Pakistani Minorities - Should India Feel Responsible?

[RajeshA]

There is only one Catholic Church, and that is the Roman Catholic Church. so as I see it 2 of those denominations are now part of the Catholic Church.

Yes, as you see it!

The Goans were not proselytized by the Thomas Christians. The Goans were proselytized by the Portuguese.

Anyway this is all OT here. The Goans in Pakistan can be eligible for Indian citizenship based on the delayed accession of Goa into India. They may be eligible for Indian Citizenship based on their Goan origins, and not because they are Christians.

[RajeshA]

I have been to the church in Chennai where the tomb of St Thomas is displayed. I dont know if its actually him in here, but I have seen whats is supposed to be his burrial place

Legend has it that in year 232 A.D., the remains of St. Thomas were taken from Mylapore, Chennai to Edessa, Turkey.

[Pranav]

OT but this St.Thomas being interred in Chennai is now acknowledged everywhere to be a myth.
Please do not confuse the Thomas Christians with the apostle

I have been to the church in Chennai where the tomb of St Thomas is displayed. I dont know if its actually him in here, but I have seen whats is supposed to be his burrial place

See this book, written by a former Christian priest - http://apostlethomasindia.wordpress.com ... ran/posts/

Just setting the record straight, nobody is saying that Goan Christians are any less Indian than anyone else.

[RajeshA]

Pranav ji, thanks for sharing that link! Very informative!

[Agnimitra]

So we have a civilizational responsibility towards the Hindus and Sikhs who were left behind. This civilizational responsibility does not extend towards the Pakistan Christians however except may be to Thomas Christians.

RajeshA ji, I voted a very tentative "yes". I think "civilizational responsibility" cannot be discussed merely in terms of an attic-room mentality of a collection of historical sects and cultural products, their provenance and other labels. Instead, we need to define some "civilizational medium" that is more abstract and common, and which can encapsulate and carry anyone who wishes to join, as long as they make the effort to learn and use it. We need to have a medium that uniquely captures the best essence of the Indic spirit. The chosen medium also needs to be flexible and agile enough to meet modern day needs. Moreover, the more articulate and refined the chosen medium of identification is, the more points the immigrants themselves will find to identify with the land of asylum.

One example of such a medium would be affinity created through a chosen common language, or a popular mythology articulated in many languages. Our core values would need to be imprinted in that language or narrative. As a simple hypothetical example, assume that educated Indians are required to learn Sanskrit, revived under the guidance of an enlightened body of experts. Then, anyone wishing to join India is required to learn that language. Having done so, when they learn and understand their own doctrines or cultural themes via education in this Indic medium, it will still be within the purview of our civilization and may even expand and enrich it.

OTOH, historical cultural sects and products from the same land can often be politically problematic to the nation-state, while obedient and grateful minorities given asylum can become political and socio-economic assets. History bears this out everywhere, including in India, both, in recent history as well as times long gone.

So before India can dream of masses of Paki minorities begging for asylum, we need to have clarity and formulate a medium for our identity as a civilization state. That will be good for internal consolidation as well as external accruals and expansion.

[RajeshA]

Carl ji,

you present a model of integration. I think what you propose has a lot of merit, however for such a model of integration to work, it needs to be defined first, not just on paper but as part and parcel of our polity. This is something that has not been done, and I don't expect it to be done so soon.

Secondly the State has to control the process of integration completely. In my view, we would not really be able to control this sufficiently simply because we neither have the will nor the resources.

Right now, the Pakistani Christians would be let in, given some papers and told to go find a place for themselves in India. They are given to protect their identity. If they can protect their identity in Pakistan, then protecting their identity in India would not be difficult. One part of their identity constitutes close relations with certain quarters in the West - in USA, in Vatican, etc. The other part of their identity is Pakistani, and they would be carrying over these traits as well. You can't be living in Pakistan for so long and be immune to the milieu there. It is to be expected they would re-start their proselytization activities in India as well and cause social tension.

