Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 22 Nov 2011 19:54

Bumblebee,
I don't think u caught his drift, its the re-christening which would be fiery

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 22 Nov 2011 23:09

http://i43.tinypic.com/mrg39u.jpg

Saw this gun in OFB pavillion in IITF 2011 along with a much better looking INSAS. Any idea if it's indeed INSAS too ? Both had same magazines and almsot similar dimensions, except for stock
Notice the new colour scheme. I liked it

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 22 Nov 2011 23:33

Jamwal ji, are there are other pics from other angles? Or close ups?
Because the gun right in front looks quite different from the INSAS. The magazine is actually quite longer, almost as big as the INSAS LMG mag. Even that part which you hold in the front while firing (I don't know what it is called) is different from INSAS. It actually resembles MSMC's 'holder'

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 23 Nov 2011 00:13

^^ Looks like ExCalibur

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 Nov 2011 00:15

Jamwal mian,
Do you have a picture from another angle???
I don't know why but i feel this is another avatar of the Excalibur.
Added Later- I see Sharmaji has beaten me to it.

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 23 Nov 2011 09:35

i have question

Why didn't we started our LCA with a Russian engine like the pandas till kaveri gets matured what is the reason for going for an American one please gurus throw some light

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 23 Nov 2011 14:27

Atreya jii, It's call stock or butt

INSAS was marked "5.56mm Assault rifle Fixed Stock" while this one was simply marked "5.56mm Assault rifle".
Sorry, I don't have any other picture as this one was taken from a friends phone. Quality is bad because the display was revolving. It doesn't look like Excalibur. Grip area is very different and looks much more ergonomic. Perhaps experts like ArmenT can identify this.

Nearby, there was a picture of a Sten gun with a silencer as long as the gun itself.

EDIT: Found it.

Its AMOGH. http://ofbindia.nic.in/products/data/we ... add_31.htm

• AMOGH Carbine 5.56 mm is specially designed and developed for close quarter battle (CQB) role.
• It fires 5.56 x 30 mm ammunition specially developed for carbine role.
• The weapon is ergonomically designed, light in weight, easy to carry, handle, operate and maintain
• Barrel of the weapon is chromium plated for longer life.
• It has ambidextrous lever change operation.
• It is provided with Reflex sight & Bayonet as accessories.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 23 Nov 2011 14:28

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 Nov 2011 16:11

VinayGji,
Could be because the engines have a much better MTBF.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 Nov 2011 17:32

VinayG wrote:i have question

Why didn't we started our LCA with a Russian engine like the pandas till kaveri gets matured what is the reason for going for an American one please gurus throw some light

Which Russian engine would you propose they would have used? Assuming that you mean RD-33..
Kaveri and GE-404 have closer diameters while RD-33 has a much larger diameter. On top of that RD-33 has a "much" lower thrust rating.
But even if we discount all that, RD-33 at that time was a highly problematic engine. Remember the smoke and low MTBO of old IAF Mig-29s? So, it was hardly an appropriate engine to be used safely on LCA.

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 23 Nov 2011 20:24

Gaur Ji sorry for not being clear in my question

I was actually proposing SMR-95 A model of RD series for upgrading international 3rd generation jet fighters. where The accessory gearbox is repositioned below the engine, length can be varied depending on the adopted aircraft fuselage. The flight performance and combat efficiency of these fighter equipped with the new engine improved by a factor ranging from 1.2 to 3.0. Owing to the SMR-95 excellent gas flow stability against ambient disturbances, including the use of onboard weapons, there are no restrictions on aircraft control. These engines also have a high rate of thrust increase and, consequently, flight acceleration, which is especially critical for front-line fighters.

which would have been easy since this engine was developed during the mid 90s same time when the Tejas was on the drawing board so the adjustments in the diameter would have been possible because the it dosent mention the minimum diameter of fuselage but the maximum diameter is 1040mm according to klimov and Kaveri 910mm and GE 889mm so adjustment might have been possiable since tejas was still on drawing board or prototype stage . And also GTX-35VS "Kaveri" Full-scale development was authorized in April 1989 if we would have invested in SMR-95 A which was in developmental stage during the same period where the K 10 Program which is a Joint Venture (JV) partnership with a foreign engine manufacturer would have been done with klimov in the 90's rather than July 2007. the hiccups like Kaveri had a tendency to "throw" turbine blades, which required securing blades from SNECMA as well as digital engine control systems and other technical issues would have been solved. critical tech input from klimov might have helped kaveri to achieve its dead line

SMR-95 A

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 23 Nov 2011 20:55

VinayG wrote:SMR-95 A

that still gives only 81.4KN!!

how could it have helped (keeping aside design modifications)?

