India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

[Victor]

If EU colapses then it would have a domino effect globally , we would be greatly affected so will be US and China and every one , Dont even think about it

I don't think about it because EU will not be allowed to disappear down the drain. The problem is: what will happen AFTER that, with all Euro countries, not just PIIGS, on severe war-like rations for a long, long time. No money for toys when all you have is bread and water.

[Viv S]

1 : I'm still waiting for the MMRCA to be awarded before I can
ascertain a position on that one.
Of course if the EF is selected, I will have to agree with my Indian
fellow forumer that it was too costly.
On the other hand, if India goes Rafale we will probably find why
it was so expansive as the M2000H will most likely be highly able
to share with its big brother.

Why would you think the EF is too costly, if its selected? If the Rafale had/has a substantially cheaper proposal, it will get the contract. The fly-away costs have been similar. The Rafale may have an edge in the operating cost while the EF may bring the financial benefits of a consortium membership to the table. There don't appear to be a lot of commonalities between the Rafale and Mirage and those that wxist might not play a role, given how the competition is structured. The cost quotes for the both aircraft and their weapons packages are to be made and negotiated independently. Eg - a Rafale purchase doesn't guarantee a MICA buy, therefore Rafale Int. may not be able to bundle MICAs for the Mirage and Rafale into a single relatively cheap order. It doesn't appear like the Rafale has a decisive cost advantage.

That said, the point about France being the sole source of Rafale upgrades still stands. Few will be surprised if a request for a Rafale MLU a decade from now is met with an outrageous quote, which the MoD spends the next five years fruitlessly negotiating down.

2 : Idem. Jury is still out on that one. Do remember mate that the
offer to Brazil included resale rights over locally produced Rafale
for the whole South American sub-continent. If such a proposal was
to be included, India could very well sell to asian countries that would
rather NOT buy western.

That may not have been as hard to for Rafale to swallow as the term 'whole continent' (I assume sub-continent was a typo) suggests. For the foreseeable future, Rafale prospecst in South America are non-existent outside of Brazil. Venezuela bought Su-30s and Chile has invested in a few new F-16 B50s. While there is some interest in used F-16s and Mirage-2000s, the real requirement is for COIN aircraft like the Tucano.

Also AFAIK Rafale has not offered India export rights for new aircraft unlike Eurofighter that has offered India a workshare in all future orders as well as inclusion as a supplier for the consortium's current EF program.

4 : I expect the EF offer to include the Captor-E naturally.
And even though highly imprecise in true knowledge, I support Nick_S'
view that the Captor-E should have more range but it remains tentative
until that radar exists which it does not yet. in addition, radars differ in
the way that they operate and range alone does not determine all.

But without evidence one may even claim the RBE-2AA's performance is suspect. Also, while range is not the be all and end all measure of a radar, it is the single most important statistic that relates to it. In the absence of reliable data on other aspects (is the RBE-2 going to have dedicated EW channel?), range is the only thing we can compare. And the RBE definitely comes off, second best there.

[Viv S]

As for last comment, a fan is an amateur that has a preference.

As opposed to professionals?

Best previsions in 2011 go for :
Expected production summary
Country Tranche 1 Tranche 2 Tranche 3A[51] Total
Austria 15 0 0 15
Germany 33 79 31 143
Italy 28 47 21 96
Saudi Arabia 0 24 48 72
Spain 19 34 20 73
United Kingdom 53 67 40[52] 160
Total 148 299 112[51] 559

So one could easily argue that going from 765 without exports
to 559 with them is a 27% reduction in orders while the Rafale
went from 294 to 286 so far, less than 3% difference?
But that proves economical problems and fleet management options
as much if not more than AC true "value" so I/we abstain?

I believe the reference to the EF's large production order is in regards with the larger future market for upgrades and well as components/parts sourced from India (primarily HAL). Though yes, it has been known to be quoted as a rhetoric tool.

Coming the numbers I'm a little unclear here. The EF numbers don't seem to be capped at 559, which is the number that's actually been ordered so far. The corresponding figure for the Rafale should be 180. 286 is just an intention so far, with no financial commitment from the state and ,unless I'm mistaken, no punitive clauses activated in the event of a downsize.

