Understanding Sikh History-1

[parsuram]

Nagesh ji: seriously, as I said, I have done nothing to deserve any mention or merit. My ancesters were in a position to do what needed done. I hope that all of us would be able to do what needs done if we are in a position to do so. But thank you for your comment, however undeserved.

PS: If you have to pay homage, then, when you are in Dehli, go to Chanani Chowk, to the Guru Dwara Sees Ganj and pay homage to guru and his desciples martyred at that spot by aurangzeb.

[Agnimitra]

Well The code and sense of brotherhood is what is needed. We need to unite and not divide.

Maybe another tactical advantage of declaring kshaatra incubators as loosely grafted from Sikh tradition would be govt. benefits and immunity from p-sec criticism which usually targets "majority" mobilization. This Bir Khalsa show controversy was a good example of getting past such naatak by some pompous judges. Any thoughts?

[jamwal]

jamwal wrote:
Why not enroll the kids in to the nearest RSS shakha instead ? It's going to be less confusing for everyone involved. The times when this custom started were very different from present. Even some non-dhimmis might think twice before associating with RSS, but IMHO it's much better than what you suggested. Grooming a son as a Sikh instead of a normal Hindu isn't going to make him better.

by Carl
Well, unlike RSS, none of the Sikh Gurus or political leaders ever made public claims of being "atheist". That alone gives me more confidence in Sikh kshaatra than RSS shaakha. I mean no offence at all to any RSS members, its an individual preference. But even RSS likes to use the personalities of Sikh Gurus by putting up their pictures here and there. If they were truer to the other threads that go into the fabric of Sikh dharma, then it would have been better.

Kesh, kadaa, etc are externals that may be modified in a modern branch that is an offshoot brotherhood (samparday) of Sikhism. But you can't put the divine core back into a movement like the RSS that sprung from purely communal-nationalistic impulse. And in that respect (of its seed) it cannot compare with Sikhism. Forget the 10 Gurus - where is a Bhai Kanhaiya in RSS history? That is kshaatra dharma, IMHO.

Carl saar,
Let's not get into RSS Vs Khalsa here. As I said in my post, even some nationalistic people might have trouble with RSS ideology. I don't have any such reservations now and support RSS in most of their endeavours. I'm also an atheist by choice as in I don't believe in God. If some RSS members feel the same way or even if they don't, it hardly matters to me. All that I care for they work towards strengthening Indic values which I feel they are trying to do. Sikhism and RSS, both are a product of very different times and needs. You can have a Shyama Prasad Mukherjee, but not someone like Guru Teg Bahadur these days. RSS was not meant to be a spiritual guide as Sikhism.

If enrolling the kids in Gurudwara does the same, I'm all for it. But I'd prefer it that they do it without all the rigidity and ritualism that is prevalent in Sikhism these days. Their stress on 5 symbols and some strange sense of separate identity is difficult to digest. The way it is these days, Sikhs seem to follow more customs and superstitions than medieval Hindus. Sure you can make a different samprday which is not as rigid, but will it lead to unity or just more fights on who is a better Sikh ? If you can trust my word, I've seen too many fights amongst Sikh youth on this issue.
But the thing that troubles me most is increasing visibility of infamous Khalistanis in videos, tshirts, posters etc. I don't think that people who support Khalistanis have any respect for any other religion or love for the country.
I've met many "enlightened" Sikhs who loudly announce that Sikhs have more in common with Muslims than Hindus and that Sikhs have always been a superior martial race. That's not just on internet forums but in real life. We all know of one such superior martial religion which had the same delusions about itself.
Reading about all the Sikh heroes always filled me with immense pride and respect, but you can't live in past. There are quite a few brain washed bad apples today

[SBajwa]

by Jamwal
But the thing that troubles me most is increasing visibility of infamous Khalistanis in videos, tshirts, posters etc. I don't think that people who support Khalistanis have any respect for any other religion or love for the country.
I've met many "enlightened" Sikhs who loudly announce that Sikhs have more in common with Muslims than Hindus and that Sikhs have always been a superior martial race. That's not just on internet forums but in real life.

