Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

Posting reply to this post by Kamboja in the TSP main thread.
Kamboja wrote:Mods, I apologize if this crosses the line of what is allowed to be said but I strongly believe it to be true.

...

This disturbing but effective strategy also contains the key to the reversal of Islamic fortunes: and that is to liberate the women. If women are no longer prey, either pre-conversion as 'exposed meat' or post-conversion as baby machines and sex toys sequestered in four walls; if women could fight back, had access to education and career goals and dreams, and could pursue life as humans and not as the playthings of ghazis, then Islam would lose its vitality.

I am convinced that this is true.
There is some evidence for this, but its not so black and white. Modern Iran is a compelling case in point. Under the appearances of an adrenalized Islamist swagger lies an alter ego where Islamism is weak. And a great part of it has to do with the aspirations and even the rebellious nature of their women and their "temerity" to express it. There is also a clear trend of targeting and trying to bully womenfolk, a tactic turned on by the regime each time they feel the need to show who's in control. It was also widely noted that women were a sizeable portion of the 'Green Revolution' street presence.

Another noticeable statistic there is the high divorce rate. And then among stable marriages there is a low birthrate. The birthrate there initially shot up for a while during the war, when the faithful produced many offspring at the orders of their Marjas (gurus). But then it plummeted.

However, its not necessarily such a one-sided picture. Many educated women who affiliate themselves with Islamism of their own choice become very vocal and assertive proponents of this ideology, and make gung ho activists. As long as they are allowed to speak forcefully and pursue their life's aspirations, they are prepared to wear a tight sock and scarf on their heads as a bold public statement. In fact, I usually notice a peculiarly feverish drive among these women to attain some material achievement, in order to prove (to others or themselves?) how liberated Islamist women can be. Generally in Iran one finds more women going in for higher education than men. But many of these are now becoming sick and tired of the regime.

And at the other end of the spectrum, the under-educated womenfolk tend to typically cling to a Marja and his congregation, just like some Indian women like to be part of some adorable guruji's sanga. Its common for such women to be actively involved in constantly organizing home programs and inviting the Marja or some deputed mulla/molana to speak to an almost all-women audience. Once the short talk is over and praises to the holy ones chanted, it all then turns over to tea and snacks and plenty of gossip. So this culture also accommodates a large portion of the women from more traditional backgrounds.

I also noticed that the Islamist government in Iran is very smart in its social engineering strategies. Often they will provide a facility for women that seems very progressive in the short term, but in the longer term it is guaranteed to isolate them and make them less confident surviving independently in society. For example, I know that in the town of Rasht (Gilan), they had created women's only parks complete with exercise equipment and jogging tracks, and the freedom to use it without any hijab requirements. Younger women were ecstatic, to be able to be outdoors without a headscarf or manteau, jogging and using attractive exercise facilities. But as one slightly older female friend pointed out, by getting the public to swallow the segregation pill, the Islamists were setting these younger women up for failure in the future, since they would find themselves feeling awkward around men in the workplace. She had to get over that awkwardness herself, and she sees it becoming a bigger hurdle for these clueless young ladies.

As I said, there is some evidence to support your theory, though it applies to conservative traditional societies everywhere to some extent. But it is particularly sharp in Islamist societies because they wield the iron rod in enforcing such attitudes. This delicate but crucial issue must be 'educated' in order to crack open and break apart Islamism.

As for the rest of your post, I do think it was a bit over the top in restricting the phenomenon to one religion only. I have come across descriptions of the use and abuse of village belles even by some Hindu kings and zamindars. The erstwhile royal house of Nepal is a recent 'shining' example. Naxals and Maosist gangsters don't manage to get grassroots cooperation just solely at gunpoint. But I do agree that the Turks made a glorified sport of it far more than any other peoples I know. One Turkish friend of mine boasted with a cackle that they have a proverb in Turkish: "Turks freely take words and women from other peoples/cultures!" This was the macho excuse of super-nationalist Turks for the fact that their language would be worth little without all the Persian (with its Arabic) in it.
Kamboja
BRFite
Posts: 133
Joined: 12 Mar 2010 19:41

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Kamboja »

Carl wrote:Posting reply to this post by Kamboja in the TSP main thread.
Kamboja wrote:Mods, I apologize if this crosses the line of what is allowed to be said but I strongly believe it to be true.

...

This disturbing but effective strategy also contains the key to the reversal of Islamic fortunes: and that is to liberate the women. If women are no longer prey, either pre-conversion as 'exposed meat' or post-conversion as baby machines and sex toys sequestered in four walls; if women could fight back, had access to education and career goals and dreams, and could pursue life as humans and not as the playthings of ghazis, then Islam would lose its vitality.

I am convinced that this is true.
There is some evidence for this, but its not so black and white. Modern Iran is a compelling case in point. Under the appearances of an adrenalized Islamist swagger lies an alter ego where Islamism is weak. And a great part of it has to do with the aspirations and even the rebellious nature of their women and their "temerity" to express it. There is also a clear trend of targeting and trying to bully womenfolk, a tactic turned on by the regime each time they feel the need to show who's in control. It was also widely noted that women were a sizeable portion of the 'Green Revolution' street presence.

Another noticeable statistic there is the high divorce rate. And then among stable marriages there is a low birthrate. The birthrate there initially shot up for a while during the war, when the faithful produced many offspring at the orders of their Marjas (gurus). But then it plummeted.

However, its not necessarily such a one-sided picture. Many educated women who affiliate themselves with Islamism of their own choice become very vocal and assertive proponents of this ideology, and make gung ho activists. As long as they are allowed to speak forcefully and pursue their life's aspirations, they are prepared to wear a tight sock and scarf on their heads as a bold public statement. In fact, I usually notice a peculiarly feverish drive among these women to attain some material achievement, in order to prove (to others or themselves?) how liberated Islamist women can be. Generally in Iran one finds more women going in for higher education than men. But many of these are now becoming sick and tired of the regime.

And at the other end of the spectrum, the under-educated womenfolk tend to typically cling to a Marja and his congregation, just like some Indian women like to be part of some adorable guruji's sanga. Its common for such women to be actively involved in constantly organizing home programs and inviting the Marja or some deputed mulla/molana to speak to an almost all-women audience. Once the short talk is over and praises to the holy ones chanted, it all then turns over to tea and snacks and plenty of gossip. So this culture also accommodates a large portion of the women from more traditional backgrounds.

I also noticed that the Islamist government in Iran is very smart in its social engineering strategies. Often they will provide a facility for women that seems very progressive in the short term, but in the longer term it is guaranteed to isolate them and make them less confident surviving independently in society. For example, I know that in the town of Rasht (Gilan), they had created women's only parks complete with exercise equipment and jogging tracks, and the freedom to use it without any hijab requirements. Younger women were ecstatic, to be able to be outdoors without a headscarf or manteau, jogging and using attractive exercise facilities. But as one slightly older female friend pointed out, by getting the public to swallow the segregation pill, the Islamists were setting these younger women up for failure in the future, since they would find themselves feeling awkward around men in the workplace. She had to get over that awkwardness herself, and she sees it becoming a bigger hurdle for these clueless young ladies.

As I said, there is some evidence to support your theory, though it applies to conservative traditional societies everywhere to some extent. But it is particularly sharp in Islamist societies because they wield the iron rod in enforcing such attitudes. This delicate but crucial issue must be 'educated' in order to crack open and break apart Islamism.

As for the rest of your post, I do think it was a bit over the top in restricting the phenomenon to one religion only. I have come across descriptions of the use and abuse of village belles even by some Hindu kings and zamindars. The erstwhile royal house of Nepal is a recent 'shining' example. Naxals and Maosist gangsters don't manage to get grassroots cooperation just solely at gunpoint. But I do agree that the Turks made a glorified sport of it far more than any other peoples I know. One Turkish friend of mine boasted with a cackle that they have a proverb in Turkish: "Turks freely take words and women from other peoples/cultures!" This was the macho excuse of super-nationalist Turks for the fact that their language would be worth little without all the Persian (with its Arabic) in it.
Carl-ji, many thanks for adding some nuance to what was undoubtedly a black-and-white post. I do not disagree with anything you've written, and in fact had the same thought cross my mind about kings who were Hindu or Buddhist or whatever religion. Kings and powerful men have always taken many women against their will, no doubt it was true of non-Muslim Indian rulers as well.

However: the reason I think Islam is exceptional in this regard is that this kind of abduction and rape-marriage has a degree of approval unlike any other religion/civilization. This is because of the example of Mohammed.

Mohammed as you no doubt know is held to be the perfect exemplar of what a man should be; all Muslim men are supposed to aspire to emulate him. However, Mohammed also conducted war, including raids involving the plunder and capture of non-Muslim men and women who were enslaved. Mohammed also married and took for himself some of these women slaves.

Simplistic Islamic fundamentalism reduces Mohammed's life to: 'if he did it, I have divine sanction to do it'. Thus Islam gives divine sanction to the abduction, rape and forced conversion of non-Muslims. Certainly other men in other civilizations have preyed upon women, it is a side of human nature. No other civilization holds this behavior up as exemplary, even divinely sanctioned, like Islam seems to. The closest parallel I can think of is Rome; whose foundational myth included the story of the Rape of the Sabine Women. Even that does not compare to how Islam seems to justify the abduction and rape of non-Muslim women.

That is the despicable aspect of unreformed Islam that I was trying to call out in my initial post, and adding caveats like 'other men/religions have done it too', while true, would only dilute the point and would be a form of equal-equal that I wanted to avoid.


To your second point that women will not start abandoning Islam; again I agree. However I do not see that as necessary; for the vitality of Islam to be sapped it is sufficient that these women be independent minded enough to stay unmarried until at least the mid-twenties, and that they reproduce at or close to the replacement rate. Imagine if that change alone could be applied to Pakistan; overnight their population would stabilize. All those mushrooming communities of fundamentalist Muslims who are seeking to change the demography of Europe and the US -- if overnight the women were liberated enough to choose when and how to have children, suddenly the Muslim community would not be the fastest growing one around, and the demographic advantage that comes from breeding like rabbits would be lost. Think of all those future suicide bombers and mujahideen waiting to be born to reluctant women in Pakistan; if they could be liberated to the point where they decide perhaps three children is enough, in sixteen years that is one less unemployed, radicalized scoundrel taking potshots at our servicemen and women or planting bombs in Kashmir or Mumbai or Afghanistan.