[Austin]

I don't think about it because EU will not be allowed to disappear down the drain. The problem is: what will happen AFTER that, with all Euro countries, not just PIIGS, on severe war-like rations for a long, long time. No money for toys when all you have is bread and water.

I think we are over dramatising the situation , if at all we reach the situation and this is a BIG IF ( its as good as IF we found a martian ) then it will work out in Indias favour where we can bargain for movement of production line to India in return for financial viability of EADS and that would also help them make the product more competitive.

[SaiK]

I think the weigh scale will turn towards which of these two a/cs with its weapons package sound really threatening to Chippanda club. They have already indicated a sense of fear for the MMRCA acquisition, and coming up with alternative strategies to spoil this purchase with commie-centric blobs and ddm moorkh messages.

We really do not need MMRCA for the pakis. Our current capability is quite enough, especially having about 100 odd LCAs, and another 100 of the LCA++ with Kaveri. Porting desi components in the longer run is the key for MMRCA winner, be it ASTRA or Kaveri or vetriivel++ mission computer. Brahmos porting is another good thing for this puppy.

The only issue with Rafale is the smaller size as it is already cramped.. whereas Ef has larger rooms for anything we can think off. Having Rf taking higher valued cheque for the M2K upgrade, and our babooze clearly following the path of elimination based on satisfying earlier with smaller but reasonable(may be unreasonable for our pockets) order the pattern has clearly established a fish-bone-> look to the winner [logical conclusion].

The only way Ef can screw up now is by shooting itself in its shoe by some German protester or some minister in England spewing venom or Manio ji loses power in dilli.

Please remember, the EJ200+ for LCA++ lost solely because of bad and late marketing technique not really understanding MoD and desi sdre principles. They have learned a big lesson.

Ef also allows many raytheon products porting easy, and allowing full participation of profit margin sharing for all sales in desh [not sure what they mean by partnership here in terms of profit? or it could mean the 50% offset as the partnership definition].

[Taygibay]

Why would you think the EF is too costly,

I did not say that, mate; I was referring to the M2K upgrade
And there should be many commonalities between post-upgrade M2000h
and Rafale. The same goes for the UAE's dashnines, mini-Raffys (EWS).

I think that the ToT should allow for India to upgrade with any equipment
it wants. If that is not the case do not buy; goes for both planes.

(I assume sub-continent was a typo)

Nope, South America ( as Central & North AM. ) is a
subcontinent. America as a whole is a continent.
And there are few export prospects now but economy fluctuates.
Politics may help too but yes the offer was with export rights.

But without evidence one may even claim the RBE-2AA's performance is suspect.

Without evidence, all one claims is utter BS. Flap your arms and fly to the moon?

is the RBE-2 going to have dedicated EW channel?

It already does by way of integration to SPECTRA in PESA form.
Why would the drop modes for the AESA?

And the RBE definitely comes off, second best there.

LOL to US AESAs sure but to non-existent euro ones?
It's as if you did not have kids and I insisted that your son runs faster than you.

The EF numbers don't seem to be capped at 559, which is the number that's actually been ordered so far. The corresponding figure for the Rafale should be 180. 286 is just an intention so far

Hum? the EF nations have stated intents NOT to buy more ACs.
France has stated they will buy those.
If you play on intent, do it both ways, Viv buddy?

As opposed to professionals?

As opposed to both professionals and an amateur
who has no preference and only weighs facts.


Good day gang, Tay.

[nachiket]

^^^

At this juncture going for AIM120 will create a needless museum of BVR AAMS. With the R77, MICA, ASTRA, AIM 120D. While the Astra will be carreied by every aircraft of IAF, the rest will be limited to certain platforms. Adding to logistical burden for the IAF.

Well if we buy the Typhoon, this museum will be created anyway, since the aircraft is not cleared for any of the BVRAAM's that the IAF operates (including the MICA to be procured during the M2k upgrade). But the IAF will most likely go the Meteor route once it is ready. Till then the Typhoon might enjoy a BVR advantage over the Rafale if the MICA indeed has a smaller range than the AMRAAM-120C7.

[SaiK]

I think weapons package is the primary reason for distancing from unkill supplies over so many years. We are not in a clear mind state to assume that the times have changed. With unkill supplies, we have to take it with a pinch of salt, as any time some jackal or hyde congressman can put the breaks, and we are in a soup.

