician never is) won't assist either Jaitley or the BJP. The Jaitley/ BJP position broadly is that the executive can push the most perverse bills through Parliament and only civil society's right to protest cannot be curbed. The party which appears increasingly to be lead by lawyers (see the fate of Pakistan, a nation brought into being by a deceitful barrister) fails to answer some obvious questions. Who elects Parliament? It is not the MPs, surely. And who backs the Anna movement? Not some foreign power, even though the Congress may expect you and me to believe that. The people are behind Anna, and the same people elect Parliament.

Therefore, like it or not, Parliament has to engage Anna and his team that have come to represent the people presently. (The fact of mid-term election upsets in the US suggests no government can claim to be solely representative for its entire term.) Public opinion manifestly is against the UPA, the most corrupt government since Independence. It cannot be trusted to fight corruption, and its version of the Lok Pal is an affront to the Indian people. The BJP cannot take refuge in narrow constitutionality. It cannot think it can leech on the Anna movement even while preserving the present order for its advantage. Only a party of lawyers would scheme so shamelessly, and fail without knowing why.

In a sentence, the BJP has to get back to basics. It has to shed its lawyers and commence learning politics all over again.

If politics had prevailed, the system would have gained by Anna Hazare. The UPA correctly made the Anna team joint drafters of the Lok Pal bill initially. The Indian state is famed for politics. Politics is the core reason for its survival despite the multitude of contradictions. Politics heals. There is no call to believe that an agreement between Anna's team and the UPA couldn't have been reached. The PM has to be under the Lok Pal. The judiciary has to have another independent oversight institution. This is what will eventually happen. It cannot be stopped. The UPA and Anna's team could have easily agreed on this, provided the UPA had honourable intentions, which it didn't.

So where does it all lead? The bare minimum that all of India expects of any Lok Pal law has been set out in the earlier paragraph. Any party that can deliver that gets India's vote. This is the clear message from the spontaneous nationwide support for Anna Hazare's mission. Any political party and any political individual that understands politics will immediately grasp this message. As this writer sees it, only Nitish Kumar today is fully alive to Anna Hazare's politics. If Nitish Kumar remains the only one to be honestly engaged with democratic politics, he will sooner than later get India's vote.

What did NK, w.r.t AH, do to get so much praise?

[RamaY]

Ram Vilas Paswan of the Lok Janshakti Party took Mr. Yechury's argument further. “Tomorrow, if some leader or party were to create a view among the Hindus that the Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and members of other religious minorities must be disenfranchised, should Parliament be compelled to pass such a law?,” he asked. He also pointed to a major flaw in the ‘Jan Lokpal Bill,' under which the Lokpal would be investigator, prosecutor and judge.

This is interesting... RVP is trying to out do Mr Karan Thappad

[ShauryaT]

As long as it takes 6 years to get a water connection and 4 years for a sewer connection and 20 years to get a job from the job board and connections to get a simple railway ticket 3 days before travel, you are going to have corruption. No amount of lokpals will fix the situation.

There is one section of India where corruption has vanished into the night. Phone/Cellphone service. Used to be that it was the most corrupt and bribe generating section of India. It almost smells like Jasmine now compared to other sectors. There is a lesson in this somewhere...

Absolutely.

1. Devolution of powers to local governance so that local services can be managed and executed locally (empowerment)
2. Separation of the executive from the legislature at all three tiers of government (accountability)
3. The government should not be in the business of business (disinvestment/reforms)

The above three are the mantras for an effective governing structure and, what India currently needs.

[ShauryaT]

The point is 10,000 people in many cities are coming out for AH, voluntarily. No one is paying them to do it (if there is any proof that they are being paid or herded into vehicles by party workers, I would like to see..

My 75 year old father goes daily on a small march in our mohalla, along with 25-30 others, in support of AH. I have not seen him with a check!

The relatively smaller number compared to political rallies is not due lack of popularity but due to the fact that most of these urban dwellers have to go to work. For every one on the street supporting Anna, there are 1000's at home, who are in support and not on the street. The crowds in a political rally are not sustained over days and the type of people coming there are, well, I think they do not have anything better to do.

[abhishek_sharma]

From The Urdu Press

The Anna effect

Several Urdu papers have displayed circumspection and wariness about Anna Hazare’s movement, and some have sharply articulated their unease.

Mumbai, Kanpur, Bareilly, Lucknow and Delhi-based Inquilab has lashed out at Anna’s cheerleaders. Tushar Gandhi, the great-grandson of Mahatma Gandhi has been quoted on the front page: “Anna Hazare camera ke peecche bhaag rahe hain (Anna Hazare is chasing cameras). The real purpose of the movement is to defeat the government.” The paper has conducted interviews with some prominent Muslims, who conclude Anna’s movement is “backed by communal elements and is an attempt to ruin the atmosphere in the country.” The interviewees say that “corruption will not be removed by these types of protests and demonstrations, but by generating an environment in the country against corruption.”

Delhi, Mumbai, Lucknow and Dehradun-based Sahafat has written a tough editorial titled ‘The bubble of Anna Hazare’s campaign’. It says Anna Hazare violates the Gandhian spirit and principles. The paper says that “when the MNS’s Raj Thackeray was busy sending non-Maharashtrians out of the state, Hazare supported Thackeray and even issued a statement in his favour.” The paper harks back to the stand taken by some influential papers during the anti-Mandal riots in 1991, who were opposing reservation for the backward classes, and were “90 per cent of the 15 per cent of the population.” The paper alleges, “these are the same people who said no reservation, only merit then.” Hitting out further, Sahafat is of the view that “the RSS is backing this to distract from its purported links with terror being unearthed.” The editorial concludes that “some unelected people cannot be given preference over an elected Parliament.”

Hyderabad and Bangalore-based daily Siasat on August 17 covers the police picking up Hazare. The editorial is titled: ‘The non-serious action by the Centre’, and comments on how the Centre is “more concerned about cracking down on Hazare’s protest rather than cracking down on corruption.”