So yes, Muslim women may mostly remain loyal to the religion that ties them down and denigrates them, but as long as they gain some degree of control over their bodies and destinies it will fundamentally weaken Islam, because it will rob the Arab imperialist religion of its biggest engine of growth.
Virupaksha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 3110
Joined: 28 Jun 2007 06:36

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Virupaksha »

Carl ji,

The credit for liberation of women in Iran should perhaps be given to the pahlava shahs. They removed the anti-women education bias which the islamists till today have not been able to put a lid on, not for lack of trying though.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

^^^ The Pahlavi shahs tried to liberate the women and contain the akhund (mullas). But they mismanaged it and it resulted in a huge backlash, especially when they had the police forcibly impose no-hejaab by walking up to veiled women on the street and removing the hejaab. Moreover, the kind of "liberation" they advocated was imported from the West, which was in its own throes of feminism and other ideologies.

Again, here what India can show is a middle road. As we develop economically we first come out of colonial mentality. This then leads to further exploration of our past and present, and we develop culturally and come out of dhimmitude. This will rebalance our culture at a new level. One of the effects of that will be gender harmony, and that our women will regain their status as per Vedic culture, where they retain and express their femininity without facing domination and abuse, but also without violating psyco-spiritual boundaries.

This is a middle road between decadent rebellious Western feminism and suffocating, downtrodden "religious" repression. So like our version of "democracy" with Dharmic values, we can export our version of womanhood also. This would be the real blow to the women angle in the struggle against Islamofascism.

Right now its all too easy for Islamist demagogues to justify their repression of women by pointing at Western decadence and sounding the "cultural invasion" alarm like the Iranian mullacracy likes to do. We even saw this in its worst manifestation with the sex-mongering Pakis in the UK, abusing young white girls. Each mentality plays into the other. And then Islamists will make some token concessions to a section of their women and claim "balance". But actually the culture of balance is lacking. It is always just taqiyya and Hudaibiyya.

So IMHO, in the struggle to neutralize and disperse Islamism, it will eventually be necessary for India to engage pro-actively at all levels, especially at a cultural level. We cannot afford to just sit back and watch the tug of war between the arrogant West and the entrenched Islamists and hope things fall apart on their own.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

I can't vouch for some of the things mentioned in this article, but here it is:

Iran’s Religious Persecution: A Death-Knell to Zoroastrianism?
Youcef Nadarkhani, an Iranian Christian pastor who converted from Islam, faces the death penalty for his refusal to recant his Christian beliefs as ordered by the country's Supreme Court. The Iranian government, whose decision has been condemned by governments and human rights organizations from across the world, has tried to reframe the charges, alleging that the pastor is now to be executed for rape and extortion.

Regardless of the government's official position, the court's verdict - "because Nadarkhani has Islamic ancestry, he therefore must recant his faith in Jesus Christ" - seems to indicate that renunciation of faith is the only ground for the pastor's release and, consequently, the reason for his incarceration and impending execution.

The entire affair paints a poignant picture of the idea of freedom of religion in Iran, where minority communities of Zoroastrians, Jews and Christians are vulnerable to pressures of conversion, official retaliation and discriminatory practices in employment and education. Muslims who convert to any of these minority faiths can be executed for apostasy under Sharia law.

Zoroaster, a prophet also known as Zarathustra, founded Zoroastrianism in Iran some 3,500 years ago. From the rise of the first Persian Empire under Cyrus in 559 B.C. to the fall of the Sassanids in 651 A.D., it was a major world religion.

The Zoroastrians' situation in their homeland began deteriorating when the Arabs conquered Iran in the seventh century. Zoroastrians began migrating to the rest of the world, including to India, where they are called Parsis, and eventually to the United States and Australia.

According to Jamsheed K. Choksy, a professor of Iranian studies at the Indiana University in Bloomington, roughly 35,000 to 90,000 Zoroastrians still live in Iran, a country of approximately 74 million people. Many others, he added, do not admit to their Zoroastrian faith, fearing persecution under the Islamic Republic established by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 1979.

"When the bloody war with Iraq raged from 1980 to 1988, young Zoroastrians were involuntarily drafted for suicide missions in the Iranian army," Choksy wrote in a column for CNN, titled "How Iran persecutes its oldest religion."

In a more recent incident in November 2005, Zoroastrian leaders who protested against derogatory remarks by government officials were threatened with execution. The community refrained from subsequently re-electing their leaders, explained Choksy.

Zoroastrians in Iran are more or less alienated from the political affairs of their own country. According to the International Federation for Human Rights, a number of legal provisions in the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran - its Penal Code as well as its Civil Code - explicitly discriminate against all non-Muslims. According to the Constitution, non-Muslims cannot hold government offices at high levels, including that of the President of the Islamic Republic of Iran; a candidate, according to Article 1156, must be a Shi'a Muslim (Article 1156). Additionally, non-Muslims cannot be Commanders in the Islamic Army (Article 1447) or Judges, at any level, the FIDH explains.

With only one seat allotted for Zoroastrians in the Islamic Consultative Assembly - Iranian parliament - they are "unable to play a role in mainstream politics." Moreover, Zoroastrians are totally excluded from selection through general elections and cannot become members of the powerful Guardian Council.

Zoroastrianism in Iran is on the verge of dying an ignominious death, with only a few thousand living in a country where their rights are suppressed. Unless Iran's next general election manages to bring constitutional amendments enhancing the political participation of the Zoroastrian community and other minority religious groups, there might not be any future left to them.

Choksy insists that if the U.S. and the European Union make religious freedom a priority in their foreign policies, Zoroastrianism could still be rescued, if not restored.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

I don't agree with all the viewpoints of this author, but it reflects what some Iranians think and say.

X-post from Islamophobia thread:
tejas wrote:http://amilimani.com/2011/11/islam-was- ... not-for-me

Although written by an Iranian former muslim, the words should be spoken by our Paki "brothers." This is a MUST READ.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

X-posting from GDF "link language" thread:
Murugan wrote:Could you throw some light how persian and sanskrit relate to each other. TIA
Murugan ji, I just speak the languages as a lay person, my understanding of the languages is not "profound" by any stretch, apart from common information available. Clearly the languages are from the same family, pretty closely related. Modern Persian is descended from "middle-Persian" (called Pahlavi), which in turn is derived from the ancient Avesta language, in which the Zoroastrian scriptures (called Gathas) are written. Avesta is apparently a sister-language to Vedic Sanskrit.

But modern Persian is heavily Arabized , both in terms of vocabulary as well as phonetics. Phonetically, most Pahlavi/Avestan sounds which Arabs couldn't pronounce were changed or removed from the language. Even "Parsi" became "Farsi", because Arabic has no "pa". Modern Iranians would struggle to pronounce the actual ancient names of their ancestors. For example, "Yimakshaeta" has become "Jamshid"/Jamshed. Prithawan has become Fereydoon. Etc.

Today's Persian derives a lot of its technical and philosophical vocabulary from Arabic. Certain great Sufis are responsible for "reinventing" the Pahlavi language into modern Arabized Persian while "saving" it from extinction. Other great Sufis like Shahabuddin Sohrevardi (who, incidentally, is Kurdish) tried to reverse this and re-introduce Zoroastrian terminology were executed for their efforts by the Caliph, on suspicion of being closet Zoroastrians. Now some Iranians these days are making clumsy attempts at putting together "pure" Persian words to form new "indigenous" terminology. But the fact is that without re-linking with its Avesta/Sanskrit roots, it will remain a hybrid language rather than a truly integral and composite one, neither here nor there. Dhobi ka kutta. To re-link, a conscious cultural shift will be necessary. In this regard, its useful to note that Parsi Zoroastrian student priests in India today use Sanskrit grammar handbooks to aid their Avesta studies. That shows how close the languages are.

However, we should note that the fundamental phonetics of Sanskrit and Avestan/Persian are different. (It seems that in a time long past, Sanskrit phonetics may have encompassed a lot more than the rudiments we see today.) What separates the Sanskrit branch of the "Indo-European" family tree of lanugages from the Avestan/Persian branch is that the very rudiments of Sanskrit phonetics have the imprint of what some call "Dravidian" sounds in it, which Avestan/Persian lacks. This is true of RigVedic Sanskrit too, not just later classical Sanskrit - these "Dravidian" phonetics are an intrinsic part of Vedic and classical Sanskrit. Of course, Western historians and their AIT have tried to insinuate that Avestan was anterior to Sanskrit and that it became Dravidianized after a period in the subcontinent. Whatever the truth of that, the fact is that all of Sanskrit (Vedic and classical) has the stamp of both north and south India in its genes! In fact, our inalienable southern heritage is what distinguishes us Indics from our Iranic cousins. IMHO we should keep this in mind also. Iranic can be considered a subset of Indic, but not the other way round.

Modern Persian also retains some inflections that are really close to Sanskrit. Same with vocabulary, many words are very close to their Sanskrit equivalents. Knee = jaanu (Sanskrit) = zaanu (Persian). Etc.

Apart from that one finds that modern Persian is of a different flavour from Sanskrit in many ways. Of course, in the complexity and genius of grammar, it cannot comare with Sanskrit. But as they say, it is a contextual language of "kenaayeh" (innuendo), where objects and actions are referred to metaphorically or by using a synecdoche, rather than with specialized and specific vocabulary. It gives the language a certain charm. Of course, Sanskrit also makes use of "upalakshana" and other literary devices a lot. It has everything, but in a certain balance. But Persian uses this form a lot more than most languages.

Historically, a much more of Sanskrit literature has been translated into Persian, with hardly any evidence of anything happening the other way around. Iranians translated into Persian the Mahabharata (which they call "Razm-namah"), Upanishads and various other Sanskrit texts relating to philosophy, science and mathematics. I personally don't know of any Persian texts that we translated into Sanskrit, though I do find that some medieval Indic religious movements such as Gaudiya Vaishnavism do contain certain memes that seem to be in common with Persian romantic Sufism. I may be wrongly assuming any linkages here, pundits can correct me please.