Unless the whole package is assembled and manufactured in desh, with no external controls. Kargil - 2 may not be that far nor operation take back aksai chin in the future.

It has to be a measured addition of supplies, and I hope we could use them against pakistan territory and check out how they react. imho, there will huge pressure from pakis, and unkill will go, you can't use the weapon against my favorite condom kid.

[Viv S]

Why would you think the EF is too costly,

I did not say that, mate; I was referring to the M2K upgrade
And there should be many commonalities between post-upgrade M2000h
and Rafale. The same goes for the UAE's dashnines, mini-Raffys (EWS).

I suppose there's no real way of authoritatively telling the extent (until the specifics of the Mirage upgrade and Rafale offer are released) and unfortunately its unlikely to have a bearing on the current process. Most of the assumed commonalities aren't going to come into play until after the aircraft is ordered since the munitions complement is budgeted separately.

I think that the ToT should allow for India to upgrade with any equipment
it wants. If that is not the case do not buy; goes for both planes.

Of course India will have the right to upgrade the equipment independently, but as the Mirage upgrade demonstrated - the OEM is almost always the winner by default, due to the MoD's typical risk aversion (hard lessons were learned during the IN's Kilo upgrades). On the other hand, if there are technical or monetary hurdles in independent development, with the EF India has the option of directly approaching the OEMs, entering a cost sharing partnership with the UK, or Germany or both, or participating in it as a consortium venture.

(I assume sub-continent was a typo)

Nope, South America ( as Central & North AM. ) is a
subcontinent. America as a whole is a continent.
And there are few export prospects now but economy fluctuates.

Oookay. AFAIK South America is generally considered a continent and subcontinent usually used to refer to South Asia, but I suppose there are no hard and fast rules about that and South America, Europe, the Middle East and maybe even Greenland could be classified as subcontinents as well.

Politics may help too but yes the offer was with export rights.

Do you have a link or some other reference for that?

But without evidence one may even claim the RBE-2AA's performance is suspect.

Without evidence, all one claims is utter BS. Flap your arms and fly to the moon?

Point is, why is the Captor-E's quality suspect while that of the RBE-2 proven?

is the RBE-2 going to have dedicated EW channel?

It already does by way of integration to SPECTRA in PESA form.
Why would the drop modes for the AESA?

In that sense even the EF has one by integration of the DASS and its solid state antennas. I was referring to the radar having a dedicated EW channel (similar to the newer American AESAs). The radar, even used fractionally, will be able to emit power well in excess of anything DASS or SPECTRA can manage, albeit in a relatively narrow sweep of space.

And the RBE definitely comes off, second best there.

LOL to US AESAs sure but to non-existent euro ones?
It's as if you did not have kids and I insisted that your son runs faster than you.

So the Captor-E is irrelevant to the discussion until it enters service? And any assumption about its greater size resulting in greater power output is false, until proven true. Because if that is the case, you could also claim that the PAK-FA or F-35 don't have an RCS less than the Rafale, because both aircraft are non-existent. And since we're talking about a variant of the EF with 2015's specifications, all comparisons should be off-limits.

Reasonable assumptions have to be made in the course of a debate. Or if an assumption is unreasonable then that can be discussed as well. If you know or believe within reason that the Rafale will field a better grade of T/R module or heck even an GaN set within the same timeline, do share, enlighten the rest of us and I'll retract my statement about the aircraft's probable range.

The EF numbers don't seem to be capped at 559, which is the number that's actually been ordered so far. The corresponding figure for the Rafale should be 180. 286 is just an intention so far

Hum? the EF nations have stated intents NOT to buy more ACs.
France has stated they will buy those.
If you play on intent, do it both ways, Viv buddy?

On the contrary, you were comparing the EF's actual order book with the Rafale's presumed order book. The Eurofighter members intend to replace domestic orders with exports since the financial penalties attached to a cancelled order make it a very expensive proposition. But the Tranche 3B order aren't expected until 2015 and the members have the luxury of waiting it out. Its the same with France, its not compelled to announce a downsize until well into the decade. There all going to wait and see and hope economic conditions improve.

As opposed to professionals?

