Indian Military Aviation

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 08 Oct 2011 09:27

prithvi

Thanks a Ton

Hope Vishal is Around for some awesome pics,

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 08 Oct 2011 09:58

What is the signifcance of the colour schema in the Mig 29 pics?

The frames in the first four images are painted almost entirely in yellow, while in the fifth image, the yellow is restricted to the "spine" of the aircraft.

Does the colour represent the parts of the airframe that were replaced?

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 08 Oct 2011 11:39

^^ yellow surface is primer coating done prior to actual painting. its most probably epoxy zinc primer.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 08 Oct 2011 11:49

Boreas wrote:^^ yellow surface is primer coating done prior to actual painting. its most probably epoxy zinc primer.

But then why not on the entire airframe? Some spots (near the canopy) have been left out and the aircraft in the fifth picture only has a strip of yellow running along the hump.

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 08 Oct 2011 14:02

Composites, titanium, non-metal surfaces or RF invisible windows.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Oct 2011 14:09

Last lap of finalising the multi-billion MMRCA deal : IAF Chief

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 08 Oct 2011 14:55

@Boreas and Shalav

Thanks for the explanations gentlemen

Cheers

vic · Post by **vic** » 08 Oct 2011 15:54

Rahul M wrote:interesting comparison.

compare our army (the lesser helo operating force of Indian military) to their army (the major helo operating arm of pakis)

these are the numbers
IA : 220 (including 40 dhruv)
IAF : 287 + (about half medium to heavy weight)
both expanding rapidly.

PA : ~ 200 (40 AH-1 cobra, about 40-50 Mi-17 and puma and the rest utility helos like UH-1 variants and alouette II and III)
PAF : 10-15

I think that we should count helos of Indian Navy also which would also be around 100 or so, compared to miniscule amount with Pak Pigs. Also future it also bright

LUH + LOH = ~350
ALH+LCH= ~300
Mi-17s = ~160 followed by MLH around 300 to 400
NURAV=??
Heavy combat Helos = 20 to 60
Heavy lift Helos = 12 to 24
Naval medium lift helos 20 to 60

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Oct 2011 16:38

MiG crashes due to pilots' inexperience: IAF Chief

The Indian Air Force (IAF) on Saturday said most of the recent MiG-21 crashes have been caused due to inexperience of young pilots in handling the aircraft.

"Unfortunately except for one case, the other cases point towards inexperience of young pilots who were not been able to handle the landing and approach (of the aircraft)," IAF chief N A K Browne said here.

He was asked to comment on recent crashes of MiG-21 fighter aircraft this year including the one which crashed in Barmer district of Rajasthan on Friday.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 08 Oct 2011 17:00

RahulM da,
Most, if not all, of the helicopters operated by the IA are light helicopters, smostly chetaks and chetaks or thier variants, where as the PA operates medium heli's too.
Hence wouldn't they have an edge over the IA

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 08 Oct 2011 18:13

MiG crashes due to pilots' inexperience: IAF Chief

If it is so, Wouldn't it have been prudent for IAF to let only veterans to fly the MiG-21s. Very rude statment even if he is trying to be politically correct.

Cheers....

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Oct 2011 18:46

neerajb wrote:
MiG crashes due to pilots' inexperience: IAF Chief
If it is so, Wouldn't it have been prudent for IAF to let only veterans to fly the MiG-21s. Very rude statment even if he is trying to be politically correct.

Cheers....

Who dosen't make mistakes? How will one become veteran without flying it?

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 08 Oct 2011 19:12

neerajb wrote:
MiG crashes due to pilots' inexperience: IAF Chief
If it is so, Wouldn't it have been prudent for IAF to let only veterans to fly the MiG-21s. Very rude statment even if he is trying to be politically correct.

Cheers....

Nothing remotely rude in the Air Chief's statement.

Perhaps he is being factually correct, and maybe you would like him to be politically correct.

