Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

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Sushupti
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sushupti »

Bhagavad Gita In chapter 10 Verse 5 Lord Krishna speaks about Ahimsa


अहिंसा समता तुष्टि
तपो दानं यशो अयश:
भवन्ति भाव भूतानाम
मत्त एव पृथग - विधः
And 17th sloka of the 18th chapter defines what Krishna meant by Ahimsa:

yasya nahankrto bhavo
buddhir yasya na lipyate
hatvapi sa imal lokan
na hanti na nibadhyate


He who is free from the notion 'I am the doer,' and whose understanding is not tainted --- slays not, though he slays all these men, nor is he bound.


And, in words of the Bhagwan Sri Ramana Maharshi, being in this ego less state is the parama Dharm and True Ahimsa. That is why Sri Rama amd Sri Kirshna, although slaying the demons but never considered as "Himsaks". Not to mention that absolute one sided "Ahimsa" is idiocy even at individual level. What to say when it becomes the Dharma of the state?.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Pratyush »

Hoping that this post will not be OT to this thread. Am linking the link to the controversial, "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation’" by A.K. Ramanujan

Link

and the write up in the First post which prompted me to search the link in the first place Who’s afraid of rightwing bullies? Far too many liberals

It is for the members to decide if the Essay deserved to be removed from the curricula
Aditya_V
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Aditya_V »

Pratyush wrote:Hoping that this post will not be OT to this thread. Am linking the link to the controversial, "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation’" by A.K. Ramanujan

Link

and the write up in the First post which prompted me to search the link in the first place Who’s afraid of rightwing bullies? Far too many liberals

It is for the members to decide if the Essay deserved to be removed from the curricula
The same Liberal's will never cry against a Facebook user for creating a profile on Rahul Baba. Anyone protestign against them is called an illetrate mob, while the same time they project all 'RIGHT WINGERS' as rich educated people while the poor are all leftists- HYPOCRITS.

Freedom is only for bashing Hinduism, Indian Army, Indian Companies etc...
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Keshav »

Pratyush wrote:and the write up in the First post which prompted me to search the link in the first place Who’s afraid of rightwing bullies? Far too many liberals
If the author had turned this in as an essay for school, he/she would have failed outright. It has no thesis, no supporting statements... its just rambling groups of letters that happen to be about a certain subject. Utter garbage.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Pratyush »

Guys, my post is about the AK Ramanujum essay. I am requesting all to read the Essay and decide if it needed to be banned. Not pay attention the article of the DDM author. That is mearly the medium which caused me to search for the essay.

Nothing more.

Who is the enemy here?

The author of the original essay, or the people who demanded that it be banned. Having read the essay, it is difficult for me to agree with the decision that it had to be Dropped. I am asking you to read it, and decide if it deserved to be dropped.

Ramayan, is a part of Indian tradition, different ethnic and linguistic groups of India have an equal right to it and the way it is presented to the next generation. You are not going to be able to change that. The essay is merely an acknowledgement of it.

He says much more then that in the Last one page of the essay. When he tells the tail of the Village dolt.
Aditya_V
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Aditya_V »

Pratyush wrote:Guys, my post is about the AK Ramanujum essay. I am requesting all to read the Essay and decide if it needed to be banned. Not pay attention the article of the DDM author. That is mearly the medium which caused me to search for the essay.

Nothing more.

Who is the enemy here?

The author of the original essay, or the people who demanded that it be banned. Having read the essay, it is difficult for me to agree with the decision that it had to be Dropped. I am asking you to read it, and decide if it deserved to be dropped.

Ramayan, is a part of Indian tradition, different ethnic and linguistic groups of India have an equal right to it and the way it is presented to the next generation. You are not going to be able to change that. The essay is merely an acknowledgement of it.

He says much more then that in the Last one page of the essay. When he tells the tail of the Village dolt.
Boss nobody is stopping Villagers from teaching whatever he tells his kids.

I cannot say much of other parts of the essay but reading the parts related to Srivaishnavism and being from the same community as AK Ramanujan supposedly comes from his thesis essay points on Kamba Ramayanan, 'Thenkalai' and 'Vadgalai' beliefs is utter rubbish. The essay is about defaming a religion.

For example, even the Kamba Ramayanam which Translates Ramayanam in Tamil says the original Ramayanam is Valimiki Ramayanam.

