China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Sep 2011 03:42

"What is our plan?"

Our plan should be to humiliate them militarily by delivering high impact blows against both critical nodes for the TBA, but also score a very lopsided success ratio in air to air, and in areas where any acquisition of better technology by us, allows us to get an edge.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 24 Sep 2011 03:54

@ ShauryaT ^^^

Substitute India for China and view the retreat from the Hindu Kush to Laos and you'll have a framework for a response based on the same victimhood narrative.

But as someone said: ""The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves, that we are underlings."

More recently, "In the end what you don't surrender, well the world just strips away..." Bruce Springsteen, "Human Touch"

India needs to take a stand-- a line in the sand. That should be the PLAN.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Sep 2011 05:57

ShauryaT wrote:
Ivanev wrote:But then China is a mother rogue nation supporting all the children rogue nations. China is a bully and loves companies of bullies. They have done it in the past, when their economy wasn't strong, and they will continue doing that in future. I am sure the military planners in India, are assessing such threats and are aware of it.
There is another way to think about them. Not a bully, but a proud nation of a proud people, with the longest continuous nation-state in existence. It was the middle kingdom, who did not need anyone else. Outside nations, not linked with Chinese culture were "barbarians", in their view. Others in their periphery, were lesser barbarians depending upon the "level" of Chinese culture, they incorporated and/or the level of suzerainty it exercised over others.

This proud nation, was forced to submit and humiliated. This nation has paid through blood to be on the rise again and has defended its interests, tooth and nail against one and all. Yet, her borders are still not secure, with the far north east in Russian Control (ceded only in 1858), Taiwan (1949) aided by USA, South Tibet in Indian Control (1912?) and Outer Mongolia, propped by Russia and USA. So, it is only a victim. This is how they think, this is what the Chinese are fed. The 100 years of humiliation and then the struggle for independence and the cost they paid to be where they are today and headed. Our challenge is to either accept this version or face the wrath of soon to be the largest and most powerful nation on earth, which it always was!

What is our plan?

Well Shaurya. That is a good statement of what the Chinese appear to be saying. But tell me, when was Tibet a part of Han China? And to what extent were the nations to the west in Xinjiang across the Gobi desert integrated with the "real China" to the east?

China has a right to be what it always was. It's the expanded China policy that is a problem. What should our response be? In simple terms would be to "prick their bubble". No one is questioning the legitimate rights of a great ciilization. But China is a nation led by an extremist ideology tying to rule Tibet by force and demographic decimation. Demographic decimation was what Islam did in the past. How about helping someone do that to China of that the politiburo is put under stress.

milanforever · Post by **milanforever** » 24 Sep 2011 06:53

kmkraoind wrote:PRC has officially one-child policy for a long period of time, that means the little Chinese emperor has 2 parents and 4 grand parents to take care off (if he is married, add wife plus her 6 lineage). Moreover PRC cares very little for individual citizens and largesse of socialistic things like food, shelter and health care facilities are drying up fast . My question is what will be inclination of Chinese soldiers to fight with life, since they know all of his parents and grand parents will be left to their own fate without a compassionate caretaker. What are morale standards of Chinese soldiers.

I understand that this is an India forum and you probably have never been to China or know the real situation in China. But what you said isn't correct.

I've lived in Canada for 10 years. Every couple of year I'd go back to China to visit my family. My mom was in hospital between 2009 and 2011 because of liver problem. I had to fly to China three times because she was in dangerous condition and the doctor told me that she literally only had two or three days' life. Thank god she had a liver transplant surgery last April and after that she is been stable and recovering well

The medical bill was very expensive but the government covered the majority. My parents told me that the government has a state-wide health insurance and it paid about $50K USD in my mom's case. Mind you that my family are just normal people, no connection to government officials.

A friend of mine, her dad , a 70+ years old man from Shanghai, had health problem last month , had to to go to hospital and stay there for two weeks for treatment. The majority of his medical bill was also paid by the government.

China is not a rich country, at least still a long way to go to reach the standard of the U.S or Canada. But starvation is not a problem in China. My parents are both over 60. They went through the famine in 1950s and literally had to eat grass sometimes to survive during the hard time. They always told me that back then there was not enough food, everybody was equal, but equally poor, dirt poor. Nowadays even the poorest have enough food and don't have to worry about starvation. The problem however is the disparity between rich and poor. The government has been working hard on it, unlike what you said that they don't give a shit. Another problem is corruption, which is pretty bad.

I feel that it's normal to be somewhat baised when looking at China from Indians' perspective. After all the relationship between the two countries isn't that good, and the systems are very different. Is the CCP the best possible government out there? of course not. But it's not evil as some might think or some medias portray it to be.

Chinese are patriotic, juts like Indians or people from any other country. We're proud of our history and culture. One child policy or not, it doesn't change that. Sometimes I found it interesting that many non-Chinese blame the one child policy being against humanity and human rights. The reality is that by far the majority of Chinese , as far as I know, totally support it, me included. Coz we know that the resource is limited, overpopulation will bring no good to the country or this planet.

All the Chinese people I know have the same hope as me : I don't care if China will be a superpower, that's not important to me. I'll be very happy if people in my country are rich, live a good life, and we can defend ourselves from invasion. That's it.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 24 Sep 2011 07:30

milanforever wrote: All the Chinese people I know have the same hope as me : I don't care if China will be a superpower, that's not important to me. I'll be very happy if people in my country are rich, live a good life, and we can defend ourselves from invasion. That's it.

