LCA News and Discussions

[Multatuli]

I propose leveling the areas in Slumabad, Pindi and Lawhore were the RAPE's and military elite live, in addition to the target list Singha gave. Strategic bombers filled with dumb boms would be ideal for this job of killing the RAPE's and destroying their homes.

BTW, excellent thinking Singha sahab.

[Kartik]

Just saw on TV - LCA FOC delayed by a year. Sigh.

So the FOC will be by 2013 i suppose ?

per Shiv Aroor, FOC will be Dec 2012 now..but wasn't it always going to be Dec 2012 anyway? Something wonky in the understanding of what FOC meant because there was no way on earth that the Tejas Mk1 was going to reach FOC by Dec 2011..

[AdityaEngineer]

Everyone knew there will be delay in FOC but so as to find the reason for delay we need to find what does the FOC mean?Firing and final verification of A to A missile,dropping dumb bombs,LGB,AoA Figure of 21 ,night attack trials,all weather test,CMDS system testing,lightning protection system,RADAR tests,elec jamming tests,(sorry if left anything)=What has been done and what is left?

[krishnan]

We dont known whether they have integrated the radar yet

[Gurneesh]

The next R73 trials in Goa are supposed to be radar guided.

[sum]

The next R73 trials in Goa are supposed to be radar guided.

And when would that be ( timeframe)?

[Gurneesh]

^^^ Was posted a few pages back...
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 470918.ece

During the second phase of the weapon trials, slated to begin by mid-October at the naval airbase INS Hansa in Goa, Vympel R-73 air-to-air close combat missile will be test-fired from a Tejas aircraft. Coming up for the LCA after the weapon trials will be a swift hot-and-cold weather trial in which an aircraft taking off from Jaisalmer will fly straight to Leh, where it will have a series of flight trials. “It is likely to take place by November-end or in the first week of December,” the source said.

I do remember reading about the radar thing somewhere but cannot find it now

[Aditya_V]

The next R73 trials in Goa are supposed to be radar guided.

But arent all R-73's IR guided?

R-73 (missile)

he R-73 is an infrared-guided (heat-seeking) missile with a sensitive, cryogenic cooled seeker with a substantial "off-boresight" capability: the seeker can "see" targets up to 60° off the missile's centerline.

[Gurneesh]

But it will still need radar to track and achieve lockon before firing wouldn't it ?

[ranjithnath]

for lock on before launch mode the IR seeker of the missile acquires the target , not the radar.you can actually go the other way around, use the IR seeker of the missile to track a target.AFAIK thats why the french are considering dropping the IR band from their OSF NG and use MICA's IR instead.

[Nikhil T]

TOI: Tejas wont become operational before 2013

NEW DELHI: The largely homegrown Tejas fighter is still to fight its way out of the doldrums. The jet will not become fully-operational anytime before 2013, a full three decades after the LCA (light combat aircraft) project was first sanctioned in 1983.

IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, responding to questions on Monday, remarked the Tejas LCA's operational clearance had been delayed by almost a year, without elaborating any further.

This indicates the actual induction of the first 40 Tejas jets will begin only towards end-2013 at the earliest, and the first two squadrons will be up and running at the Sulur airbase (Tamil Nadu) only by 2015 or so.

As per revised timelines drawn up after several cost and time-overruns, Tejas was to get the initial operational clearance (IOC) in December 2010, which basically signifies the aircraft is fully airworthy.

This was to be followed by an "intermediate clearance stage'' by December 2011. And finally, the fighter was to get the final operational clearance (FOC), when all weapon and other systems are fully-integrated into the platform, by December 2012.

Defence ministry sources on Tuesday admitted there had been slippages in the intermediate clearance stage for the lightweight, multi-role fighter after it got the IOC last January. "It will not be possible before May-June 2012 now, So just a 6 month delay then? which in turn is likely to delay the FOC beyond December 2012. The LCA prototypes could not fly much over the last four-five months due to some technical reasons as well as monsoons,'' said a source.

DRDO, however, contends Tejas, which has "all the features of a fourth-generation fighter'', will cross the FOC barrier as planned. "Certification is a long-drawn process. It does not mean there are delays. We are very hopeful Tejas will get the FOC in December 2012,'' said a senior DRDO official.
Very interesting that DRDO and MoD differ on whether there will be a delay.