Kamba Ramayanam is in line with Valmiki Ramayanam and few more incidents narrated by 12 Alwars are included, but these are no way connected to P-sec rubbish which apparently traces itself to the Kamba Ramayanam.

Besides if the P-Sec crowd consider Rama a myth why do they say it is History. These guys wanted to piss on Hindus
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by niran »

Pratyush wrote:Guys, my post is about the AK Ramanujum essay. I am requesting all to read the Essay and decide if it needed to be banned. Not pay attention the article of the DDM author. That is mearly the medium which caused me to search for the essay.

Nothing more.

Who is the enemy here?

The author of the original essay, or the people who demanded that it be banned. Having read the essay, it is difficult for me to agree with the decision that it had to be Dropped. I am asking you to read it, and decide if it deserved to be dropped.

Ramayan, is a part of Indian tradition, different ethnic and linguistic groups of India have an equal right to it and the way it is presented to the next generation. You are not going to be able to change that. The essay is merely an acknowledgement of it.

He says much more then that in the Last one page of the essay. When he tells the tail of the Village dolt.
The essay have grave blunders, one is that it was Sage Kashyap who came to the door
the other is Lord Hanuman acted as the Prime minister of Sugriva till Sugriva Crowned Crown Prince Angad as the king, Lord though would visit Lord Shree Ram from time to time, but he never served Lord Shree Ram in any capacity save for the Ravan war and the battle to get back the Yagn Horse, so all in all the essay stands on blunders hence fit to banned.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sanku »

Aditya_V, you have not the read the essay it seems, read it. It is not a attack on Ramayana, however in "competent" hands it can be a attack.

The real culprits are the teachers of history at DU and not the essay. The issue was that they were not competent to teach the essay and less that the essay was bad.

That was the complaint. As far as essay is concerned, it is a scholarly piece outlining various versions of Ramayana -- and there are versions which will raise hackles of any one who reveres the original.

However that point is also made in the essay. -- Of politics of Ramayana, by the Jain and Buddhist versions.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Aditya_V »

Sanku wrote:Aditya_V, you have not the read the essay it seems, read it. It is not a attack on Ramayana, however in "competent" hands it can be a attack.

The real culprits are the teachers of history at DU and not the essay. The issue was that they were not competent to teach the essay and less that the essay was bad.

That was the complaint. As far as essay is concerned, it is a scholarly piece outlining various versions of Ramayana -- and there are versions which will raise hackles of any one who reveres the original.

However that point is also made in the essay. -- Of politics of Ramayana, by the Jain and Buddhist versions.
Sanku I read the parts of the essay relating to Srivaishnavism, secretarial beliefs. What was stated and general beliefs in what other Srivaishnava Acharyas believe are contradictory.

If AK Ramananjum, gets his community beliefs wrong, I doubt he can other community beliefs correctly.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sanku »

Aditya_V wrote: Sanku I read the parts of the essay relating to Srivaishnavism, secretarial beliefs. What was stated and general beliefs in what other Srivaishnava Acharyas believe are contradictory.

If AK Ramananjum, gets his community beliefs wrong, I doubt he can other community beliefs correctly.
Can you please explain in a few points what are the basic divergences (btw, just trying to understand this part, because I personally would not know the difference)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Aditya_V »

Will post the errors I noticed in the weekend.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Aditya_V »

Sushupti wrote:
"This is yet anther myth from Max Muller diligently followed by maculyties who don't understand Sanskrit, no Hindu Mutt says this."
Listen to explanation of "IndroMayabhi Pururup Iyate" Rigveda 6/47/18:

http://yourlisten.com/channel/content/1 ... %20Mayabhi

Spoken by Swami Akhandananda Sarswati Ji

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhandanand

I knew him personally as well. He never went to any Maculytie institution.
"when studying Hindu scriptures one must remember one does not become a Doctor by borrowing a couple of Medical books from a library and reading them in your house and in many cases a language the reader do not understand the language they are written in. You need guidance and Tutorship from a proper guru to study and understand thier meaning."

For example:- if you Vaishnavism and have a Vaishnava guru he will tell you that Indra is post and changes with every Manu and hence there will be 14 Indras in 1 Brahma's day, the present Indra is Purandhara and Bali in patala is slated to be next Indra as promised in Vamana Avatar.
Are you a HK(Hare Krishna)?.
Nope but follow Srivaishvavism which is similar in ideology.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by svenkat »

AK Ramanujans essay is brilliant from a scholarly viewpoint.If one is interested in Ramayana,one will enjoy it.I think it cannot be criticised as wrong if it is included in the History curriculum.Any one interested in Ramayanam as interpreted by different traditions will still enjoy for it is still a study of our culture and Srmad Ramayanam is an eye into our culture.