I largely agree with this view. China is decisively not super power material. One needs more than Artha (Sanskrit for wealth and power) to be a super power. One needs a proselytization belief to do such a thing. China has never shown such a zeal, in its history.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 24 Sep 2011 07:47

shiv wrote: Well Shaurya. That is a good statement of what the Chinese appear to be saying. But tell me, when was Tibet a part of Han China? And to what extent were the nations to the west in Xinjiang across the Gobi desert integrated with the "real China" to the east?

China has a right to be what it always was. It's the expanded China policy that is a problem. What should our response be? In simple terms would be to "prick their bubble". No one is questioning the legitimate rights of a great ciilization. But China is a nation led by an extremist ideology tying to rule Tibet by force and demographic decimation. Demographic decimation was what Islam did in the past. How about helping someone do that to China of that the politiburo is put under stress.

Shiv ji: What in your view is this extremist ideology of China that you equate to Islam?

Just for the record: IMO: Islam is a war manual, authoritative and discriminatory, claims to be complete to govern all aspects of human life and completed (so, no changes). Its ideas are codified in the Koran and the Sunnah. Its practices in its four major jurisprudences and thousands of fatwas are well documented (realize, you know all this)

Not trying to justify China's actions in Tibet or Xinjiang but curious to know, where you come from on the above statement. By that logic, the European conquest of the Americas was no less a genocide of a complete alien set of peoples. The European wars were no less brutal. The number of times Poland has been subject to chess games and a rape of its population is not funny. China can at least claim Suzerainty over the lands it controls today. Trying to understand the context of the comparison to Islam.

I will come to the question of Tibet and Xinjiang later and my views on them, which are "filled with anger". But, I will hold it for now.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Sep 2011 08:58

ShauryaT wrote:Shiv ji: What in your view is this extremist ideology of China that you equate to Islam?

Just for the record: IMO: Islam is a war manual, authoritative and discriminatory, claims to be complete to govern all aspects of human life and completed (so, no changes). Its ideas are codified in the Koran and the Sunnah. Its practices in its four major jurisprudences and thousands of fatwas are well documented (realize, you know all this)

Not trying to justify China's actions in Tibet or Xinjiang but curious to know, where you come from on the above statement. By that logic, the European conquest of the Americas was no less a genocide of a complete alien set of peoples. The European wars were no less brutal. The number of times Poland has been subject to chess games and a rape of its population is not funny. China can at least claim Suzerainty over the lands it controls today. Trying to understand the context of the comparison to Islam.

I will come to the question of Tibet and Xinjiang later and my views on them, which are "filled with anger". But, I will hold it for now.

You know Shaurya a petite pretty woman who murders her husband and a hairy male murderer have only one thing in common. The fact that they are murderers. Murderers come in many shapes and sizes and my mentioning the name of one of them does not mean I excuse or exonerate other murderers. Islam's occupation was just one example and please do not use my quoting of just one example as a failure to quote other examples - that is a specious argument. There are many examples in history as you have yourself said, and the Chinese occupation of Tibet is one of them.

Why am I not trying to stop the rape of Poland ? Simple. Poland's rape was in history. I am unable to stop it. It is over and done with.

Is Islam trying to expand now by demographic decimation? Yes it is. In Kashmir. Is the Chinese communist party trying to expand by demographic decimation now? Yes it is. in Tibet. Can I stop this? Since it is ongoing and concurrent, I can at least hope to do something rather than justifying inaction by pulling out historic examples.

Actually, as long as my own life is content I don't need to care about any damn thing in the world, but recall it was you who asked:

ShauryaT wrote:What is our plan?

I can only speak for myself. I think an Islamic expansion into China would be good for both the Chinese and Islam. Islam should claim suzerainty over Xinjiang and remove the pig eating Han?

manum · Post by **manum** » 24 Sep 2011 10:02

milanforever wrote:
kmkraoind wrote:PRC has officially one-child policy for a long period of time, that means the little Chinese emperor has 2 parents and 4 grand parents to take care off (if he is married, add wife plus her 6 lineage). Moreover PRC cares very little for individual citizens and largesse of socialistic things like food, shelter and health care facilities are drying up fast . My question is what will be inclination of Chinese soldiers to fight with life, since they know all of his parents and grand parents will be left to their own fate without a compassionate caretaker. What are morale standards of Chinese soldiers.
I understand that this is an India forum and you probably have never been to China or know the real situation in China. But what you said isn't correct.

snip

All the Chinese people I know have the same hope as me : I don't care if China will be a superpower, that's not important to me. I'll be very happy if people in my country are rich, live a good life, and we can defend ourselves from invasion. That's it.

I hope your mom is healthy and doing well...Its good to hear. I wont go into point to point details...but in India one has to pay a premium of 6500/- yearly and get a insurance card...this premium is deducted from income tax...so its virtually free...

You don't need to be indebted to government to pay for Citizens...Its simple insurance policy that'll do, out of your hard money... This is plain wrong rather you should be free to be critical to government...are you?

BPL yes there are a lot in India, we see in our everyday life everywhere...

but Milan this sense which has prevailed in you is because you are in Canada...This helps you to have a feel good.

The fact of matter is you are a Chinese, We are Indians and this is what is our identity...We are not branches of Islam with no territory and whole universe it claims...so wherever we live, the dirt in our respective countries belongs to us and till we don't do something for it...the restlessness will remain...