I would also like to say that I find it amusing when some people try to equate languages like Persian (and even Urdu :lol: ) with Sanskrit. The relations are useful to understand, but there is no equal-equal in my humble opinion, in an objective sense of neuro-linguistic power. Actually Arabic to some extent can be compared with Sanskrit in that respect, but not Persian, and certainly not Urdu. Of course, subjectively any person's mother tongue is more beautiful than Sanskrit, whether that language be Urdu or Bengali or Telugu, but that's a different matter. See RajeshA ji's excellent post on a platform for diversity and hierarchy of language policy (GDF login required).
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

X-posting a post by RajeshA ji from the Link Language thread in GDF:
RajeshA wrote:
Carl wrote:Persian is stuck in a limbo because they are not sure whether some Arabic was grafted onto Persian while they remained joined with the Indo-Iranian tree, or whether they were uprooted and grafted onto the Arabic tree! That's why I suggested that if the Persians want to regain that level of resolution and creativity, they would have to relink with the Indo-Iranian stem and root, and that today is only Sanskrit. But to do that they would need to make a cultural shift. By re-establishing and revitalizing Sanskrit in India, we create a standing invitation to Iran and many other Asian countries to re-link with the main stem and root, or accept new seeds.
Carl ji,

You provide another excellent argument for Sanskrit Renaissance in India.

Sanskrit being closer to the Proto-Indo-European language, would shift us again right into the center of the evolutionary outward-spiral of all other Indo-European languages, setting up a framework of etymological descriptions for the various Indo-European language vocabularies anchored to Sanskrit, thus putting India herself at the center of the Indo-European Sprachraum.

Let's say Latin was not just a classical language and the language of the Catholic Church, but say the official language in Italy. That way much of Southern Europe - France, Spain, Portugal, Rumanian, ~English would be learning Italian too - first to understand the etymological anchorage of their own languages and secondly as an important European language. Right now Italy's official language is simply like just another Latin derivative like French, Spanish, etc. and hence does not enjoy an elevated status. Similarly some learn Latin as an add-on to their languages for better understanding but it is not a wide-spread practice or enjoys centrality. But if one combines both motives, then learning of Latin would have become more pronounced, and Italy would have become a more important country in the consciousness of the Europeans, than it already is.

Similarly if we shift India's Link Language to Sanskrit 2.0, then we become if fact the etymological reference point for Iranians, and they will be more motivated to study Sanskrit 2.0 in order to better understand their own language - Farsi.

Important is the convergence of the two drivers - etymological understanding of one's own language (Farsi -> Sanskrit) and learning a major international language (India's Link Language - Sanskrit 2.0) that would provide a boost to Iranian tilt towards India, away from the Semitic encroachment on it.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

X-posting from Iran thread:

Notice the equal-equal, nay, the tilt, in the cultural charm offensive below.
This is exactly what India should be doing on Iranian soil, but with the reverse tilt.

India, Iran cradles of great civilizations: Iranian envoy
New Delhi, Nov 23, IRNA – India and Iran have been cradles of great civilizations and the messenger of spirituality, peace and friendship throughout the history, said Iranian Ambassador to New Delhi Mehdi Nabizadeh.

Addressing a three-day International Seminar on Hazrat Sheikh Sharafuddin Ahmad Yahya Muniri :?: at Patna, capital city of Bihar State, the ambassador said love and affection as well as cultural interaction between the people of these two lands have been so strong and profound that even temporary political tensions during the course of history could not break down.

He reiterated that the seminar is in fact a tribute to the memory of the ancient spiritual and cultural ties and bonds between the people of the two friendly countries of Iran and India.

He said that Iran and India are the unique countries which have the 9000 years old history and 3,000-5,000 years old cultural heritage. Both countries have had a common border for innumerable years :) {hmm, go on...} and these two people enjoy numerous cultural commonalities, like the Persian language, {huh?} architecture, music, art, several social etiquettes and traditions many of which still continue, added the Iranian official.

“The developments in these two countries should be properly studied after the independence of India and the victory of the Islamic Revolution of Iran,” said Nabizadeh.

The independence struggles of Iran and India have had many common features and both Imam Khomeini and Mahatma Gandhi believed in peaceful policies, :eek: he noted.
JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7127
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by JE Menon »

:rotfl: good one by the Iranian guy.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

^^^ You bet. :lol: The current Irani admin likes to focus only on the post-Islamic "commonality" of Indo-Iranian relations. We need to take them up on the "civilizational dialogue" gesture for sure. But in doing so we need to correct the distorted and edited impression many of them have.

A while back I was meeting a Persian couple, a first meeting. With great warmth, they told me that India was like just another province of Iran. They meant it as a warm gesture of closeness, but of course I knew where that impression was coming from, since I know what the current Irani education is like. I was a bit taken aback, and retorted that actually Iran was a broken fragment of Indian civilization! to which they both reacted with shock! :lol:

We need to let them know that no one in India knows or reads Persian anymore. And that just because a few Persian converts migrated to India during the middle ages to fill the courts of Turk and Mongol despots with their poetic flattery in return for bags of gold, it doesn't really count as a contribution to India at all.

OTOH, we need to let them know that these Persian intellectuals learned a lot more from Indian spirituality, mathematics, sciences, etc than the other way around, as is evidenced from the number of translations of Sanskrit works into Arabic and Persian.

Then we need to dig deeper and go into the pre-Islamic "commonalities" too. Bigtime.

So far, every such news item, whether on Indian soil or Iranian soil, only features a commemoration of some Persian intellectual in the middle ages who had something to do with India. Indian cultural managers need to correct the balance.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by RajeshA »

Carl ji,

An Iranian woman a former colleague of my wife, who lives in Europe, used to meet with her family from Iran in Turkey. The Iranian woman hates the Islamic regime and is happy that in Turkey they can meet in an open tourist spot without the Islam bearing down on them.

The point is there are many Iranians who do have difficulty moving out of Iran. They are not welcome everywhere. They will find restrictions in traveling pretty much everywhere except say in Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, UAE, Oman, Southeast Asia, and perhaps Pakistan. But the world is going either too anti-Iranian in Western sense or in Sunni sense.

India can actually offer a welcoming island where they can go off, do their shopping, go to the beach, enjoy the cuisine, the cultural festivals, the architecture, etc.

It is not just the Iranian atheists, communists, Ba'hai, Zoroastrians, Baloch, etc. that India needs to cater to, we can cater to the Iranian middle-class as well even if they are conservatives and would want to have a little more breathing space.

In fact, I don't mind India and Iran building relations even if it is on the basis of their supposed great influence in the Middle Ages in India. They can live in the make-believe if they want. To some extent we can even play along, IF it allows us to get more influence and access to the rest of the Iranian society, that society which wants to get rid of the suffocating regime or even their religion.

India should become the number one holiday destination for all Iranians. They don't have that big a choice. So even as we keep cordial relations with the Islamic regime for now, we can provide the freedom outlet to the teeming youth and those fed-up.
JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7127
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by JE Menon »

>>Then we need to dig deeper and go into the pre-Islamic "commonalities" too. Bigtime.

And while we are at it, innocently ask those Iranians we come across "Guys, what happened to Zoroastrianism? After all it was your original faith system, how did you guys adopt this import from Arabia"? And that's just for starters... Force them to think along lines they haven't... Iran is ripe for this.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

Iranians, especially Iranian women, should take note of the progressive culture of their persecuted Zoroastrian minority. Below is some slightly dated news from early this year or so. Can the Islamists of Iran emulate this? Is it possible for their ideological system? Aren't Persian Mohameddan women as capable and enthusiastic as Persian (and Indian) Zoroastrian women?

8 Zartoshti women receive Mobedyar (priesthood) Certificate in Iran
Courtesy : Jehangir Gilder

This year the Esfandegan or Sepandarmezd celebration which is the equivalent of Women’s Day in Iran was very special.

In the ceremony a group of 8 Zarthushti women received their Mobedyar certificate from Anjoman Mobedan in Iran.

Here is a short report of the speeches, that I have translated for you:

The first speaker, Dr. Katayoon Mazdapoor (the prominent researcher and university professor) stated the significant role of females in Zoroastrian society. She pointed out “although throughout history there is no mention of female Mobeds , but women always had an important role in the safe-keeping and guarding of the religion.

Dr. Esfandiayr Ekhtiyary, representative of Zoroastrians in the Iran Parliament said: “Today is an auspicious day because we learn what it means in reality when Zoroaster said that females and males have equal status. Dr. Ekhtiyary further added that we have many educated female and they are qualified to be Mobedyar and request the Anjuman to educate more females about the Zoroastrian religion, so thereby every year there will be a similar event.

The third speaker Dr. Mobed Ardeshir Khoshridan told us that , after Sweden, it is the Parsees and the Zoroastrian societies that have the lowest illiteracy rate, and this achievement is due to women’s efforts.

He furthermore said that since last April we had been planning to organize this event. There have been 15 applicants, from those who are older or from Mobed relatives. These were selected in a second round of screening, so that there would not be any controversy.

Congratulations to the New Mobedyar and all Zoroastrian women for this spiritual achievement!

Courtesy : armita atashband
Here are the Farsi language reports with plenty of pictures:

Link 1 with photos

Link 2 with photos
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

Conversion from Islam to Christianity may have cost Melbourne woman her life
Melbourne woman Zahara Rahimzadegan, 46, has been missing since December 16 when she was last seen at her Ashwood home in the eastern suburbs.

Attention has focused on Zahara's Facebook account, which has had four new posts since her disappearance, most recently on New Year's Day.

[...]

Evangelical pastor Daniel Nalliah says Zahara may have been abducted by Islamic extremists angered by her religious conversion five years ago.
Her name indicates an Iranian expat. A lot of Iranian expats to Western countries, especially women, tend to be drawn towards Western Christianity.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

Iranian Moslem youth leaving Islam for the Behdeen ('Good Religion'):



Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTmB-V0x6F4

I would consider the above video an exaggeration, but it is definitely significant. Most Iranian youth who pick up an interest in Zarathustra are in search of their Persian identity and an alternative icon to Mohammedanism, rather than any intention to take up the practice of any other faith.

In Persian identity, all roads lead to Balkh. This small province is now in north Afghanistan. Its the birthplace of Zarathustra, as well as of Rumi. And it was once the hotbed of syncretic schools of Buddhism and Zoroastrianism for the longest time. Its no wonder then, that Rumi's "Sufi" antecedents are traced here, where esoteric schools continued to operate in new disguise after the Islamization of the area.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by RajeshA »

Carl ji,

It would be great if the Parsees of India, who are in so many numbers around Mumbai were to finance a big-budget film on Zarathustra, staying close to history, but giving the movie good dramatics and nice landscapes, recreating the Zoroastrian grandeur. (Without SRK playing Zarathustra please!). They can use all three languages: Persian, Hindi and English.

Nothing gives such easy access to some past than a movie about it! It will be an eye-catcher!
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

RajeshA ji,

That would be a suggestion for a Bawa Rakshak to answer to. AFAIK, some Zoro groups were active in propagating their religion in Tajikistan, but that was limited. They have their own internal problems of deracination, too, which aberrates their endeavors to keep their faith alive.