If you read the article it makes clear that from Dec 2012 all Stage III training will be on the Hawk AJT, which is an easier aircraft to handle for inexperienced pilots.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 08 Oct 2011 19:25

Has the Mig 21 suddenly become more difficult to fly in this decade? was it as tough to handle Mig 21 in the past or not? when there was no Hawk AJT etc? have the flying characteristics of Mig 21 changed dramatically over the years? or is it a quality issue at pilot intake point?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 08 Oct 2011 20:16

manjgu wrote:Has the Mig 21 suddenly become more difficult to fly in this decade? was it as tough to handle Mig 21 in the past or not? when there was no Hawk AJT etc? have the flying characteristics of Mig 21 changed dramatically over the years? or is it a quality issue at pilot intake point?

more so a case of, change where risk absorption appetite is decreasing in training
plus now you have funds available to mitigate the risk due to advancement and access to better technology + methodology

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Oct 2011 20:49

manjgu wrote:Has the Mig 21 suddenly become more difficult to fly in this decade? was it as tough to handle Mig 21 in the past or not? when there was no Hawk AJT etc? have the flying characteristics of Mig 21 changed dramatically over the years? or is it a quality issue at pilot intake point?

Mig 21 crashes the sorties and no of crashes per year for Mig-21's were much higher in 1970's,80's,90's and early 2000's. It is a difficult aircraft to fly and it is not a new problem.

Its landing speed is much higher than Su-30,Mig-29,M-2000, Jaguar etc.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Oct 2011 20:58

For the second or third time in this thread let me post an article by a former MiG 21 pilot
MiG-21 Much Maligned
Please read it all, but let me quote one para

MiG-21, although a high demand aircraft, is docile and has no aerodynamic vices. It has excellent handling characteristics and has served to provide very valuable flying experience to a large number of IAF pilots. Some like the previous and the present CAS swear by the aircraft. It is the docility of the aircraft that not only generates a good bit of confidence but also encourages forays into exceeding the limits of the stipulated flight envelope. In air combat maneuvers, many inexperienced pilots have got into trouble without realizing it. At high angles of attack, the induced drag increases sharply and unless the angle of attack is quickly reduced, the aircraft develops a high rate of descent, which cannot be arrested with the power available (even with reheat). Added to this, there is no protest from the aircraft like severe shudder, wing rocking. etc, prevalent in other types of aircraft. This gives a feeling of well-being and a number of pilots did not recognize the danger in time to take recovery action or eject.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 08 Oct 2011 21:47

PSLV has accelerometers measuring the vehicles attitude in real time, if indeed the reason is pilots inexperience, then any deviation of the Mig-21 from the flight envelope can be measured and notified in the cockpit, an engine failure, stuck aileron, higher than normal rate of descent etc will also result in departure from safe flight envelope and hence instant pilot notification, in the case of landing and takeoff where the margin of error is nonexistent, the pilot will just eject on the first alarm of departure from safe flight envelope

On the Jaguar crash, how do some of analog sensors/controls from the 70's cope with high g turns? if they fail briefly will the pilot have to adjust to the new behavior of the flight? like the flight might be flipping even before it reached the limit for safely allowed turn radius for that speed and altitude?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Oct 2011 22:14

Bala Vignesh wrote:RahulM da,
Most, if not all, of the helicopters operated by the IA are light helicopters, smostly chetaks and chetaks or thier variants, where as the PA operates medium heli's too.
Hence wouldn't they have an edge over the IA

my reply here http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1176774

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Oct 2011 05:37

vasu_ray wrote: then any deviation of the Mig-21 from the flight envelope can be measured and notified in the cockpit,

"Notification" or the lack thereof is only part of the problem. Human beings have their own accelerometers in their heads (semicircular canals of the ear) that cause them to react differently and in many situations the pilot 's own sensory information cause disorientation. Human balancing mechanisms are designed to get a human upright, but the pilot has to use those same human sensors to give control inputs to the aircraft. For that he cannot always depend on his own senses and that is why pilots are trained to trust their instruments. Even so - a sudden violent change of attitude can throw a human off his orientation and even a half second delay in some circumstances may be fatal. Since it normally takes a human 0.2 seconds to react, 0.5 seconds is not much time for an aircraft at 500 knots (900 kmph/250 meters per sec) that suddenly flips over at 100 meters altitude. It can hit the ground in less than a second.