Sun is just the core which is burning...but all we identify it with light it gives, I would love you to come back and be part of that core...then may be you could tell what you think of China and its policies, go visit Tibet just for fun...till you are not part of System you are glossing over, I don't care what you say...Till then its all Buddhism...

but anyways what you call government in China?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Sep 2011 15:02

milanforever wrote: ...
Chinese are patriotic, juts like Indians or people from any other country. We're proud of our history and culture. One child policy or not, it doesn't change that. Sometimes I found it interesting that many non-Chinese blame the one child policy being against humanity and human rights. The reality is that by far the majority of Chinese , as far as I know, totally support it, me included. Coz we know that the resource is limited, overpopulation will bring no good to the country or this planet.
...
All the Chinese people I know have the same hope as me : I don't care if China will be a superpower, that's not important to me. I'll be very happy if people in my country are rich, live a good life, and we can defend ourselves from invasion. That's it.

Though I admire the patriotism and hope for good future, the action on ground from CCP are not just the same.

Let me not go into vivid details of how China is using pakis are proxy against India, nuclear proliferation, and so on. The point is, instead of being friends with Indian civilization, Chinese are competing, and at times sparring, which all is rather unfriendly. It also means that Chinese will not be able to understand when the same forces that are detrimental to Hindu culture also would start putting dagger in spine of the Chinese culture. How would you know that this does not happen and what would you do if such people, unlike say native animist Africans or south Americans etc, start pointing out how Chinese have worked against India in certain manner.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Sep 2011 17:43

milanforever wrote:
I've lived in Canada for 10 years. Every couple of year I'd go back to China to visit my family. My mom was in hospital between 2009 and 2011 because of liver problem. I had to fly to China three times because she was in dangerous condition and the doctor told me that she literally only had two or three days' life. Thank god she had a liver transplant surgery last April and after that she is been stable and recovering well

Happy to hear about your mother's recovery. Was your own tissue type not similar to your mothers? It would have been possible to transplant half your liver rather than wait till she was within 3 days of an unhappy end. Infants with liver failure often have transplants with part of their mother's liver in a hospital down the road from where I live in India. But I digress.

Living in Canada you may have had a chance to watch some Bollywood movies. Bollywood movies are often tear jerkers. For example one story could be of a man who gives his everything to bring up two orphan children. Eventually he sacrifices his life for them. On his deathbed he tells them that he had murdered their parents but felt obliged to look after them. The Chinese government is like this man from Bollywood.

They have a "good side" that helps Chinese citizens lead happy lives. If they did not have that good side Chinese citizens would chew off their balls and spit them out. But they have a bad side as well that has been shown to neighboring countries including India. And because of the Chinese government's past bad behavior the good Chinese people face the threat of war from many countries including nuclear war from India.

If you are a Canadian citizen you will probably be aware of how strong the anti-nuclear proliferation sentiment is in Canada. Well the Chinese government supplied nuclear weapons to Pakistan and those weapons are aimed at India. Because Pakistanis are mad maybe even I have only two or three days left to live - courtesy the Chinese government. In fact I hope Pakistanis give some nuclear weapons to their Islamic brothers in Xinjiang as a compliment to the Chinese communist government. So many thanks for telling a sanitized story of China - but those of us who live in these parts have a good idea of how we need to think to survive.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 24 Sep 2011 18:41

CJ
You have summed the fault lines of China which India should be working on. However, India is not important for China. It will make more sense for china to keep India pushed down and doesn't rival it economically.

This is what I had mentioned in my post. Also India will rise up in chinese calculations due to its potential-close cooperation with east asian countries meaning surrounding china(Indian pearl ), fight for remaining natural resources in africa etc. Biggest obstacle for china is fearful of IOR blockade. India is the strongest of all countries so far apart from uncle. Also geography favors India.
economic blockade can be curtains for ccp rule. Hence suppress/divide India- easiest option is thru pakisatan.

CJ
Well, time will tell. Pakistan has been not able to break up India, but, has been able to keep it on toes. had not US stepped in on India's behalf, who knows what would have happened. Also, China has officially said that it will not allow Pakistan to split up or die. Pak - China are the nations to be watched as an alliance in CIS in coming decade.

TSP is the strongest card that china has against India along with the proximity across POK. If India can untie this relationship then it will do wonders to us.
As mentioned in brf- destroy pakisatan give peace a chance. All route to peace is thru TSP.

kmkraoind
PRC has officially one-child policy for a long period of time, that means the little Chinese emperor has 2 parents and 4 grand parents to take care off (if he is married, add wife plus her 6 lineage). Moreover PRC cares very little for individual citizens and largesse of socialistic things like food, shelter and health care facilities are drying up fast . My question is what will be inclination of Chinese soldiers to fight with life, since they know all of his parents and grand parents will be left to their own fate without a compassionate caretaker. What are morale standards of Chinese soldiers.

CCP one child policy is mainly for hans, minorities(tibetans,uighurs, mongols and rural hans ) are exempt. also if one has a girl as first child, can have another pregnancy for a son.
Tibetans and uighurs have a slightly double the birthrate than urban hans.
Overall birthrate in china is still higher than explained by one child policy. because it is not strictly implemented.
Some authors do say that rising living standards have contributed a lot to reduce the fertility than one child policy.

shaurya T
This proud nation, was forced to submit and humiliated. This nation has paid through blood to be on the rise again and has defended its interests, tooth and nail against one and all. Yet, her borders are still not secure, with the far north east in Russian Control (ceded only in 1858), Taiwan (1949) aided by USA, South Tibet in Indian Control (1912?) and Outer Mongolia, propped by Russia and USA. So, it is only a victim. This is how they think, this is what the Chinese are fed. The 100 years of humiliation and then the struggle for independence and the cost they paid to be where they are today and headed. Our challenge is to either accept this version or face the wrath of soon to be the largest and most powerful nation on earth, which it always was!

