India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 21 Sep 2011 10:55

It is a big problem if TN sours on nuclear stations. The PFBR and MAPS are also in TN IIRC, and would be next on the list of installations targetted.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 21 Sep 2011 11:10

Theo_Fidel wrote: I'm always baffled that the same people who condemn the UPA and its corruption and rail against PSU's find the AEC pure as the driven snow..

Theo-ji; if I may; the answer has following parts

1) AEC was in the past seen as primarily a small underdog, which was not really into commercial activities but more a small dedicated band of scientists and strategic sector folks.

2) Its footprint and impact was small and not widespread, so community issues were limited.

3) Trust for "institutions" to not have "commercial" or "political" bias (good middle class Indians don't do wrong unless forced by political masters)

The above factors lead people to "believe" AEC et al. Over UPA, the problems being when it is felt that the separation between institutions and political motives are destroyed.

Consider it a hang over of older nicer simpler India.

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 21 Sep 2011 11:51

Theo_Fidel wrote: I'm always baffled that the same people who condemn the UPA and its corruption and rail against PSU's find the AEC pure as the driven snow..

Theo ji,

This is the present composition of the AEC -a governing body with less then 50% comprising 'dedicated scientists'

. It will be nice if you could point out which of these folks' motives / patriotism is in doubt and the reasons thereof? Or is the AEC's motive as a whole being suspected? Also, I found your 'will it be allowed to be built in Japan' indicator particularly baffling. By that logic we should shut down our domestic PHWRs as well? - since they won't qualify for the Japan test either. do you agree?

The present composition of the Atomic Energy Commission for the year 2011 is given below:

Dr. Srikumar Banerjee,
Secretary to Govt. of India,
Department of Atomic Energy
Chairman

Shri V. Narayanasamy,
Minister of State, Prime Minister's Office
Member

Shri T.K.A. Nair,
Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister
Member

Shri Shivshankar Menon,
National Security Advisor
Member

Shri Ajit Kumar Seth,
Cabinet Secretary
Member

Shri Ranjan Mathai
Foreign Secretary
Member

Shri Sumit Bose,
Secretary Dept of Expenditure
Member

Shri V.V. Bhat,
Secretary to Government of India
Member
Finance

Prof. C.N.R. Rao, Honorary
President, Jawaharlal Nehru Centre for Advanced Scientific Research, Bengaluru
Member

Dr. M.R. Srinivasan,
Former Member(Energy) Planning Commission & ex-Chairman AEC
Member

Prof. P. Rama Rao,
ISRO Dr. Brahm Prakash Distinguished Professor, Chairman BRNS & Former Chairman Atomic Energy Regulatory Board
Member

Dr Anil Kakodkar
Former Chairman, AEC and Homi Bhabha Professor
Member

Dr R.K.Sinha
Director, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre
Member

Dr R.B. Grover
Principal Adviser, DAE
Member

Shri Arun Srivastava,
Member, Strategic Planning Group, Scientific Officer-H, DAE
Secretary

Incidentally, here is the 1958 GOI resolution (introduced by Nehru), which laid out the role and mandate for the AEC

http://www.aec.gov.in/resolution.pdf

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 21 Sep 2011 12:34

"Would this reactor design qualify to be built in Japan?" The answer is No

More bullshit. Even if you were the lord almighty or my best friend, I'll still call it that. Comprende?

KKNP-I would pretty much be certified in Japan if the evaluation was purely technical. It is no worse than the CE system 80 + family that is the harbinger of Toshiba's and KEPCO's present generation. And I have already outlined its back up passive RHRs which even the APR-1400 would be proud of.

Countries that have operated BWRs should have no issues with a nicely designed PWR like the VVER at all. The only concern about Post FSU Russkiland is the build quality, which gets taken care of when you put in enough time and effort albeit at somewhat bloated cost.

And DAE has ensured that, which is why this project has taken such a long time. The Russian nuclear industry went through just so many consolidations and diversifications that NPCIL was left with no choice but to wait out the whole thing patiently.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Sep 2011 12:51

I concur with Chetak and SS.What needs to be done at KKM is to educate the public in a transparent effective PR campaign that this N-plant is a new modern design not of the Fuku type,etc.There seems to be an insidious attempt to derail the nation's N-plans at work as well in this case.What about existing N-plants too? They are of earlier designs and surely they too have a risk factor which needs to be assessed and rectified if indadequate.Why is Medha Patkar not squatting outside tarapur or the US embassy for not removing the N-waste?
There is more to this agitation than meets the eye.TN is also a state that is facing a crippling power shortage thanks to the mismangement of the energy sector by the DMK.Is there another factor ,that of the building of extra Russian plants at the site while there is a re-examination of the designs and lcoations of the sites reserved for the French and US N-plant suppliers? What are the true undercurrents?