We would not be doing any integration. Moreover these Pakistani Christians would not be bringing any real estate along with them. They will be coming empty handed, so India would have to come up with all the resources.

[ramana]

Long term visas are sought for Pakistanis of Goan origin.

Similar is the case of a number of Goans, most of them, over 65 years of age, who want to come back to their homeland for good.
We should allow their repatriation, on compassionate grounds.

I am just curious. What were Goan Christians doing all this time in Pakistan?

Either they would be Goan Muslims, if there are any such who migrated to Pakistan who would want to return, in which case they should be considered the same way Mohajirs are treated from Gangetic Valley. Or they are just Christians local to that region and have nothing to do with Goans, in which case Goa, or any other part of India should not feel responsible for them.

From 1946 onwards some Goan Christians were very much opposed to Indian independence and till 1962 Operation Vijay, Goa was a shelter for TSP activities. The TSP folks would land in Goa and skip into Maharastra and run away across the border. At time of 1962 Op Vijay, a very strenous critique of India was made by Pak based Goan origin folks. The journalist Tony Mascernhas who exposed the TSPA activities in East Pakistan was of Goan origin. These people went willingly to TSP and in addition have not showed any remorse for their anti-India activities.

People in India asking for long term visas for these folks are only looking for pappi jahppin like the WKK in North India. ITs not based on religious persecution.

On the other hand the dalit Christians face religious and social persectuion. I would support the visa regime for dalit Christians so they can escape the TSP Harab.


*** BTW I met a Goan origin TSP person in late 80s who was vehmently opposed to the idea of India. So the hate is still there.

[Rahul M]

I thought goan christians are eligible for portugese citizenship ? after all they rejected India for a foreign country, even pakistan. they should stick to that or petition the portugese govt. people who by their own admission disliked India should not be taken back just because they found the going tough at their chosen places.

edit: to clarify, I mean those who chose pakistani citizenship by choice, not by circumstance.

[Muppalla]

NO. Any religion other than Hindu, Sikh,Jain, Budhism and other off shoots of hinduism are all guest religions irrespective of the secular spin that folks may put by referring to a non-event such as St.Thomas visit. These guest religions are given equal footing because of the culture and sanskar of Hinduism. Any thoughts beyond that are ridiculous.

If we have to worry about christians in Pakistan then we have to worry about Christians in Libiya. India has to draw a line.

[Rahul M]

So are some of you guys trying to imply that I as an Indian Goan Christian am in any way less Indian than my Hindu or Sikh brothers, and therefore my relatives should not have the option of returning to India?

Boscoe, are they saying that ? really ?

should my relatives in bangladesh (yes there are a few left) automatically qualify for Indian citizenship just because I am Indian ? and if they don't it implies I am less Indian than some others ? what kind of logic is that ?

while there are goan christians who got stuck in pakistan due to circumstances, there are many more who chose pakistan over India and even went as far as to decry India and Indian nationhood in the international media. I am sorry, we owe nothing to these people.
even those who apparently got stuck in pakistan, would they realize that fact only after so many decades ?

[Agnimitra]

*** BTW I met a Goan origin TSP person in late 80s who was vehmently opposed to the idea of India. So the hate is still there.

I've met some Paki "dalit" Christians. Reasonably friendly, but definitely infected by Pakistaniyat as far as their idea of "India" and "Hindus" goes. Of course, its probably less culpable than the willfully anti-Indian choices made by the Goan Pakilovers you described.

I wonder to what extent the psychology leading up to the process of defection and asylum cancels out past culpability, and how that inversion can be maximized.

[sanjaykumar]

I have observed some Goan Christians passing themselves off as Portuguese.

You can imagine their consternation when they learn that whites have not considered the Portuguese white people since Moorish times.

[Ravi Karumanchiri]

Here's another out-of-step thought....

What ever happened to judging each case on its own merits?