CCP feeds this in their school books etc. It propagates these humiliations for their own benefit. They have decided not to overcome these humiliations. Hence china-Japan has lot of issues - despite multiple apologies and avoiding yasukoni shrine. China continues to harp on these. funnily enough there is a lot of economic cooperation between the two. contrast this with our experience with UK.

Milanforever
Chinese are patriotic, juts like Indians or people from any other country. We're proud of our history and culture. One child policy or not, it doesn't change that. Sometimes I found it interesting that many non-Chinese blame the one child policy being against humanity and human rights. The reality is that by far the majority of Chinese , as far as I know, totally support it, me included. Coz we know that the resource is limited, overpopulation will bring no good to the country or this planet.

according to ccp media majority do support the one child policy. Human rights orgs lamblast this policy because there is no choice of individual freedom which is important.In fact studies have shown that improving the living standards automatically reduce fertility rates without coercion or punitive action.

milanforever · Post by **milanforever** » 24 Sep 2011 20:17

@manum, shiv and other guys, thanks for your kind words about my mom's health.

@shiv, you're a very good writer, the analogy you made is pretty funny and accurate in the same time, at least to me. Do you have medical background? You're right in that half tissue from family memeber, like son or sister , is an option, but the doctor didn't opt for it. In the beginning, the first hospital didn't want to do liver transplant because she was 65 years old and too weak after a lung infection. They tried some more conservative treatment for like a year but it didn't work. Then we moved her to the 2nd hopsital, where the doctor suggested transplant. Her condition kept deteriorating at the time so I asked the doctor can I be the donor with half liver? The doctor didn't take it because they considered that my mom's condition was so bad that she wouldn't be able to survive with half liver, basically she wouldn't be able to grow the rest half, add to that her lung issue, making it very dangerous to do half liver transplant So we had to wait for a donor. And that was painful. After four months of wait, we finally had one.

Here comes another (used-to-be?) sensitive topic about China. The organ donor actually was a criminal, who was executed for killing. That's what I heard. I'm pretty sure that you guys have heard the story in China where prisons sell organs of newly executed criminals without asking permission or approval from him or their family in advance. I don't have first hand experience with that, but I'd tend to believe it did exist before, i.e. done by some individuals, but I don't believe it was done systematically by CCP. The problem however was that if it was done by individuals in prisons which is part of the government, the one party system makes it extremely difficult to get to know the truth and punish those people.

Of course seeing my mom was saved made me the happiest person on earth, but still concerned about the issue, I talked to my sister who knew more. She told me that nowadays it's strictly forbidden to do that, i.e. you'll have problem (not sure what type of punishment) if you just take the organs of a newly executed prisoner and sell them. How it works is that if the prisoner and their family agree with it and sign the paper, then it's ok. And you will pay a certain amount of money for the whole procedure and as compensation to the donor's family. How much is it? I'm not clear. My dad knows better. And to be brutally honest, I won't be shocked if part of the money is stolen by some government officials.

In the end, I felt a bit better after knowing that at least the donor's family will receive compensation from my family, but I 'd be truly disgusted and angry if somebody or the system puts part of the money into their own pocket, which should 100% go to the donor's family.

@manum, I think the analogy Shive made in his last post, i.e. the CCP and the guy in Bollywoord movie, pretty much represents how the majority of Chinese feels towards CCP. They've done a great job in terms of lifting people's life standard in the last 30 years (note not before 1980, before that period it was a joke of an era which for the most part was a total disaster). For this I'll salute and thank them. On the other hand there are intrinsic issues with one party system that can't be solved in my opinion, things like corruption or freedom of speech, which is better than 30 years ago, but not enough.

I do notice that there is some difference between Chinese and Indians. Chinese , probably similar to other east Asian nations, are more pragmatic, while Indians are more religious. Even though Buddism is the biggest religion in China, I haven't met any Chinese who is vegetarian, while for the Indian people I know, actually I have a couple of good Indian friends, vegetarians are not that rare.

I'm not into politics by my nature. I'm a computer programmer, you know, that's why I have many Indian coworkers, lol

When I finished undergraduate in China and started working in a stateowned bank, my boss liked me and wanted to promoted me. He asked me to write a letter to join CCP but I didn't. I know that he wanted to help me have a better opportunity in the bank, but I'm much more of a science or engineering type, I don't want to play with politics.

To me democracy alone doesn't guarantee prosperity. It does help people think and make decisions more independently, compared to totalitarianism where it's easier to program people into the same way of thinking, and do irrational things. In a long run, it's less prone to dangerous, extreme decisions, although it can still happen.

manum · Post by **manum** » 24 Sep 2011 20:58

Milan We are going OT...so lets leave other things other than military out of this forum now...

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 25 Sep 2011 01:03

krisna wrote:
according to ccp media majority do support the one child policy. Human rights orgs lamblast this policy because there is no choice of individual freedom which is important.In fact studies have shown that improving the living standards automatically reduce fertility rates without coercion or punitive action.