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 23 Nov 2011 22:08

double post

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 23 Nov 2011 22:16

pragnya wrote:
VinayG wrote:SMR-95 A
that still gives only 81.4KN!!

how could it have helped (keeping aside design modifications)?

what i mean is SMR-95 A achieved 81.4KN with full operational clearance in 90s if we would have got that tech or a Joint Venture (JV) partnership in the 90's we could have improved it buy now and the tech inputs gained would have been used to solve all the current issues by now and kaveri would have been operational

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 24 Nov 2011 19:14

sudhan wrote:A nice compilation of the LGM-118 testing..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHlYc_MzvLk

I have a question, what is being tested at 1:27?

and a interesting collapsible nozzle @ 3:17

Could the gurus give their views on my question?

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 25 Nov 2011 16:22

Gurus Does Arjun Tank being touted as better than T-90, does it have NBC protection like T-90 has.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 25 Nov 2011 20:36

ChiragAS,
IIRC, all tanks from 1950's come with NBC protection, albeit of varying degrees depending on the technology available at the time..

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 26 Nov 2011 11:50

Is it possible to mount a rotating IRST (passive monitoring) on an 4x4 armored jeep with enough battery power for 2-3 days monitoring, and deploy them on Chinese border at 20-80 km intervals to track an intruder or offensive formations as an defensive strategy. I am not unable to determine IRST power requirements and Google chahca is of no help.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Nov 2011 12:26

you haven't seen the bolero with an optronics ball that M&M has been displaying at defexpo since donkey years ? even tata has a similar one.

chiragAS wrote:Gurus Does Arjun Tank being touted as better than T-90, does it have NBC protection like T-90 has.

NBC protection works on a simple procedure, the tank should be able to operate in completely hatch down conditions and the internal air pressure is maintained at a higher pressure so that contaminated air from outside does not get in. arjun is designed to be much more safer and comfortable than the T-90 in any possible Indian environment and scenario.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Nov 2011 14:54

shiv wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Considering that they lost a man too, we should refrain from expressing emotions that maybe mis-interpreted.
While I am happy to see a dent in the marketing attempts of the JF-17, there is a sadder angle for them in this.
^^dated 26th November 2011

Khalsa wrote:Shiv
Your point ?

It is heart wrenching to see you lament the sad angle to a fatal Pakistani JF-17 crash. Particularly poignant on the anniversary of the 26/11 terrorist attacks, sponsored by the Pakistani armed forces. By coincidence I picked up the issue of Vayu that relates the incident in 1965 when a PAF Sabre shot down an Indian civilian aircraft. And there's a map. Guess what? The aircraft was shot down well inside Indian territory.

Sad angle indeed.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 26 Nov 2011 15:25

Shiv sir,
Just because the enemy is barbarian doesn't necessitate that we become one too, right sir?? I am not the one for calling them as our long lost brother but when a professional dies, a professional dies. That is all.
JMO.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Nov 2011 15:49

Bala Vignesh wrote:Shiv sir,
Just because the enemy is barbarian doesn't necessitate that we become one too, right sir?? I am not the one for calling them as our long lost brother but when a professional dies, a professional dies. That is all.
JMO.

Your view is your view. I am quite happy to celebrate the death of every single Pakistani. In my view this is not the time to be showing mercy or compassion towards any Pakistani. They understand the sentiment very well. The time to hit them, humiliate them. mock them and laugh at them is when they are down and out. For that is what they did to India.

In my view you have a "softy" opinion of Pakistan out of sheer ignorance of what Pakistan is today. And you have a short memory too about what was done to Sq Leader Ajay Ahuja in 1999. I had pointed out in another thread that in the 1960s and 70s South Indians had been less exposed to the dirty face of Pakistan because of physical distance compared to those living in J&K, Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat, Bengal and Assam, even Maharastra. Pakistanis have thrived on the fact that they will always get sympathy from a set of Indians and not a ruthless and cold abhorrence. Lucky Pakis.

When that civilian plane was shot down in 1965, it was a PAF pilot flying in Indian airspace. "He was only doing his job" you might say. War had not broken out yet. You and others might want to shed a tear or two for a Paki "professional" whose only reason for existence s to kill Indians. But please spare me the mushy explanation and the moralistic sermon. I think 26th November is the wrong day to be shedding tears for Pakistanis.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 26 Nov 2011 16:06

Well sir,
for one I was more in Delhi than in Bangalore. Secondly I full well remember what was done to Sqn Ldr Ahuja and Nachiket along with a score of other PoW's.
I will never give a Paki a drop of water but I'll never pi$$ on their graves father's

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Nov 2011 16:11

Bala Vignesh wrote:Well sir,
for one I was more in Delhi than in Bangalore. Secondly I full well remember what was done to Sqn Ldr Ahuja and Nachiket along with a score of other PoW's.
I will never give a Paki a drop of water but I'll never pi$$ on their graves father's

You are welcome to pi$$ or not pi$$ when it suits you. But please don't try and impose your version of bladder control on me by asking whether "we" should become barbarians or not. You make the decision for yourself, and I make the decision for myself.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Nov 2011 16:14

please cool down folks, no need to lose sleep over this.

in any case, the only good paki is a dead paki, unless otherwise proven by his/her actions.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 26 Nov 2011 16:24

Bala Vignesh wrote:I will never give a Paki a drop of water but I'll never pi$$ on their...