The genuine fears of the populace has to be taken into account and they need to understand that every care has been taken ,even after the Fuku disaster to see that the KKM plant is safe.This threatens to spiral out of control if not handled sensitively ,especially in the era of "fasts".It also brings into sharp focus the entire N-power strategy in the light of Fuku.Germany has gvien up on N-power and Siemens now say that they no longer will manufacture N-plant components.When the N-deal was being debated in thehouse and on BR ,many critics asked why we were not pursuing as a priority our indigenous efforts at establishing FB plants given our large resources of thorum,etc. and why a holistic atitude was not being adopted giving a thrust to the use of other non-polluting renewable sources of energy like wind and solar power.

It is imperative that this crisis is resolved and fast.It imperils our entire N-power plans for the future for both routes,indigenous and foreign.N-power can be safe if adequate safety measures are taken and sites located in non-earthquake/natural disaster zones.The "head honcho",Dr.MMS himself who was the most ardent advocate of the N-deal should make this issue his top priority to resolve the it satisfactorily.Therefore ,a team of eminent N-scientists,present and former must also accompany any political emissary to reassure the locals that the N-plant is safe.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 21 Sep 2011 12:57

hey are of earlier designs

more than 80 per cent of all power generating reactors today are essentially "earlier designs". They all started from the naval reactor propulsion units pushed by people like Rickover.

Another thing that a lot of people don't understand is about the siting. That part of TN is home to some of the greatest wind generation capacity in the world. Due to the associated problem of intermittency power quality in southern TN is abysmal. KKNP will allow the stabilization of the grid by providing much needed round the clock base load power besides which will actually allow even greater penetration of wind turbines in the future. although most of that new wind capacity will be offshore.

And by the way, both Turkey and KSA are seriously looking at VVER-1000 and 1200. The 1200s come with core catchers and will probably be constructed as KKNP-3 and 4.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Sep 2011 13:17

I meant the entirety of the design,extra safety measures included after Chernobs and Fuku,lacking in earlier plants.However,the GOI must get its act fast and remedy the situ by sending a special team post-haste to TN to elighten and convince the new 'old" Queen of the state and her populace.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Sep 2011 13:57

Theo_Fidel wrote:
chetak wrote: Ask and ye shall always find the fine hand of motivated, foreign funded and poisonous NGOs in all nuclear related "protests".
Kindly request you not make such wild allegations without proof. Don't go down that path based on religious labeling, this way lies madness....

Sanku,

I'm always baffled that the same people who condemn the UPA and its corruption and rail against PSU's find the AEC pure as the driven snow. Despite long evidence of incompetence and failure to perform. Cognitive dissonance if ever there was one. In Japan too despite the numerous warnings issued the failure of Government agency after Government agency the assumption was that the Nuclear establishment was incorruptible and flaw free. Tragically in an emergency the Nuclear authority collapsed.

I have absolutely no doubt that in a true emergency our Nuclear authority will collapse as well. To try and start Koodankulam, which is larger than a dozen of our other plants put together in such an environment is arrogance and overconfidence.

Theo_Fidel ji,

Not making wild allegations saar.

The opposition in the northeast and in Andhra against uranium mining is primarily foreign funded and specific agenda NGO based. Both sites are under the heavy influence of the same people stirring up much of the trouble in the northeast and everyone knows where that lot comes from.

The Atomic energy department itself is wondering how to counter this propaganda as they are being made to fight with one hand tied behind the back.

Wonder why furriners don't want us to mine uranium?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 21 Sep 2011 17:04

It is good to see that now people are talking about transparency and educating public in Nuclear field. Investment, new technology and requirements are all very fine , but when it concerns generations of lives , people have to be educated and assured ( not as in empty assurance) . We have seen in Fukushima crisis that conduct of Nuclear Industries and experts are far from exemplary, in fact it is downright contemptuous of concerns of those who are potential Nuclear refugee in their own land. I am still to see what lessons have been learnt by Indian Nuclear Industries ( now that it is poised to go commercial in a big way and perhaps another nuclear scam in the offing from CON party) and how those lessons are implemented except some perfunctory steps taken halfheartedly.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 21 Sep 2011 18:05

Still awaiting the news of the reactor going critical!