As opposed to both professionals and an amateur
who has no preference and only weighs facts.

So you have no favourites at all? Completely and honestly unbiased?

[ShauryaT]

If this has been posted in this fast moving thread, then I apologize.
Why is US peddling a hangar queen?

It is the imperative to save the JSF programme that has prompted Washington to offer this plane to IAF. Delhi has to decide which combat aircraft industry — American, French or European, it will play the white knight to.

[Nick_S]

About the AMRAAM debate, I see no harm in acquiring a small amount of them, say 150~250 to carry us over till the Meteor arrives.
Meteor will probably arrive around 2017 and by then we would at most have 40 to 60 MMRCA. So a small purchase should be sufficient.

Another point is that the AMRAAM has an actual combat record. It is a highly proven missile with over a dozen kills. So it would definitely be a good buy.

.....

Thirdly there is hardly a combat record for MICA. It has got what... one combat kill against a poor maneuvering aircraft?
(ok ok... i am just flaming Tay now )

Has Rafale been tested with AMRAAM? MICA is much shorter range than AMRAAM/R77/SD-10.

[shukla]

No political considerations for MMRCA deal: Antony
ZeeNews

[sohels]

^Very unfortunate, for war is but an extension of policy by other means.

[shiv]

^Very unfortunate, for war is but an extension of policy by other means.

But sir, war also means subterfuge and deception. So even if there is favouritism no one is going to admit it up front.No?

[Taygibay]

@ Viv_S
Of course, I repeat, the price of the M2000 upgrade is only acceptable IF the MMRCA goes Rafale.
I said so many times.

On the other hand, if there are technical or monetary hurdles in independent development, with the EF India has the option of directly approaching the OEMs, entering a cost sharing partnership with the UK, or Germany or both, or participating in it as a consortium venture.

Same for France, hard to see why one and not the other??
MBDA makes missiles for both planes for instance and Rafale uses LGBs
that you can build inhouse with kits? Goes for both, mate!

Africa, the Americas, Antarctica, Asia, Australia together with Oceania, and Europe are considered to be Continents.

from : http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/continents.htm


Sales right :

... il prévoit un transfert de technologie «illimité», un prix unitaire de l’appareil et une heure de vol comparables aux conditions offertes à l’armée de l’air française ; enfin, l’octroi au Brésil de l’exclusivité de l’exportation en Amérique latine du Rafale fabriqué localement.

Tay translation :
"... it offers an "unlimited" TOT, a unit price and flight hour cost similar to the conditions offered to the French Air Force : finally, transfer to Brazil of the exclusive exportation in Latin America of the locally produced Rafales."

from here : ( and elsewhere )
http://www.liberation.fr/economie/01016 ... -le-rafale

Point is, why is the Captor-E's quality suspect while that of the RBE-2 proven?

One is in production, one is in design, the existing one has worth, the other will have worth.
Real and imaginary you know? But still in agreement that Captor-E should get better range.

dedicated EW channel (similar to the newer American AESAs)

Already the case, ask the Americans, they know but sadly my sources are not public domain yet. **
Anyway, moot until both are over their FOCs.

PAK-FA or F-35 don't have an RCS less than the Rafale, because both aircraft are non-existent

Different because there are prototypes/initil production of each, not of the Captor yet. Soon though
And BTW, RCS is so subjective, there is no agreement in any fora.
The means of appraisal of TRUTH in that field are not public.
We all run on educated guesses. All!
There is an advance for Thales but it may well not be there in 3-5 years.
I'll try to provide documentation soon time permitting.

Orders for Tranche 3B are all under menace of simple abandon.
You've seen the news. None such was ever said by the French govt.
The present target is 286 planes, not so with EF orders and announcements.

So you have no favourites at all? Completely and honestly unbiased?

I gave an assesment estimate of both ACs on a well-known aero-mili forum this very week
and came to : Advantage Rafale as a result. It was not disputed by anyone.
Hardly the work of a fanboy, huh?

They are different planes anyway and I repeatedly stated here
that I want India to make the right choice for its own needs.
As right here in my next to last post before this one :

As for last comment, a fan is an amateur that has a preference.
A fanboy maintains that preference through specious information no matter what.
Being one and not the other, I would heartily applaud the GoI/IAF and
Eurofighter consortium if they came to an agreement. In the same fashion,
I can assure you NOW that if the Rafale win that sweepstake, I will NOT
consider that definitive proof in itself of the superiority of it over the EF.