The question is more about pakis' is to be pissed upon, not by whom.

It doesn't matter who does it as long as it is pakis.

My 2 paisa is that the one who does is as much a gentleman and responding, perhaps more, as the one who doesn't.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 27 Nov 2011 00:56

shiv,

++1008

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Nov 2011 05:54

Even if pakis are long lost bros, Indians dont have to desist from dealing with them. Remember, Vibhishana and Sugreeva.

Mocking the dead needs to be avoided if it can be avoided. But there are also exceptions to the rule. Lets say Paki soldiers are professional(i.e. they kill their 'enemies' only because they are ordered and as such have no personal hatred. And they never violate the basic human dignity of captured/subjugated enemy). Lets assume that paki army is also professional. Under these assumptions, should the dead pakis be mocked? Depends. If mocking gives psy op advantages then maybe it can be used. The benign souls might not want to use such tactics.

But, are the paki soldiers professional? Is the paki army professional? Did the soldiers not bear any ill-will towards Indians(specifically, hindus). Did they not behave in crude manner when they could?
If the answers are yes, then do these people deserve sympathy and respect? Not really.

Then, should we descend to their level? This is tricky. It is better to avoid such descendence, if it can be helped. But when you are forced to wrestle with pig, you cant avoid the associated $h*t. So, the unavoidable degradation of one's character while dealing with scums can be considered a collateral. One can later do prayaschittam to restore the mental state.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 27 Nov 2011 10:18

Shivavare,
I will never even think about imposing my views on anyone. I was just expressing my opinion, not imposing it.

Rahul M wrote:please cool down folks, no need to lose sleep over this.

in any case, the only good paki is a dead paki, unless otherwise proven by his/her actions.

Again, at the risk of repeating myself, i believe there is no need to be petty just because the other guy is being so.
As for the second point, amen to that.

JohneeG,
I will never say that the TSPA is a professional force. They are just a bunch of misguided psychopaths getting paid for being that.

Anyways, my last post on the topic.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 27 Nov 2011 10:28

Fine Shiv, your point is understood and we disagree. I can't feel jubiliant for the loss of that pilot in that crash.

Howver I must defend myself now that I understand why you brought in dates.
I feel sad for the Bombay attacks all the time. My sadness has nothing to do with dates, nor does my behaviour (in this case). I am affected by those events just like you are.
And if the Pakistanis kill our civilians without code or honour (by shooting the CM's plane or attacking Bombay) then I am glad we don't. We are not barbarians like them.

However, Your approach is your approach and I do NOT wish to impose myself on you.
If the people who posted on the crash of the JF-17 feel that I was trying to impose on them then I retract my sermon to them

Next time I will make it clear that it is only my humble opinion, for myself.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 27 Nov 2011 10:29

shiv wrote: Pakistanis have thrived on the fact that they will always get sympathy from a set of Indians and not a ruthless and cold abhorrence. Lucky Pakis.

So true sirji, these very set of Indians are the cause of our humiliation time and again. We need to get rid of this set and only then we will be able to eliminate pakis. Other wise each and every time India needs to give pakis a sound haddi tod thrashing these very people come out of slumber and start preaching about morality and all that which derails an otherwise just action.

shiv wrote:I think 26th November is the wrong day to be shedding tears for Pakistanis.

Just to add sirji I think any day is a wrong day to shed tears for bakistan.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 27 Nov 2011 11:06

johneeG wrote:But, are the paki soldiers professional? Is the paki army professional? Did the soldiers not bear any ill-will towards Indians(specifically, hindus). Did they not behave in crude manner when they could?
If the answers are yes, then do these people deserve sympathy and respect? Not really.

This social sense of expecting better & giving sympathy should not be wasted on barbarians. This is precious and should not be misplaced. My 2 paise onlee.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Nov 2011 08:00

Shiv wrote:And perhaps the right thing to do would be to say "Wing Commander Rakesh Sharma" rather than the "Mr.". Or just Rakesh Sharma I guess. Rakesh was a colleague of late Sq. Ldr Baldev Singh and my cousin late Wg Cdr Suresh.