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 21 Sep 2011 19:01

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 31307.html

Kudankulam impasse ends
PTI | 06:09 PM,Sep 21,2011

Chennai, Sep 21 (PTI) The 11-day hunger strike against Kudankulam Nuclear Plant ended today after the Tamil Nadu government promised to pass a resolution at the Cabinet for halting of the project even as the Centre sought to allay fears over safety.The end to the agitation came during a meeting between a delegation of the core group of protesters and Chief Minister J Jayalalithaa here."The Cabinet will be convened on September 22 and it will adopt a resolution (urging the Centre) to not to go ahead with the works on the plant site till the people's fears are removed," a state government statement said.Assuring the delegation that she would talk to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on his return from the US on September 27, she said a delegation headed by Finance Minister O Panneerselvam will also submit a memorandum to him, it said. "The Chief Minister has requested us to call off the fast and we are doing it," S P Udhaya Kumar, Convener of People's Movement against Atomic Power, spearheading the stir, told reporters while announcing end to the hunger strike.Kumar said despite withdrawal of their fast, "we will continue to keep up the pressure on the Central Government" to scrap the project, set to be commissioned in December, a decade after the work on it began.The stir ended after Prime Minister's emissary, Minister of State in the PMO V Narayanasamy, met protestors in Tirunelveli District yesterday. He briefed Jayalalithaa this morning besides conveying Singh's message on the issue to her.Narayanasamy assured her on behalf of the Centre that there would be no compromise on the safety aspects of the project, an official release said in New Delhi.He briefed the Prime Minister about his talks before Singh left for New York, it said.

Chetak,

There is only sporadic protests in AP, mostly for jobs. Meghalaya is different, the main question there is what NPCIL will do with the Tailings. It has not been able to answer that question.
If that is your approach what about Baba Ramdev, who gets quite a bit of his donations from Abroad. Do we then accuse him of having ulterior motives and darkly hint at his being anti-national for taking on the Government. Or for that matter the Arya Samaj in Arunachal that is bitterly opposed to dams. As I said, this way lies madness.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 21 Sep 2011 23:29

Philip wrote:I concur with Chetak and SS.What needs to be done at KKM is to educate the public in a transparent effective PR campaign that this N-plant is a new modern design not of the Fuku type,etc.There seems to be an insidious attempt to derail the nation's N-plans at work as well in this case.

From my earlier post

Debate on Times Now.

One lady said, there is no environmental report submitted.

A gentleman replied, it is on the net. Dr. Swamy said, who has asked for the report?

The lady from BJP said New Delhi Govt is not interfacing well to alley fears and thus creates issue.

It is a full on attack on nuclear establishment.

The Govt has given up its job of interfacing. The scientists have now to do this work for which they have little authority and so no one from the jholawalla will listen and hear anyways. There are debates on TV with lines like 'nuke energy belonged to dark times'(!!!!!!) etc. All the good work done by Russia with India, future work with USA also, etc. is to be ignored thanks to UPA inactivity and first family drama. All this as per Dr. Swamy because probably Thorium cycle research is going on and external.

Perhaps the nikamma prince-charming/UPA/ABC/XYZ/NGO-groups wants crumbs or haftas from lucrative business directly and then all the credit for scientists' good work as the new thing emerging on the horizon will be given to first family. The business and economy be damned, as going on.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 22 Sep 2011 05:02

Theo_Fidel wrote:This particular power plant was originally proposed for Kerala way way back when to help with the crippling power shortages there. Staunch opposition there forced the Government to cast about for a 'pliable' area nearby to stick this project into and still be close to Kerala. The Koorkai coast is easily the poorest and most neglected area of TN. Other than education, colleges and schools there is very little other organized industry in the area. It is a fallacy that there was no opposition. There was tremendous opposition in the beginning, but many community elders sided with the government and believing their promises convinced the locals early on to support the project. These community elders have turned against the project in recent days, esp. due to Fukushima and the AERB's stance that everything is still normal.

Shree Gorbachev visited India back in '88 (or '87?) and announced a slew of projects with Soviet credit funding, including Tehri dam and two 1000 MW reactors. By that time NTPC has started off on the Kayamkulam Thermal plant and the Center has allocated a percentage of Neyveli/Ramagundam projects output etc to overcome Kerala's shortage. So Kerala was not even *seriously* in the agenda for nuke power due to population density, except occasional noises about installing a plant at Chemeni in Malabar region. Koodankulam, since it is in the central pool, will contribute power to Kerala, same as Neyveli. But saying it was proposed for Kerala might not be accurate.

OT, the Kayamkulam plan never got to its original projected capacity due to lack of capacity addition later, but OT.

- Too many people live in the danger zone. About 2.5 Million people. There is no long term evacuation plan for these people.

This is a concern and fully agree with you. Forget long term evacuation, there is NO PLAN.

- Most of the agitation funding is coming from the Western side of the Ghats, which is still shaken to find out that a nuclear evacuation zone would almost certainly put them at risk as well. All the way upto & including Thiruvananthapuram. High level winds blow from East to West around here.

That I dont think is true. I sort of know the movers behind the anti-nuke groups in Kerala, as one of the leading lights of the movement taught me during my CET days and I did my project in an organization known to harbor anti-nuke activists of Kerala. It is true they have been agitating for years (rather weakly, due to powercuts causing even their wives to broom them out) and might have recently band-wagonered on to the Koodankulam fracas. But saying the funding is coming from Kerala is not correct. There is simply not enough funds for them in Kerala. And as I said, there is simply not enough awareness about evacuation dangers.