India certainly needs to develop its own advanced weapon systems like fighters, instead of being yoked to foreign imports which make it strategically vulnerable. But the LCA project underlines the fact that a complete rethink is needed on how to run critical indigenous defence projects.

Its overall developmental cost, including the naval variant and trainer as well as the Kaveri engine, for instance, will go up to Rs 17,269 crore by 2018 from the initial Rs 560 crore earmarked for it in 1983. With each Tejas to cost around Rs 200 crore over and above this, India will eventually end up spending well over Rs 25,000 crore on the programme.

Moreover, Tejas is still only around 60% indigenous. The fighter, for instance, is powered by American GE engines, with the indigenous Kaveri engine failing to pass muster for it despite Rs 2,839 crore being spent on it since 1989.

India has inked a $822 million contract for 99 General Electric's F-414 engines, with an option to go for another 49 engines at a later stage, to power the Tejas Mark-II version. While the first 20 Tejas will be powered by GE-404 engines, the next six Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each) will have the new more powerful GE F-414 engines.

[vic]

In the air strike against Iraq nuclear reactor (Orirak ? raid) the Israeli F-16As flew around 1200km one way and then back by shorter route (around 1000km?) with external fuel tanks and 2000kg of iron bombs. If F-16A is assumed to have extreme strike range of 1000km then with better fuel fraction, more modern engines, I would put LCA strike range in similar configuration around 1200-1400km and Mark-2 around 1800-2000km

[abhishek-nayak]

@NIKHIL T

A very sad development indeed.The sad fact of the matter is that even the MK2 version will become obsolete before it completes it's 10th anniversary.Looking at brighter side i think tejas was a good learning experience.I personally don't think that AMCA or other future aircrafts would not meet the same fate as LCA.

[Gaur]

^^
Obsolescence depends upon your adversary's equipment. Considering that Pak & China would be operating many 4th gen fighters for at least a few decades, LCA will be useful for a long time.

[Kanson]

@NIKHIL T

A very sad development indeed.The sad fact of the matter is that even the MK2 version will become obsolete before it completes it's 10th anniversary.Looking at brighter side i think tejas was a good learning experience.I personally don't think that AMCA or other future aircrafts would not meet the same fate as LCA.

I said this before. Whichever aircraft is getting inducted during the time of MMRCA will have similar features & capabilities of that. Super-30 upgrade to Su-30MKI is in that direction. And i said before LCA-Mk2 once inducted will be rubbing shoulders with MMRCA. The timeframe of MMRCA induction, FOC of LCA MK2 and Super-30 upgrade are all around 2014.

Being home grown aircraft, LCA need not have to wait for any agreement or approval with foreign agencies to keep it up to date. The word obsolete is obsolete as far as Tejas is concerned. Even at the present configuration, it is far ahead.

[shiv]

The B-52 had its first flight in 1952. It will stay in service for the foreseeable future - for over 60 years.

MiG 21 had its first flight in 1955. It will be in service with some air forces till 2020.

Super Etendard first flew 1974: Due to keep flying till 2015 - 40 years

F-16 first flew in 1974 It will stay on in some form or another till 2030. Will likely exceed 50 years

F-18 first flight 1978. It will stay on for another 20 years - till 2030

The Chinese Q-5 development of the MiG 19 flew in the mid 1950s ad is still in service with the PLAAF. nearly 300 are still in service as per Wiki,

The Jaguar first flew in 1968. It will be re engined because it has half its airframe life still unused and will stay on till 2020 at least - 50 plus years

The Northrop F-5 first flew in 1959. It is still in service with the Swiss Air force in 2011. 52 years and counting.

Aircrfat are not designed to be like shoes. 40 to 60 years has become "commonplace". Many of you and probably I will be dead before the LCA is retired. Many aircraft flying today were already flying before I was born. Do not predict something else's demise so easily

[Nikhil T]

6 months is not a huge delay by any chance. They can make it up in production if they want, so the date of say the induction of the 2nd MKII squadron will remain the same. Of course, no one knows if that is going to be the case.