You just forgot to copy-paste and quote that part I guess?

I am French and love my country, served for it.
I like Dassault as a historical planemaker from before WWII
( more than the consortium can say ) BUT
in some cases the Rafale will not be the right plane and I understand that perfectly.
For some countries it would be better to buy EF and for some Gripen
and for others US planes. That's life, that's ok.
For instance, if the Air interdiction aspect is very dominant in IAF view then EF!

Thirdly there is hardly a combat record for MICA. It has got what... one combat kill against a poor maneuvering aircraft?
(ok ok... i am just flaming Tay now )

Has Rafale been tested with AMRAAM? MICA is much shorter range than AMRAAM/R77/SD-10.

Actually Nick, it may be zero for the MICA!!!
IIRC the Galeb was shot with an AASM, lol.
edited : I confirm that kill was by AASM.

And no, no AMRAAM was tested on the Raffy.

Good night all, Tay.

** That is one rare case where I just cannot source.
I understand that it may not suit you and am sorry but will not be able to help.

[sohels]

^Very unfortunate, for war is but an extension of policy by other means.

But sir, war also means subterfuge and deception. So even if there is favouritism no one is going to admit it up front.No?

True. But when it comes to this tender, is the apparent lack of a larger strategy deceit, or actuality? Predetermined procedural mechanics justify our chosen course of action; current geopolitics argue against it.

[shiv]

True. But when it comes to this tender, is the apparent lack of a larger strategy deceit, or actuality? Predetermined procedural mechanics justify our chosen course of action; current geopolitics argue against it.

The strategy could be to bypass criticism/delays from internal enemies on the payroll of various people who use bureaucratic procedures to shop or delay things as has occurred with other purchases. We just don't know.

[SaiK]

A gap of month or two actually calms the wave of those on payroll. Even exceptions can be treated like normal happy path cases.

[arthuro]

Latest Dassault add published :

[trushant]

The discussion on this thread seems to be still stuck in the comparison of two aircrafts on purely technical basis while the action in MoD must have shifted to techno commercial domain... commercial comparatives, cost of ToT, Defects liability period etc

For better understanding of whats going on right now in MoD I am pasting the relevant portion of the DPP - 2011

[b]Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC)[/b]
47. The process of commercial negotiations will commence, wherever necessary, after Staff
Evaluation Report is accepted by the Director General (Acquisition) and the TOC Report
has been accepted by the Defence Secretary, as applicable. The standard composition of the
CNC shall be as indicated at Appendix B to this procedure. Any change in the composition of
the CNC may be effected with the approval of Director General (Acquisition). Where considered
necessary, a Service officer or any officer other than from the Acquisition Wing of the MoD may
be nominated as Chairman of the CNC with the prior approval of Raksha Mantri. The concerned
organisations/ agencies should ensure that their representatives in the CNC have adequate
background and authority to take a decision without any need to refer back to their organisation/
agency. The CNC would carry out all processes from opening of commercial bids till conclusion
of contract. The sealed commercial offers of the technically accepted vendors shall be opened by
the CNC at a predetermined date and time under intimation to vendors, permitting such vendors
or their authorised representatives to be present. The bids of the competing firms shall be read
out to all present and signed by all members of the CNC.
48. It would be desirable to negotiate the licence production contract along with the contract
for the finished product. In cases where this is not feasible, the purchase contract should include
a clause wherein the vendor agrees to negotiate the licence contract at a subsequent date, thus
obtaining a commitment from the vendor to part with the ToT. In cases, where ToT for Maintenance
Infrastructure is being sought, the maintenance contract involving the OEM and the industry
receiving the technology would also be negotiated along with the main contract.
17
49. The process would start with preparation of a ‘Compliance Statement’ incorporating the
commercial terms offered in the RFP and that sought by the vendor(s), analysis of the discordance
and the impact of the same. A similar statement would be prepared in regard to deviations
noticed in the delivery schedules, performance-cum-warranty, guarantee provisions, acceptance
criteria, Engineering Support Package (ESP), etc. Comprehensive analysis of the commercial
offer would form the basis for subsequent decisions.
50. The CNC would prepare a Comparative Statement of Tenders (CST) with a view to
evaluate the technically acceptable offers and determine the lowest acceptable offer (L1 Vendor).
51. In multi vendor cases, on opening of commercial offers, once L1 vendor is identified,
the contract should be concluded with him and normally there would be no need for any further
price negotiations.
47. The process of commercial negotiations will commence, wherever necessary, after Staff
Evaluation Report has been.However, it is important that the reasonability of the prices being accepted
for award of contract should be established. In all cases, CNC should establish a benchmark and
reasonableness of price in an internal meeting before opening the commercial offer. Once the
commercial offers are opened and the price of the vendor is found to be within the benchmark
fixed in the internal meeting, there should be no need to carry out any further price negotiations.
The RFP in such multi vendor cases, should clearly lay down that no negotiations would be
carried with the L1 vendor once the reasonability of the price quoted by him is established.
Aspects of advance and stage payments (where applicable) should also be given upfront in the
RFP so that it facilitates selection of L1 vendor.
51(a) In case it is found that the lowest tenderer (L1) is not able to supply the entire quantity
within the prescribed time-frame, the CNC will have the right to divide the quantity amongst
other qualified tenderers (L2, L3……. in that order), on the condition that other tenderers accept
the price and terms & conditions quoted by the lowest tenderer. In cases, where it is decided in
advance to have more than one source of supply, ratio of splitting the supply would be pre
disclosed in the RFP.
52. Cases for which contracts have earlier been signed and benchmark prices are available,the
CNC would arrive at the reasonable price, taking into consideration the escalation/foreign
exchange variation factor. The endeavor should be to conclude the CNC early so that the
operational / urgent requirement of the indenting Service is met in a time-bound manner.


