Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Prasad]

Damage will occur irrespective of power on/off state. But I suppose weapons will have some sort of shielding to prevent the enemy from frying the electronics which trigger the bum.

[vasu_ray]

Storm Shadow uses, TERPROM + GPS + INS. While TERCOM uses Radar altimeter, TERPROM is a highly adaptive system employing every seeker available like mmW, IIR as well as radar altimeter in sensor fuzed fashion to provide GPS independent Navigation.

In the case of Taurus, "Fusion of sensor data from three sensors provides reliable autonomous navigation. The sensors package include IBN (Image Based Navigation), TRN (Terrain Reference Navigation) and MIL-GPS (Global Positioning System) subsystems. The use of such fusion enables the Taurus KEPD 350 to navigate over long distances without GPS support." This IBN is based on IIR seeker.

ok, the message is INS measurements can be supplemented by a number of tech as an alternative to GPS, so removing it as a given,

Storm shadow uses TERPROM that has (DEMs) Digital Elevation Maps and IIR (passive), mmW and radar altimeter sensors (active) aiding INS,

Taurus uses Infrared image based navigation (passive) and TRN (active)

Being subsonic they are geared towards terrain flight with sensor fusion enabling both passive and active systems as needed

DEMs give a 'whats coming ahead' coarse view, image based nav is said to be precise with radar serving as altimeter, however bad weather or changing terrain such as desert sand or snow filled mountains mean using TRN, mmW seeker is good for precision ranging as well?

going back to the conduit analogy, with such sensor fusion how accurate are they in mid course?

Also, TERPROM aids in safe low level flying and is used in aircraft, however in a missile like Storm Shadow, its input is directly fed into the FCS, why isn't the same possible with aircraft with no human in the loop? navigation is still pilot's responsibility

[Singha]

DEM is what our cartosats are for. there was even a film floating around of an area of gujarat in a 3d flythrough as generated from cartosat, probably by ISRO ahmedabad.

It was said this is also a essential input to AWACS though not sure why.

[pkudva]

A planned test of Agni-2 prime was planned today....isnt it???

No News till now....

Cheers!!!

[Kanson]

DEMs give a 'whats coming ahead' coarse view, image based nav is said to be precise with radar serving as altimeter, however bad weather or changing terrain such as desert sand or snow filled mountains mean using TRN, mmW seeker is good for precision ranging as well?

A really robust guidance system should take care of such anomalies. TERPROM is reported to take care of such errors. Usually you have INS + GPS, that can compensate for the errors otherwise. Yes, mmW seekers are good.

going back to the conduit analogy, with such sensor fusion how accurate are they in mid course?

Really good.

Also, TERPROM aids in safe low level flying and is used in aircraft, however in a missile like Storm Shadow, its input is directly fed into the FCS, why isn't the same possible with aircraft with no human in the loop? navigation is still pilot's responsibility

For what purpose/objective? If you term TFR(Terrain Following Radar) as single dimensional, TERPROM is multi dimensional, giving pilots more degree of freedom to operate. Pilot can do terrain masking just like flying a normal flight using Terprom. Why would you like to replace human in the loop. But theoretically it is possible as you wish. TERPROM can also be used in UAVs.

[Kanson]

DEM is what our cartosats are for. there was even a film floating around of an area of gujarat in a 3d flythrough as generated from cartosat, probably by ISRO ahmedabad.

It was said this is also a essential input to AWACS though not sure why.

One of the task of AWACS is to watch low level intrusions. In probing such having terrain data comes handy.

[Cybaru]

does EMP work even if the targets electrical system is in powered off state ? (as that noko weapon was likely to be during transport).

Wouldn't cellphones and all electronic equipment like video cameras etc be toast. Wouldn't people be talking about how everyones cellphone and all died etc..

[rajanb]

does EMP work even if the targets electrical system is in powered off state ? (as that noko weapon was likely to be during transport).

Wouldn't cellphones and all electronic equipment like video cameras etc be toast. Wouldn't people be talking about how everyones cellphone and all died etc..