What I heard is that this was an Indian church's (not what is termed EJ) co-ordinated effort around Koodankulam. Now before accusing my chaddi's saffron color (In my defense, I ate pindi-channa with Type A food color

), I wish to add that IMO, the local churches might be using this agitation to deal with local unrest, social issues, keep the herd together, stay relevant etc.

Sort of doing what Left in Kerala does all the time.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Sep 2011 08:14

Theo_Fidel wrote:http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 31307.html

Kudankulam impasse ends
PTI | 06:09 PM,Sep 21,2011

Chennai, Sep 21 (PTI) The 11-day hunger strike against Kudankulam Nuclear Plant ended today after the Tamil Nadu government promised to pass a resolution at the Cabinet for halting of the project even as the Centre sought to allay fears over safety.The end to the agitation came during a meeting between a delegation of the core group of protesters and Chief Minister J Jayalalithaa here."The Cabinet will be convened on September 22 and it will adopt a resolution (urging the Centre) to not to go ahead with the works on the plant site till the people's fears are removed," a state government statement said.Assuring the delegation that she would talk to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on his return from the US on September 27, she said a delegation headed by Finance Minister O Panneerselvam will also submit a memorandum to him, it said. "The Chief Minister has requested us to call off the fast and we are doing it," S P Udhaya Kumar, Convener of People's Movement against Atomic Power, spearheading the stir, told reporters while announcing end to the hunger strike.Kumar said despite withdrawal of their fast, "we will continue to keep up the pressure on the Central Government" to scrap the project, set to be commissioned in December, a decade after the work on it began.The stir ended after Prime Minister's emissary, Minister of State in the PMO V Narayanasamy, met protestors in Tirunelveli District yesterday. He briefed Jayalalithaa this morning besides conveying Singh's message on the issue to her.Narayanasamy assured her on behalf of the Centre that there would be no compromise on the safety aspects of the project, an official release said in New Delhi.He briefed the Prime Minister about his talks before Singh left for New York, it said.
Chetak,

There is only sporadic protests in AP, mostly for jobs. Meghalaya is different, the main question there is what NPCIL will do with the Tailings. It has not been able to answer that question.
If that is your approach what about Baba Ramdev, who gets quite a bit of his donations from Abroad. Do we then accuse him of having ulterior motives and darkly hint at his being anti-national for taking on the Government. Or for that matter the Arya Samaj in Arunachal that is bitterly opposed to dams. As I said, this way lies madness.

Theo_Fidel ji,

My inputs are slightly different but I take your point.

This is an all out, well coordinated attack on our nuclear establishment and to see it in any different light would only cause us troubles further down the road.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Sep 2011 08:23

The OP Ed in TOI states

Misguided activism

Energy-hungry India's ambitious plan to raise nuclear capacity to 63,000 MW by 2032 makes sense. But meeting the target won't be easy, going by demonstrations against nuclear power projects countrywide. The latest agitation over Tamil Nadu's Kudankulam plant - agitators there have just ended an 11-day fast - shows yet again how easily passions can be whipped up. Why nuclear energy appears open to mischievous fear-mongering isn't hard to see. These mega-ventures, involving big bucks and foreign collaboration, need to be built and maintained with top-grade safety standards. However rare, when mishaps do occur as in Japan's Fukushima, they serve as fodder for anti-nuclear power lobbies besides provoking knee-jerk local protests.

Sometime ago, Fukushima was used to justify calls to scrap the Jaitapur plant in Maharashtra. Haryana, Andhra, Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat have had their share of troubles while Bengal junked the Haripur project. In Tamil Nadu, NGO-backed protesters now want Kudankulam's atomic power plant closed, citing misgivings over safety and displacement. The chief minister's detailed statement about safety measures in place fell on deaf ears and the Centre - reportedly ready to 'reconsider' the project - seems on the verge of caving in. When people adopt agitation for agitation's sake, goaded by myopic activists with ideological axes to grind, the first casualty is reasoned debate. Yet public awareness can hardly be raised without cool-headed discussion on both the benefits and risks of nuclear energy use.

It is no one's case that public concerns over safety needn't be addressed. If anything, Fukushima torpedoed complacency about nuclear power, driving home that disaster preparedness must plan for even freak accidents. Mishaps, however, can happen as much in a chemical plant, a coalmine or an oilrig as in a nuclear power plant. Managing concerns demands open debate about our nuclear edifice, whose decision-making processes must be more transparent. Periodic reviews of existing plants are in order, along with public education about security assessments and contingency plans. Reinforcing the structural integrity of sites must be top priority. This mandates upgrade in installation design - reactors, control rooms, containment areas, cooling systems, power backups - to help plants better withstand calamities.