Someone mentioned "squeezing"...I guess after declaring the L1 they would reason out with the L1 vendor to get the various cost heads nearer to their benchmark estimates.

[rajanb]

Thanks Trushant. So it is a case of doing the contract negotiations after the L1 has been determined.

As for a split order, a) It should have been mentioned in the RFP and b) Only if L1 is not able to effect the schedule in RFP will they split the order to L2.

So it is one of them all the way....or at least thats what I understand.

[Taygibay]

Thanks Trushant.
About what I thought and great news.

Link :
http://mod.nic.in/dpm/DPP2011.pdf

Good day all, Tay.

[SaiK]

no, I don't read that way.. there would be no negotiations if a "reasonable price is established" by the L1.

now, this is where negotiations can happen to establish to prove that is Ef or Rf reasonable in the price compared with the benchmarking - confusing abstracts (perhaps mentioned elsewhere) not mentioning the methods & tools for benchmarking the price.

assumption:(him->vendor).

[sohels]

True. But when it comes to this tender, is the apparent lack of a larger strategy deceit, or actuality? Predetermined procedural mechanics justify our chosen course of action; current geopolitics argue against it.

The strategy could be to bypass criticism/delays from internal enemies on the payroll of various people who use bureaucratic procedures to shop or delay things as has occurred with other purchases. We just don't know.

No, we don't. We do know that the acquisition will have been neither expedient, nor thrifty. Its success lies merely in allowing the ripening of compelling arguments for its own cancellation.

[Kakkaji]

Just curious- was the Jaguar buy made for a MRCA aka MultiRole Combat Aircraft- HTF did it qualify its non existent air to air capabilities when it was inducted. the 2 WVR Magic missiles was an IAF adaptation and is hardly a deterent for fighters.

The Jaguar competition was for a DPSA - Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft. One that could fly low to evade radar and penetrate deep into Pakistan till the farthest airfields from the Indian border. Air-to-air capability was nice to have but secondary.

The experience of previous war was that Indian aircraft on strike missions were often picked up on radars and met by Paki interceptors. We needed a terrain hugging aircraft that could fly long distances at a low-level undetected, strike targets and come back. If intercepted, it should have reasonable a2a capability to defend itself, and not become an easy victim to Paki interceptors. Ideally, it should have two engines for better survivability, since a number of IAF aircraft had been lost after their single engine was hit or malfunctioned. The Jaguar fit the bill nicely. The Tornado would have been even better, but it would have been far more expensive for India of that time to afford.