This phenomenon is only in few places in Canada and some places in USA, but not in India, England or other places. In our local Gurdwara (Pittsburgh, PA, USA) we don't allow people to say anything negative about India and we do participate in Indian independence function every year. 35% of our Sangat is Sindhis and Hindu Punjabis. Last year we hosted a person from Calcutta who was going around the world on a bike., we collected over $2000.00 for his endeavor.

This was much worse in 1980s and 1990s but with Internet, movies and cheap information it is not that much apparent.

Khalistanis in USA and Canada gets heavily funded from ISI.

[jamwal]

You can see Khalistani posters and propaganda in Jammu as well as Delhi. Don't know about Punjab as I haven't been there for a long time.

[bahdada]

by Jamwal
But the thing that troubles me most is increasing visibility of infamous Khalistanis in videos, tshirts, posters etc. I don't think that people who support Khalistanis have any respect for any other religion or love for the country.
I've met many "enlightened" Sikhs who loudly announce that Sikhs have more in common with Muslims than Hindus and that Sikhs have always been a superior martial race. That's not just on internet forums but in real life.

This phenomenon is only in few places in Canada and some places in USA, but not in India, England or other places. In our local Gurdwara (Pittsburgh, PA, USA) we don't allow people to say anything negative about India and we do participate in Indian independence function every year. 35% of our Sangat is Sindhis and Hindu Punjabis. Last year we hosted a person from Calcutta who was going around the world on a bike., we collected over $2000.00 for his endeavor.

This was much worse in 1980s and 1990s but with Internet, movies and cheap information it is not that much apparent.

Khalistanis in USA and Canada gets heavily funded from ISI.

It's just not Khalistani's. It's somehow seeped into mainstream Sikh consciousness.

Checkout the Langar Hall blog.

[paramu]

Let's not get into RSS Vs Khalsa here. As I said in my post, even some nationalistic people might have trouble with RSS ideology. I don't have any such reservations now and support RSS in most of their endeavours. I'm also an atheist by choice as in I don't believe in God. If some RSS members feel the same way or even if they don't, it hardly matters to me. All that I care for they work towards strengthening Indic values which I feel they are trying to do. Sikhism and RSS, both are a product of very different times and needs. You can have a Shyama Prasad Mukherjee, but not someone like Guru Teg Bahadur these days. RSS was not meant to be a spiritual guide as Sikhism.

Well said jamwal. If you look at the scenarios when these two evolved, you can see the differences.

When Islamists were torturing Hindus, what was needed was to remilitarize to defeat them, while being fully conscious about the religious and spiritual roots.

Creation of RSS was during a period when British were ruling and playing games on Indians. They were creating continuous riots/wars between Hindus and Muslims, with tactical support to Muslims. Also, ideologies such as communism, secularism etc. were pumped into the Indian society to create confusion. They were master psychological players and took Sikhs with them and slowly created a separate identity for them. This kind of attack needed a well thought out political response, and that is what RSS does. I believe that RSS still has a long role to play in our society as the international game is not over yet.

[SBajwa]

They were master psychological players and took Sikhs with them and slowly created a separate identity for them. This kind of attack needed a well thought out political response, and that is what RSS does. I believe that RSS still has a long role to play in our society as the international game is not over yet.

RSS is a very weak organization without any specific tactical and strategic goals. What is a tactical goal?

1. What to do in next three months (the person slapping Sharad PAwar is a tactical war against corruption) is a tactical goal.

2. What to in the next 10 years (Baba Ramdev is working on an excellent strategic strategy which by the time he is in his early 60s will bear its fruit).

but!! RSS never defines its any goals (short or long) and is always ready to take on people (mostly muslims) who say anything against them. I think RSS is a failure so far because of its leadership while its cadets are very good. It is a failure of RSS than majority of the people think of RSS (in India itself) as same as "Muslim League". WHY?

Why can't RSS go all out and publicize about simple stuff like

1. RSS does not believe in a God that rapes 6 years old girls.
2. RSS does not believe in a God that enslaves people who do not believe him.
3. RSS does not believe in a God that tells its people to face him 5 times a day and pray.
4. RSS does not believe in a God that tells its people to marry their first cousins.
5. RSS does not believe in a God that tells its followers to kill others who do not believe in their God.

what is so hard about propagating above? only Rabid muslims will be out there baying for your blood!! but
as an organization RSS needs to come out and help its country and country men!!