Including pacemakers my friend and hospital equipment!

[Leo.Davidson]

Nice to know that DRDO is finally getting to EMP. The next question, is how much of our military equipment is EMP resistant. My guess, is little if not none. Do we even have testing facilities for this kind of stuff?

[jai]

Isn't it premature for DRDO to start putting news reports on sensitive technologies like this one before they are ready with it ? One would imagine it would stay off public know even
after induction, what gives ?

[ramana]

There must be reason to release the info.

[Leo.Davidson]

Bragging about something you have is one thing. Doing the same over something in thin air is sheer stupidity. The hindi term is 'a bhail muje maar'.

[vasu_ray]

Quote:
Also, TERPROM aids in safe low level flying and is used in aircraft, however in a missile like Storm Shadow, its input is directly fed into the FCS, why isn't the same possible with aircraft with no human in the loop? navigation is still pilot's responsibility
For what purpose/objective? If you term TFR(Terrain Following Radar) as single dimensional, TERPROM is multi dimensional, giving pilots more degree of freedom to operate. Pilot can do terrain masking just like flying a normal flight using Terprom. Why would you like to replace human in the loop. But theoretically it is possible as you wish. TERPROM can also be used in UAVs.

if we start with Brahmos which is a precision missile both in mid-course and terminal stages, it differs from Storm Shadow or Taurus in that the latter are subsonic and sensor fusion includes terrain masking as well

Our own subsonic vehicle program is under wraps at the moment we don't know what navigation system or the sensor fusion it employs, however it will have to account for prolonged low level flying

so, focusing on TERPROM, from your narrative, it can be interpreted as executing two roles, one is navigation and another is terrain masking, with Storm shadow it serves both roles, in aircraft one would assume, navigation is deferred to the pilot while the terrain masking role can be integrated into the FCS helping in shortening the flight reaction time to terrain obstacles

Elaborating further, aircraft's degrees of freedom is desired when it is flying high but the same cannot be said when the aircraft is flying close to the ground like in terrain masking, since any false move or delayed reaction runs the risk of flight into terrain, at this point binding the TERPROM into the FCS to adaptively limit the degrees of freedom of the flight whenever it is on a collision course with terrain is being asked to serve as a safety net to the pilot

Can the sensor fusion (TERPROM) be added to older aircraft if it can be used in UAVs? any aircraft that sports a intervening control to the FCS other than the pilot such as the auto pilot? its given that the curving of the conduit will be dependent on the flight maneuvering limitations

Current opinion is that the accuracy of sensors (sensor fusion?) is not good enough that machine assisted flying in mountainous terrain is not feasible, where the terrain varies rapidly, for example, the conduit is not well defined to fit into narrow winding gorges typical of mountainous terrain, relatively flat terrain is OK since at 30m altitude the conduit is well above the ground and nothing close by in the horizontal plane

[shiv]

Bragging about something you have is one thing. Doing the same over something in thin air is sheer stupidity. The hindi term is 'a bhail muje maar'.

When the Chinese do it we need to shit in our pants. When Indians do it we need to do what you have done - be scathing and condemn it. Know any Hindi terms for that?

[sum]

Army gets 2nd regiment of Brahmos missiles

The Indian Army on Wednesday received its second regiment of Brahmos cruise missile, which is likely to be deployed along the China border.

The regiment includes four-to six road-mobile missile launchers, each carrying a battery of four cruise missiles. The missile, which travels at a supersonic speed of 2.8 Mach, packs enough punch to destroy an enemy target 290 km away.

The second regiment was handed over to the Army by Union Minister of State for Defence M Pallam Raju at a function here in the presence of Brahmos chief A Shivthanu Pillai. Army received its first Brahmos regiment way back in 2007 when Gen J J Singh was Army chief. It led to the formation of N816 missile regiment.{ N816?}

“Due to its versatility and user friendly operation, Brahmos emerged as the most reliable system for the Indian Armed Forces. We have guns for near range and Smerch Rockets for range of 75 km. But beyond 75 km range, Brahmos is the only system which has added tremendous fire power capability to Indian Armed Forces for targets as deep as 300 km,” said Lt Gen Vinod Nayanar, Director General in charge of artillery in the Army.