But there is a problem in including in History curriculum.Most people in todays scenario in our colleges studying/learning history are plain idiots who are not good at anything else(they are doing it not out of love but by default or they are extremely prejuced towards India because of western world view) and in such a mileu of teachers/learners,the whole spirit of the essay is distorted.And this is what the thugs in JNU want.

The essay writer comes from a milieu(Srivaishnaivism) which has profoundest respect for Srimad Ramayanam,for its aesthetic,ethical,dharmic and spiritual(saranagathi) aspects.Anyone who is born,bred and cultivated in that tradition has already a very high aesthetic sensibility and has internalised the spirit to a geat extent.His critical view,exposition is notmeant to be offensive but exploratory trying to see how different traditions have appreciated ramayanam and even its 'relevance' in contemporary settings.
The crooks who wanted to make it a controversy wanted to demean,diminish in derogotary tones given the important place of Sri Rama worship and the Ramayana of Tulsi Das has in the traditions of morality,ethics and communal living in North India and the immaturereader can be easily led the path of moral relativism and denigration of the core message of the Ramayana.
ramana
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

The JNU thugs want to reduce the impact of Tulsi Ramayana in North India for their own deracination project.

Hence they are using AKR's many Ramayanas as ammo..

IOW its not the content but the purpose of the move that is the crux of the problem.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

^ It is in similar lines like Not all Hindus are behind Anna; given that Bukhari and Church spoke against AH.

Expect to hear "Not all Hindus think RJB is in Ayodhya" in the upcoming RJB case at Supreme Court.

The opposition is itching for danda-neeti. They must be reciprocated.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Pioneer reports:

Cambridge to study Sanskrit texts



Cambridge to Study Sanskrit texts

A major exercise in 'linguistic archaeology' has set out to complete a comprehensive survey of Cambridge University South Asian manuscript collection, which includes the oldest dated and illustrated Sanskrit manuscript known worldwide.

Written on now-fragile birch bark, palm leaf and paper, the 2,000 manuscripts in the collection at the University Library express centuries-old South Asian thinking on religion, philosophy, astronomy, grammar, law and poetry.

The project, which is led by Sanskrit-specialists Dr Vincenzo Vergiani and Dr Eivind Kahrs, will study and catalogue each of the manuscripts, placing them in their broader historical context, a university release said.

Most of the holdings will also be digitised by the library and made available through the library's new online digital library ( http://cudl.Lib.Cam.ac.uk/ ) .

"In a world that seems increasingly small, every artefact documenting the history of ancient civilisations has become part of a global heritage to be carefully preserved and studied," explained Dr Vergiani, who is in the University's Faculty of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies.

"Among such artefacts, manuscripts occupy a distinctive place – they speak to us with the actual words of long-gone men and women, bringing their beliefs, ideas and sensibilities to life".

He added: "One reason this collection is so important is because of the age of many of the manuscripts.

"In the heat and humidity of India, materials deteriorate quickly and manuscripts needed to be copied again and again. As a result, many of the early Indian texts no longer exist". :(

Some of the oldest holdings of the Library's South Asian collection were discovered not in India but in Nepal, where the climate is more temperate.

In the 1870s, Dr Daniel Wright, surgeon of the British Residency in Kathmandu, rescued the now-priceless cultural and historical artefacts from a disused temple, where they had survived largely by chance.

An early catalogue of part of the collection in 1883 found among its treasures a 10th-century Buddhist Sanskrit manuscript from India – the oldest dated and illustrated Sanskrit manuscript known worldwide.

More than half of the collection is in Sanskrit, a language that has dominated the literary culture of pre-modern South Asia for almost three millennia.

A request for those who understand Sanskrit please download all the texts and we need to host them on our own servers. Then they canbe translated into other Indian languages.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ManishH »

Aditya_V wrote:
Sushupti wrote:
Listen to explanation of "IndroMayabhi Pururup Iyate" Rigveda 6/47/18:

http://yourlisten.com/channel/content/1 ... %20Mayabhi

Spoken by Swami Akhandananda Sarswati Ji

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhandanand

I knew him personally as well. He never went to any Maculytie institution.
Pace swamiji, It is all fine for him to have a noble interpretation of RV hymns based on later Vedanta/Upanishadic beliefs. But the original meaning of the text is just not philosophical. A few points about the discourse which is based on RV hymn ...