RSS needs to have charity organization to help Hindus in Manipur, Nagaland, Kashmir, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria and where ever in the world they are getting persecuted.

RSS needs to have lawyers and enough money to propagate their long term and short term cause.


RSS so far in its more than 70 years of organization has been a total failure in

1. Health of the people of india (how many sportsmen it sponsered who won olympic medals?)

2. Security of the people of India (what did they did to stop 26/11 or any other attack, did they tried to go to Kashmir and confront the Jihadis?)

3. Protection of Values of the ancient sages of India (Ramanand Sagar and B.R chopra have done more to protect the values of India than RSS).

So!! RSS only has a nuisance value which does not help anybody but Muslims who reply by saying look "RSS is same as LET"

but if RSS can train few people who kill Dawood and other terrorists in Pakistan against India it is a win-win situation but RSS has not done anything.

[Agnimitra]

by Jamwal
But the thing that troubles me most is increasing visibility of infamous Khalistanis in videos, tshirts, posters etc. I don't think that people who support Khalistanis have any respect for any other religion or love for the country.
I've met many "enlightened" Sikhs who loudly announce that Sikhs have more in common with Muslims than Hindus and that Sikhs have always been a superior martial race. That's not just on internet forums but in real life.

It's just not Khalistani's. It's somehow seeped into mainstream Sikh consciousness.

Checkout the Langar Hall blog.

The best way to resolve that problem would be to mobilize an expansionary movement with roots in Sikhi. The thing is that the average Joe(ginder) in any community is always attracted to the most dynamic wave emanating from the doctrine. This is especially true for kshatriya groups like Sikhism were there is considerable rajo-guna in terms of productivity and community dynamics. In recent decades this dynamic wave has been the Khalistan movement as far as Sikhism is concerned. So that's why the youth and some middle class expats with some idle disposable income and influence to flaunt will be naturally attracted to such a movement, which has not been good for Vedic dharma, of which Sikhism is an arm.

Such lay members of any community with some money and influence to spare, are looking for a "worthy cause". And nothing attracts like the smell of success. For a while when India was weak and our enemies talked of splitting us into 100 pieces, the Khalistan movement had an air of imminent success around it. Now that bravado has turned to sour puss complaining, bitching and moaning.

But the energy should not be allowed to go to waste. It needs to be re-channelized in a positive direction. Otherwise we may see the even worse scenario of the petering out and dissolution of Sikhism itself as a viable and strong force. Sikhs would disperse into a group of grudging closet Khalistanis on one hand, and a tame, resigned majority who will throw their lot in with India's progress on the other hand. But there will be no central focus and mission of this community w.r.t. Dharma as a whole. This would be a double loss -- not only for Sikhs, but for Dharmic India as a whole.

So the best way to funnel and re-channel that energy from negative to positive, is by creating a new expansionary movement within India, which will automatically become the subject of conversation in Sikh and Hindu homes and community centers. Slowly but surely, this will pay great dividends, in terms of real invigoration of Dharmic society as a whole (apart from Sikhism itself). Full reintegration of Sikhs will be a mere side-effect of such a process. A double loss will be converted to a win-win.

[jamwal]

They were master psychological players and took Sikhs with them and slowly created a separate identity for them. This kind of attack needed a well thought out political response, and that is what RSS does. I believe that RSS still has a long role to play in our society as the international game is not over yet.

RSS is a very weak organization without any specific tactical and strategic goals. What is a tactical goal?

1. What to do in next three months (the person slapping Sharad PAwar is a tactical war against corruption) is a tactical goal.

2. What to in the next 10 years (Baba Ramdev is working on an excellent strategic strategy which by the time he is in his early 60s will bear its fruit).
<<SNIP>>.

RSS volunteers have done hell lot of back breaking work than most people give them credit for since it's inception. I agree that it's leadership hasn't been great but that's no reason for spreading misinformation. It'd have been better if you had tried searching for some information yourself.