There was a fantastic article on pilot disorientation as a cause of crashes - I will try and locate it and re post. It may even exist in earlier pages of this thread. Such crashes will end up being called "Pilot error". Not because the pilot is "wrong" but because humans cannot cope with some situations causing them to make errors. That is why the SR-71 article that I posted in the Flight Safety thread has the pilot saying that flying is long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of terror. Even normal flying can have terrifying moments. Most of the time combat is nothing in comparison to that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Oct 2011 05:55

From page 1 of the flight safety thread on this forum
http://medind.nic.in/iab/t06/i2/iabt06i2p1.pdf

Read it all folks. It is very informative. It is worth understanding some basic things that ll aviators and flight safety people know.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Oct 2011 06:07

From the IAF
To Err is Human Case Reports of Two Military Aircraft Accidents-Possible mechanisms of human failure

It has been postulated that pilot error or in-flight incapacitation may be the main contributory factors to 70–80% of aircraft accidents. Two fatal aircraft accidents are presented in which either of the above possibilities may have played a role. The first case report describes an erroneous decision by a fighter pilot to use a seat position adjustment of the ejection seat leading to fatal injuries when he had to eject from his aircraft. Injuries to the body of the pilot, and observations on the state of his flying clothing and the ejection seat were used to postulate the mechanism of fatal injury and establish the cause of the accident. The second case report describes the sequence of events which culminated in the incapacitation of a fighter pilot while executing a routine manouevre. This resulted in a fatal air crash. Possible contributions of environmental factors which may have resulted in failure of his physiological mechanisms are discussed.

Read the whole article folks especially the details of the second accident. It makes terrible reading but this is day to day forensic medical work.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 09 Oct 2011 12:01

I saw the video of the Indian Air Force parade. I have to make a note of something. When I saw ACM Brown hold a salute, I saw a visible tremor of his right hand as he held it near the top of his forehead in a salute. Could it be the onset of Parkinson's disease? If so, I hope Brown won't be terribly afflicted.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 09 Oct 2011 12:26

I noticed the same.. Anyways these guys have an annual medical check up that they have to clear for continuing on the job and IIRC, they have to pass an medical examination that before being considered for the promotions at GSO levels. So if any thing serious is seen, they wouldn't have promoted him at all..

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 09 Oct 2011 12:44

Ohk so i was wathing this video on livefist
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/10/nd ... ig-21.html

Here at around 11:15 an engineering officer of the Air Force, whilst talking about the 57mm rockets says that they are used for Air to Air targets as well as Air to Ground target. Sounded like the primary role was air to air. Is that true?

This made me remember playing Microsoft Air Combat Simulator as a kid, there they used to attach a timed fuse rocket to my Spitfire which i had to release in the middle of a horde of German He bombers.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 09 Oct 2011 12:55

The documentary on Mig 21s is superb, but why do they show Hunters in the video-clip of 1971 if they are talking about Mig 21?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Oct 2011 13:42

atreya wrote:The documentary on Mig 21s is superb, but why do they show Hunters in the video-clip of 1971 if they are talking about Mig 21?

There is very little publicly available archival video footage from 1971. This video has shown almost all that is available while talking about those wars.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Oct 2011 15:41

The Mig-21 Documentary by NDTV is simply superb ,should be one of all time great documentary on IAF Mig-21. Kudos to NDTV.

The most interesting part of information I found was the HMD was integrated with Radar and Sensors ( WVR IR sensor ) , My impression was that with Bison the FOV was limited to only R-73 IR ball sensor that would see the target as the HMD move (as bison lack IRST ) and one would fire at the target.

The Radar being integrated is interesting since this capability AFAIK existed with Mig-29 and above, A radar sensor looking at the target along with IR sensor of R-73 would practically allow both R-77 and R-73 firing solution at the target instantly if it falls in the FOV of HMD and IR Sensor.

Plus the mentioned that Kopyo auto-locks the target instantly making WVR engagement interesting.

Its good to see IAF pilots still swear by Mig-21 , FWIW i am told by a Bison pilot that in many DACT between Bison and Su-30 for WVR duel the Bison wins most of the time

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Oct 2011 16:53

TV india was talking of a new 5000cr plan proposed by IAF to protect delhi incl stationing of a su30 squadron near delhi.
not sure if this is official or just grapevine they picked up. the only place close to delhi is hindon - home of the C130 and perhaps some Mig29 on alert-takeoff duty to check airspace violations over protected areas in NCR.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Oct 2011 16:56

ok I guess its official - a politically directed waste imo - the mig29 or bison can do this just as well, its just the politicians wanting the prestige of the bigger dog guarding their hut.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sukho ... hi/854512/

Sukhois, radar network to secure skies over Delhi

Delhi is poised to get five Sukhoi aircraft and half-a-dozen surface-to-air missile launchers.