RV_06.047.18.1{33} rūpaṃ-rūpaṃ pratirūpo babhūva tadasya rūpaṃ praticakṣaṇāya
RV_06.047.18.2{33} indro māyābhiḥ pururūpa īyate yuktā hyasya harayaḥśatā daśa

1. Swamiji says indra is sandhi of idaṃ dṛṣṭa - (one who) sees (all) this. But this defies basic sanskrit sandhi rules idaṃ + dṛṣ dhaatu would be = idaṃdṛṣ. This is basically an artifical construct to fit Indra into an unrelated philosophical dictum.

2. Even casual reading of RV would show that vedic māyā is plain old magic. Not later vedanta/upanishadic philosophy which used the word for "worldly illusions", or kaama as Swamiji says. In RV, even vṛtra possesses māyā.

3. Swamiji says variously that the bolded part above means:
a) Indra (the God) is seen in different forms due to māyā (a worldly illusion).
b) Our senses (Indris) make us see the world in different forms due to māyā (a worldly illusion).

But the real plain meaning of the bolded part is - Indra via his magic, moves in mutliple forms. The verb īyate is associated with movement not visibility or appearance, clearly[1]

The whole concept of a multiform Indra is a precursor to puranic beliefs on Gods with avataras. More clarity if one reads the hymn in context of the sūkta, not later philosophy.

[1] see RV 1.48.5: padvadīyata ut pātayati pakṣiṇaḥ (moving all creatures with feet and flying those with feathers). Or RV 10.168.2: sarathaṃ deva īyate.

RamanaJi: many original texts are easily found on GRETIL or SARIT
Sanku
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sanku »

>> But the original meaning of the text is just not philosophical.

How do you know for sure? Why can the Vedic sukta's not indeed be written at multiple levels in one go? In fact this appears to be the most common consensus.

That the texts have three layers.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ManishH »

Sankuji: not ruling out philosophical content in rest of RV. Just this particular hymn is not philosophical. Why ?

In the above case, take any one philosophical meaning. It should satisfy the rule of consistency; at least within the same sūkta. If Indra is accepted as the adhyatmo-philosophical Indri's, or "senses" (per swamiji), it makes no sense in RV 6.47.4

RV_06.047.04.1{30} ayaṃ sa yo varimāṇaṃ pṛthivyā varṣmāṇaṃ divo akṛṇodayaṃ saḥ
RV_06.047.04.2{30} ayaṃ pīyūṣaṃ tisṛṣu pravatsu somo dādhārorvantarikṣam

Have the "senses" made the earth abounding in water, heaven abounding in rains, the piyusha of 3 rivers ? Or does the poet dedicate this praise (rk) to plain and simple God Indra.

Could 6.47.18 be a later (philosophical) addition ? I doubt it - all of 6.47 are in a single metre - a single theme. Swamiji's interpretation of RV māyā is similarily flawed as it won't meet the consistency criterion. Think about why RV māyā is always attached to Deva or Demons only. If it is a philosophical interpretation, why not ask the warrior or king or even a common man to be wary of or see beyond māyā, as later texts would.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sanku »

Thanks ManishH-ji; I guess I misunderstood what you were saying the first time around. My mistake.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

I have a few questions. Seeing the death and destruction at the end of the Mahabharata War which I think altered post-Vedic society,
- what actions could the Pandavas have taken to prevent the recalcitrance of the Kauravas?
- Also what were the soruces of strength for the Kauravas?
- How did the Pandavas not try to remove them to support their own position?

I think war was inevitable once Arjuna got the divya astras. The Kauravas had multiple sources for the divya astras: Bhisma, Drona, Kripacharaya, Karna and sundry guys.

Could Dharmaraja avoided the "fixed" dice game? Was he literally interpreting it as challenge of war and chosee it? Was it really according to Dharma? In other words had he been true to Dharma could he have seen it for what it was and refused? And in the game did he have the right to stake his brothers and his wife?
What dharma was he following a version current at that time or universal, invariant dharma?