The aim, ultimately, is to have our nuclear power programme take off. Fast-developing India can't rest content with Luddite responses to technology, as frequently manifested in misguided activism be it against transgenic crops or nuclear energy. Our power consumption is set to increase by leaps and bounds. Environment-friendly energy use being critical to our high growth path, we require alternatives to polluting fossil fuels. Renewables - coming with their own set of headaches concerning use of land and other resources - can't do the trick alone. We need a diversified energy basket, which includes an emissions-free source like nuclear power generated to benefit people on a mass scale.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Sep 2011 08:11

TN Cabinet adopts resolution on Kudankulam

The Tamil Nadu Cabinet on Thursday passed a resolution urging the Centre to halt the work on the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Project (KKNPP) until the fears of local population over the safety of the plants are allayed.

The Cabinet resolution was in line with the assurance given by Chief Minister Jayalalithaa to the anti-Kudankulam protesters on Wednesday, when their representatives called on her.

Though the 12-day fast by the protesters came to an end on Thursday following assurances by Ms. Jayalalithaa, they have vowed to intensify their struggle against the Union government in the days to come.

Bishop of Tuticorin Roman Catholic Diocese Rt. Rev. Yvon Ambroise, who came to the protest venue at 10.30 a.m., explained in detail the demands put forth during their meeting with Ms. Jayalalithaa in Chennai on Wednesday.

“We urged the Chief Minister that the State Cabinet pass a resolution demanding the permanent closure of the KKNPP and appealed to her to withdraw cases against some of the protesters during the agitation. We also appealed to her to draw a comprehensive alternative energy policy, which should ensure tapping of non-conventional energy sources at the optimum level so that the environment and people living near such power generation units do not get affected. Since the Chief Minister's replies satisfied us to the maximum possible extent, we agreed to withdraw the ongoing indefinite fast,” In his address, coordinator of the agitation, S.P. Udhayakumar said representatives of non-governmental organisations, social activists, anti-nuke groups and community leaders would participate in a meeting to be held in Madurai on September 25 to decide on the future course of action against nuclear programmes in the country.

He informed that a protest against the KKNPP would be held at Samithoppu in Kanyakumari district on October 2 under the leadership of Swamy Balaprajapathi. “We'll even lay siege to the KKNPP in the near future to ensure its permanent closure,” he said.

The protesters left the venue only after after the Cabinet passed the resolution. However, the sprawling pandal erected for the protest is yet to be dismantled.

“It will be there till the Union government gives a satisfying reply to our demands. If not, the pandal will come in handy for us again,” said S.V. Antony, president, Uvari panchayat.

It is most unfortunate that the TN government is simply caving in to any and every demand. This is the second time it has set a very bad precedent in the last few weeks. The Kudankulam protest is not to demand better protection or allaying of fears. The demand is simply to shutdown the plant, nothing less. The involvement of certain players in this is significant.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 23 Sep 2011 10:15

Now I'm starting to wonder which states are good for siting nuclear plants. Put plants only in those states and electricity only for those states. Under no circumstances put any plants in J&K, North East and any more plants in TN as these states are suspect.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 23 Sep 2011 10:28

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Sep 2011 06:57

A sensible writeup in the HT on the current agitation and controversy WRT the proposes NPPs in the country.

Dialogue as a critical coolant

Nothing evokes a nuclear reaction quite as much as the nuclear issue in India. So it is no surprise that highly emotionally-charged responses have surrounded the setting up of the Kudankulam nuclear plant in Tamil Nadu. While the minister of state in the prime minister's office, at the behest of Manmohan Singh, has assured that nothing would be done which would compromise the safety of the people, Tamil Nadu chief minister J Jayalalithaa has made this a political issue and sought the suspension of work on the plant. The protest against the plant has now been called off. However, the fears of those living around the plant are legitimate.

Nuclear power is still an unknown quantity in India and the recent Japan Fukushima fiasco has heightened fears. While it's indisputable that India can't meet all its growing energy needs through hydel, thermal and non-conventional sources, pushing nuclear energy is always fraught both with risk and resistance from those living in the vicinity of the plants. India's track record in nuclear safety has been patchy, with leakages and reactors working below capacity as have been the case at both Rawatbhata and Kalpakkam. Assurances from politicians that all safety measures are in place have little meaning, they are not experts and will go in whichever direction the favourable winds are blowing. But, the question that must be asked is whether such secrecy is required when it comes to matters nuclear. Today people have access to various sources of information and this can fuel fears. The political class cannot expect to commission nuclear reactors in populated areas and be ensured of an easy ride. The only way these tensions over commissioned plants can be avoided is for the scientific community to be more transparent and take people into confidence on issues like this which could have far reaching consequences on their lives.

A positive step has been the effort by senior officers of the Nuclear Power Corporation of India and the Department of Atomic Energy to assess the situation and allay the fears of the local community in Kudankulam. It's no one's contention that the blueprints of nuclear plants be made public. It is imperative that people know about the possible drawbacks of such plants as well as the benefits. The issue of rehabilitation and compensation for land is another issue which should be addressed comprehensively before construction begins. Nuclear energy is a costly proposition to begin with. But if interminable delays take place after a plant is commissioned as is happening in both Jaitapur and Kudankulam, the cost overruns become prohibitive and the benefits diminished. As of now, the protests over Kudankulam and Jaitapur have been by the locals, politicians and NGOs. The fact that the scientific community has stepped in this time could prevent the debate from getting radioactive as usual.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Sep 2011 08:22

^^^
Relatively calm writing and well written editorial. The nuclear establishment would do well to take heed. Sure they could try to ride roughshod over the locals but the resistance will come back more virulently next time.