Liberation of Dadra, Nagar Haveli and Goa

After the Independence of India, many organizations including the RSS aspired to liberate Dadra and Nagar Haveli from Portuguese occupation. In early 1954, volunteers Raja Wakankar and Nana Kajrekar of the RSS visited the area round about Dadra and Nagar Haveli and Daman several times to study the topography and also to get acquainted with the local workers who were agitating for the liberation. In April 1954, the RSS formed a coalition with the National Movement Liberation Organization (NMLO), the and Azad Gomantak Dal (AGD) for the liberation of Dadra and Nagar Haveli.[57] On the night of 21 July, United front of Goans, a group, working independently of the coalition, captured the Portuguese police station at Dadra and declared Dadra as free. Subsequently on 28 July, volunteer teams of the RSS and AGD captured the territories of Naroli and Phiparia and ultimately the capital of Silvassa. The Portuguese forces which escaped and moved towards Nagar Haveli, were assaulted at Khandvel and were forced to retreat till they surrendered to the Indian border police at Udava on 11 August 1954. A native administration was setup with Appasaheb Karmalkar of NMLO as the Administrator of Dadra and Nagar Haveli on 11 August 1954.[57]

Role during the 1962 Sino-Indian War

The RSS which had been keeping low profile after the lifting of the ban, earned recognition based on its volunteer work during the Sino-Indian War in 1962.[59] RSS was invited by Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru to take part in the Indian Republic day parade of 1963.[60] It along with several other civilian organizations took part in the parade.[61] This event helped the RSS increase its popularity and its patriotic image.[62][63][64]

Later in 1965 and 1971 Indo-Pak wars too, the RSS volunteers offered their services to maintain law and order of the country and were apparently the first to donate blood.[65]

During Amarnath land agitation in 2008, RSS volunteers in Jammu helped organising quite few camps where people from weaker sections of society were helped.
A lot of background work for BJP is done by RSS volunteers.


I'm really surprised by your criticism of it's apparent lack of interest in fighting militant Islam. I don't think that you need to be told what can be done within law in this matter.

http://news.oneindia.in/2006/06/25/jk-r ... ldren.html

Reasi (J&K), Jun 25: The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) affiliated NGO, Sewa Bharti has adopted 100 children, most of them Muslims, from militancy affected areas of Jammu and Kashmir to provide them education at least upto Higher Secondary level.

The group of 57 children (38 Muslims and 19 Hindus) including nine girls, in the age group of six to 13 years, from militancy affected areas of Gul, Mohore, Dharmani and Buddhal tehsils in Udhampur and Rajouri districts, left for New Delhi yesterday and reached the RSS headquarters in New Delhi this morning.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 496555.cms
The Goa government, along with Seva Bharti, a socio-cultural wing of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), had undertaken rehabilitation of 19 villages in the quake-affected state, one of which was Devgad, Parrikar said.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/jul/25w ... tution.htm
The 'Arogya Rakshak' (village health volunteer) scheme being run in remote villages of various states, the 'Bal Gokulam' of Kerala [ Images ], the 'Char Sutri Dhan' scheme of Maharashtra [ Images ], the self help groups of Tamil Nadu, projects for 'street children' in Delhi [ Images ] and other metros, the 'education for child labour' project in Andhra, are but few sample examples of the all encompassing initiative of Swayamsevaks working in social service field.


This year, 10,479 Swayamsevaks from 6,982 places participated as trainees in the 'Pratham Varsha' (first year) Sangh Shiksha Varg, which is a part of a three year course.

I don't think that any positive effects brought on by Khalsa panth neutralizes the harm done by Khalistanis to India over the last 30 years. It's very widely prevalent mentality amongst Sikhs today that they had been the warrior marital religion which protected Hindus from Muslims, while Hindus just cowered in their dhotis. Fact that it were Hindu families itself which had been enrolling their sons in to Sikh panth is apparently lost on them. So is the contribution of many Hindus in the Sikh movement. Nobody ever mentions that 2 people who died along with Guru Teg Bahadur were Hindu Brahmins as mentioned in last page. As much as I know of it, Sikh clergy and related organisations are quite content with spread of all these half-truths.