While I do think it would be great if Zoros were able to use all forms of media, including the internet, to revive the memory of Zarathustra and his legacy in the Iranian mind, the solution would have to be more sophisticated, and one that reaches far deeper than mere rajasic nationalistic sentiments. I find that a lot of Zoro stuff out there is nationalistic, racist (bakwaas Aryan theories, etc.), and most importantly, rabidly Islam-hating. Apart from a small %age of people who may be attracted to this sort of thing, it won't help the situation, and even that small %age will fall away as surely as rajo-guna does.

I just made a post in reply to harbans ji on the Islamophobia thread, and I am reproducing that here.
harbans wrote:The fundamental behind the Koran is Jihad. It is the Pillar of Islam. It demands confrontation. Piousness is not a pillar to Islamic Jannat. Jihad is a sure one. Jihad is violence to the unbeliever in Islam. There is no outlet within Islam to curtail that because that is what was it's founders core advocation and exhortation to it's adherents. For those that Islam battles, it is best to create conditions where moderate and anti violence Muslims can quietly leave to faiths of their choice. In Islam itself there is no accommodation. Forget it. That accommodation or hope of it is a very dangerous path.
But that doesn't tend to happen. What is happening is that the moderate and anti-violent Moslems form a periphery around the violent types, and the covertly hostile face of the violent core has been able to allow such a space to form. E.g. in the West, for those Moslems who are attracted to Jesus, the Islamists have managed to create a "finding the Jesus in Islam" periphery, where one can love Jesus without taking the leap of disconnecting and confronting the violent jihadists. In fact, its an Islamic Jesus, better and safer than the Western version, since one can love Jesus without committing the terrible sin of mistaking him to be a son of God, since God can't have sons. I posted one such article on this forum, too.

The way out is to cross-breed Islam with a movement that is focussed on meditation, so that the recessive non-violent and meditational memes of Islam become dominant in the offspring of this mating. The product of this engagement will be a community that can lay claim to the name and estate of its Islamic parent. In fact, it can demonstrate and claim a superior, evolved status post-metamorphosis.

One good example would be movements like those of some Indian Gurus like Shri Shri Ravi Shankar, etc. Significant numbers of disciples are from Moslem societies, including TSP. Something as simple as hatha-yoga is very popular in Iran, and so is Buddhist literature. That has its own impact, just like it is having on American Christianity. Christian colleges in the US are making yoga a part of their curriculum, whereas not too long ago yoga was denounced by some churches as non-Christian, etc. So also, those Moslems who benefit from such an infusion of Vedic culture will remain Moslem, but their outlook and status on the reality scale will be changed forever. That kind of conviction does manage to withstand the pressure of Islamist ignorance, and does tend to get passed down generations.

If this is done in a concerted, programmed and sustained manner, real change is possible. I do not agree with your black-and-white characterization of Islamic philosophy and its possibilities, though historically that ideology has certainly predominated. But geopolitical circumstances have changed, and it needs to be taken full advantage of. Otherwise humanity will be doomed. There's enough leeway for interpretation in that philosophy, enough for Balaram to stick his Plough into, and let rip. All He needs is a cup full of Vaaruni.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by RajeshA »

Carl ji,

What you are suggesting for Islam, that is infusing Islam with Vedic principles making it less violent, I would say is a recipe we should use on Zoroastrians in order to blunt any anti-Indian racist angle! Zoroastrianism should be nurtured to consider itself a sibling and allied culture to the Vedic civilization. I wouldn't mind if Zorastrianism retains both its anti-Islamic but also its anti-Semitic (anti-Arabic) attitude. After all it was the Arabs who led to their downfall, and not the Indians.

Carl ji,

we may disagree on this point, but I feel the crux of the problem with weaning away Muslims from hardline Islam is their identification and identity-based coerced loyalty to the cult of Muhammad. As long as a person would define himself as Muslim/Mohammedan he or his progeny would always be vulnerable to the propaganda of hardline Islam. If one were to change that identity to something else, the problem is solved. However apostasy is a crime with heavy punishment in Islam.

So the method is that of Treaty of Hudaibiya. Let the Zoroastrians continue to live in Iran posing themselves as Shi'a and to keep working to undermine the power of the Shi'a from within.

The political situation at the moment is quite conducive to a massive expansion of the number of Zoroastrians in the near future. If there is an combined attack by the GCC/USA (perhaps covert Israeli ops as well), there is going to be a massive disenchantment with Islam.

Some may say, that Shi'as would become stronger due to that. I don't think so! I think they will see Arabs, Turks, Pakis coming down upon them like a pile of bricks, of stabbing them in the back allying themselves against fellow Muslims with Crusaders and Jews. There is going to be a nationalist surge! The Shiite regime could tap into it, but Shi'a regime has historically often tried to dampen Iranian Nationalism and promoted Pan-Islamism. I foresee strong disenchantment with Islam altogether.

That would be the best opportunity for Zoroastrians to win over young Iranians in the name of a strong uninhibited Iranian Nationalism. When Iran is under siege, the Shi'a would not target Zoroastrian Nationalist resurgence.

I see India playing an important role in converting Iranians to Zoroastrianism. Iranians can freely travel to India, learn and practice Zoroastrianism freely, and then travel back to Iran and pose themselves as Shi'a Muslims until the time is ripe and their numbers have increased.

I see the problem with the Muslims having to identify themselves as Muslims, adherents of Muhammad and Islam. In Abrahamic traditions, important is not the beliefs, the outlook, the practices, etc. but rather the identification with a brotherhood. That identification needs to break!
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

RajeshA wrote:What you are suggesting for Islam, that is infusing Islam with Vedic principles making it less violent, I would say is a recipe we should use on Zoroastrians in order to blunt any anti-Indian racist angle! Zoroastrianism should be nurtured to consider itself a sibling and allied culture to the Vedic civilization. I wouldn't mind if Zorastrianism retains both its anti-Islamic but also its anti-Semitic (anti-Arabic) attitude. After all it was the Arabs who led to their downfall, and not the Indians.
RajeshA ji, to begin with, Indian Parsi Zoroastrians are inexplicably "isolationist", even at this critical juncture. Some say it is because they are obsessed with the "purity" of the "genes", others say its because of some traditional strictures against proselytization. The Association for Revival of Zoroastrianism (ARZ) is a global body now that points out that Indian Parsis are becoming the minority in global Zoroastrianism. The centers of Zoroastrianism are moving out of India to places like the US, Moscow, Dushanbe (Tajikistan), parts of Europe, and even Tehran.

Consider this case: After the collapse of the soviet Union, there was considerable interest in Zoroastrianism in Tajikistan. But the Indian Parsi community, for the most part, didn't leap into action to help facilitate conversions. Well over a decade ago, a Parsi lady, Dr. Meher MasterMoos (who has also founded the Zoroastrian College near Bombay) made her travels in Tajikistan and submitted reports to the Parsis of Bombay, which appeared in the Newspapers and Magazines. These reports said that the population of that country was very interested in the Mazdayasni Religion, and suggested that initiations should be performed for the interested parties. But the Parsis with their attitude, did not accept her recommendations. Some Tajikis even travelled to Mumbai, but were not welcomed into the Parsi Agyaris (Consecrated Fire Temples). Thus the whole initiative fell through!

It is only Europe and some US-based Zoroastrian communities that are extending a helping hand to initiate interested Iranic peoples into their faith. while this may be good, it also means that the locus of Zoroastrian activity shifts towards the West, out of Indian hands. IMHO, this makes it that much harder to ensure that Zoro revivalism (IF it really does take off), will be friendly and subordinate to Indic civilization. Rather, pan-Iranic sentiment carries with it a great deal of "Aryan" racial nonsense, where India is characterized as the subaltern, downstream cousin, not the wellspring and reservoir of Vedic traditions.
RajeshA wrote:we may disagree on this point, but I feel the crux of the problem with weaning away Muslims from hardline Islam is their identification and identity-based coerced loyalty to the cult of Muhammad. As long as a person would define himself as Muslim/Mohammedan he or his progeny would always be vulnerable to the propaganda of hardline Islam. If one were to change that identity to something else, the problem is solved.
Both methods must be pursued. Where possible, conversion out of the cult. In segments not ripe for that, heavy socio-cultural engagement must be pursued as a means to create a "spiritual" space wherein significant memetic material can be deposited. Most importantly, Hindus and especially Buddhists shouldn't sit around and wait for Indian Parsis to become more dynamic, though we should give all support when requested.

Buddhism has considerable popularity in Iran, especially considering that Iranian Khorasan has a long and deep Buddhist history. In modern times also, Buddhist literature and influences are rife in Iranian popular youth culture. One of the most popular poets read by the youth there, Sohrab Sepehri, was deeply influenced by Buddhism (as well as Hinduism to a lesser extent). Here's part of a poem written by him, sung by rebel pop icon Mohsen Namjoo:



Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L46rRQNTNhw

Lyrics:

[chorus]
aani bood, darha vaa shodeh bood (2)
har roodi daryaa
har boodi, Boodaa shodeh bood (2)
Booda shodeh bood! (5)


It was instantaneous, doors had flown open (2)
Every river a sea!
Every existent had become Buddha (knowing)! (2)
Had become Buddha! (5)

morghaan e makaan khaamoosh
in khaamoosh, aan khaamoosh, in khaamoosh, aan khaamoosh.
khaamooshi gooyaa shodeh bood (2)
gooyaa shodeh bood! (3)


Birds of the space silent
This silent, that silent, here silent, there silent.
Silence had become speech! (2)
Had become speech! (3)

aan pahneh cheh bood? (2)
ba meeshi gorgi ham-paa shodeh bood (2)
ham-paa shodeh bood! (3)


What kind of arena was that?! (2)
A wolf had joined footsteps with an ewe! (2)
Had become a companion! (3)
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

^^^ A related report about Indian Parsis and their attitudes towards extending the gift of their faith to others, even Iranic peoples.

Parsis storm Zoroastrian College to stop conversion of Russian
Bombay Parsi Punchayet chairman alleged the institute’s head was indulging in ‘wrongful’ conversion, which is reserved for only sons of priests...

A group of angry Parsis from Mumbai, including chairman of the Bombay Parsi Punchayet (BPP), stormed a religious institute near Sanjan on the Maharashtra-Gujarat border on Friday morning to stop an alleged conversion of a 48-year old Russian into a Zoroastrian priest.