The other competitors, IIRC, were the Swedish Viggen and the French Mirage F-1.

[ramana]

One vilified Indian jingo's research went into that data fusion package.

[VinodTK]

Fighter bid like no other - European rivals sit at long table as offers are read out

New Delhi, Nov. 12: The only military wing headquartered outside South Block in the capital’s Raisina Hill is the Indian Air Force. A squat multi-storeyed block, the Vayu Sena Bhavan is marked out by a scrapped fighter aircraft mounted on a pillar, its nose skywards as if it were soaring.

Visitors are allowed in only on invitation and after they are frisked, the irises of their eyes checked biometrically to confirm their identities.

Foreigners are rarely allowed into the building and even civilians must have their backgrounds investigated for permission to enter.

Last week, half-a-dozen Europeans were let into the building after going through security and escorted to the fifth floor where they were sat down at the end of a long table in a conference room adjacent to Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne’s office.

The Europeans were from two firms, EADS Cassidian and France’s Dassault Aviation. In one of the world’s largest defence contracts that is hotly contested, Cassidian’s Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale fighter jets have been shortlisted.

When their executives were invited last week, it was for the opening of the financial bids. The meeting was convened by joint secretary (air) R.K. Ghosh, the “acquisitions manager” for the IAF’s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) programme, the exercise to procure 126 fighter jets, an order that may be expanded to 200.

For both EADS and Dassault — as it would be for any other firm — European giants struggling to keep their assembly lines (and thousands of jobs) intact — the IAF order will mean a guarantee
:
:

[SaiK]

^^

The IAF has sought financial quotes in eight categories, called M1 to M8. M1 is the “unit flyaway cost”, the price of each of the first 18 aircraft to be purchased “off the shelf”.

M2 asks for the lifecycle costs – the price of running the equipment over their lifespan of 6,000 hours – of the different components that make up the aircraft (engines, airframe, weapons pods).

M3 is “operational cost”. M4 asks for the lifecycle costs of spares, fuel usage, a “mean time between failures” (MTBF), and lubricants.

M5 and M6 are the estimated costs of overhaul and mid-life upgrade. M7 is the cost of the technology that the maker will transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics that will set up the assembly line were the Typhoon or the Rafale would be made under licence. M8 is the computation of total costs.

The formula for computing the costs has an escalation cost, net present value and discounted cash flow built into it, a financial expert said.

Air force officers, however, worry that formulae have a way of getting disrupted in the acquisition process because they get complicated by the pressures of diplomacy and/or under-the-table processes. On the other hand, they also say that if India were to award such a huge deal to a country or a collection of countries, it would be foolish to not extract diplomatic and political mileage out of the deal.

While EADS wants to partner, Sarkozy does only repeated invitations to babooze. So, EADS per this article is wooing more practically than Sarkozy.


M8: The mother of all costing.. how the heck will they evaluate with that? this is going to be political in some sense.

[shiv]

Just curious- was the Jaguar buy made for a MRCA aka MultiRole Combat Aircraft- HTF did it qualify its non existent air to air capabilities when it was inducted. the 2 WVR Magic missiles was an IAF adaptation and is hardly a deterent for fighters.

The Jaguar competition was for a DPSA - Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft. One that could fly low to evade radar and penetrate deep into Pakistan till the farthest airfields from the Indian border. Air-to-air capability was nice to have but secondary.

The experience of previous war was that Indian aircraft on strike missions were often picked up on radars and met by Paki interceptors. We needed a terrain hugging aircraft that could fly long distances at a low-level undetected, strike targets and come back. If intercepted, it should have reasonable a2a capability to defend itself, and not become an easy victim to Paki interceptors. Ideally, it should have two engines for better survivability, since a number of IAF aircraft had been lost after their single engine was hit or malfunctioned. The Jaguar fit the bill nicely. The Tornado would have been even better, but it would have been far more expensive for India of that time to afford.

The other competitors, IIRC, were the Swedish Viggen and the French Mirage F-1.