Also I don't think that Hindus as a group have anything to apologize for 1984 riots. If Sikhs want an apology, they should ask Congress for that. Even before that, they should apologise for atrocities brought on by Khalistanis on general population. Assassins of Indira Gandhi, Bhindrawalein etc are being feted as heroes and their photographs are prominently displayed in Sikh homes and Gurudwaras. If that's a sign of nationalism, to hell with it. Just like how all Sikhs didn't support Khalistanis, not all Hindus supported 1984 riots either. To me, people who talk of such "healing" are no better than people falling for Aman KI Tamasha joke. A section of Sikhs got brain washed, killed thousands and when the inevitable backlash happened, the fault lies with communal Hindus only whom we have been protecting for 100s of years. Disgusting

At one hand I have Sikh friends for whom I'll do anything and they for me, then there are these Khalistanis and their half-wit sympathisers.

[svinayak]

They were master psychological players and took Sikhs with them and slowly created a separate identity for them. This kind of attack needed a well thought out political response, and that is what RSS does. I believe that RSS still has a long role to play in our society as the international game is not over yet.

RSS needs to have charity organization to help Hindus in Manipur, Nagaland, Kashmir, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria and where ever in the world they are getting persecuted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seva_Bharati

[Tanaji]

This phenomenon is only in few places in Canada and some places in USA, but not in India, England or other places.

Er, some Gurudwaras in London have prominent photos of Bhindranwale. Southall gurudwara (the bigger one) has a huge portrait of Bhindranwale staring down at you in their Langar hall.

But I get your point.

[SBajwa]

Sikhs and Hindus are getting together to face islamic sexual perverts around the world.

[SBajwa]

This is first time I am hearing about sea bharati, they need some media attention.

[SBajwa]

Jamwal I am not sure who is demanding apology for 1984, rather it will help if culprits of riots are put behind bars. Congress is 100% responsible for bhindrenwale as well as November 84 riots. Congress is not a Hindu party.

[Yayavar]

This phenomenon is only in few places in Canada and some places in USA, but not in India, England or other places.

Er, some Gurudwaras in London have prominent photos of Bhindranwale. Southall gurudwara (the bigger one) has a huge portrait of Bhindranwale staring down at you in their Langar hall.

But I get your point.

Unfortunately I saw Shahbeg, Satwant Singh etc, all prominently displayed in the Golden temple in Amritsar. This is in the 'museum' within the premises. Some of my fellow travellers refused to enter and waited for me in the Jalianwalah bagh. So the rift is there. At the same time there are others who never let it develop inspite of everything.

[Agnimitra]

Jamwal ji, I would like to say that I admire the RSS for many things, especially their active service to the rashtra in so many different ways. What I was suggesting, though, is a movement to link up and harvest the good memes of Sikhism for the future. The Khali-stani types will either review their misguided ideas and join up, or will just fall by the wayside with the passage of time, into the dustbin of history. One part of the movement should be that the Congress perpetrators of 1984 violence be brought to justice, one way or another.

[jamwal]

My 1984 riots comment was in response to post by Parsuram jii, who had suggested enrolling oldest son into Gurudwara in order to heal the so called rift between the two communities. (In TSP dhaga)

The way things are going right now, Sikh clergy is getting even more exclusive and disconnected from national stream. convicted terrorists and hate mongers are getting deified as sants and martyrs, that too in India. This spread of distorted history and resulting false sense of superiority is ominous and may lead to another Khalistani type movement in future. Nationalistic Sikhs need to open their eyes to this urgently

[SBajwa]

The way things are going right now, Sikh clergy is getting even more exclusive and disconnected from national stream. convicted terrorists and hate mongers are getting deified as sants and martyrs, that too in India. This spread of distorted history and resulting false sense of superiority is ominous and may lead to another Khalistani type movement in future. Nationalistic Sikhs need to open their eyes to this urgently

It does not looks like this to me at all. The extremist parties (led by Simranjit Singh Maan) have not won a single seat since last three elections in national elections and have just nuisance value (opposing advani for example with black flags) in day to day politics. People don't take them seriously at all.

Actually the vote bank in Punjab at this time is

1. Jat voters in Malwa area are with Badal, in Majha area are with Badal and in central Doaba it is anybody's game.
2. Vote banks of Dera Sacha Sauda of Baba Ram Rahim around the periphery of Punjab-Haryana border.
3. Vote banks of Radha Soamis and thousand other babas who either support Badal or Amarindar (congress).

so! In my opinion the Khalistanis have been thoroughly defeated and it does not looks like that they will come up in near future. I doubt if any Gurdwara in Punjab will house/support any Khalistani terrorists like some Mosques, Dargahs and muslims could.