Therein lies the entire matter. As Indians, the first thing necessary is to stop looking at the Chinese and their society from a western prism. At least try. Once we do that, who are we to say, if in the best interests of the Chinese, this is actually not a more humane and beneficial policy for China for the times they live in?

It is so easy for these human rights groups to say these things, especially when they do not have to live there. I am sure the policy has Chinese critics too. But, for once try not to not look at China from the western prisms of democracy, individual rights, personal and political freedoms, etc. Please see the society for what it is, what it was, and what it has been through in current times and its trajectory.

Once we do do this from a truly Indian perspective (what is that now, I know

) will we will begin to understand, what our plan for China ought to be. Anyways, this is a military thread. I have myself been critical of OT posts, but in this case mea culpa. Sorry.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 25 Sep 2011 01:39

ShauryaT wrote: Once we do do this from a truly Indian perspective (what is that now, I know ) will we will begin to understand, what our plan for China ought to be. Anyways, this is a military thread. I have myself been critical of OT posts, but in this case mea culpa. Sorry.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1168930

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 25 Sep 2011 01:41

Usually nobody follows a policy which is not beneficial and certainly not for such a long time .
One child policy is a well thought out policy and it has played a major role in the formation of China as we know it today.
For the chinese policy makers it was necessary to decide whther to control their population and give everyone something to eat or let there be civil wars in future if they had considered human rights .

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Sep 2011 01:47

Properity also has been known to control populations.

There are and were alternatives. (NOT a knock on the decision they made.)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Sep 2011 09:16

CHINA DEMANDS WAR

The lead article the Chinese Communist Party newspaper Global Times on Tuesday contained an alarming call for a declaration of war against Vietnam and Philippines, two nations that in recent weeks launched the loudest protests against China’s sweeping maritime sovereignty claims over the South China Sea.

Headlined “The Time to Use Force Has Arrived in the South China Sea; Let’s Wage Wars on the Philippines and Vietnam to Prevent More Wars,” the article was written by Long Tao, a likely pseudonym literally translated as “The Dragon’s Teaching.” The name refers to the third chapter of the famous Chinese ancient military classic “Six Secret Military Teachings” that, among other things, promotes the idea that the best way to establish military awesomeness is to kill the highest-ranked dissenters.

Vietnam is viewed by China as the most militarily capable state whose government is the most politically uncompromising when it comes to challenging China’s territorial claims in the South China Sea.

The Philippines recently riled China greatly for its closeness to Japan, and its cantankerous and successful move last week to hold talks within the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, without inviting China, on cooperating and clarifying consensual and disputed claims in the South China Sea.

The fiery rhetoric of the article states that “the South China Sea is the best place for China to wage wars” because “of the more than 1,000 oil rigs there, none belongs to China; of the four airfields in the Spratly Islands, none belongs to China; once a war is declared, the South China Sea will be a sea of fire [with burning oil rigs]. Who will suffer the most from a war? Once a war starts there, the Western oil companies will flee the area, who will suffer the most?”

The article further calculates that “the wars should be focused on striking the Philippines and Vietnam, the two noisiest troublemakers, to achieve the effect of killing one chicken to scare the monkeys.”

What about possible U.S. intervention once China starts a war in the South China Sea? No worry, the article states, because the U.S. will be utterly unable to open a second front in the South China Sea to fight China because it is deeply mired in the anti-terror wars of the Middle East.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Sep 2011 09:28

Red Flag-16: China's new, improved surface-to-air missile system

China has deployed a new land-based mid-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system capable of intercepting both high and very low-flying targets, boosting its air defence capability.

The new SAM system called Hongqi-16, or Red Flag-16, was delivered to an air defence unit in the Shenyang Military Region, official media reported.

In a recent drill, two HQ-16 missiles fired by the unit successfully hit their aerial targets, according to People's Liberation Army Daily.

Besides engaging aerial targets at high altitude, the mid-range HQ-16 is able to intercept very low-flying targets at a distance of up to 40 km, filling the gap between the HQ-7 short-range SAM and the HQ-9 long-range SAM systems, Lan Yun, editor of Modern Ships, a Beijing-based military magazine, told the state-run Global Times.

According to Modern Navy, the official magazine of the PLA Navy, the naval variant of the missile system, which has been fitted on Type 054A frigates, can intercept sea-skimming missiles that fly less than 10 metres above the sea surface.

In modern air attacks, a large numbers of land-attack cruise missiles, such as the US Tomahawk missiles, are being used, Lan said. "They fly about 50 meters above the ground to avoid early radar warning and interception attempts," Lan said.

But the current mid-range SAM missile system HQ-12 can only engage targets that fly 300 meters above ground, according to the promotion brochure of its export version, called the KS-1A system.

"Besides the low-altitude engagement capability, the HQ-16 is also more accurate than the HQ-12.The deployment of the land-based HQ-16 can greatly enhance the mainland's capability to counter modern air attacks," Lan said.

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 29 Sep 2011 20:44

China launches first space docking mission

China launches its first space laboratory module

The Tiangong 1 module, which is expected to remain in orbit for two years, is considered an important steppingstone in the country's effort to construct its own crewed space station. The prototype space lab measures 34 feet (10.4 meters) long and 11 feet (3.35 meters) wide and has a mass of 8.5 metric tons.