He advises, nay commands Arjuna to seek the divya astras while in exile. What was he thinking about the usage of such weapons?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by devesh »

JMTP's,

Arjuna was the "wandering soul" among the Pandavas. Yudhishtira is seen to be hankering after Dharma and "holding back" the rest of the brothers. but in reality, once Yuddha was decided, the Dharmaraja didn't hesitate in executing the war with all means necessary. it was Arjuna who was constantly in doubts over this and that issue.

regardless of the politically correct interpretation, Krishna decided not to make Arjuna the "supreme commander" of their armies b/c he detected long ago the "wandering" mentality of Arjuna and knew that in the middle of war if Arjuna was having one of his "episodes", it would be disastrous for their side as a whole.

so instead, Drishtadyumna was made the Pradhaana Senapati. he didn't have any of the "distinguished" titles of Arjuna, but Krishna rightly recognized that Drishtadyumna had the vengeful ruthlessness to win the war at any cost necessary. Krishna's decision to pick Drishtadyumna and not Arjuna is an important lesson for modern India.

in matters that pose an existential threat to the nation, the men/women who should be leading the charge have to have the qualification that Dhrishtadyumna had (the whole story of "born to avenge Drona's insult" is a cover for basically a ruthless intent to destroy the Kaurava side and Drona, for the "insult" and whatever other reasons there were). the "titles" and all the distinguishing individual achievements are useless if the single-minded will against the enemy is absent....
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Klaus »

^^^ Good points. Also Dhristadyumna was not an obvious target of any single maharathi in the Kaurava army.

Yes, Krishna's astute decision has great lessons, especially when there were warriors such as Satyaki or Bhima who could have donned the Senapati mantle.

One moral could be that if there is no contest to determine the leader or commander with just 1 obvious candidate, it results in long-term complacency and decay.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by devesh »

Klaus,
please do expand on the last line. you mean, there should have been "competition" for the post in between the "top guns"?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Klaus »

Krishna's decision was also based on his knowledge of future events, he did not wish to have the Pandava army in full strength at the end of the war. The end goal was the rebuilding of society, the leadership decision also seems to have come from a realisation that he (Krishna) might have altered the strategic balance of Bharata by weakening strong east-west Magadha-Kuru-Gandhaara links. At the same time, Dhristadyumna was not an obvious leadership candidate.

But the lesson for modern India could lie in the fact that a pool of able leaders needs to be created by organisations. The org could have some serious faults if it is able to project only one face consistently.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by member_20317 »

ManishH wrote:Sankuji: not ruling out philosophical content in rest of RV. Just this particular hymn is not philosophical. Why ?

Sometime back someone wrote this:

http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2007/ ... roto_siva/

i hope it helps.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Atri »

Klaus wrote:Krishna's decision was also based on his knowledge of future events, he did not wish to have the Pandava army in full strength at the end of the war. The end goal was the rebuilding of society, the leadership decision also seems to have come from a realisation that he (Krishna) might have altered the strategic balance of Bharata by weakening strong east-west Magadha-Kuru-Gandhaara links. At the same time, Dhristadyumna was not an obvious leadership candidate.

But the lesson for modern India could lie in the fact that a pool of able leaders needs to be created by organisations. The org could have some serious faults if it is able to project only one face consistently.
We are attributing too much power to character of Krishna here, IMO (if we set aside his Vishnu avatara role and think of him as "baap of Chanakya" but human nonetheless).

The game changer was usage of brahmastra by Ashwatthama. Nobody had predicted such drastic step by Ashwatthama. It was this launch (along with Arjuna's brahmastra in response) which decimated remaining Pandava-Kaurava army and foetal Parikshita in womb of Uttaraa (whom Krishna later saved).

After killing sons of Pandavas in sleep, Ashwatthama had signed his own death-warrant any ways (again keeping aside the Chiranjeevi legend). When Bhima followed by other Pandavas approach the hiding Ashwatthama, he panics and launches Brahmastra. While Arjuna is forced by Dvaipayana-Krishna (Ved Vyaas) and Naarada to abort the launch (he has technology to stop the explosive reaction mid-way), the weapon of Ashwatthama has no such feature as "abort" and astra explodes..

It is after this event that only 8 Maharathi live. Rest everybody (18 Akshauhini elite Kshatriya army which is roughly equal to 40 lakhs) on both sides is decimated.