Pillai claimed Brahmos could hit targets with great precision and has devastating power because it carries nine times more kinetic energy than sub-sonic cruise missiles.

The Navy received the first version of Brahmos cruise missile in 2005, after which the Army got its version.

An Indian Air Force version of the cruise missile, which would be fitted to Su-30 MKI is in the works.

[Kanson]

if we start with Brahmos which is a precision missile both in mid-course and terminal stages, it differs from Storm Shadow or Taurus in that the latter are subsonic and sensor fusion includes terrain masking as well

Our own subsonic vehicle program is under wraps at the moment we don't know what navigation system or the sensor fusion it employs, however it will have to account for prolonged low level flying

Easy to guess isn't it? It will have standard INS+GPS+Glonass. If it is terrain hugging, then TRN (Terrain Reference Navigation) added to the mix. Plus few more.

so, focusing on TERPROM, from your narrative, it can be interpreted as executing two roles, one is navigation and another is terrain masking, with Storm shadow it serves both roles, in aircraft one would assume, navigation is deferred to the pilot while the terrain masking role can be integrated into the FCS helping in shortening the flight reaction time to terrain obstacles

You have to check with their website which lists all the roles that TERPROM can do.

Elaborating further, aircraft's degrees of freedom is desired when it is flying high but the same cannot be said when the aircraft is flying close to the ground like in terrain masking, since any false move or delayed reaction runs the risk of flight into terrain, at this point binding the TERPROM into the FCS to adaptively limit the degrees of freedom of the flight whenever it is on a collision course with terrain is being asked to serve as a safety net to the pilot

You have to talk to the pilots to really feel how easy it is to fly with TERPROM. TERPROM takes aircraft info, pilot response time along with terrain info into account to help navigate the terrain. Combined with modern FCS with offers 'Care free handling' it is more like playing video games or using stimulator.

Can the sensor fusion (TERPROM) be added to older aircraft if it can be used in UAVs? any aircraft that sports a intervening control to the FCS other than the pilot such as the auto pilot? its given that the curving of the conduit will be dependent on the flight maneuvering limitations

You can get that in LRU which can be fitted in any aircraft. Issue could be it must 'talk' to any legacy systems in old aircraft. You have to check with the manufacturer.

Current opinion is that the accuracy of sensors (sensor fusion?) is not good enough that machine assisted flying in mountainous terrain is not feasible, where the terrain varies rapidly, for example, the conduit is not well defined to fit into narrow winding gorges typical of mountainous terrain, relatively flat terrain is OK since at 30m altitude the conduit is well above the ground and nothing close by in the horizontal plane

As per the manufacturer, accuracy is as good as GPS. TERCOM works more accurately in rugged terrain than in plain bald terrain. I think you can understand that. TERPROM is an evolution of TERCOM. Mountain terrain with prominent features actually increases accuracy of TRN. Highlight is you may not get proper GPS signal in such terrain becoz of narrow valley etc, but it is here that TRN like TERPROM excels. But you need good terrain database.

Issue in navigating such narrow winding terrain is, all aircraft can't negotiate all narrow terrain. Let us take C-17 (which do have TERPROM), and assume that C-17 can fit in such narrow terrain. G limit of C-17 is less than 3g. If suppose to move in such narrow winding terrain to negotiate all the twists and turns, it has to pull more than 3g, TERPROM, which takes all necessary aircraft info, won't allow/recommend to take that path. Here the issue is with aircraft which can't negotiate that terrain.

Another issue particularly in mountain terrain is wind. While moving over bridges passing between valleys you get such warning. If terrain is known for such unpredictable gushing winds and your aircraft can't handle that in such narrow space, then you can't take that path, with TERPROM or without TERPROM. Becoz of Human factor, safety margin will be much higher. I may put a Cruise missile in that path but not a manned aircraft. After all such missile costs between half a million to a million USD.

[rajanb]

Thanks Kanson. Very informative.