Folks why dont we ever write Wing Commander (Late) XXX instead we write (Late) Wing Commander XXX

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Nov 2011 09:46

suryag wrote:
Shiv wrote:And perhaps the right thing to do would be to say "Wing Commander Rakesh Sharma" rather than the "Mr.". Or just Rakesh Sharma I guess. Rakesh was a colleague of late Sq. Ldr Baldev Singh and my cousin late Wg Cdr Suresh.
Folks why dont we ever write Wing Commander (Late) XXX instead we write (Late) Wing Commander XXX

I think your point is technically correct. It should be as you point out. They are not late ranks but late people.

mikehurst · Post by **mikehurst** » 28 Nov 2011 09:47

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/11/s ... radar.html

Just read this post; these former LRDE members would be a gold mine of information on the radar and electronic capability and history of India. Was hoping that we hold a Banglore BRF meet, and invite these people to share their experiences. We could then take it from there, there being various options; either we could hook them to the BRF site or get them to give nuggets of info when they feel like it to local BRFites, who then can post it for the wider audience.

- Mike.

[1] edit: wrong link.

P.S: Could I be pointed to the appropriate link for discussing the Defence Procurement Policy. I have made a primer on the 2008 DPP with updates on the changes in the latest one and was hoping to upload it here. Was not able to find a 'thread' dedicated to this.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Nov 2011 10:17

What new info will you get from these ex-scientists Mikeji ? The same sad one will eb repeated "we developed soemthing and the services dint like"

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Nov 2011 22:55

suryag wrote:What new info will you get from these ex-scientists Mikeji ? The same sad one will eb repeated "we developed soemthing and the services dint like"

Actually it is pretty interesting meeting them because they know things we did not know existed and are willing to talk about stuff that is now unclassified. To that extent the question "What new info will you get" is cynically unfair - you won't know unless you interact. And oh I suppose they should be called "retired scientists" I guess?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 29 Nov 2011 12:01

retired scientists yes sir jee sorry and I guess you understood the grief behind my "sad statement". It was compounded after you posted about the seeker episode and also after the incidents of our wire guided ATGM/project DEvil apart from the Arjun. Am pretty sure if the Arjun had been a Chinese program they would have inducted it way back in 1996. I am also pretty sure the same would have been the case with Pinaka had it been a Chinese product, as a young guy i used to be really puzzled(I didnt know of natashas or rodinas then) on hearing that Pinaka's longer loading times and absence of HESH warheads were the reasons behind it not being inducted

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 29 Nov 2011 15:07

Bomb Detection Made 10 Times Easy With Graphene Foam!

Researchers from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute co-led by Prof. Nikhil Koratkar and Prof. Hui-Ming Cheng have developed a way which is 10 times more efficient than these gas sensors.

An Indian and Chinese working in harmony for the good of Khan

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Nov 2011 11:51

shiv wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:Shiv sir,
Just because the enemy is barbarian doesn't necessitate that we become one too, right sir?? I am not the one for calling them as our long lost brother but when a professional dies, a professional dies. That is all.
JMO.
Your view is your view. I am quite happy to celebrate the death of every single Pakistani. In my view this is not the time to be showing mercy or compassion towards any Pakistani. They understand the sentiment very well. The time to hit them, humiliate them. mock them and laugh at them is when they are down and out. For that is what they did to India.

In my view you have a "softy" opinion of Pakistan out of sheer ignorance of what Pakistan is today. And you have a short memory too about what was done to Sq Leader Ajay Ahuja in 1999. I had pointed out in another thread that in the 1960s and 70s South Indians had been less exposed to the dirty face of Pakistan because of physical distance compared to those living in J&K, Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat, Bengal and Assam, even Maharastra. Pakistanis have thrived on the fact that they will always get sympathy from a set of Indians and not a ruthless and cold abhorrence. Lucky Pakis.

When that civilian plane was shot down in 1965, it was a PAF pilot flying in Indian airspace. "He was only doing his job" you might say. War had not broken out yet. You and others might want to shed a tear or two for a Paki "professional" whose only reason for existence s to kill Indians. But please spare me the mushy explanation and the moralistic sermon. I think 26th November is the wrong day to be shedding tears for Pakistanis.

In my Humble opinion joining Paki armed forces given the history is an intention to kill Indians, the more that die the better. There is no moral compulsion for me in the death of an evil person. If the JF-17 is shown to have unreliable ejection seat all the better. There is nothing better than Paki aircraft being Hanger queens, this reduces the confidence of Paki armed forces which has a direct equation with the boldness of terrorist strikes against India. A weak Pakistan with Weak Pakistani Armed forces means a Terror free India.