I said this before. Whichever aircraft is getting inducted during the time of MMRCA will have similar features & capabilities of that. Super-30 upgrade to Su-30MKI is in that direction. And i said before LCA-Mk2 once inducted will be rubbing shoulders with MMRCA. The timeframe of MMRCA induction, FOC of LCA MK2 and Super-30 upgrade are all around 2014.

FOC of MK2 is not possible in 2014 when the FOC of MKI will be in Mid-2013. AFAIK the MK2 design was frozen in July this year, the first flight of MK2 can be in early 2014 at best and that would be a stretch too. Even if the airframe is not going to be substantially changed, the new engine, the radar and the expanded inlets will need to be tested.

Being home grown aircraft, LCA need not have to wait for any agreement or approval with foreign agencies to keep it up to date. The word obsolete is obsolete as far as Tejas is concerned. Even at the present configuration, it is far ahead.

Depends what you're comparing with. MiG-21's ? Yes. F-16 block 50/52 ? Nope. But we're getting there.

[shiv]

Exactly what are the similarities between LCA and F-16?

[suryag]

I dont think LCA MK2 will make first flight by 2013 so FOC by 2014 is highly unlikely. If we have LCA MK1 FOC'ed by Dec2012 that in itself would be a great achievement given they have slipped on every deadline until now IF LSP6/7/8 fly by the end of the year that will be a great achievement too

[Austin]

ADA tries to give optimistic schedules understandably to avoid any negative picture for delays etc .the IAF would be more conservative when dealing with this since it would have a good idea how much of testing these would require and other challenges and puts a conservative estimate on FOC.

Didnt P Rajkumar say this some time back

By when do you see these changes being completed and the LCA Mk-2 taking to the air with the GE-F414 engine?

I will be extremely happy if the LCA Mk-2 flies by 2015 and all these changes are completed in the next five years. If they are changes in chord of wing and length of fuselage, then the FCS will also need changes. All these would again require flight testing, though not as extensive as that of the LCA Mk-1. This will require a flight test schedule that will take 2 to 2.5 years in my opinion. The LCA Mk-2 would then attain operational capability by 2018 and enter operational service with the IAF by 2020. If we can achieve this, it would be commendable.

[narayana]

May be the delay is a mask to increase the numbers of MMRCA to somewhere around 200

[srai]

As per earlier reports (and AM Rajkumar), LCA MK.2's first flight will occur around 2015 with the IOC being achieved around 2018 timeframe. FOC will be 2020.

...
By when do you see these changes being completed and the LCA Mk-2 taking to the air with the GE-F414 engine?

I will be extremely happy if the LCA Mk-2 flies by 2015 and all these changes are completed in the next five years. If they are changes in chord of wing and length of fuselage, then the FCS will also need changes. All these would again require flight testing, though not as extensive as that of the LCA Mk-1. This will require a flight test schedule that will take 2 to 2.5 years in my opinion. The LCA Mk-2 would then attain operational capability by 2018 and enter operational service with the IAF by 2020. If we can achieve this, it would be commendable.
...

[Vivek K]

2020 is ridiculous. Mk1 is adequate for the threat levels in the vicinity and should be produced in numbers. This is the same as the Arjun garbage we are treated to every day in the name of national security. The airforce and the DRDO have together let the nation down.

[narayana]

There is no official statement or press release from ADA on weapon testing status/result.I checked ADA website also,but no info,Hope that the tests were successful.

No info at Anantha krsihnan blog also

[Drishyaman]

A very sad development indeed.The sad fact of the matter is that even the MK2 version will become obsolete before it completes it's 10th anniversary.

A very careless statement indeed !! Suggest, you do some home work before making such comment

Whichever aircraft is getting inducted during the time of MMRCA will have similar features & capabilities of that. Super-30 upgrade to Su-30MKI is in that direction. And i said before LCA-Mk2 once inducted will be rubbing shoulders with MMRCA.

+1
This is a very valid point.

[Pratyush]

Is the Mk1 so inferior that it has to be limited to 40 air-crafts only? Why more cannot be built and inducted while the Mk2 takes shape.