I never meant to suggest that just because some persecuted Pakistani is a Christian, that he/she should be given asylum in India so that Indians could be converted or subverted or whatever. That's not what I had in mind. Rather, I was trying to convey the idea that religion should be left out of the consideration as to whether or not to grant a persecuted Pakistani some kind of refugee status.

What should count -- on moral grounds -- is the danger/persecution they have faced. If they are going to get up to no-good once they're in India, then even that shouldn't matter, and certainly, refugee status can be stripped, if someone causes harm to their asylum state; they can and should be expelled.

Yet, there can be no denying that it is possible these people might be of some useful service to India and Indians, even if they don't have real estate. (One might hope they have other assets or talents or education, or connections -- but even this shouldn't matter if someone is genuinely in danger in Pakistan.)

There is no moral basis for turning a blind eye to someone in danger. If it's purely an economic consideration, then say so. Don't try to make the case that India doesn't owe it to them because they're not of an Indic faith. That would be un-dharmic.

Just don't try to devise a rational policy that grants blanket coverage to an entire group of people who are defined in religious terms. Judge each case on its own merits. Give asylum to people who are in danger, if they won't cause harm to India or Indians. Make it a condition of their asylum that they are not to engage in political or communal activities, such as religious conversions, and if there really are no funds for resettlement, then so be it.

[paramu]

Pakistani Goan christians chose Pakistan at the time of partition (and when Goa merged with India). No need to show sympathy for their plight when they did not care about India. As humanity concern, India can help them raise their issue in UN, nothing more.

[Prem]

I believe in using every possible available tool to widen the mighty hole in Poak Mushharraf.Tools are tools and they must be made aware of hand yielding them is of the Boss and man of the House. If they start taking time and Takkas in repair then they must be dumped in bin locked with welded pin. Those who pledge to be Indians in true sense can be granted protection from Poaqasurs and Bawkasurs while rest become the Bhojan of Baki Bewakoofs.

[ramana]

Prem. Think clealy about my suggestion. Its an appropriate tool.

In the book "to the frontier" Geoffrey Moorhouse, the author describes the lives of the Haris and Christians in TSP. They live a very hunted life and are more deserving of living in India then the RAPE rascals. I have more empathy for them then the RAPE.

[vina]

What sort of precedent is this ? A voluntary migrant community from India (Goa and Kerala) wants to have a "right of return" from Pakistan ? Why should India allow it ? What will prevent the Mohajirs from UP, Bihar, Bengal and every other part of India demanding similar treatment. What if Altaf bhai and his followers demand it and UP /Bihar raised that in their assemblies supported by Mayawati and Lalloo and Nitish, citing the Goa and Kerala precedent ?

India's support should be only for the persecuted communities in Pakistan and Bangladesh which were originally part of undivided India and who had no role in voluntarily choosing like the Mohajirs and Goans and Kerala Moplas did.

This is clearly vote bank politics at work. But notice however, that it is only long term visas and not citizenship. I hop it is given ONLY to folks who were born long ago in India , are close to kicking the bucket and want to spend the last days of their life here. No way, the kids born in Pakiland to these Goans and Moplas should be given that kind of privilege.

[negi]

What do we Indians smoke to be high on sentiments all the time ? India has more than enough mouths to feed within her territory and has it's hands full with domestic issues where does this question of moral responsibility towards minorities in another country comes from ?

[Philip]

We will certainly grant ALL Paki refuges a safe homeland in India provided they come along with their territory (Sindh,Baluchistan,whatever)!

[vishvak]

What do we Indians smoke to be high on sentiments all the time ? India has more than enough mouths to feed within her territory and has it's hands full with domestic issues where does this question of moral responsibility towards minorities in another country comes from ?

If I am not mistaken, there are 750 million poor Hindus in India, may be more. Why then not focus on poor Hindus too? Do we have extra resources if there are so many poor Hindus( where else are so many poor Hindus) in the world?

In global village, Hindus are the poorest lot.