[vasu_ray]

You have to talk to the pilots to really feel how easy it is to fly with TERPROM. TERPROM takes aircraft info, pilot response time along with terrain info into account to help navigate the terrain. Combined with modern FCS with offers 'Care free handling' it is more like playing video games or using stimulator.

It would be good to know how that was in mountain ranges at the extreme end of difficulty of which are Himalayas

As per the manufacturer, accuracy is as good as GPS. TERCOM works more accurately in rugged terrain than in plain bald terrain. I think you can understand that. TERPROM is an evolution of TERCOM. Mountain terrain with prominent features actually increases accuracy of TRN. Highlight is you may not get proper GPS signal in such terrain becoz of narrow valley etc, but it is here that TRN like TERPROM excels. But you need good terrain database.

great point indeed, articulated terrain is more suited for accurate navigation due to the many fixes it provides even though it seems counter intuitive at first glance, from occasional news, the current series of Cartosats are already on the job of mapping the borders and beyond for DEMs

Issue in navigating such narrow winding terrain is, all aircraft can't negotiate all narrow terrain. Let us take C-17 (which do have TERPROM), and assume that C-17 can fit in such narrow terrain. G limit of C-17 is less than 3g. If suppose to move in such narrow winding terrain to negotiate all the twists and turns, it has to pull more than 3g, TERPROM, which takes all necessary aircraft info, won't allow/recommend to take that path. Here the issue is with aircraft which can't negotiate that terrain.

Another issue particularly in mountain terrain is wind. While moving over bridges passing between valleys you get such warning. If terrain is known for such unpredictable gushing winds and your aircraft can't handle that in such narrow space, then you can't take that path, with TERPROM or without TERPROM. Becoz of Human factor, safety margin will be much higher. I may put a Cruise missile in that path but not a manned aircraft. After all such missile costs between half a million to a million USD.

the bit about flying in mountaineous terrain was exaggerated, a more realisitc case is considering the terrain wherever pilots currently fly, so manned vs unmanned should not be an issue as even without TERPROM pilots fly such terrain (even if hazardous), since the ask is not about squeezing a fighter aircraft into places where a cruise missile can, but to make current flying safer, such sensor fusion that helps cruise missiles navigate accurately can help aircraft as well especially in the terrain masking role when TERPROM by directly integrating into the aircraft's FCS hopefully provides for faster reaction

Thanks Kanson, you have been patient in asnwering and hopefully we will see TERPROM or like system in our air force

[sum]

Agni II Prime to be tested again

Missile technologists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) are reaching Wheeler Island off the coast of Orissa for the launch of India's Agni II Prime missile on November 15. The missile will take off from a specially designed truck and, if the flight is successful, it will target an area 3,000 km away in the Bay of Bengal.

The missile engineers are looking forward to the Agni II Prime launch after the successful flights of Shourya, Prithivi-II and Agni-II missiles in the last week of September this year.

However, they are keeping their fingers crossed because the maiden flight of Agni-II Prime in December 2010 had failed. The flight ended abruptly after a problem in the control system of the first stage of the missile, which occurred during the lift-off.

Only one test flight so far of A-II+

The missile engineers said: “We had a problem last time. We have identified the problem and taken precautions to stabilise the whole system. We have introduced a lot of redundancies to take care of the anomalies that may occur during the flight,” they added.

Agni-II Prime is a two-stage surface-to-surface missile that aims at filling the gap in the ranges between Agni-II and Agni-III. While Agni-II can take out targets 2,000 km away, Agni-III can travel a distance of 3,000 km to 3,500 km.

All the three are strategic missiles that can carry nuclear warheads. But test flights like these carry conventional explosives. Agni-II Prime is 20 metres long and weighs 17 tonnes. This time it will carry a warhead weighing 800 kg instead of the normal 1,000 kg. “We are aiming to go for range of 3,000 km this time,” a DRDO official said. The Advanced Missile Laboratory, Hyderabad, has designed and developed the missile.