The Zoroastrian College, which is run by Mumbai-based Meher Master-Moos, 67, gets visitors from Tajikistan, Iran and Russia, many of whom go there to do short courses in the Zoroastrian religion. On Friday, however, it was a scene of mayhem after a mob of 45-odd people, including six women, stormed the premises.

[...]

Trouble began when news of an alleged conversion ceremony being performed for Russian Mikhail Chispiakov - who is in India on a three-month tourist visa - reached BPP trustee and chairman Dinshaw Mehta, who decided to go to Zoroastrian College and protest against the act along with some other community members from Surat.

“Our religion permits only sons of priests to train for priesthood. Training a Russian to become a Zoroastrian priest is going too far.

[...]

But Master-Moos refuted Mehta’s charge, saying Chispiakov is a practising Zoroastrian priest from St Petersburg. “Mikhail has visited our college at least three times in the past.

Since Zoroastrians are scattered all over the world, many come to our college to do research on our religion. Mikhail was in our college only for educational purpose and to study how Parsis in India perform religious ceremonies,” she said.

Both Mehta and Master-Moos filed complaints against each other at Talasari Police Station, but later withdrew them after Meher-Moos agreed to stop the ceremony.

However, some Parsis were surprised that trustees of their community’s largest representative body were involved in an incident that involved violence. “The incident needs to be condemned,” said Vispy Mehta, member of the Association for Revival of Zoroastrianism.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by RajeshA »

Carl ji,

it does make depressing reading. It is shocking how far the Indian Parsees have really become imprisoned in their small cocooned, where issues of "purity" trumps survival and renaissance.

I hope the economically successful and educated Parsees in India try to rectify the situation. This is an issue of high strategic importance to India.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

Art and Culture: a significant space

In recent years, the Iranian film industry has become a troublesome hotbed of subtle and overt rebellion against the restrictive codes of the regime. Iran's film industry is pretty high quality, producing a number of very artful and thoughtful movies that win international awards in Europe and elsewhere. This year, a Golden Globe and an Oscar for best foreign film award went to an Iranian movie, "The Separation (divorce)". Like most Iranian films of its genre, it has a continuous, allegorical subtext, and in this case it is a satire on current Iranian society. The constant presence of an old, decrepit man with rapidly advancing Alzheimer's disease in the movie makes for interesting comment. Like this movie, several other noteworthy movies in recent years by stalwart Iranian directors have this subtext of criticism and gloom about the current system in Iran.

Predictably, the government there has cracked down on cinema in recent years. Films have been censored ruthlessly, and at other times permission to shoot has been denied. In one case, an Iranian actress was sentenced to a year in jail and 90 lashes for her role in a film about the limits imposed on artists in the Islamic republic (see report here).
Miss Marzieh Vafamehr was arrested in July after appearing in "My Tehran for Sale," which came under harsh criticism in conservative circles.

The film, produced in collaboration with Australia, tells the story of a young actress in Tehran whose theatre work is banned by the authorities. She is then forced to lead a secret life in order to express herself artistically.

Now, to make matters worse, one of Iran's most talented and popular actresses, Golshifteh Farahani, has gone and done this:

Iranian actress banned from homeland after naked magazine shoot
The nude photo of Golshifteh Farahani has been published by Madame Le Figaro magazine. The publication has attracted a wave of visitors to her Facebook page from Iran and the Middle East.

The Paris-based actress left Iran last year in protest against restrictive Islamic codes that the Iranian cinema industry has to follow under Ahmadinejad's conservative cultural policies.

Now she said the government has sent a communication telling her not to travel back to her homeland.

"I was told by a Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guide official that Iran does not need any actors or artists. You may offer your artistic services somewhere else", Farahani said.

Farahani appeared along Leonardo Di Caprio in the Hollywood film Body of Lies as a nurse who helps an injured American secret agent to recover to carry out his mission in a Muslim country.

The publication of the photo coincides with the Iranian film A Separation being awarded a Golden Globe as the Best Foreign Film of the Year and a government crackdown on the industry, which has seen the authorities shut the House of Cinema institute in Tehran.

In a few hours after the photo was published Farahani has received thousands of comments from her fans on her Facebook page, with some blaming her for "indecency" and many admiring her for "the courage to remove a taboo among the women in the Muslim countries".
Here's a link to the offending photo.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

Birth, Death, and Rebirth

Islam's punishment for opting out and choosing one's own faith is death. According to Islam, being born into a Moslem family is the greatest gift a human can have, and therefore choosing to give it up for another tradition or spiritual system is utter stupidity. Even if we accept this as true, it is strange that this stupidity should be punishable by death sentence. Its a very strange gift indeed.

The Iranian regime occasionally makes a public example out of cases of conversion out of Islam.
Youcef Nadarkhani, Iranian Pastor, May Face Execution For 'Apostasy From Islam'
Youcef Nadarkhani, an Iranian pastor who in 2010 was found guilty of apostasy and sentenced to death for refusing to recant Christianity, may have received a final execution order, according to the American Center for Law and Justice and Fox News.
Due to this there is an atmosphere of fear (conscous or subconscious), combined with propaganda about the putative superiority of Islamic doctrine above all others, as well as its finality in history. The fear cannot be argued with. The statement of "last prophet" cannot be argued with, since it is an article of blind faith and acceptance. However, superiority of doctrine can be argued with. It is pretty easy to show that there is nothing in Islamic doctrine that is original, not even the relative arrangement of parts. Further, it can be shown that in many cultural contexts, Islamic doctrine lacks a certain context, the lack of which makes it dangerous and an anti-spiritual impostor.

Yet, there is hardly any penetrating theoretical critique of Islam, least of all from within the intelligentsia in Moslem countries. Psychologically, when there is a pain-driven psychological command implanted in an individual's unconscious, then the individual's analytical ability is driven unconsciously by this command, and yet it tries to find an explanation for seemingly irrational behavior. This is true of individuals as well as societies. In search of an explanation, the analytical conscious mind goes both outside in search of objective justifications, as well as introverts towards mystigogical explanations. Basically, the options before the analytical mind in the presence of unconscious pain/fear are:
1. avoid (circumvent) it
2. neglect (ignore) it
3. flee from it
4. succumb to it (and begin to justify it - like a stockholm syndrome)
5. attack it!

We see the feeble reactions 1-4 from intellectuals born in places like Iran and other parts of Moslem countries. But we rarely see #5, and when we see #5, it is imbalanced, pointing out objective instances of corruption or brutality, but not taking up the very memetic contents of Islam and arguing in terms of contents versus context. The latter requires one to consider a transition to a different civilizational iteration, leaving behind the chapter of Islam as a civilization. The cardinal values of Islamic ethics can still carry over and are accepted by one and all, but the civilizational transition would have to be definitive - as definitive as the original conversion to the Islamic cyst. This is something sceptic movements within Islam are not able to do. Part of this is the mendacious protrayal of Islamic civilization as something more than what it really was. The true qabilah method and its derivations from older civilization are not clearly acknowledged. The fact is that the critique of Islam and its history from within the ummah is itself so shallow (as demonstrated by the Iranian professor in the article below), that it only takes an equally shallow lie to reinstate the delusion.

A Paki journo pumps out the typical spiel one hears at suburban, bourgeois Islamist apologist-and-revival movements in the West and in Westernized sections of Islamic countries.

Disenchantment with Islam
A very large number of Muslims now openly express disenchantment with Islam. This is a global phenomenon: one can witness it in the Islamic Republic of Iran as well as its name-sake republic called Pakistan, just as easily as it is apparent in the geographical region where Islam first appeared to the shocking bewilderment of the custodians of the two sanctified houses.

These men and women are not a group of angry young people of a bygone era; they are mature, responsible adults in their middle ages and beyond. Most of them are educated professionals, although a small minority comes from working classes.

This disenchantment with Islam is expressed in many ways but it mostly takes the form of expressing a strong disillusionment with “political Islam”. It targets the character of men and women who do politics in the name of Islam: the so-called Islamists of Turkey; bearded men of the Pakistani politics, the “ruhanis” of Iran – as the Islamists are called in Iran – and gilded, often fat, and always self-proclaimed kings, emirs, princes and princes of the Arab lands.

During a recent visit to Iran, I asked a professor of a famous university: “Would you despise and disown wealth because most rich people are corrupt?” He looked at me in astonishment and when he grasped the meaning of my question, he explained that while it is true that he cannot equate Islam with the character of the mullahs, yet, he cannot ignore the fact that he is being watched for his religious obligations.

“If I do not go to the mosque for my noon prayers, because I am busy in the lab, it does not mean that I do not pray; I take time to pray in my office. But the point is: why are they watching me? Why do I not have the free choice to practice or not to practice?

“You do have the choice,” I said, “as far as religion is concerned; there is no obligation on anyone, because Islam is a matter of choice, there is no compulsion in religion,” I quoted verse 256 of Surat al-Baqra, but explained that it means that no one is forced to take Islam as religion, but anyone who proclaims the two testimonies of faith, comes under obligation of fulfilling the rights of religion, otherwise, he or she is either a hypocrite who has pronounced the two shahadas or is simply a sinning believer. This much he granted. Honesty demands that one fulfils the rights of one’s beliefs.

But those who call themselves Muslims while simultaneously disowning the political aspects of Islam are in a strange dilemma. They do not want to leave the fold of Islam and they do not want to fulfil its rights. Instead, they choose to talk around the matter and find a way out of their collective obligations as Muslims by finding scapegoats.

While it is true that many mullahs of Iran have become corrupt and most Pakistani politicians who have been using the name of religion to do politics are inefficient corrupt and have often served as stooges of dictators, how does using religion absolve the self-proclaimed liberals of their duties? Or do they not consider themselves part of the collective ummah, or do they not believe at all in the Quranic concept of ummah of the believers?

Where do they stand in terms of their political beliefs and practices as Muslims? Why do they not show their commitment to a worldview based on political thought that stems from the Quran? Why do they, instead, seek refuge in some imaginary “liberalism” or “humanism” which does not exist anywhere?

The worst case is that of the intellectuals who are Muslim by faith, but utterly lost in the wilderness when it comes to the foundation of their “liberal” beliefs.
[...]
V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 1380
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by V_Raman »

this article aligns with what shivji said about munafiq vs taqiyya
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

Since its Holi today in India and it culminates in the Holika fire tradition, we should send out greetings to Iranian friends too. Next week is a festival called Chaharshanbeh Soori in Iran, just before Nowruz, the Persian New Year. Chaharshanbeh Soori (Wednesday Feast) is celebrated on the last Wednesday of the Persian Calendar, and is a festival of colours and lights, and is marked by communal bonfires across which people leap, so that the fire takes away their physical and spiritual unhealthiness, and gives them health and auspiciousness. Children also wear disguises and go from home to home, trick-or-treat. It also has an astrological significance and has some 'muhurtas' for divination.