The key question is one of confidence. The scientists have layers upon layers of precautions and safety barriers. This is not where the lack of confidence is. Living in the vicinity, the local leaders here have no confidence that the Atomic agencies will do the right thing or can operate this plant safely long term. They haven't changed one single thing after Fukushima other than telling us baldly it can never happen here. How do they know? The technology is inherently unstable and dependent on so many complex systems just to prevent catastrophe.

Something like the Narora fire which burned out by itself in a relatively small plant would be magnified in intensity and danger in KKNPP even if protection is better at KKNPP. Yet both plants are essentially operated under the same rules and by the same people even. This is the first time most of them have the keys to such a large plant using this precise technology. Why are we the Guinea pigs for this relative 'experiment'. Without restoring the confidence of local leaders the agitation will continue and get stronger.

6 months ago when I posted here after Fukushima that things have changed and the local leaders are mobilizing against the project I was laughed at, called a fool and much much worse. Let me tell you the nuclear establishment does the exact same thing on the ground, regularly insulting those it should be serving and being completely transparent too. Now the locals &I may all be fools, but it is our land and we reserve the right to behave as foolishly as we want to on it.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 24 Sep 2011 10:13

Regarding 'we'-saar,are you from the fishing community in the immediate vicinity.

Or is your land in the area which can be affected.Can you indicate the distance of your place from KKNP.Because everyone is concerned about the safety and well being of OUR people.So that there can be an informed debate.

Why is the christist bishop leading the agitation.what does this thug/clown know about nuclear safety.I can understand if theo saar leads the agitation,if he is in the immediate vicinity.

Why has this agitation suddenly cropped up?Why this demand of shutting down which this christist thug (the Bishop) is demanding.

Is it the local leadrs or NGOs infiltrated by outsiders.We want to be sure that there is no religious dimension given the track record of foreign christists (US and Britain) towards India and Hindoos and the stereotypes they have erected.

where is the ultimate SCM-somnath and the erudite amitji whois suspicious of hindutva.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 24 Sep 2011 10:52

^^^ SCM has changed his handle most probably ...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 24 Sep 2011 11:35

svenkat wrote:Regarding 'we'-saar,are you from the fishing community in the immediate vicinity.

Or is your land in the area which can be affected.Can you indicate the distance of your place from KKNP.Because everyone is concerned about the safety and well being of OUR people.So that there can be an informed debate.

Why is the christist bishop leading the agitation.what does this thug/clown know about nuclear safety.I can understand if theo saar leads the agitation,if he is in the immediate vicinity.

Why has this agitation suddenly cropped up?Why this demand of shutting down which this christist thug (the Bishop) is demanding.

Is it the local leadrs or NGOs infiltrated by outsiders.We want to be sure that there is no religious dimension given the track record of foreign christists (US and Britain) towards India and Hindoos and the stereotypes they have erected.

where is the ultimate SCM-somnath and the erudite amitji whois suspicious of hindutva.

svenkat

I think that would be inappropriate to talk about theo in that manner. I live far yet I feel concerned.

Also to call Christian Bishop as thug/clown is not correct.

I am sure you would be aware of religious composition in "down south". Many communities have converted to Christianity long time back while some of their clans retained original religion. It is quite common for religious leaders to lead some agitations based on popular demands. Whether it is justified or not is a different question. Demands need to be understood and explained and Govt better come up with good strategy to counter this.

Name calling ( Nazis and thugs or clowns ) aren't going to help a bit. This would reduce the debate to flame.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 24 Sep 2011 11:58

chanakya,
I am from the deep south.The conversion took place within 200 years.You are completely wrong on that.

Tamizhnaadu has been part of the periyaarist revolution.This area has 'n' number of schools and colleges and this area is politically vibrant.I see no need for the christist thug to take the lead.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 24 Sep 2011 12:23

svenkat wrote:chanakya,
I am from the deep south.The conversion took place within 200 years.You are completely wrong on that.

Tamizhnaadu has been part of the periyaarist revolution.This area has 'n' number of schools and colleges and this area is politically vibrant.I see no need for the christist thug to take the lead.

Well I suppose two hundred years is long enough to establish itself in the region. Matter of perception. Who knows in another 200 years what would happen if same continues.

While you may not see the need , people see the need and they gather before the call of Christian "thug" in a politically "vibrant" area. That should answer you.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Sep 2011 14:51

Jaitpur, has been out of news for some time. It seems that the French are confident that the NPP will get the nod.