I do not think it was in Krishna's game plan to have weakened Pandavas in post-war scenario. After death of Karna, Yudhishthira and Krishna emphasize on one-to-one battle combats to save the unnecessary deaths of elite Kshatriyas. The deployment of huge Akshauhini level army manoeuvres (Vyuha-Rachana) is stopped immediately by Pandavas. They go on to kill remaining kauravas, Shalya in small skirmishes and challenge Duryodhana et al for personal combat. This again shows Pandava strategy to save lives. Krishna endorses (or perhaps comes up with) this strategy.

The society completely collapses in matter of 40 years after this event. The wives of Krishna are abducted by waves of invading tribals pouring in India from west and Arjuna can do zilch to stop it. There are many things which do not fit in Krishna's vision, but they happened nonetheless. That is because he did not have absolute control, partially due to the fact that he chose to act through proxy forces and refused to take on the mantle himself, unlike Bhaargava Raama and Daasharathi Raama.

The Mahabharat is both greatest success and greatest failure of Krishna. I rate Sri Raama as far better politician, diplomat and visionary than Sri Krishna. The calibre of Sri Raama is very very high. While Sri Rama leaves behind a consolidated India with huge and common market extending from gaandhara to Lanka and Sindh to Vanga, Krishna leaves behind a phucked-up India with entire defensive social structure collapsed. My views are further elaborated on this link.

The politics and symbolism of Bhaargava-Raama, Daasharathi-Raama and Vaasudeva-Krishna is a classic sinosoidal wave function. Bhaargava-Raama is beginning of Rise, Daasharathi-Raama is the zenith and Vaasudeva-Krishna is beginning of falling in abyss.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

Rama left out "peripheral" kingdoms intact - placing or helping to the succession disgruntled members of the erstwhile ruling group. This would develop personal ties and dependence which is not necessarily consolidated on a cultural and societal integration framework. If it did form a unified political structure - it would not have landed up into the scenario before MB war - with Yadavas and their frienemies all split, fractured and competing for independence.

Krishna the man - was a politician who saw the need to coopt fresh blood to clean up his own faction ridden and corrupted society. He merely used the slightly dubious status of the pandavas as facilitating greater manipulation by him and the subsequent use of the "younger" Kuru blood to get rid of factors in his own older and more widespread Yadava networks - that he felt were against ideological principles that must underlie [in his vision] the foundations of rashtra.

The man's abilities and achievements in his own time - became an iconic model for later generations to raise him to avataara status.

But the fundamental contribution of Krishna different from Rama - is that he makes the rashtra dependent on certain principles irrespective of dynasty and the persona of the autocrat. In Rama-rajya - it is the principles of the autocrat that determines the character of the rashtra. It is "good" beacuse "he" happens to implement "good things". The good things are sourced from teh autocrats imagination or principles.

In Krishna's concept of the state, principles of rashtra exist independent of the autocrat. The task of an aspiring ruler or politician is to implement those principles, or remove from authority a ruler who fails to uphold those principles.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Excellent perspective Bj.

Probably that is why we hear the characterization of Rama as the perfect human being (16 kalas/characteristics of Purusha), and Krishna as Jagadguru.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Atri »

brihaspati wrote:But the fundamental contribution of Krishna different from Rama - is that he makes the rashtra dependent on certain principles irrespective of dynasty and the persona of the autocrat. The task of an aspiring ruler or politician is to implement those principles, or remove from authority a ruler who fails to uphold those principles.
excellent insight, dada.. however to implement the principle based system requires a healthy society with certain degree of prosperity and operational readiness of Brahmana-Kshatriya-Vaishya-Shudra aspects of Samaaj-Purusha. These four forces have to be in peculiar ratio, particular mind-set and a nuanced and determined operational readiness to execute their duties which are required to maintain the Dharma.

This ratio, the mindset and readiness all three were drastically hampered post MBH war. decimation of 40 lakh kshatriyas, loss of Kshaatra-Vritti among those left alive and loss of Astra-vidya due to overwhelming sense of human-loss all three are detrimental towards what Krishna aimed to achieve. On smaller scale, this is exactly what Ashoka did centuries later.

Did Rashtra really become independent of personality and dependent on certain values or principles after great war?
The changes that Sri Krishna intended to bring in, did they materialize?