"The main tasks of [the] Tiangong 1 spaceflight include: to provide a target vehicle for space rendezvous and docking experiment; to primarily establish a manned space test platform capable of long-term unmanned operation in space with temporary human attendance, and thus accumulate experiences for the development of the space station; to carry out space science experiments, space medical experiments and space technology experiments," Wu Ping, a spokeswoman for China's Manned Space Engineering office, told reporters before the launch.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 30 Sep 2011 01:37

Austin wrote:CHINA DEMANDS WAR

The lead article the Chinese Communist Party newspaper Global Times on Tuesday contained an alarming call for a declaration of war against Vietnam and Philippines, two nations that in recent weeks launched the loudest protests against China’s sweeping maritime sovereignty claims over the South China Sea.

Headlined “The Time to Use Force Has Arrived in the South China Sea; Let’s Wage Wars on the Philippines and Vietnam to Prevent More Wars,” the article was written by Long Tao, a likely pseudonym literally translated as “The Dragon’s Teaching.” The name refers to the third chapter of the famous Chinese ancient military classic “Six Secret Military Teachings” that, among other things, promotes the idea that the best way to establish military awesomeness is to kill the highest-ranked dissenters.

Vietnam is viewed by China as the most militarily capable state whose government is the most politically uncompromising when it comes to challenging China’s territorial claims in the South China Sea.

The Philippines recently riled China greatly for its closeness to Japan, and its cantankerous and successful move last week to hold talks within the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, without inviting China, on cooperating and clarifying consensual and disputed claims in the South China Sea.

The fiery rhetoric of the article states that “the South China Sea is the best place for China to wage wars” because “of the more than 1,000 oil rigs there, none belongs to China; of the four airfields in the Spratly Islands, none belongs to China; once a war is declared, the South China Sea will be a sea of fire [with burning oil rigs]. Who will suffer the most from a war? Once a war starts there, the Western oil companies will flee the area, who will suffer the most?”

The article further calculates that “the wars should be focused on striking the Philippines and Vietnam, the two noisiest troublemakers, to achieve the effect of killing one chicken to scare the monkeys.”

What about possible U.S. intervention once China starts a war in the South China Sea? No worry, the article states, because the U.S. will be utterly unable to open a second front in the South China Sea to fight China because it is deeply mired in the anti-terror wars of the Middle East.

I think there is a new market for Brahmos (and maybe Agni) - Phillipines.

Hopefully, ASEAN with its 600 million people with their dynamic economies can unite politically (and perhaps militarily) to counter PRC.

I am surprised the US is not considering activating its former bases in Subic Bay and Clark as well as ask Vietnam for CRB. Then one wonders who will be the noisiest monkey in that area?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Sep 2011 11:25

China has significant ASEAN stake. IMO, they will not be willing to antagonize them. The FTA was signed in 2010. The potential is more than what they can drill from South china sea.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Sep 2011 17:11

Centre's apathy to Chinese incursion upsets Leh residents

This getting worrying , we seem to be in late 150's early 1960's mood.

Even the newspapers in the region have been flooded with reports of Chinese incursions over the last few months. Defence Minister A.K. Antony might choose to blame "perception" for the Chinese incursions, it seems that this dragon has already hacked into the Indian stable.

Is Anthony a new Krishna Menon?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 30 Sep 2011 19:50

Aditya_V wrote:Is Anthony a new Krishna Menon?

The comparison is chilling... both of them considered staunch loyalist, region etc... hope this is one prophesy we are all proved wrong!!!

Kukreja · Post by **Kukreja** » 01 Oct 2011 19:09

Rocket's red glaring error: China sets space launch to America the Beautiful

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/se ... -beautiful

While China's leaders were celebrating the triumphant launch of Tiangong-1 space lab on Thursday, viewers of state television footage were treated to a bizarre choice of soundtrack: America the Beautiful.

To mark the launch, the Chinese space agency and China Central Television (CCTV) released a proud animation, set to rousing orchestral strains, of the "Heavenly Palace" thrusting skyward, lofting above the Earth and docking with a Shenzhou crew capsule.

The only problem being that the backing music in question is America the Beautiful – more or less an unofficial national anthem of the United States. The Guardian spotted the blunder after picking up the video from the Reuters news agency while covering the launch.

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Oct 2011 13:48

^^ For those who couldn't catch it, try watching the NDTV big fight on "Who is India's enemy No 1: Pak or China"?

Edit : Found the link : http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bi ... dia/212468. Enjoy!

Very interesting discussion on how the Chinese should be responded to ( TSP seems a foregone conclusion these days) and the gap between the diplomats and military was obvious even in the show with the MEA folks ( Ronen sen, Arundhati Ghose ) calling for calm while military men ( retd Maj Gen) calling to stop the pussy-footing...

Arundhati Ghose made a point which struck home a lot. She said that the GoI knows about giving China a tough message but is held back by the business community which deosnt want to anger China since they are making their $$ from China and so GoI always takes the business view and backs off...

So, its the damn businessmen again ( Just like how they caused GoI to back off from Parakram etc)

nitinr · Post by **nitinr** » 03 Oct 2011 13:40

^^
was a good watch yesterday..
Also a point by Brajesh Mishra as to there are no friends of India. Exact Quote " I look around and dont see any friends of India"
Says a lot. We cannot do it alone. We need to reach out and both diplomatically and millitarily to thwart the dangers looming.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Oct 2011 14:07

sum wrote: So, its the damn businessmen again ( Just like how they caused GoI to back off from Parakram etc)

That is what prevents US taking any action against China because of business reasons.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Oct 2011 14:22

Where Goes the Sino-Russian Arms Relationship?