Jaitapur plant will get a nod: French ambassador

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 24 Sep 2011 15:02

I have already been warned by RahulM for pointing out the obvious-appeasement politics.

The kudangulam area is part of tirunelveli district.this 'corner' is backward.which part of the world does not have less affluent areas.But overall,tirunelveli,nagercoil and thoothukudi are very much part of the mainstream.there is a long record of political activism in modern times.

The christians are no homogenous block.Most of the educational institutions are run by them.The christian naadars dominate business.We wish them well.They are part of the landscape.Hindu naadars include NS Krishnan,Si.Pa.Adhitaanar who have taken Hinduism to the cleaners.No problem with that too.Even Hindu upper castes like Saiva pillais have critically examined 'Hinduism'.No problem with that too.There are christian naadars like Jeppiar who are core MGR supporters who dont care for formal religion.They have respect for genuine faith.

I have a HUGE problem when the church(whose credentials are suspect in my eyes) jumps into the fray.The church is demonising the GOI,creating terror narratives,speaking of 'us' vs 'them'.I have a problem with that narrative.

I respect theo saar.But he is ignoring the background and narrative.I will stand by what I said.The joker has no business doing what he is doing.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 24 Sep 2011 15:11

Now everything is going nuclear!

So many threads to discuss such stuff, but even nuclear thread is not being spared!

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 24 Sep 2011 15:58

@ svenkat , we are all aware of the political/ religious problems of the region... And I do agree that the protest are vatican driven...

However theo is a nice guy otherwise .. Even though I have always disagreed with him on the nuclear issue...

I don't see how the fishermen would lose livelihood...They are innocent people misled by people with anti -Indian agenda...

As per Subu Swamy ..the french gov't is likely to be involved .. So that they can sell their areva stuff...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Sep 2011 17:13

^^^

But isn't the plant nearly completed / is in testing phase?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 24 Sep 2011 17:37

^^ The plant is not going to be put down by any means ... 3.1 b has been invested in it already... Putting it down when it is about to achieve criticality is impossible ..

TN state assembly does not have any juris over the matter... even Swamy twitted that the plant will remain ... However the nefarious activists are neither aware nor concerned about these things...

IMHO these people are far more dangerous than TSP and PRC combined....

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Sep 2011 07:32

Get radiation studies of thermal power done: Tribunal

It seems that even TPPs produce some amount of radiation, which unlike the NPP radiation is completely below the radar.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 26 Sep 2011 15:54

Indian Nuclear Posture: Confusing Signals from DRDO

http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/IndianN ... ang_260911

Is Democracy Thwarting India’s Nuclear Power Ambitions?

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2011 ... -ambitions

A Mr. Ramana has been quoted here

ISI claims proceeds from photochors transactions came to India as well

http://www.omantribune.com/index.php?pa ... &id=101687

K_Reddy · Post by **K_Reddy** » 26 Sep 2011 17:11

Two things I want to bring up to put some prespective into this debate of Nuclear energy safety.

Per unit of energy produced, Nuclear energy is by FAR the safest.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths ... ource.html

The danger of Nuclear radiation is vastly overestimated.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/09/resear ... on-of.html

Infact there is not a single case of confirmed death from a nuclear disaster including Chernobyl and Fukushima!

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 26 Sep 2011 19:13

^^^ Chernobyl disaster had many deaths. Many fire-fighters (about 40) died due to intense radiation right away (within weeks) and others (later) due to cancer. The estimation of cancer deaths varies from under 50 to millions or even more. Among reputable scientists the upper figure is less than a few thousand (3000 if one assumes LNT, a hypothesis, is true). Many higher figures (some have been posted and repeated ad-absurdum in BRF) are not credible and have no basis.

TMI accident, has been studied in quite detail and no single death (or illness) is due to accident. Total radiation released was less than background radiation.

Fukushima: Again despite claims of millions deaths and multiple atomic explosions by likes of Busby (and repeated hear in brf by their worshippers) there is no single case of radiation death.

Also for perspective, as has been posted here many times with references, radiation from a typical coal plant (with same size as NPP) is 100 times (or more) than a typical NPP.
(See for example here

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Sep 2011 19:22

The Kudankulam power plant agitation is a strange one against nuke power. Among other thing it hits at Russia also. Its almost like India doesn't want any nuke power plants.

Is it only for imported or all types?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 26 Sep 2011 19:29

@ AmberG - The cancer related deaths of chernobyl were probably in dozens (most pessimistic)...the figure of millions is beyond absurd..

Unlike a nuclear bomb explosion Reactor meltdowns don't cause cause leukemia or most types of solid organ malignancy...

THE ONLY MALIGNANCY RISK THAT WAS INCREASED IN CHERNOBYL WAS PAPPILARY CANCER THYROID (which is relatively easily curable, mortality is quite low..)... And that too at an incident of <1 /100,000...