The hate mongers will hate for their vested interests but Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab-Haryana-Himachal are together by relations (marriages) which are not easy to break.

In India 99% of the Sikhs are nationalistic sikhs (meaning they support the Indian nation)., You opinion is made up of Canadian/American sikhs who have been living outside of India from centuries but want Khalistan in India., even when Punjabi Sikhs don't want Khalistan.

So my question to these people is to forget (do you ever call in to Punjabi TVs) about Punjab and concentrate on the your well being here.

[Prem]

Time will heal the wounds completely and we know we are on the path , fully cognizant of past mistakes. Lets not forget the role of Congress have been very cruel and they bear the most of the responsibility. The seeds of original sin was sowed by Chacha to grow the DIE Pumpkins who have repeatedly taken the taste out of Indic Soul Soup by removing the salt of soil. Whenever national cohesiveness, reconcliation is about to happen, these Souless secularist eelites starts another shosha to torpedo the efforts. There is reason why BJP has alliance with Akalis from the JanSangh days.

[paramu]

SBajwaji,

If RSS is such a useless organization, why is that all leftists, secularists, globalists, EJs, jihadists etc. blame it for all the problems in the country. We all know that it was Sikhs who cleaned up Punjab during partition, and you hardly see anybody in this gang (except may be jihadists) blaming Sikhs, but you can see repeated false accusation that RSS man killed Gandhiji.

What you need to recognize is that the problems we face today are very different from what India faced 300 years ago. At that time, the trouble makers were well inside the country, and some in Afghanistan. But, today what we see are proxies. If you defeat one proxy, another one will come up after that and there will be no end to it. It is as simple as soviets fighting Mujahideen. It was not lack of military strength of soviets that failed them, but it was the fact that they were fighting proxies and the real enemy was not getting affected anyway by soviets' fighting.

What would have beeen the outcome, had RSS did what you said here:

2. Security of the people of India (what did they did to stop 26/11 or any other attack, did they tried to go to Kashmir and confront the Jihadis?)

Entire world will be shouting that some Pakistanis attacked India, and RSS attacked Kashmiris, so Kashmiris need to be separated from India. This would be a foolish thing to do from India's interest point of view.

It is not just physical strength that people should use to defeat enemies, they have to use their intellect to understand the enemy and the knowledge of when to use the power they have and when not to use.

[devesh]

the RSS cannot go beyond what its been doing. this isn't an excuse. that is the truth. that organization has been molded by the reality in which it was born. those ideologues who were interested in the organization were eliminated from the political and rashtriya apparatus ruthlessly. and Nehru and his chamchas didn't care much for it. RSS had to survive in this atmosphere where the politics was hostile to it. its journey has been shaped by this reality. and that is why, it has had to take up voluntary restraints on its activities because of the shackles imposed by the Rashtra. unless a less hostile political regime is established, which destroys the present apparatus' hatred of "hindutva", RSS will not truly take up the mantle of a resurgent Dharmic body.

[SBajwa]

What I am trying to say is that for me RSS is equivalent to Akali Party. Akalis are may be representing 10 million Sikhs but RSS is representing 1 billion Hindus!! They can easily organize themselves into a global organization of a bigger scale that is protecting Hindus around the World!! Why aren't they doing it? I am guessing that their leadership does not have that much of a brain or is very old.

From its inception RSS had a focus on very good goals but it has failed!!! Some young blood needs to take it over and remember that RSS does not mean India only it is the world!! Dharmic/Hindu diaspora is around the world., RSS should jump to next level and since it cannot even conceive that it is a failure in my eyes!!

RSS is representing more than 1 billion people.
Akalis and SGPC is represneting only 2 percent of Indian population.

RSS has much more responsibility and a bigger pool to do better things.

[SBajwa]

Why can't RSS jump to the rescue of Hindu girls in england whom are being sent to brothels of Hira Mandi in Lahore, after they become victim of Shahrukh and Salman khan movies thinking all muslims are good to the viles of Muslims of Lahore?
At least 100+ girls have become victim of this.

Why can't RSS come to the rescue of Hindus in Sindh?