Delhi is poised to get five Sukhoi aircraft and half-a-dozen surface-to-air missile launchers backed by a network of interception radars to guard itself from hijacked or rogue aircraft being used for suicide attacks. Defence ministry officials said that the ministry will soon approach the Cabinet Committee on Security for approval for an initial Rs 5,000 crore to “weaponise and strengthen the Joint Command & Analysis Centre at Delhi”.

The annual operational expense has been pegged at Rs 540 crore, they said.

The officials said that the JCAC weaponisation programme had been cleared by a committee of secretaries last November with a direction to the defence ministry to work out the details in consultation with the home ministry.

The defence ministry’s proposal comes nine years after it was mooted in March 2003 following the 9/11 attacks. A JCAC comprising IAF and civil aviation officials had been established, but the quick-response air defence system is yet to be set up

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Oct 2011 16:58

anyone noticed the 'toy' beside the sikh AVM at 6:00 ?

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 09 Oct 2011 17:04

Yes our very own tejas!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Oct 2011 17:55

Austin wrote:The Mig-21 Documentary by NDTV is simply superb ,should be one of all time great documentary on IAF Mig-21. Kudos to NDTV.

+1

I want to do at least a voice over English translation of that. Maybe easier than subtitling.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 09 Oct 2011 19:46

What a waste of precious resources.. And as it is I believe hindon houses a squadron of bisons just for this reason..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Oct 2011 20:19

^^^Hindon used to be a fighter base. But with urbanisation of Ghaziabad and development of human settlement, the scare of bird hits became so large, that IAF moved the fighters out of the base. IIRC, the was a case of an abbatoir being located somewhere close to the base and this led of huge concentration of birds.

Another thing - this 5,000 crore budget seems to really high. I mean, that is USD 1 billion - It seems that we are talking about gold plated level of AD coverage and I have a feeling that this budget may be a cover for elements of BMD as well. There are at least five to six small and large AF bases around NCR -with THD 1955 and Troposcatters and AD Missiles. Guess, all of them will get new equipment. And very strong C3I component.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Oct 2011 20:31

rohitvats wrote:^^^Hindon used to be a fighter base. But with urbanisation of Ghaziabad and development of human settlement, the scare of bird hits became so large, that IAF moved the fighters out of the base. IIRC, the was a case of an abbatoir being located somewhere close to the base and this led of huge concentration of birds.

I visited and stayed at Hindon in its heyday when my cousin Suresh was there. That was the year "Mera Naam Joker" was released and I saw it somewhere nearby. There were MiG 21s and Hunters at the base then and I had a whale of a time

Particularly thrilling for me was the "thump-whoooom" of the MiG afterburner kicking in just before takeoff. That was the time when the cost of each aircraft was painted on its nose. As a schoolboy I was all over the base - inside I mean.

arya · Post by **arya** » 09 Oct 2011 21:21

Rahul M wrote:anyone noticed the 'toy' beside the sikh AVM at 6:00 ?

yes Sir every Jingo noticed

[our own Jangi Taiyara-ye Kafir ]

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 09 Oct 2011 22:16

shiv wrote:That was the time when the cost of each aircraft was painted on its nose.

I distinctly remember "147 lakh" painted on the nose of a MiG-21 in one of the movies. Could be Vijeta but not sure.

Cheers....

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 09 Oct 2011 23:18

Rahul M wrote:anyone noticed the 'toy' beside the sikh AVM at 6:00 ?

He was an AVM??? My eyes were revitted to the "toy"..

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 09 Oct 2011 23:22

eklavya wrote: Nothing remotely rude in the Air Chief's statement.

Perhaps he is being factually correct, and maybe you would like him to be politically correct.

If you read the article it makes clear that from Dec 2012 all Stage III training will be on the Hawk AJT, which is an easier aircraft to handle for inexperienced pilots.

Not rude but tragic. He's responsible for the people under him. It's his job to make sure they're well trained. It's not something so disassociated from him that he can claim it's "unfortunate" and let pass. Is he then really saying he's allowing inadequately trained pilots up in the air?