Sri Rama gave Gandhara and Kekay to Bharat and his sons, thereby consolidating NWFP. He created a stable federal structure of governance in Bhaarata. The structure which Sri Rama created lasted for a long time throughout India very efficiently (about 108 generations from Sri Rama to Shantanu according to genealogical sources and about 1500 years according to archaeo-astronomical sources). Of course it required purifying actions and course corrections over the period of time. Timely corrective decisions and actions by prince Devavrata Bheeshma would have made necessity of Krishna-Avataara null and void. The fact that people who should have followed Dharma did not do so, created the circumstances which gave rise to a Poorna-Avataara. Did any such institution remain intact post great-war? The social and political deterioration and disintegration of Bhaarata continued from 3100 BC until rise of Buddha et al.

The model of Daasharathi-Raama, for me is sustainable model for resurgence of India. Of course it has to be preceded by the purgatory actions of Bhaargava-Raama. A complete Avataara of Vishnu is last thing India wants now. Of course, time won't stop that from happening when it has to. But an avataara tends to screw-up things. Complete the avatara, bigger is the problem. This kalki will not be a complete avataara, but partially a Bhaargava-Raama redux :)

He will either choose his Kashyapa and leave this earth without making fuss OR If life and Mahakaal permits he will change the mindset and become somewhat similar to Daasharathi-Raama to consolidate and expand in sustainable way.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Bji, Can we say Krishna's concept was that of a modern nation-state with invariant values something like Westphalian in concept?

BTW, My son was pointing to the evolution of action in the avataras. In Varaha and Narsimha avatara, Vishnu kills the asura/rakshasa with his own hands: no weapons. In Vamana, there is no weapon usage but going beyond literal interpretation to gain Bali's exile. In Parasurama and Rama avataras, he uses the axe and bow as his weapons moving away from using hands. In Krishna avatara he uses the chakra and others like Arjuna to do the needful.

In one way its gradual moving away from use of primeval force to using the mind.

Atriji, Can you give the relevant quotes for the transformation of the campaign during the Mahabharata war and the effects of Ashwattama's weapon misuse?

And can you comment on his motivation and character for he is quite not well understood.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Atri »

I will hunt for the verses from MBH and paste them here shortly (by end of next week).

about Ashwatthama, well he is the "Paki" character. Everything that is "Paki" has to be dealt in a way Krishna dealt with Ashwatthama. take away the crown jewels ( :P ) from a Paki (weapons and raison d'etre) and there he falls into the shadow of nothingness. of course one cannot reason with a Paki. He uses his brahmastra any ways. that is something dharma and dharmiks have to suffer, if they were negligent and allowed a paki to get hold of brahmastra.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

ramana ji,
I do believe he represents that phase of Indian political thought where people were feeling the need to have ideological stability at the foundations of the rashtra. They had probably experienced the arbitrariness that can result within the dynastic process.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

Atri ji,
the failure of Krishna is exactly on the point of not being able to move beyond the dynastic model of succession and rashtryia continuity. When he attempted within the limits of structures of his day [too great jumps are not possible within a lifetime - as people will not necessarily accept what appear completely unimaginable and having no immediate continuity from immediate past] - he could only try to establish "dharma" as a framework to control the arbitrariness of individual autocrats in succession of a dynasty.

Did he really imagine the level of destruction that would take place? Did such a widespread destruction really happen simply out of war? or it was later on attributed to an overall catastrophe of which war was only a part? Was the MB story all a rehash much later in a time of similar lawlessness/decadence as an attempt to form a new politics - long after the real events were done for?

Krishna's actual role and purpose will crucailly depend also on the answers to these questions. Rama gave the Gandhara region top safe keeping - but again relying on succeeding dynastic setups to hold the fort. In the end it is now Pastun Taleban and Geelanis and Mussharrafs or Kashmiris.

With a dynastic model - the dynasty self-preservation becomes the supreme obsession, and not the preservation of the rashtra. Krishna was at least an attempt to move beyond that dependence of the rashtra on the dynasty by trying to establish a parallel set of values on which rashtra should be based.

As for avataaras - the theory goes that they will come anyway when they think the place needs a jhaaru and safaai. Are you asking whether the times have gone down that deep into the sewers? That is a difficult question to answer! My assessment is that "avataara" or partial "avataaras" feel great harsha in slaughter after a certain stage. Its a kind of great big hunting party and bonfire feast for them afterwards.