[Drishyaman]

^^ Why more than 40 MK1 is required when MK2 is around the corner ? If serial production for MK1 starts, HAL will be able to finish those by 2016 (appox). After that serial production MK2 can start. Why would someone like to continue serial production of MK1 during that time?

[abhishek-nayak]

^^
Obsolescence depends upon your adversary's equipment. Considering that Pak & China would be operating many 4th gen fighters for at least a few decades, LCA will be useful for a long time.

In the future war scenario it's highly unlikely that China will use Q5 or Q7.The Chinese will most probably use J-10,J-11,S-30 & SU 27 or the fearsome J20 against whom Tejas is no match.

[abhishek-nayak]

@NIKHIL T

I said this before. Whichever aircraft is getting inducted during the time of MMRCA will have similar features & capabilities of that. Super-30 upgrade to Su-30MKI is in that direction. And i said before LCA-Mk2 once inducted will be rubbing shoulders with MMRCA. The timeframe of MMRCA induction, FOC of LCA MK2 and Super-30 upgrade are all around 2014.

Being home grown aircraft, LCA need not have to wait for any agreement or approval with foreign agencies to keep it up to date. The word obsolete is obsolete as far as Tejas is concerned. Even at the present configuration, it is far ahead.

LCA Mk2 is still very much if's and butts.Seeing the work at HAL myself it's highly unlikely that MK2 will get FOC by 2014.

[Lalmohan]

what exactly is so "fearsome" about the J20?

[Drishyaman]

In the future war scenario it's highly unlikely that China will use Q5 or Q7.The Chinese will most probably use J-10,J-11,S-30 & SU 27 or the fearsome J20 against whom Tejas is no match.

Taking into account, your scenario

Tejas MK2 will be more than a match for the J-10. Rest assured please.
MMRCA will be better than J-11. Guaranteed.
Any given day Super Sukhoi will be much better than Su-30 MKK or Su-27. A Better Option.
And for the fearsome J20, there will be fearless AMCA and FGFA. Cutting edge.

[Drishyaman]

LCA Mk2 is still very much if's and butts.Seeing the work at HAL myself it's highly unlikely that MK2 will get FOC by 2014.

Seems like you want to quote in your every post that you had been a student trainee at HAL. Ok Ok, I get your point.
On a serious note, in which year you had been training with them ?
Were you able to see the Tejas development as well with your own eyes ?

[Philip]

One doesn't like being a prophet,but for years now I've been saying that the LCA might end up like the HF-24 with only about the same number of aircraft finally built.From its start 1983,we are almost 30 years on,and to imagine that we will only have the Mk-2 in service by 2020 is simply terrible.As newer and far more capable aircraft come into service-like the MMRCA and FGFA,the LCA will look les attractive especially as HAL's production rate will simply be inadequate to meet the IAF's demandsIn retrospect,what seems to me to have crippled the development of the aircraft has primarily been the engine.Here,it was long obvious that the Kaveri would not meet the challenge,yet the fable was repeated ad nauseum that it was just round the corner for a decade+.Some may remember a few years ago my conversation with a former AM familiar with the project,who described it as a "fraud against the nation",listing chapter and verse how it was being treated like an unwanted baby,especially by those at the top.

Secondly,the end-user the IAF was deliberately kept out of the loop for a long while .It was not really interested and the DRDO/ADA spent a lot of money without worthwhile resuts.BRites may remember about 4 Aero-India's ago at a BR meet,our first cosmonaut Rakesh Sharma,then a G.Capt. I think, who part of the LCA test pilots team,when asked how it was faring ,remarked that since all present "patriots",said that a huge amount of testing was required,especially weapons testing and that it was a long way from inducton.

It was only when the Sino-Pak JF-17 began to show shape,that the programme got the knee-jerk attention it deserved and a "full-court-press" involving all stakeholders began in earnest.We then had a huge delay in choosing the MK-2 engine and MK-1 meeting only limited parameters has itself been unduly delayed ,thanks to delays in its testing regime.If we go back examining the many schedules reported by official spokesmen time and again,it would end up as a thick document! Had this happened in Putin's Russia,those in charge would've been sacked a long time ago.He had no qualms about sacking a celebrated missile/rocket scientist put in charge of the sub-launched Bulava missile.The missile is now had several successful test launches and is reortedly in service with Russia's latest SSBN.In India regretfully,as Count Galeazzo Ciano,MUssolini's son-in-law famously said,"victory has a hundred fathers,defeat is an orphan".