They can get enough money and volunteer support all they need is good leadership!!! I know that in next 5-10 years they will get a good leadership which will gear them up towards these Dharmic deeds in far away places!!!

[devesh]

indeed, you raise some good points. I hope what you say about the future leadership in RSS is true. the crucial turning point will be when important nodes inside RSS realize that "history" is again changing its direction. that is when they will get the spark in their brains that the present regime is not a permanent fixation. even then, initially, it will be a very localized effort without any voice. at a certain "critical mass", the moles and infiltrated sections of the organization have to be thrown out.

[Agnimitra]

RSS is representing more than 1 billion people.
Akalis and SGPC is represneting only 2 percent of Indian population.

That specific 2% type needs to grow to at least 8%, and orgs like the RSS can and should help in this.

[Atri]

What I am trying to say is that for me RSS is equivalent to Akali Party. Akalis are may be representing 10 million Sikhs but RSS is representing 1 billion Hindus!! They can easily organize themselves into a global organization of a bigger scale that is protecting Hindus around the World!! Why aren't they doing it? I am guessing that their leadership does not have that much of a brain or is very old.

From its inception RSS had a focus on very good goals but it has failed!!! Some young blood needs to take it over and remember that RSS does not mean India only it is the world!! Dharmic/Hindu diaspora is around the world., RSS should jump to next level and since it cannot even conceive that it is a failure in my eyes!!

RSS is representing more than 1 billion people.
Akalis and SGPC is represneting only 2 percent of Indian population.

RSS has much more responsibility and a bigger pool to do better things.

Bajwa ji, here are my two cents..

IN words of Guruji (Golwalkar guruji), the transition will begin when 3% of urban population and 1% of rural population becomes motivated to perform disciplined actions required to establish dharma. RSS has to hold on until this critical mass is achieved.

It will not help if either one is achieved. it has to be both simultaneously, in order to initiate the process.. Look at the current happenings and try to listen to the rumblings of approaching chariot of time (metaphor of 'Dinkar' ji)

RSS had to disassociate with Savarkar's vision of pristine "Indicness" in order to be relevant in contemporary society. RSS can never say that they are atheists. Savarkar was proclaimed atheist. If you visit deracination dhaga, indics were predominantly atheists (not in western sense as there is difference between "Lord" and "Deva"), but in Indic sense. Atheist Buddha too talks and bows down to various devas and vice-versa.

As generations pass, society will start regaining its pre-adi sankara and later pre-buddha pristine character. But for that to happen, there needs few peculiar geopolitical changes to happen. The idea of savarkar has to be modified and brought back because it is offensive and not merely defensive.. The assassination of Mahatma was not a good move. While I do not question the patiotism of nathuram, i do question his understanding of the cause and direly suspect the negligence of british-nehru master-proxy coterie in allowing it to happen.. MKG was a wild card, too powerful to linger on.

Mughal-British-INC under nehru coterie) is one chain of polity. Marathas (Sikhs included)-Revolutionaries-Indic yoddhas (RSS is senapati of this front in modern times) forms another link of dharmaarthik legacy (socio-politico-economic).

This movement will graduate to Maratha-Khalsa style resistance when critical mass is achieved. The fourth tier of proxies ruling India (reference towards post of Vilayat ji) supported by global forces is putting all its weight towards not allowing this to happen. The priority of the org so far has been only to stay alive in minds of people. They have been successful in keeping the seed alive so far. Now the threat is direst. lets hope and help in the cause so that the seed stays unharmed.

Its not about sangathan.. it is about keeping that seed alive.. anything can be sacrificed to keep that seed of dharma alive.. anything, no matter how big the number and how great the stature is..

[Agnimitra]

Atri ji, thanks for that post. It helped put things into perspective for me.

RSS had to disassociate with Savarkar's vision of pristine "Indicness" in order to be relevant in contemporary society. RSS can never say that they are atheists. Savarkar was proclaimed atheist. If you visit deracination dhaga, indics were predominantly atheists (not in western sense as there is difference between "Lord" and "Deva"), but in Indic sense. Atheist Buddha too talks and bows down to various devas and vice-versa.

Like many, I was also personally put off by the so-called "atheism" of RSS people, as well as some hypocrisy. (I heard that Advani's daughter was married and converted?) There are many people like me who are wary of "atheism" (including "occult atheism" and elevationism), as well as neo-Advaitist pantheism. I will check the deracination dhaga for explanations.