[RajeshA]

From 1946 onwards some Goan Christians were very much opposed to Indian independence and till 1962 Operation Vijay, Goa was a shelter for TSP activities. The TSP folks would land in Goa and skip into Maharastra and run away across the border. At time of 1962 Op Vijay, a very strenous critique of India was made by Pak based Goan origin folks. The journalist Tony Mascernhas who exposed the TSPA activities in East Pakistan was of Goan origin. These people went willingly to TSP and in addition have not showed any remorse for their anti-India activities.

People in India asking for long term visas for these folks are only looking for pappi jahppin like the WKK in North India. ITs not based on religious persecution.

On the other hand the dalit Christians face religious and social persectuion. I would support the visa regime for dalit Christians so they can escape the TSP Harab.


*** BTW I met a Goan origin TSP person in late 80s who was vehmently opposed to the idea of India. So the hate is still there.

ramana garu,

initially my reaction was how can India offer Pakistani Christians privileged access to India. I am still of the same view, however in the case of Goans, I've now changed my opinion.

I am of the opinion that India should give Pakistani Goans a choice - not because they are Christians but because they are of Goan descent.

When India was partitioned in 1947, Goan Pakistanis who were living in Karachi continued to live in Karachi, and they did not opt to come to India. They had their lives there. They did not come to India, because India was not their home. Their original home was in Goa, which was still a Portuguese colony, and was not part of India. When India took over Goa after Operation Vijay in 1961, Goan Pakistanis were kind of "caught" outside Goa, and thus outside India.

So the principle that is at work in the case of Goan Pakistanis, is whether when some region accedes to India, if India should offer the diaspora of the acceding region, the offer of Indian citizenship or not. That is especially the case if the acceding region had "soft-borders" with some other region, where the diaspora lives.

I think India should do so, as a means of consolidating the Indian nation.

Those Goans who decided to emigrate from Goa after 1961 after Goa became part of India, say to Portugal, made their decision when they faced a choice. They do not have any right of 'return'. Just like Pakistani Mohajirs do not have any right of return. They made their choice in 1947.

I am aware there were and still are many Goan Christians, who were anti-India and still are. I myself have met one such Goan. They probably used to identify themselves with their Portuguese masters and thus imbibed the feelings of the latter towards India and Indians. They probably came to 'love' Pakistan on the principle of "enemy of my enemy is my friend"! This is legacy from a time when many Goan Christians used to identify Goa with Portugal.

Today however Goa is part of India, and the big majority of Goan Christians too identify themselves with India. The Goan diaspora in Pakistan, which considered their interests to be aligned with those of Pakistan, now find themselves on the opposite sides of the fence to their 'brethren' in Goa who are Indians. Besides Goa is their ancestral place, so the feelings in that place would determine their worldview as well, in which case they are living in enemy territory and calling it home. Of course, Karachi being their home for generations, they would still have some soft spot for it. Also being citizens of Pakistan, they would have to show some semblance of loyalty to it as well, if they wish to still be tolerated.

The point remains, that after 1961 Goan Accession to India, Goans in Pakistan should too have been given the offer of Indian Citizenship. I assume this was not done.

That is why, I am of the opinion that India should do it now. It is the unfinished business of Goan Accession to India, which was 50 years ago.

Those who reject it, and decide to stay in Pakistan, should then be treated as Pakistanis, deserving of no further privileges - be it long-term visas, asylum, refuge or naturalization.

Those who do accept Indian citizenship, would have to leave Kurrachee behind, and move to India.

As it seems, the Goans in Pakistan happen to be well-to-do people, so they would have the resources to build their own lives in India.