Image

Problem is, this is a pre-Islamic festival, and almost everything about it is against some aspect of Islamic law and culture. Nevertheless, people are given permission to celebrate it, but with some restrictions, especially due to the popular discontent with the clerical establishment and the tendency to use firecrackers and small bombs in the festivities.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Prem »

We have Iktara in Punjab, In iran they have Dotar= 2tar.
[youtube]OpQQZv7kL4M&feature=related[/youtube]
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by shiv »

Jhujar wrote:We have Iktara in Punjab, In iran they have Dotar= 2tar.
Interesting, in fact I guess that guitar and zither are words that come from Sitar and even earlier instruments with a "tar".
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Prem »

HI Doc .Here is Indian Iktara,
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by RajeshA »

Jhujar ji,

you've got to watch the whole video, to get the whole message of the uploader!
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by ramana »

RajeshA for you....
The Persian Empire: Taught By Professor John W. I. Lee, Ph.D.,
Cornell University, University of California, Santa Barbara Course No. 3117

Publisher: The Great Courses 2012 | ISBN n/a | Language English | | 24 Lectures ~ 30 minutes / lecture |

Course Lecture Titles:

01 - Rethinking the Persian Empire
02 - Questioning the Sources
03 - The World before Cyrus
04 - Cyrus and Cambyses - Founders of the Empire
05 - Darius I - Creator of the Imperial System
06 - Persian Capitals and Royal Palaces
07 - The Great King - Images and Realities
08 - Royal Roads and Provinces
09 - East of Persepolis
10 - Challenges in the West 513–494 BC
11 - Across the Bitter Sea 493–490 BC
12 - Xerxes Becomes King
13 - Xerxess War 480–479 BC
14 - Cultures in Contact
15 - Achaemenid Religion
16 - From Expansion to Stability 479–405 BC
17 - The War of the Two Brothers
18 - Persian Gold
19 - City and Countryside
20 - Women in the Persian Empire
21 - Artaxerxes II — The Longest-Ruling King
22 - Persia and Macedon 359–333 BC
23 - The End of an Empire 333–323 BC
24 - Legacies of the Persian Empire

What do we know about the Persian Empire? For most of the past 2,500 years, we've heard about it from the ancient Greek perspective: a decadent civilization run by despots, the villains who lost the Battle of Marathon and supplied the fodder for bad guys in literature and film. But is this image really accurate?

Recent scholarship examining the Persian Empire from the Persian perspective has discovered a major force that has had a lasting influence on the world in terms of administration, economics, religion, architecture, and more. In fact, the Persian Empire was arguably the world’s first global power—a diverse, multicultural empire with flourishing businesses and people on the move. It was an empire of information, made possible by a highly advanced infrastructure that included roads, canals, bridges, and a courier system. And the kings of Persia’s Achaemenid dynasty —Cyrus, Darius, Xerxes, and others—presided over an empire that created a tremendous legacy for subsequent history.

The Persian Empire is your opportunity to see one of the greatest empires in the ancient world from a fresh new perspective: its own. Over the span of 24 fascinating lectures, Professor John W. I. Lee of the University of California, Santa Barbara—a distinguished teacher and an expert on the long-buried secrets of the ancient world—takes the role of a history detective and examines Persian sources to reveal what we now know about this grand civilization. Tapping into the latest scholarship on the Persian Empire, this course is sure to fill in some critical gaps in your understanding and appreciation of the sweep of ancient history and its undeniable effect on later civilizations. Including our own.

Meet Ancient Persia’s Great Leaders and Everyday Citizens

According to Professor Lee, the Achaemenid Persian Empire was enormous, comprising 25 million people—only 1 million of whom were Persian. How did such a small minority manage such a large population? Why were these imperialists so tolerant of those under their rule, leaving untouched many of the subjugated population’s local customs?

In The Persian Empire, you’ll discover how the Persians were able to create and control such a vast empire. And the key to that success lay in the empire’s greatest rulers, each of whom played a critical role in shaping and strengthening a civilization we still remember today. Among the fascinating leaders you’ll meet are

Cyrus, ancient Persia’s first Great King, whose pragmatic leadership solidified the empire;
Cambyses, who through military prowess expanded the Persian Empire into Egypt;
Darius I, who created Persia’s imperial ideology and built up the empire’s celebrated infrastructure; and
Artaxerxes II, who held the empire together in the face of civil war and restored its power.

But while these great kings were administering justice or waging wars, everyday Persians were just as important to the success of the empire. Professor Lee expertly moves between the historical record—the story of kings and battles—and the lives of ordinary people.

You’ll learn about the empire’s efficient communications network, which in some ways presaged today’s globalized world;
the Persian economy and the workers and entrepreneurs who supported it;
the role of women in the empire, especially the power and influence of royal women;
the relationship between the state and the popular Achaemenid religion; and
the daily cultural exchanges between the diverse peoples of the empire.

Get at the Startling Truths about the Persian Empire

The Persians did not write histories, and no literature from ancient Persia survives; rather, the earliest historical narratives we have about this empire come from Greeks such as the historians Herodotus, Xenophon, and Ctesias. While important, these accounts detail the frequent wars between the Persians and the Greeks, and they tend to demonize the Persians as despotic barbarians.

Unfortunately, it’s a stereotype that’s persisted through the millennia. But The Persian Empire helps correct this misinformation by tapping into the ways that historians, within only the last 30 years, have been reconsidering this civilization. Professor Lee guides you through a wide variety of sources that finally get at the startling truths about the Persian Empire:

Histories written by non-Greek sources, including the Hebrew Bible
Persian administrative records and historical documents
Inscriptions by Persia’s great kings, including Darius
Long-buried archaeological artifacts and ruins

By learning from these and other sources, you’ll get to know the people and the culture of the Persian Empire on intimate terms. And, in doing so, you’ll come to grasp a much fuller history of an important early empire.

For instance, despite the negative accounts of war, the Greeks and the Persians had many peaceful interactions. Many Greek doctors, craftsmen, and especially mercenary soldiers were comfortable serving under Persian rule. It was this tolerance and practical leadership, you’ll learn, that allowed the Persians to maintain their powerful empire for hundreds of years.

Discover a Whole New History of the Ancient World

With The Persian Empire, and with Professor Lee, you’ll discover a whole new history of the ancient world—a perspective largely unknown even by students of history. In fact, even today very few universities offer in-depth courses on ancient Persia. With these lectures, you’ll find yourself on the cutting edge of historical research.

Recognized multiple times by the University of California, Santa Barbara for his teaching prowess and scholarship (including the Academic Senate Distinguished Teaching Award and the Harold Plous Award), Professor Lee is the perfect guide on your tour of this unique corner of the ancient world. With dozens of maps, animations, illustrations, and other informative graphics featured in the video versions of the course, you’ll get to know the terrain of the empire, which stretched from the Mediterranean all the way to the Indus Valley in South Asia.

Spanning these thousands of miles, the Persian Empire was truly a force to be reckoned with in the ancient world. Its successes were great—and so were its failures. The empire’s downfall to Alexander the Great and the Macedonians is a suspenseful tale of military cunning and historical circumstance. And while the Persian Empire ultimately fell, its legacy lives on in the areas of language, religion, and so much more.

Professor Lee’s The Persian Empire captures the people, the strength, the rise, and the downfall of this great empire, revealing the complexity behind centuries of a previously one-sided history. Take this opportunity to complete your understanding of the ancient world and discover the humanity of the ancient Persians.

About Your Professor

Dr. John W. I. Lee is Associate Professor of History at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He is also director of the Ancient Mediterranean Studies program and co-organizer of the University of California Multi-Campus Research Group on Ancient Borderlands.

After studying history at the University of Washington in Seattle, Professor Lee earned his Ph.D. in History from Cornell University. He has been recognized for his teaching talents at UCSB, winning the Academic Senate Distinguished Teaching Award for 2003–2004 and the Harold Plous Award, given to the outstanding assistant professor, in 2005–2006.

Professor Lee’s research specialty is the history of warfare in the ancient world. He is the author of A Greek Army on the March: Soldiers and Survival in Xenophon’s Anabasis. He has also published on ancient mercenary soldiers, Greek and Persian armies, women in ancient war, the origins of military autobiography, and urban combat in antiquity.

Professor Lee has conducted field research and led travel-study groups in Greece and Turkey, and he has visited many of the sites he discusses in this course.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Prem »

RajeshA wrote:Jhujar ji,
you've got to watch the whole video, to get the whole message of the uploader!
:x
I see, Poaqchor stealing "Ram Kare". Here is the right link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOvYQJmBOQM
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by RajeshA »

Published on Jan 06, 2009
By Setareh Sabety
Feeling superior - Incredible racism of (some) Iranians: Iranian.com Blog
I remembered my elementary school friend Mojib, also a Pakistani, and how my friendship with him was ridiculed by my older cousins. They called him my nokar seeyah or black servant.
But when she went on to call the professor “martikeh Pakistani” then I knew that my own mom was not free of the prejudice and arrogance discussed by Professor Rahbar. For many Iranians believe that they have a richer culture, a better skin color, and are generally superior to all Indians, Pakistanis, Afghanis, Arabs and Africans.

Through-out the years I have run into this kind of racism again and again. Of course there is concrete evidence of state-sponsored racism against the Afghanis who provide Iran, like the Mexicans in the U.S, with cheap labor. That is a problem, like the history of slavery in Iran that merits much more thorough and academic discussion than I can provide here.
Indians too would have to develop our own supremacist vocabulary!

Something on the lines of:
"Pale people are not blessed by the Sun, neither by the burning Passion of its Fire nor by the enlightening Knowledge of its Light!":D , or

"Pale people are people of the Shadows! Indians are the children of the Sun":wink:
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by RajeshA »

By Dr. Alireza Amir Nazmi Afshar
South Azerbaijan And Iranian Turks: CSIS
The Azerbaijanis are one member of the larger Turkic nations. The area that is currently called Azerbaijan has fertile land and pleasant climate. Therefore, for many centuries it had always been the destination of many immigrant tribes. After passage of the nomads, called the Medes, from the north through the Caucus plateau, a smaller group of Medes established a local government in southern part of Azerbaijan in 705 BC and named it Medes the Minor. One hundred fifty years later, the government of another nomadic tribe that migrated from the northeast Caspian region to the same plateau replaced Medes the Minor. This plateau would later be called Persia and Cyrus the Great is the man who established the Persian Empire in 559 BC.