True. The other point is that because of inaccuracy in weapons delivery, Indian aircraft would have to attack the same targets (say the radar in Badin) repeatedly and face interceptors waiting for them. So an aircraft with a much newer and better navigation and weapons delivery capability was sought. It is another matter that the weapons delivery was not that good and needed DARIN upgrades in SDREland to bring it up to speed.

[Kakkaji]

Since there was no 'multi-role' aircraft available to the IAF at that time, here is how during the 'modernization' of the IAF during the late 70's and early 80's different roles were assigned to different aircraft that were being acquired:

Deep penetration Strike -- Jaguar
Close Air Support -- Mig-23 (and later Mig-27),
Fighter interceptor -- Mig21

It was all going smoothly, with the IAF having an upper hand over PAF, until the US decided to supply F-16s to the Pakis. And that necessitated a whole new set of acquisitions.

[Juggi G]

Eurofighter's Air Show Moves

Click

[rajanb]

M1 to M8. Good detail.

All aircraft normally have different levels of stringent maintenance which have to be carried out after certain hours of flying. After all, we do not wait for an MTBF situ to occur because if the a/c is in the air you may lose the crew and the total a/c. So the ratio of one hour of flying time: hours of maintenance will be important.

The design and ruggedness of various systems would mean less MTBF. But the costs of a more rugged system? A better design would mean lesser MTBF.

The list is endless and the MoD has their job cutout for them in trying to come to the actual L1. Ultimately L1 based on M8 would be important.

And I wouldn't be surprised, that after each manufacturer has agreed to the MoD's interpretation of their financials as per a formula devised by the MoD, that the MoD is going to ask them to now submit their best possible price? I have been through this last stage, albeit not for military equipment but for $M deals.

It is going to be a Happy Xmas for one and a sad one for the other. I would not put much store in public utterances by both companies. Normally the quieter guy may have an outstanding sales strategy up his sleeve. Hopefully.

[SaiK]

the quieter guy is actually seducing babooze for high end services / one such interpretation from that report.

however, it has passed all tech evaluations by IAF. So, IAF is already happy with any one of these two.

[tejas]

The Jaguar lost the DPSA contest to the Viggen. Then president Jimmy Carter refused to supply the engine (the GE J79 I believe) and the Viggen gave way to the Jag.

[chackojoseph]

F-22 is a true stealth fighter, why? Cause only US AF flies it?

F-35 is in trouble, why? Cause there are other nations going to fly it?

Are they hiding something about F-22?

[D Roy]

what is left to hide?

Recurrent grounding and serviceability issues indicate that the OPEX of the F-22 is quite high.

design flaws such as the poorly devised OBOGS are also showing up.

once you pursue "all aspect stealth" and yet want a maneuverable fighter you face the very real problem of trying to pack in as many things as you can into a "stealthy box" and yet keep it aerodynamically sweet, unlike say the F-117. it was always a tall order and the F-22 exhibits all the problems of a pioneering effort.


One would expect that Stealth fighter generation 2.0 is more practical.

[member_20033]

Can they start a reverse bidding process where by the lowest bidder get the contract subject to both fulfill the stipulated minimum conditions of TOT etc

[kelesis]

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... st-364701/

It seems the UAE will finally don't buy any Rafale...

So why not some Typhoon?

[rajanb]

Can they start a reverse bidding process where by the lowest bidder get the contract subject to both fulfill the stipulated minimum conditions of TOT etc

If they do ask the two to come back with a final bid, it is as good as a reverse bidding process. Except in a reverse bidding process you state the price and the final price has to be below that. A reverse bidding process is normally used for commodity type equipment. Like routers, PCs etc. Using it for complex mission critical equipment is dangerous. Corners can be cut in quality of deliverables. Even legalese is subject to interpretation. And even with a contract you can do nothing but moan if things go wrong. We have to remember the stakes are too high for us because we have lost time and have depleting squadron numbers. It is better to pay a bit more and ask for a bit more.

I had read somewhere that the price of US$10.x B had been a price set in 2007 and has since been adjusted to reflect current prices.

My 2 paise.

[rajanb]

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... st-364701/

It seems the UAE will finally don't buy any Rafale...

So why not some Typhoon?

This report could be true or ir could be a twist by EADS, since the MMRCA is in, hopefully, its final lap. That is the way I would look at it.

For us it should be ToT and price. (Maybe some hidden geo-political issues too!)