[Luxtor]

After all these years and all that everybody has come to know about pukistan, any minority that continues to live there deserves what they get from the puki muslim majority. Why would any minority ever live in a country that is based on religion and has the offcial name of islamic republic? Even that name is inaccurate. Only islamic is correct, pukistan never materialized into a republic, the puki elite only pretended to be one. In contrast to this reality the puki's always tried to hoodwink the world by pointing out that minorities were in key position in government etc. Remember during mushyrat's dictatorship he tried to publicize a puki hindu "supreme court judge" as an example of puki tolerence and that minorities could rise to high positions in puki society? I had a nice belly laugh when this puki hindu judge tried to visit India in service of mushyrat's propaganda and he was man-handled at the Wagah border by Indian border guards when he tried to throw his weight around. They treated him like a no body, he didn't have his papers in order or something. This guy took an oath allegiance to mushyrat's illegal rule. Any other judge that didn't comply was booted out. Wow, some country this pukistan is. So my thought is any minority still lives in pukistan, let them stew in this filthy juice that is pukistan.

[Luxtor]

We will certainly grant ALL Paki refuges a safe homeland in India provided they come along with their territory (Sindh,Baluchistan,whatever)!

I support this proclamation. No free lunches. If you want refuge from puki atrocities, then you have to do something in return for us.

[Prem]

We will certainly grant ALL Paki refuges a safe homeland in India provided they come along with their territory (Sindh,Baluchistan,whatever)!

I support this proclamation. No free lunches. If you want refuge from puki atrocities, then you have to do something in return for us.

Ironically , this will disqualify Hindus and Sikhs escaping from Poaq Prison.
Like Rajesh, i have very bitter, almost poisonous experience with a GOAN RAPE. Assuming him as fellow Indian, i did not realize the underlying hositility and contempt till late and it almost effected my family well being. Lucky for him , he moved out of area. OTOH, long time ago I had Goan Girl as business coleague and she was as Indian as any one.

[chaanakya]

When the Ruler of Hunza Regretted Joining Pakistan

Washington DC, DC
Monday, August 29, 2011



The former princely ruler of Hunza, Mir Ghazanfar Ali, has expressed regret over state-led terrorism and injustices in Pakistan controlled Hunza and announced a long march towards Gilgit city if the four dozen or so arrested IDPs were not immediately released. He said, ""We oppose the decision to establish seven security check posts between Karimabad and Aliabad. Hunza is the most peaceful area of Pakistan and these check posts are going to make it look like a war-zone".

On August 29, 2011 security forces arrested four more innocent residents from Hunza in connection with IDP protests. Sad enough that the security personnel, who are responsible for the extra judicial deaths of two innocent IDPs, still remain at large and enjoy freedom under government protection. Among the arrested is a 17 year old orphaned minor from Gulmit who was later released when his older brother presented himself to the police as his replacement.

Meanwhile, the president of the Hunza chapter of Pakistan Peoples' Party (the ruling party in Gilgit-Baltistan) has resigned protesting unwarranted detentions. He has accused the security personnel of barging into the houses in the Holy month of Ramadhan and violating religious sanctity as women have been harassed and manhandled.

The arrests of innocent IDPs are being made under sedition and anti-terror acts. The IDPs continue to agitate for immediate relief and rehabilitation. Majority of them became homeless after a massive landslide displaced thousands of residents of Hunza in January of 2009.


Senge Sering
Institute for Gilgit Baltistan Studies
Washington DC, DC
202 689 0647

[BijuShet]

Xpost from Minorities in TSP dhaga
From Tribune news (posting in full).
Hindus still tied in knots over marriage registration

By Zahid Gishkori - Published: September 19, 2011
Hindus say denial of legal matrimonial recognition leads to the denial of other basic rights.
ISLAMABAD: The largest minority in Pakistan is struggling to register marriages due to chronic delays in the passage of the Hindu Marriage Act. The draft bill, proposed in 2008 but yet to be tabled before parliament, seeks to address the decades-old problem faced by the Hindu community in Pakistan, which numbers approximately four million.

In Pakistan there is no system for the registration of marriages of certain minorities, including Hindus, Sikhs and Baha’is. There is, however, marriage registration for Christians.