China has been one of Russia's best export customers for weapons, but it is a relationship neither side feels entirely comfortable with.

One example is that China bought Russian fighters – strengthening relations – then built copies of them – creating tensions between Beijing and Moscow.

A new report by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (Sipri) suggests more difficulties are ahead. In releasing the new document, “China’s Energy and Security Relations with Russia: Hopes, Frustrations and Uncertainties,” Paul Holtom, the director of the the institute’s arms transfers program says "Russia is unwilling to provide China with advanced weapons and technology primarily because it is concerned that China will copy Russian technology and compete with Russia on the international arms market.” And, he adds, “the nature of the arms transfer relationship will increasingly be characterized by competition rather than cooperation.”

A turning point came in 2005, the report states, when China moved from importing complete systems, with China becoming more reliant on its own industry and imports from Russia dropping. In 2010, imports had fallen drastically to the lowest level since 1998.

That does not mean deals have dried up. China is still interested in the S-400 air defense system and Il-476 transport – two areas its own developments are lagging.

Sipri analysts also see other areas where Russia will remain a critical supplier, including long-range strike and tanker aircraft, as well as high-performance ship-launched land-attack missiles, mainly because China's industry still lags.

Sipri argues that “China has been unable to substantially diversify its arms and military technology suppliers. There are thus opportunities for Russia to remain China’s primary foreign arms supplier, although there are questions as to whether Russia is willing and able to meet China’s changing demands for transfers of technology and components rather than finished weapons systems.”

But there are obstacles also from the Chinese side. Sipri points to Chinese frustration over delays and poor quality of some imports from Russia.

What is more, China also is working with other former Soviet states to gets its arms supplied, such as Ukraine. Sipri notes that “the volume of planned Chinese purchases of Ukrainian arms and military equipment during 2010–12 is approximately $1.2 billion, compared with $1.5 billion for all of 2002–2009.”

Still, perhaps the most critical aspect of the arms relationship between Russia and China will be the status of the U.S. and European Union arms embargos against Beijing.

Sipri points out that “national export control agencies of EU member states have interpreted the EU arms embargo flexibly, particularly with regard to dual-use products and technologies. For example, EU member states issued export licences worth more than €210 million and exported at least €58 million worth of military equipment to China in 2009. Additionally, the PLA has drawn on transfers of civilian technologies from EU member states and resulting improvements in Chinese civilian industry.”

So the biggest threat of Russian arms exports to China could be the EU, rather than the state of the bilateral relationship between Moscow and Beijing.

Asked recently about arms sales to Beijing, Ian King, BAE Systems chief executive says he does not see the arms embargo against China lasting in perpetuity.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 03 Oct 2011 20:14

Austin wrote:Where Goes the Sino-Russian Arms Relationship?

So the biggest threat of Russian arms exports to China could be the EU, rather than the state of the bilateral relationship between Moscow and Beijing.

Asked recently about arms sales to Beijing, Ian King, BAE Systems chief executive says he does not see the arms embargo against China lasting in perpetuity.

This quote should be put in MMRCA thread and highlighted. This quote goes to proove that europeans are just offering the illusions of strategic and 5th partnership crap to sell their wares. This applies to a recent offer by one of the vendors, which said that they will not supply the Porkis any more weapon system. It should be clear that we should look at MMRCA as a purely seller-buyer transaction.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 03 Oct 2011 22:14

It has been fashionable with a section of north-atlantic strategists, to potray the Sino-Soviet relationship as one which will eventually rupture.

For example consider the following
Sino-Russian Relations: Renewal or Decay of a Strategic Partnership? -- Jamestown foundation Dated 30-Sept-2011
Or
China-russia relations and the united states: at a turning point? -- Second line of Defense. Dated 12-April-2011

Another example was the article "Where Goes the Sino-Russian Arms Relationship", posted by Austin in this forum just recently.

Basically all of them tread the same path
1) China and Russia have not had developed a deeper energy cooperation despite having a shared border and Russia being the world's largest oil and gas producer.
2) Russia does not want to become a raw materials provider to China. Something which India also does not want to do.
3) The myth that russia has not sold china some of its most cutting-edge weapon systems or that russia has supplied only naval weapon systems to China.

All of them fail if one just digs deeper.
Yes Russia is the worlds largest supplier of oil and gas. But unlike Iran or Saudi Arabia or Iraq, it does not have spare production capacity. All of its oil is contracted out in long term contracts to countries other than China. Russia is the biggest gas provider in the world, but it is more of a gas hub, which buys gas from central Asia nations and then adds this gas to its own production. The result is that it is the biggest gas supplier of the world. Now Central asian nations had till recently no direct means to supply gas to the major international markets. But Central Asian nations do not need Russia to transit gas to China, they share a border with china.

Russia refused to sell SU-33 naval fighters to China because of IP and copyright issues. So it has denied naval weapon systems to China. Russia has sold SU-30MK to China, which can hardly be classified as naval fighters. If Indian SU-30MKI will be countered by any aircraft over PRC landmass then it will be by Russian made SU-30MK. Further if any of our fighters get shot down by Chinese AA or SA then it will most probably be one of the Russian S-300 kits supplied to Chinese. So let us keep things in perspective when we claim that russia has not supplied weapon systems which have not tilted the balance in favor of China.