I have discussed this topic with quite a few radiation oncologist colleagues... One of whom is an expert on molecular mechanisms of thyroid malignancy ..

In the region around Chernobyl, more than
5 million people may have been exposed to excess radiation, mainly through contamination by
iodine-131 and cesium isotopes.
7
Although exposure to nuclear-reactor fallout does not cause
acute illness, it may elevate long-term cancer risks.
Studies of the Japanese atomic-bomb survivors
showed clearly elevated rates of leukemia and
solid cancers, even at relatively low total body
doses.
28,29
However, there are important differences between the type of radiation and dose rate
associated with atomic-bomb exposure and those
associated with a reactor accident. These differences may explain why studies evaluating leukemia and nonthyroid solid cancers have not
shown consistently elevated risks in the regions
around Chernobyl. Alternatively, small increases in
the risks of leukemia and nonthyroid solid cancers
may become more apparent with improved cancer
registries or longer follow-up. In the population
around Three Mile Island, there was a notable temporary increase in cancer diagnoses in the years
immediately after the accident, but this increase
may have been the result of intensified cancer
screening in the area. Long-term follow-up has
shown no increases in cancer mortality.
However, there is strong evidence of an increased rate of secondary thyroid cancers among
children who have ingested iodine-131.
Careful
studies of children living near the Chernobyl plant
(which included estimates of the thyroid radiation dose) suggest that the risk of thyroid cancer
increased by a factor of 2 to 5 per 1 Gy of thyroid
dose.Although this relative increase in incidence is large, the baseline incidence of thyroid
cancer in children is low (<1 case per 100,000
children). Factors that increase the carcinogenic
effect of iodine-131 include a young age and iodine deficiency at the time of exposure. Among
children in regions with endemic iodine deficiency,
the risk of thyroid cancer per 1 Gy of thyroid dose
was two to three times that among children in
regions in which iodine intake was normal.
Moreover, the risk of thyroid cancer among children who were given stable iodine after the Chernobyl accident was one third that among children
who did not receive iodine.
Studies of the effect
of thyroid exposure to radiation in utero and
in adulthood have been inconclusive.
In accidents in which iodine-131 is released,
persons in affected areas should attempt to
minimize their consumption of locally grown
produce and groundwater. However, since the
half-life of iodine-131 is only 8 days, these local
resources should not contain substantial amounts
of iodine-131 after 2 to 3 months. On the advice
of public health officials, area residents may take
potassium iodide to block the uptake of iodine-131
in the thyroid. To be most effective, prophylactic
administration of potassium iodide should occur
before or within a few hours after iodine-131 exposure. The administration of the drug more than a
day after exposure probably has limited effect,
unless additional or continuing exposure is expected.
Although potassium iodide can have toxic effects, the Polish experience with en masse
administration of the drug after Chernobyl was
reassuring. More than 10 million children and
adolescents in Poland were given a single dose of
prophylactic potassium iodide, with very limited
morbidity.
The Food and Drug Administration
has issued guidelines for the administration of
potassium iodide according to age and expected
radiation exposure

Source

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMra1103676

This is from a top medical journal.. If one need more reference's (including textbook ones) I could quote a 100..

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 26 Sep 2011 19:32

ramana wrote:The Kudankulam power plant agitation is a strange one against nuke power. Among other thing it hits at Russia also. Its almost like India doesn't want any nuke power plants.

Is it only for imported or all types?

Subramanian swamy tweeted that China and France are behind the whole protest for a different reason... China does not want India to grow while the french want to sell Areva reactors so it is protesting against russian ones...

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 26 Sep 2011 19:55

gakakkad wrote:
ramana wrote:The Kudankulam power plant agitation is a strange one against nuke power. Among other thing it hits at Russia also. Its almost like India doesn't want any nuke power plants.

Is it only for imported or all types?
Subramanian swamy tweeted that China and France are behind the whole protest for a different reason... China does not want India to grow while the french want to sell Areva reactors so it is protesting against russian ones...

From Janata Party website
Statement of Dr. Subramanian Swamy 21.09.2011

The present agitation in the area is not spontaneous but began by vested interests of countries which hope to sell reactors to India and do not want competition from Russia. The Catholic church which is surprisingly openly represented at the protest venue through large number of nuns and padres is also active which is inexplicable..

Sasikala is active in exporting Thorium laden sands off Kodankulam area..

One of our most modern Naval ports is being readied on the coast off Kodankulam near Kanyakumari and will enable us not only to protect the reactor against sea launched attack but will also monitor movements in the Indian ocean. This fact is known to some foreign countries who are not happy with the increased role of India in the Indian ocean.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 26 Sep 2011 22:38

Almost a month ago I was caught off guard by a greenpeace activist to sign a campaign form against areva plant. I simply asked him why. he was ill prepared for someone who lurks around brf everyday. He was defeated in minutes. He came back with his boss - who was no better.
In the end.. they laid down their case and agreed that they are "paid activist".