[Anujan]

LCA Mk2 is still very much if's and butts.Seeing the work at HAL myself it's highly unlikely that MK2 will get FOC by 2014.

Then you undeniably have the upper hand in such matters.

[Austin]

what exactly is so "fearsome" about the J20?

You mean what is so Dhoti Shivering about it , The black colour that gives it stealth

[abhishek-nayak]

what exactly is so "fearsome" about the J20?

You mean what is so Dhoti Shivering about it , The black colour that gives it stealth

China stole the classified B2 stealth technology from USA,that's the dhoti shivering thing about it.It is also believed that they have also stolen some critical technologies related to F22

[Drishyaman]

China stole the classified B2 stealth technology from USA,that's the dhoti shivering thing about it.It is also believed that they have also stolen some critical technologies related to F22

Now, that is some real dhoti shivering or rather dhoti wetting news!!
So, what more news you have ? Panda version of B2 on drawing board ? When will it fly for the first time ?
Panda has not been able to successfully copy the RD - 93 and AL - 31 engine despite license producing or dissecting it for so many years.
What critical technologies related to F22 has been stolen (if you can quote some) by Panda ? Are they able to successfully implement that ?
Stealing / Buying is something and successfully implementing that technology to their product is again a different story.

[Bharadwaj]

what exactly is so "fearsome" about the J20?

You mean what is so Dhoti Shivering about it , The black colour that gives it stealth

Be serious now-A flying tug boat does make for a scary sight.

[Austin]

Wrong thread but some one should understand that Stealth Technology is no silver bullet and all previous wars have shown that Stealth Aircraft were used after significantly degrading electronically and physically destroying enemy AD , so much of Stealth as silver bullet platform.

Even a well trained sam operator Col like Zoltan Dani under severe NATO strikes could still down stealthy F-117 and F-16 using a 60's sam , How many of us are aware of this.?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani

Lets not understimate well trained crew on SAM operators with favourable AD and Air Control they can do much greater wonders stealth or not.

[member_19648]

LCA Mk2 is still very much if's and butts.Seeing the work at HAL myself it's highly unlikely that MK2 will get FOC by 2014.

Looks like people are very eager to jump the gun and join the Bandwagon of HAL/DRDO/Indic bashing anytime there is some negative news propping out. The point has already been stated that the work culture in HAL is shoddy and we have got that. Why reiterate it again and again, some meaningful info in this regard would help better.

Coming back to HAL/DRDO, they have given you weapons/fighters to fight 3 wars and win them, they are doing that till now. What have most of us really done in terms of contribution, today everyone is interested in joining some foreign company and when it comes to Indian industry, it's always someone else's job. And if that job is not done correctly, blame him till he drops dead. We should really learn to take responsibilities rather than blaming others for the paralyzed system.

The work environment in DRDO/HAL is far better now, in erstwhile decades, you can't even imagine the conditions in which top scientists in India used to work there. You had tall grasses propped up in dilapidated hangars where they used to work day in night outs! Even the toilets were pathetic, so much for aiding research, yet some of the great minds in India worked there to give us competitive arms when no one in this world would help you out even with a pie. They didn't complain as you are doing now. By uttering these things, we are demeaning the sacrifice and hard work put by those men. Same was the case for ISRO/DRDO. India wasn't rich then, even till the 00s research was a luxury and the whole mantra was fighting poverty/illiteracy. Now she is better off, funding is coming only NOW, it will be years till better facilities and processes are put into place, it doesn't happen overnight.

And coming to Russia, as someone pointed here, I have lived there, and I can tell for sure, in Soviet era, the Russians would lie through their teeth. They are a closed society and will always be like that. What is so great about Russian arms?? Has anyone here flown a mig-21?? There were cases where while ejecting, the hand of the pilot got stuck in loose wires and got severed. So long for quality control! The great weapon systems that people go gaga about had so many flaws which were never disclosed to the public, even the Russian people. Everything was kept a secret. Atleast in India, you get correct news, no matter how bitter it is!