Further none of the same sentiments are reflected in any Russian paper or article or analysis. All of these analysis have their origin somewhere in the north Atlantic basin. Predominantly in the USofA. All relationships have ups and down. Iran till a few decades ago was the best friend and the local policeman for USofA, look at it now. So whether these articles actually are a longing for a rupture in sino-russian relationship or something else remains to be seen. After all to imagine that Sino-Russian relationship will rupture over SU-33 IP issues or failure to agree on gas pricing is well day dreaming.

Both of these countries have a vested interest in having good relations. Peace with Russia gives China the ability to concentrate on its three most important borders,
1) Taiwan
2) The McMohan line with India
3) South-China Sea.
For Russia it assures a safe rear and allows it to concentrate its forces west or Urals. There are sections in both the countries which feel oppressed and stymied in by north Atlantic countries. They have not been able to grow their trade and investment much, but hell India-Russia have also been unable to do the same. And all of these commentators claim that Russia-India relationship is more fruitful compared to Sino-Russian relationship.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 04 Oct 2011 15:58

sum wrote: Arundhati Ghose made a point which struck home a lot. She said that the GoI knows about giving China a tough message but is held back by the business community which deosnt want to anger China since they are making their $$ from China and so GoI always takes the business view and backs off...

Just asking. Which businessman/industry has their best interests in china and at the same time influential enough to change GOI's policy?

PS: I came across this link - http://business.mapsofindia.com/trade-r ... china.html. Looks nothing significant to me.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 Oct 2011 22:49

^^^^

The limits of foreign-policy harmonization between China and Russia are also visible in South Asia, where the two governments have adopted divergent positions on critical issues. For instance, despite the recent improvement in Chinese-Indian relations, Russia’s ties with New Delhi still remain much stronger than those between China and India. Persistent border disputes, differences over India’s growing security ties with the United States, competition over energy supplies, and other sources of Sino-Indian tensions have consistently impeded realization of the vision of a Moscow-Beijing-New Delhi axis that has periodically arisen over the past decade, especially when Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov visited New Delhi in 1998.

The Russian military has begun to cite China’s growing military potential as a reason why Russia needs to acquire more warships and retain tactical nuclear weapons (TNWs) despite U.S. pressure to negotiate their elimination in the next round of the strategic arms talks. It is difficult to sustain a major conventional military force in the Russian Far East, but TNWs can help compensate for shortages in numbers. The Commander in Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky, has also cited Beijing’s interest in the Arctic as a reason to field a larger fleet. (Russian strategists often describe control over the Arctic region as a vital national interest and fundamental for sustaining Russia’s great power status in the 21st century). Until recently, Russian analysts were confident about maintaining military superiority over China for at least the next decade, but recent displays of growing Chinese defense capabilities, combined with a more confrontational manifestation of Chinese diplomacy, appear to be causing the same unease in Russia as in other countries.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 05 Oct 2011 01:39

China engages in cyber spying: US lawmaker

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Oct 2011 13:32

Russian FSB Arrest Chinese Spying for S-300 data

The investigation revealed that a Chinese citizen on the instructions of the PRC Ministry of State Security under the guise of a translator of official delegations attempted to obtain from Russian citizens for a cash consideration of technological and repair documentation on anti-aircraft missile system S-300, containing a state secret, "- said in a statement.

FSB said that a citizen of the PRC is charged with attempted espionage (part 3 of Article 30 and Article 276 of Criminal Code).

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 05 Oct 2011 13:35

First time i am reading such a news of russia arresting china spy

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Oct 2011 14:01

krishnan wrote:First time i am reading such a news of russia arresting china spy

krishnan , not the first time and certainly wont be the last

Some previous nabs by FSB of Russian/Chinese citizen spying for china.

Russia arrests Chinese 'spy'

The Russian authorities are reported to have arrested a Chinese man who was allegedly carrying secret papers relating to Russian submarines.It says he was trying to smuggle classified material out of Russia -- including plans of a Russian submarine based on the Kamchatka peninsula on Russia's Pacific coast.

2 Scientists Held in Murky Spy Case

The duo, who worked at Baltic State Technical University and specialized in gas dynamics, the study of the motion of gases and its effects, are accused of passing sensitive information that could damage Russia's national security to unidentified Chinese citizens, Ekho Moskvy radio reported Sept. 14.

Reshetin sentenced to 11.5 years for passing technology to China

Igor Reshetin, the chief executive of Tsniimash-Export, a producer of rockets and missiles working closely with the Russian Space Agency, was found guilty on all charges, including smuggling intellectual property and misappropriating funds.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 05 Oct 2011 18:11

Army chief Gen V KSingh says around 4,000 Chinese, including members of People's Liberation Army, are present in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.

In May this year, Indian intelligence agencies said they had credible evidence of their own that several hundred of the Chinese working in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir are People's Liberation Army engineers. They are in the process of verifying if these Chinese military engineers are engaged in some sort of military construction like bunkers. Read the report in the Times of India.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Oct 2011 23:30

Can any thing be done regarding the presense of 4000 troops in POK by India or can Pakistan claim they are within sovereign right to ask PLA for help and their presence in POK.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 06 Oct 2011 00:21

Austin wrote:Can any thing be done regarding the presense of 4000 troops in POK by India or can Pakistan claim they are within sovereign right to ask PLA for help and their presence in POK.

short of invading PoK , unfortunately no . Just like we are free to invite any nation to set up military bases within territory under our control.

What we can do is make a few noises from pseudo govt. sources about us being well aware of the number and positions of PLA soldiers in the area and in case of a shooting match for whatever reason , they are as likely to meet their 72 as are their terrorist brothers.