The DRDO has also developed the Agni-V, the most powerful missile in India's arsenal. Agni-V, which will carry a nuclear warhead, can aim at places 5,000 km away. The motors of its three stages have undergone successful tests at a facility at Jagdalpur in Chhattisgarh. Its maiden flight may take place in December 2011 or January/February 2012.

So the A-V is already ready as per TSS.

Also, A-II+ seems to be getting tested for its full range of 3000 K.M meaning that the DRDO given figure for A-III as 3000 k.m is obviously understating its range...

[ramana]

So looks like some weight reduction(~200kg) in the payload is also being tested. And this gives more range.

And the remarks about introduced redundancies means the original design has been augmented. Didnt the Dec 2010 flight have separation problem?

[Venkarl]

Bragging about something you have is one thing. Doing the same over something in thin air is sheer stupidity. The hindi term is 'a bhail muje maar'.

When the Chinese do it we need to shit in our pants. When Indians do it we need to do what you have done - be scathing and condemn it. Know any Hindi terms for that?

Cheeni bhail mujhe maare, Indian bhail bhi mujhe maare

[Kanson]

Thanks Kanson. Very informative.

Thank You Rajanb.

It would be good to know how that was in mountain ranges at the extreme end of difficulty of which are Himalayas

May be you have to wait till we buy one of the MRCA contenders.

Thanks Kanson, you have been patient in asnwering and hopefully we will see TERPROM or like system in our air force

You are welcome.

[Kanson]

Agni II Prime to be tested again

The missile will take off from a specially designed truck

Last year, the test was conducted from rail carriage. So this one will be road mobile.

The missile engineers said: “We had a problem last time. We have identified the problem and taken precautions to stabilise the whole system. We have introduced a lot of redundancies to take care of the anomalies that may occur during the flight,” they added.

[Singha]

>>This time it will carry a warhead weighing 800 kg instead of the normal 1,000 kg. “We are aiming to go for range of 3,000 km this time,

thats a solid data point people can use to x-check against the predicted ranges from rocket simulator.

[ramana]

GD, Most Agni flights are agonizing( ) for they don't follow a ballistic trajectory. The more important markers are range, apogee and time of flight. The time of flight and range give you an idea of whats going on. The apogee tells you another aspect of whats going on.

[SaiK]

Wouldn't reaching a perigee [close enough but has very low earth pull] distance to maintain a mid-course journey enlarges the envelope to anyplace on the planet as target?

[vic]

^^^The answer can also be that the cost of aircraft, training, maintenance, weapons, success rate of delivery, systems that must coordinate a strike using aircraft like air cover, the time taken to implement that strike, the planning to execution stage etc all need to be considered and may not be as cheap as viewed from mere cost analysis of Brahmos cost Vs Bomb cost.
Second Nag got an indigenous seeker. (Latest development)
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/bdl-makes-co ... 0-121.html

HYDERABAD: The city-based Bharat Dynamics Ltd has productionised Imaging Infra Red Seekers (IIRS) for Nag, the third-generation anti-tank guided missile. The technology for IIRS was developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation. IIRS is a very sophisticated system used for missile guidance. The first batch of IIRSs was handed over to P Venugopalan, director of DRDL, by BDL's CMD Maj Gen Ravi Khetarpal VSM (Retd), on Tuesday. These Seekers will be used for the forthcoming developmental trials of helicopter-launched Nag (Helina), another variant of the missile being developed by the DRDO.

Hope this will also bring down the cost of Nag and Helina missiles which can also be mass produced now.

This is a very major achievement by India. IIR seekers are used in huge number of things like ATGMs, AAMs, PGMs, Night Sights, AshM, SAMs, etc. I think this achievement is as big as launching Arihant or Agni-5

[Prabu]

^^^

Hope this will also bring down the cost of Nag and Helina missiles which can also be mass produced now.

This is a very major achievement by India. IIR seekers are used in huge number of things like ATGMs, AAMs, PGMs, Night Sights, AshM, SAMs, etc. I think this achievement is as big as launching Arihant or Agni-5

Nice to know these developments. Thanks Uddu garu.