Once a man [all avtaars are men!] probably goes beyond the natural empathy for human life, and predicates "greater" purpose as above single human lives - there is little that can stop wanton destruction. Even Rama was not beyond such slaughter.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Rahul M »

Pratyush wrote:Hoping that this post will not be OT to this thread. Am linking the link to the controversial, "Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translation’" by A.K. Ramanujan

Link

and the write up in the First post which prompted me to search the link in the first place Who’s afraid of rightwing bullies? Far too many liberals

It is for the members to decide if the Essay deserved to be removed from the curricula
the essay was discussed in the distorted history thread and quite a few including me felt it didn't deserve to be taken off. I quite liked it personally.
Aditya_V wrote: Freedom is only for bashing Hinduism, Indian Army, Indian Companies etc...
there was no bashing of hinduism involved but I agree about the general hypocrisy of our fake liberals.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Few things I read in disparate sources -

~20 years ago I read a novel "Krishna" which describes the discussions between various people (Krishna, Krishna Dwaipayana, Krishna-Draupadi, Krishna=water=Ganga) to find a less devastating end. But it fails to take shape due to three people - Dhritarashtra, Draupadi, and Duryodhana. Satyavati was used to convince Bhishma, Dhritarashtra and Bhima to join Pandavas (thus scare Kauravas), down-beat Dhritarashtra with his birth details and Bhima (apparently he was shit scared of grand-grand mother Satyavati and take her orders without questions).

The dynastic model took an unexpected turn whenever woman's side made unilateral demands (examples - Devayani/Yayati, Satyavati/Santana, Kaikeyi/Dasaratha etc.,) on dynastic succession. In all other scenarios, the king selects the candidates and the selected votery stamps the succession (a formula INC is following IMO).

The Avataras of Vishnu show the aspect of Devine intervention in human form. We have many previous examples (I presume at conscious level before human evolution???) where Shiva, Parvati, Indra etc took care of those anomalies and Asuric tendencies.

Prior to Ramayana/Mahabharata the dynasties are resurrected, altered etc to give importance to Dharma. This is done by the dynastic kings themselves or an outside force took care of the weaklings. So even though the dynastic rule have an inherent preference to survival; the weaklings are destroyed without any mercy when the weaklings go too far from Dharmic path. It is of little worry to us IMHO.

The Avatars came only when a dynastic link is too powerful and also goes away from Dharmic path...
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Yagnasri »

In respect of Ashwadhama - After the Mahabharatha time he said to have came south and settled on a hill called Ashwaddha parvatha well known as Narasimhula Konda near Nellore. When Thikkana was translating Mahabharatha into Telugu he said to have visited him and sat through the entire reading of the book. After that he said to have met Thikkanna and told him who he was. It be believed he is still on the mountain. He is said to be a man of alomost 6 and half feet hight and one can not see at his face as it was very birght and eye are very powerful. This hill is part of Narasimha Swami temples that are found in costal AP staring Ahobilam, Simhachalam, Malakonda, Singaraya Konda, Narasimhula Konda and Penchala Kona.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Interesting observation. Isn't it fascinating that so many places related to the epics are in Andhradesa?

Have you been to Yadagiri gutta temple? Mangalagiri?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ManishH »

Dr. Inder Kapahy's article on Ramanujan essay in The Organizer
Those who are clamouring for the reinduction of the Ramanujan’s essay as a compulsory prescribed text make clever attempts to divert attention away from the actual contents of the essay.
...
Making one essay a compulsory reading is antithetical to all tenets of academic freedom. It amounts to Talibisation, albeit of the left variety, of cultural history and historiography.
...
It is necessary to mention that Ramanujan’s essay has not been 'banned', as is propagated by the uninformed cacophony raised by a section, but is only excluded from compulsory reading. Any student is free to read and quote from the essay.
Dr. Kapahy has some very valid observations. Also some outpouring of professional frustration or grievances he holds against the "Marxist coterie" who dominate teaching of social sciences in India.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Bji - a pointer to you. There was a king in Puru lineage called Samvarana, father of Kuru.
It is said that lot of human loss happened during his reign for various reasons and people suffered a lot and kingdom became very weak.
He wad defeated by Pachalas (his cousins few generations ago..)
He escaped to a place on the banks of Sindhu.
His descendants lived there for nearly 1000 years
Then Vasistha helped him/his-descendants to defeat his enemies and came back to Hastina. His son Kuru surveyed Kurukshetra and became originator of new lineage "kuruvamsa".

It sounded close to two things -
- Indus valley civilization
- Battle of 10 kings
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