(Read: Legislation underway – Minorities to have their own marriage laws)

“These are not the best of times for us as we face stiff resistance from the government on the issue,” said MNA Dr Araish Kumar. The government and some Hindus do not see eye-to-eye over the controversial divorce clause. “How can we allow the inclusion of a divorce clause as there is no concept of divorce in our religion?” Kumar said. “Hindus will get Computerized National Identity Cards (CNIC) if the bill gets passed,” he said, adding that Pakistani Hindus often face difficulties when travelling abroad due to a lack of a marriage certificate.

Clause 13, the controversial passage of the proposed 16-page bill, states that any Hindu can divorce his wife or her husband at any time and in any court.

Various conditions have been proposed for divorce proceedings. The new draft empowers any court to entertain any petition for the legal dissolution of a marriage. Various other rules have also been mentioned in the bill, such as when divorcees may marry again, the legal rights of children, void and voidable marriages, the punishment of bigamy and punishments for other contraventions of Hindu marriage laws.

The draft also described practical ramifications of divorce cases, such as the content and verification of petitions, custody of children, ownership of property and savings, and repeals.

Minister pushes for bill

“Our first priority is to get the Hindu Marriage Act passed at all cost,” said Minister for National Harmony Akram Masih Gill in an exclusive interview with The Express Tribune.

He admitted that the divorce clause remains a bone of contention between the government and Hindu community. However, the minister is optimistic a consensus can be reached on the issue after taking all stakeholders into confidence. “I will go to every extent for rights of minorities,” he said. “Marriage Registration Acts will be prepared for all minorities.”

(Read: Love hurts – Hindu couple marries outside press club as a sign of protest)

He added that the government had sought the opinion of Hindu community leaders from Hindu Panchayat (Karachi Division), Nagarparkar in Tharparkar and Rahim Yar Khan, who drafted the bill for marriage registration based on the Indian model.

Sikh concerns

Sikh community leaders have dispelled the impression that this bill can also be applied to marriage registrations of Sikhs based on the Indian model. “We will introduce separate bills for marriage registration of Hindus, Sikhs and Bahai’s,” said Gill, who has decided to summon a meeting of all lawmakers and representatives who represent minorities to pave the way to table the bill in parliament.

“How can this proposed act be applicable for us as our customs are totally different for performing marriages,” said Swaran Singh, a senior member of Pakistan Sikhs Gurdwara Parbandak Committee.

Pointing out differences, he said: “Hindus take seven lavans (name of hymns) while we take five lavans for performing marriages. Hindus also take fire or pitcher [matka] while Sikhs recite from Guru Granth Sahib (the Sikh Holy Book). The male leads in the Sikh religion but a woman in the Hindu religion.”

(edited by imran yusuf)

Published in The Express Tribune, September 19th, 2011.

[SBajwa]

by Vishvak
f I am not mistaken, there are 750 million poor Hindus in India, may be more. Why then not focus on poor Hindus too? Do we have extra resources if there are so many poor Hindus( where else are so many poor Hindus) in the world?

In global village, Hindus are the poorest lot.

The richest land mass in world is India., why?

1. It is protected by high peaks to the north from icy winds and snow.
2. Rivers all over the Indian subcontinent had kept it a very fertile place from last 5000+ years.
3. People from all over the world have flocked to this area to get rich (Alexandar, Arabs, Turks, Persians, Portuguese, French, English, Dutch, etc) by exporting/importing spices and etc.

(British were moving so much out of Calcutta, India to London, Britain that one street in Calcutta is made out of the earth (mitti, sand) of london as the returning empty ships needed some weight.

Then despite the area being so rich from last 5000 years the $64,000 question is that why the people who have been living the longest in this land are the poorest? They should be very very rich (in fact richest in world) due to accumulated wealth over generations from last 5000 years!! am i right or not?

The simple answer is that the Hindus of India are poor because they have not been able to defend their money, land or women.

[SBajwa]

and only way to alleviate poverty is to

Defense allocation to be directly proportional to the economic growth

i.e. if we have 10% increase in our GDP then increase defense allocation by 10%.

India should have at least 25% of all its young (18-25 men and women) trained in hand-to-hand combat.