The Turkic tribes and nations are native to central Asia, north/west and southwest of Caspian Sea. One of three languages that the Elam inscriptions were written in has Aral-Altai roots, proving the Turkish presence/influence in the area for approximately six thousand years.

Alexander the Great did invade the Persian Empire; however, Azerbaijan resisted his heirs as rulers. One of his commanders, Aturpat led this resistance. Some scholars believe that the name Azerbaijan is the Arabic version of Aturpatkan. During this period other Turkish tribes were also immigrating to Azerbaijan. At 642 AD, Moslems invaded Iran and after that some central Asian Turks conquered Persia and established their dynasties. The Seljuks were the first Turk dynasty who expanded Persia’s territories all the way to the Eastern Roman Empire. They also moved a famous Turkish Tribe, Oghus/Oghur to Azerbaijan.

There were two other massive Turkish immigrations to Iran specially Azerbaijan. In those periods Azerbaijan was the center of power and two cities, Maragheh and Tabriz, each for certain periods were the capital cities of Iran. Later in the Gajar dynasty (1794-1925) Tabriz was the residence of crowned princes until Reza Shah over- threw the Gajar dynasty and started the Pahlavi regime.

The issue of Azerbaijan should be studied in 2 different dimensions:

1.The historic issue: The presence and rights of Azerbaijanis in their native, historic land as well as the rights of other Turkish minorities who have moved there from all over the Eastern plateau for political or cultural reasons.

2.The current and legal issue: The natural, humanitarian, and legal rights of Azerbaijanis as the present inhabitants of the area, regardless of their past. Azerbaijanis are denied the very simplest of their natural and God given rights. In a territory that comprises one third of the land and population of the country, Azerbaijanis are forbidden from being educated in their native language. The same abhorrent scenario applies to the other ten million Turks living in various parts of Iran, including 6 million in Tehran. In addition, the government-controlled media does no t include printing, publishing or airing in our language. The lack of education and presence of media in our own language means the government’s chosen language is being imposed on us and little by little our children are losing our own language, history, culture and customs. Innocent people are being arrested, tortured, whipped, imprisoned, and often killed for practicing this very basic kind of a human right.

In the following brief presentation, I will not focus on the first question of history, but rather on the current legal and human rights of South Azerbaijanis.

Legal issues of South Azerbaijan

Azerbaijanis are treated as second class citizens and are forced into an unwanted and unfair absorption into the government imposed culture.

For thousands of years, Iranians of various ethnicities were living in harmony with each other through their historical ups and downs. From the very early years of the Persian Empire, Azerbaijan was among the most important, most populated and the most desirable part of the very large and multinational nation. Each territory had sovereignty over its social and governmental affairs. Because of this multi-ethnic and multinational make up of the country, Cyrus the great called himself “The King of Kings”. Each territory was comprised of a tribe, which shared one history, background, language, culture and custom. These territories that lived in harmony and peace under the great kingdom were called Satraps.

After the Islamic forces conquered the Persian Empire at 643 A. D., they chose to leave this multination system in place and to simply add to it their Islamic laws. This took the form of assigning to each Satrap local commanders, called Hokkam (the plural of Hakem, meaning the ruler, commander) for 300 years.

Likewise, when the Turkish dynasties took power after the Moslems were expelled, they allowed territories to keep their language, rights and dignity. In 1828, after a long struggle and war with Russia, Azerbaijan was divided and north of the Araz River, now the Republic of Azerbaijan was taken over by Russia.

After, the First World War, this part of Middle East was the center of ongoing struggles and fights. Leaders of France, Ottoman Empire and Russia individually and collectively were discussing and negotiating the possibility of invading India, then a British colony. England, fearing such act, was well aware that just two centuries before, under Nader Afshar (founder of Afshar dynasty), Iran had invaded India. England’s desire was to turn Iran to a defending wall against the desires of those who wished to invade India. Of course Ahmad shah was not qualified or dependable man for this mission and the British policy makers did not have much confidence in him.

Reza Shah was the production of this need and necessity. General Ironside of England met with Reza Shah, then a Kazak commander, in Qazveen. He was facilitating Reza Shah and his four fellow commanders to take over administrative power. The brokers of this transition were Seyyed Zia Tebatabaie a pro English politician and Mr. Riporter, an Indian citizen. Mr. Riporter and his family later played significant roles in Reza Shah and Mohammad Reza Shah’s decisions. General Ironside, at this meeting had two requests from his new agent, Reza Shah. The first request was the Gajar dynasty not be overthrown but for Reza to work as commander in chief and prime Minster within this dynasty. The second request was to never give a chance to Azerbaijan to lead the country. During the period of British colonialism or its intention of colonialism, Azerbaijan had always been the leading force of national resistance - few notable examples are, resistance against the granting of the country’s railroad rights to England, granting of country’s tobacco rights to England, dividing the country to three and/or two zones 1917and 1919 (North under Russia, Center under Iran and the South “Oil Region” to England, in 1917 or alternatively, dividing it into two zones, the north under Russian and the south under England 1919). Most interesting of these nationalistic uprisings were those for the enforcement of the constitution around 1908 AD. Azerbaijanis, especially Tabrizis, spearheaded this movement. The passion for freedom and liberty was very high. The force and impact of this just movement was so high, that Mr. Baskerville an American citizen working in Tabriz as an instructor, a true freedom lover, joined the movement against Tehran’s forces and fought with Azerbaijanis against the Tehran Government. Unfortunately this honorable American, lost his life in fight against Evil, but his name always will be remembered as a martyr of freedom, and will remind the Azeri Turks of American philosophy and belief.

Of the two issues that the British General requested from Reza Shag, the first one was ignored. Very shortly after the coup, temptation of power and thoughts of self-importance persuaded him to over throw the King and crown himself as the King. He called his dynasty the Pahlavi dynasty. He did keep the second promise to General Ironside. By choosing the Name Pahlavi, he aimed to relate himself to the pre-Islam Sassanid Kingdom. He declared war against everybody that was not of Persian ethnicity, directly targeting Azerbaijanis and other Turks living in Iran.

He also, committed himself to ridding Islamic customs out of the society. (After fifty years, for the reaction of anti-Turk, anti-Islamextreme policies, Iranians paid dearly and the free world is still struggling to understand and reverse what happened to Iran. The main reason for Tabriz’s uprising one year before the Islamic revolution was not the love of the Islam; rather it was the hatred and anger against the racist regime of the Pahlavi dynasty.)

Reza Shah, using people’s dream for peace and security, centralized all authorities and called the nation Iran (land of Arian). Trying to find easy escape goats for the country’s shortcomings, he focused on both Islam and Turks as his targets. Islam was equally shared by people of all ethnicities, but targeting Azerbaijanis and other Turkic ethnicities was prejudice, racism, discrimination and inhumane.

Very soon, all the power hungry statesmen were incited to promote ancient Persian pride, and superior “Arian” race, and to blame everything on Non-Arians. They raged massive propaganda against Azerbaijanis and other ethnic minorities such as the Kurds, Arabs, Lors, and Balouchs etc. Changing and twisting history, creating a false sense of ethnic/race pride, and fuelling the flame of hatred, he created clubs, associations, and institutions to prove that in this haven of Arian Nation; Non-Arians were the cause of all economic and societal problems.

For thousands of years in this multiethnic country, different ethnicities had lived in peace, respecting each other’s culture, language and identity. After Iranians accepted Islam, there were always three main languages in the country. Arabic was the language of religion and science, since they had translations of Greek and Roman works of science and philosophy. Farsiwas the language of the administration and literature/arts. Turkishwas the language of the imperial courts, politicians and army.

By the end of the 19thcentury, when the constitution was being drafted, Farsi was named the “common” language and the preservation and promotion of other language was strongly suggested. Reza Shah changed the “common” language to the “official language”, ignoring rights of all non-Farsi speakers, which account for 65% of the population. His ethnic war did not stop with just ignoring the ethnicities; his short sighted, racist followers committed themselves to the destruction and forced assimilation of these ethnicities and languages. Arabic language, being the language of Koran, faired better, even though the Arab minorities were just as strongly targeted for humiliation and assimilation.

There was another reason for Reza Shah to hate the Turks. The previous dynasty (Gajar) was a Turkic dynasty, and all the well-known politicians were from the Gajar dynasty. This list included men such as Doctor Mossaddeqwho had the courage to resist Reza Shah. Reza Shah without any education, and political experience was naturally feeling threatened.

Reza Shah was so inspired by Hitler that he even dressed like him. He could not cause the devastations of the Nazis but he would do all he could to cause an ethnic, linguistic and cultural eradication. He destroyed the economy of Azerbaijan, tried to destroy the people’s identity, culture and worse of all, their language. He knew if the language and education were taken away, slowly the forced assimilation would result. His love and inspiration for Hitler caused the invasion of Iran in the Second World War by the alliance forces. Reza Shah was not trusted by the alliance forces because of rhetoric about the “Arian Nation” and his passion and his strong admiration for Hitler’s deeds in creating a “pure Arian nation”. Reza Shah was sent to exile and his son was sworn in by the parliament to take over the throne.

His son Mohammad Reza had his struggles and was forced to leave the country by the nation’s nationalist leader, Dr. Mossaddeq, a prince from the Gajar dynasty. Kermit Roosevelt coordinated this infamous British and American coup. After the so-called “White Revolution” dictated by the White House and the United Nations, and soon after by America’s new policies during the cold war, Mohammad Reza Shag attracted support from the US statesmen. Unfortunately, he wasted this support unproductively and destructively. For instance, he celebrated Iran’s 2500years of Kingdom in a disgustingly extravagant and lavish fashion while most people in this poor country watched. He crowned himself the “King of Kings”. He also took the title of“AriaMehre”meaning the “Shiny Sun of the Arian Nation”. This was the “carte blanche” to the well-trained puppets of his government to squeeze the Azerbaijanis and other Turks out of life, respect, culture, identity and economy.

When he took the throne, Tabriz still was the most important city economically after Tehran. When he left the country at the Islamic Revolution, Tabriz ranked 17thin Iran. Any activity by Azerbaijanis toward their identity, language, and culture was labeled as pro-communist. People were imprisoned and killed under accusation of being Soviet spies. The history proved the opposite however.