[vic]

Estimated use of IIR seeker technology base in next 10 years like :-

Helina – 5,000
Nag-5,000
Manportable Nag-10,000
WVR AAM – 5,000
BVR IIR AAM-2500
Night Vision (cooled and uncooled) devices 10,000 to 20,000
Manportable SAM -5,000
VSHORAD SAM & VWVR - AAM – 5,000
SHORAD SAM 5,000
LR SAMs 5,000
PGMs, Cruise Missles, AShMs 10,000

Value of seekers would be approx Rs 10,000 crore and the missiles/devices in which they would be used will be around Rs 100,000 crore that is import substitution of around US$ 20 Billion.

[PratikDas]

Big news on the BR home page:
DNA: India to test fire sub-sonic cruise missile Nirbhay next year

Looking to add more lethal firepower to its arsenal, India is planning to test fire its latest 1000-km range sub-sonic land attack cruise missile ‘Nirbhay’ early next year.

Nirbhay will be a terrain hugging, stealthy missile capable of delivering multiple warheads as per mission requirements.

"We are looking to test-fire the new sub-sonic cruise missile in the first quarter of 2012. The Nirbhay will be a new state-of-the-art missile," DRDO officials told PTI here.

With its range of 1,000 Km, the missile has longer reach than Pakistan's Hatf-7 Babur missile, which claims to have a range of 700 km.

The missile is being developed by the Advanced Systems Laboratory under the DRDO.

Sources said the missile will be sleeker than other similar weapon systems that are operational with different countries.

The Nirbhay will be India's second cruise missile after the 300 km range BrahMos, which is a supersonic system. The missile can be launched from multiple launchers and will be inducted into all the three services.

[Karan M]

Good news.

Now, some updates on LRSAM, SRSAM, Akash Mk2 etc would be great.

[suryag]

There is so much to report on indian defence programs. I guess some journalists can take this up as a full time. They can have a story out every 2-3 days given the amount of work happening in the indian defence front may it be r&d, deployment, issues or general shortfalls

[Nihat]

Brilliant news about Nirbhay . it'll fill a huge operational requirement of the armed forces if inducted in big numbers.

[Shrinivasan]

Brilliant news about Nirbhay . it'll fill a huge operational requirement of the armed forces if inducted in big numbers.

Nirbhay test is long overdue, induction of a regiment of Nirbhay would indeed be a LUNGI DANCE moment.

[Singha]

is ASL the same secretive outfit who are doing the ABM PAD/AAD work?

[ramana]

Its not secretive. Its work is very much in open. And yes same outfit.

[Kanson]

Nirbhay test is long overdue, induction of a regiment of Nirbhay would indeed be a LUNGI DANCE moment.

It is well published that Nirbhay test will happen in 2012. There is no postponements. Missile development cycle time is 5 yrs for any missile unless clarified. Officially announced during 2007, the program is expected to complete its development by 2012.

[Shrinivasan]

Nirbhay test is long overdue, induction of a regiment of Nirbhay would indeed be a LUNGI DANCE moment.

It is well published that Nirbhay test will happen in 2012. There is no postponements. Missile development cycle time is 5 yrs for any missile unless clarified. Officially announced during 2007, the program is expected to complete its development by 2012.

I understand the dev cycle Kansonji, I didn't say delayed, only long overdue from an expectation POV. The 1000 km range would increase our deploymnet options by many fold against the pigs. Even against the lizard, it gives us mAny more options than Brahmos which with its 300km range limits us.

1000km Nirbhay will have more potent spinoffs IMHO.

[Shrinivasan]

Good news.

Now, some updates on LRSAM, SRSAM, Akash Mk2 etc would be great.

Karan, we need to induct Akash MK1 first.

[Singha]

it seems to take BDL and BEL around 1.5-2.5 yrs from getting a confirmed order to setup the production line and start delivering the product. is this the norm worldwide in shifting from final prototype stage to mass production or we take longer?

I recall around nov 2010, the second akash order was confirmed. the first was probably in late 2009.

no word on how many have been delivered yet?