Please note our national and ethnic problems and expectations in the following report regarding Iran given to UN.

VII. STATUS OF MINORITIES IN IRAN

A. Introduction

1.In his last several reports the Special Representative has been urging the Government to establish a national minorities policy. In this report he wishes to place this initiative within the international context. To begin with, the Special Representative would refer to Commission resolution 2001/55 of 24 April 2001,which “reaffirms the obligation of States to ensure that persons belonging to national or ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities may exercise fully and effectively all human rights and fundamental freedoms without any discrimination and in full equality before the law in accordance with the Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities”. The Special Representative notes that this resolutio n was adopted without a vote. In this regard, he would also draw attention to the UNESCO Universal Declaration on Cultural Diversity, adopted by the General Conference of UNESCO on 2 November 2001.

2.The Special Representative believes there can be no doubt that the treatment of minorities in Iran does not meet the norms set out in the Declaration on Minorities or in article 27 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. See in this regard the concluding observation of the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, following its examination of the initial report of Iran, that the treatment of minorities in Iran is one of its “principal subjects of concern” (E/C.12/1993/7 of 9 June 1993). The Special Representative takes note of the writings on this subject of one distinguished Iranian legal scholar that the Iranian Constitution, in articles 15, 19 and 20 and elsewhere, in part expressly, in part implicitly clearly establishes the right of all Iranians to equality and fair treatment, and that this right has not been implemented in practice. The Government must commit itself to addressing urgently the status of minorities in Iran as a whole and to bringing the conduct of Iran in this regard into line with recognized international standards, as well as with the Iranian Constitution.

3.The Special Representative hears frequent reference to what is described as the Government’s implicit policy of assimilation. It is asserted that such a policy was introduced first by Reza Shah, prior to which time Iran had been in practice a multicultural society. The Special Representative has earlier observed that the original draft of the 1979 Constitution did acknowledge that Iran was a multicultural nation in naming the main ethnic groups that made up the country. He would also note that as seen in the 1995 Copenhagen Declaration of the World Summit for Social Development, the right to be free from attempts at assimilation is emerging as an international norm.

4.The Special Representative believes that at the first level the rights of minorities consist not only in the right to be free from discrimination but, put more positively, that there is now an obligation upon Governments to protect minorities against discrimination and procedural unfairness. At a second level are certain positive rights, such as the use of minority languages in education and the media, and basic civil and political rights such as fair trial, freedom of expression and freedom of assembly and of association. The Special Representative draws particular attention to the provisions of the Declaration on Minorities in this regard.

5.Information reaching the Special Representative suggests that very little meaningful action is being undertaken by the Government to this end. The use of minority languages in the media is sporadic rather than substantive; the use of minority languages in the educational system seems minimal.

6.Finally, the Special Representative has referred to the need to involve the minorities themselves in the preparation of a national minority policy, a right articulated in the Declaration on Minorities. Whether or not it is accurate to characterize the prevailing atmosphere as one of Persian chauvinism, as some minority activists suggest, it is clear that the situation is discriminatory in many respects, as well as being incompatible with existing and emerging international norms. The Government necessarily bears heavy responsibilities in this regard and needs to make an urgent start on a national minority policy. For his part, the President is quoted as declaring that “Iran belongs to all Iranians”.

C. Ethnic minorities

The Azeris

7.The Azerbaijan Turkic-speaking people of Iran (the Azeris) are recognized as the largest ethnic minority and may indeed be the largest ethnic group in the country. It appears to be accepted that about 12 million of them live in the north-west and that in the country as a whole there may be as many as 30 million. It is asserted that the Azeris have lived on the Iranian plateau for thousands of years and that they predate the entry of Persian tribes to the area.

8.The complaints brought to the Special Representative concern the use of the Azeri language and that the unwelcome prospect of Azeri cultural assimilation is accelerating (see annex III). More particularly, Azeris are asking for the teaching of “proper” Azerbaijani Turkish along side Persian in schools in regions predominantly inhabited by Azeris, production in and the broadcasting of “proper” Azerbaijani Turkish on radio and television, the allocation of one television channel for Turkish language broadcasting, the creation of schools of Azerbaijan Turkish language and literature at universities throughout Iran (it is noted that while Azerbaijani Turkish is not taught at the University of Tabriz, seven other languages are taught) and the facilitation of the creation of Azerbaijani Turkish cultural centres.

9.The representations reaching the Special Representative also refer to harassment and imprisonment of Azeri cultural activists, such as Dr. Mehmud Ali Chehregani, whose circumstances were described by the Special Representative in earlier reports and whose imprisonment was the subject of urgent representations by the Special Representative to the Government. He has since been released. The Special Representative has received copies of open letters to the President signed by various groups of Azeri personalities, such as members of the Majilis and writers and poets, demanding fair treatment for Azeri culture. Their letters have taken the President to task for unimplemented campaign promises on cultural freedom; they complain of “cultural and ethnic insults and humiliation” from government media sources and they invoke article 15 and article 19 of the Constitution.

REPRESENTATIONS CONCERNING THE STATUS OF THE AZERIS

The following is a list of specific complaints received by the Special Representative:

Denial of cultural autonomy; Harassment and imprisonment of cultural activists;

The banning of the use of the Azeri language in schools;

The use of Farsi-Azeri hybrid, rather than pure Azeri, on television and radio;

Teaching in schools that the birth of the Iranian people came with the arrival of the Persian tribes and that the Azeri people are Iranian Aryans, forced to change their language upon the arrival of the Mongolians;

Changing or distorting Azeri geographical names;

Refusal to register a child with an Azeri name.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

On the subject of music - This is bad news, just a day before the Iranian New Year's Day, Nowrooz.

Jalal Zolfonoon - Prominent Iranian Setar player and composer dies

This personality is already a bit of an institution in modern Iran. Question is - Will Indian cultural agencies be proactive in leveraging this personality's India connection and create an enduring institution as part of its footprint on modern Iran?

It was Ostad Jalal Zolfonoon who brought the humble Setar out of seclusion and made it an iconic Dastgahi instrument. He also wrote books to teach Dastgahi music by a different method. He was full of joi de vivre, and a deeply spiritual man. I once had the opportunity to meet with him. As part of a group of local music students, we were around the Ostad before and after a concert. Before the concert, some of the students were tuning their saazes. One student had a cheap setar that always sounded obnoxious - we all used to joke that it would make a good chomaagh (club or baton), not a setar. We had never heard that setar produce a pleasing note, simply because it was defective in its cheap construction. The Ostad came into the room and sat down; he never had any airs about him, very down to earth. In a grandfatherly way he called the guy with the embarrassing setar over, and started to tune the instrument himself. We were all busy with preparations, hardly noticing - then suddenly every single person in the room froze, as Ostad started testing it out and played a tune on it. Those silken notes filled the room as he nonchalantly strummed it. We were all shocked because we couldn't believe those notes were coming out of that clumsy piece of wood. It was surreal. It lasted just under a minute, but it felt like an eternity, because we were in suspended animation. I distinctly remember that the voice I had in my heart was, "This must be the meaning of Mercy - a defective and cheap instrument can sound divine in the hands of the master." A humbling feeling indeed.

After the concert, there was a gathering at someone's beautiful home. So we got to chat with the Ostad a lot; he freely expressed his opinions on all subjects at length - something very rare amongst politically self-conscious Iranians. He said he was always a spiritual man, from his youth. At that time he would practice his music at khaneqahs (Sufi centers) in Iran, or when those were shut down by the government, he would be with private gatherings affiliated with former khaneqahs. Later when he came outside of Iran he broadened his horizons and studied other religions too, and then went beyond conventional sectarian religion and an extra-terrestrial 'god', which he said was a stupid aberration. In his autobiography, 'Gol e Sad Barg' ('Hundred Petaled Flower', also the name of a historic album), he says that he was thereafter influenced a lot by Vedanta and Buddhism to understand the human's relationship with the divine. His daughter lived in an ashram in India for some years studying Yoga, and I think she has a home in India now. His autobiography is full of references from Vedic and Buddhist philosophy, music, and more. But the Ostad was always learning, a lifelong learner. He was closely following Quantum Physics and its relation to the spiritual journey as well as music theory. In his autobiography, the Ostad also mentions the importance of refined music and the need to serve that tradition. The laws of refined Music, like Quantum Physics, is the inner reality of "religions", he thinks. So he recommends that one must first attain the caliber for oneself to be able to serve and continue this tradition - for the sake of other aspirants. In the absence of such truth, common people will be swallowed by dogmatic theologians, he said. He quotes the Persian poet Sa'adi in the introduction to his autobiography:

saahebdeli ze madresseh aamad be khaaneqah
beshekast 'ahd e sohbat e ahl e tareeq ra.
goftam miyaan e 'aalem o 'aabed che farq bood,
ta ekhtiyaar kardi az aan, een fareeq ra?
goft aan geleem e kheesh bedar mibarad ze aab
v'een jahad mikonad ke begirad ghareeq ra.


"A man of the Heart left the madrassah and at the Khaneqah arrived,
And in doing so broke his vow to the sectarian group members.
I said, 'What's the difference between sectarian theologians and devoted servants,
'That you chose this group instead of that one?'
He said, 'Those are protecting their own prayer rugs from the river (i.e., they seek salvation),
'While these are fighting to lend a hand to others who are drowning.'"

When I saw him, he seemed to be in bliss, no inhibitions, no eccentricities, very friendly, loving but stern and strict when it came to instruction. May his soul attain to the highest felicity. It was a privilege knowing him just for a few hours, and I feel a sense of loss. Here is a piece by Ostad Zolfonoon.

Last edited by Agnimitra on 19 Mar 2012 09:46, edited 3 times in total.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by ramana »

Does Zulfnoon means One with lighted hair or one with an aura?

ostad is Ustad off course.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

ramana wrote:Does Zulfnoon means One with lighted hair or one with an aura?
ramana ji, zolfonoon = zee (or dhee) + al + funoon = "One who possesses the Arts". Nothing to do with "zolf" (hair).
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by ramana »

Oh. I guess was gong by the Hindi songs "Oh Zulfoonwali, jaane Jahan!
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Agnimitra »

:mrgreen:
Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4852
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

Post by Neshant »

US has loaded the gun.

Very seldom does the US load the bandook and not fire.

So I'm waiting to see how this goes down.

If US does nothing militarily, it will lose a lot of "street credibility".
Post Reply