As generations pass, society will start regaining its pre-adi sankara and later pre-buddha pristine character.

I can't wait for both these makeshift ideologies to unravel and be "cooked" out of the depths of our cultural consciousness!

[Sanku]

Uhh, Sorry basic question, why/what is Atheism in the context of RSS?

[Atri]

I think Savarkar was meant instead of RSS..

[Agnimitra]

No, other RSS affiliates have also mentioned their "atheism" without explaining it. Advani was one, IIRC.

[SBajwa]

Can somebody please define what Atheism is?

[devesh]

^^^
very good question. it is so commonly used and abused, it's actually confusing. no sarcasm intended.

[Agnimitra]

SBajwa ji, check the 2nd page of the Deracination thread. Atri ji has a couple of posts on it that may indicate what is being referred to.

[Rahul M]

not sure what the problem is with atheism, I find no proof that there is a god/gods and can't bring myself to believe in one. SD gives me the freedom to stay an atheist/agnostic and still be culturally hindu. in fact every upanishad I have read or gita implores the reader to follow reason above all. I am merely following that(it's another matter that it also matches my personal ideals).

that said, I am quite taken by the consistency and precision of advaita vedanta, the way it is developed from first principles would match the development of any modern scientific theory.
this may sound biased but compared to it other philosophies sound like ad-hoc fiction developed by children on a whim.
however, the same problem is present in AV, what proof do we have that it is true, AFAIK we don't.

therefore, until such time I get proof, I can do no better than follow the instructions of the book I learned advaita vedanta from -- the katha-upanishad, and continue applying my sense of reasoning.

p.s. anyone knows what happened to naren ?

[Agnimitra]

Rahul M ji,

I'm not sure what "other philosophies" you refer to as "ad hoc fiction". Certainly there are many out there. But all bona fide schools of Vedanta are based on the Upanishads, though some do more justice to them than others (and to other limbs of the prasthaana-traya as well ).

I find no proof that there is a god/gods and can't bring myself to believe in one. SD gives me the freedom to stay an atheist/agnostic and still be culturally hindu. in fact every upanishad I have read or gita implore the reader to follow reason above all. I am merely following that(it's another matter that it also matches my personal ideals).

I just wrote up a small post on Madhva's Tattva-vaada philosophy (popularly labelled "Dvaita") on the Deracination thread. You will find that Madhva approves of a heuristic approach at the beginning. In fact, during inter-sect Vedanta debates, the Advaitists were crushed so mercilessly in terms of Upanishad and Brahma-sutras, that the sour losers accused the Maadhvas of being "taarkikas" (logicians, not Vedantists). However, what Madhva says is that every stage of cognition must reach a robust balance; then further cognition and realizations become possible. The cognition of God in one's heart cannot be "reached" by some watery "logic", but manifests only when that robust balance is achieved by more stable logic followed by its application in real life. Until then, not only will one "not have any reason" to believe in God, but one will also not be certain if one is "atheist" or "agnostic"! Veda gives the freedom to be agnostic until balance is reached and further progress is made.

Anyhow, my concern is that the pop-"Vedanta" market is flooded by this term "Advaita Vedanta" to the exclusion of others like Madhva's Tattvavaada. The historical fact is that the early Maadhvas had demolished the old Advaita Vedanta by their superior logic and proofs (undenied by their Advaitist counterparts). Since about the 15th century A.D. all forms of "neo-Advaita" kept cropping up, based on the contemporary social trends, inter-sect politics, and market demand. These neo-Advaitist recedivist symptoms would die down quickly -- but they would subtly or grossly infect and penetrate the surging Vaishnava movements, thus surviving virally.

Now in more recent times the problem is that, in the British era, these neo-Advaitist cliques managed to be gifted the responsibility of defining what "Hinduism" means, and in doing so they also decided to utterly misrepresent and box-in the genuine Dwaita tradition of Madhvacharya. That's what I'm a bit cranky about. I think this phase of "neo-Advaita" may have been good for us in the modern rashtra's infancy, and those who had lead that effort probably did so in all good wisdom. But at any rate, I do believe its about time that modern India discard that simplistic philosophical diaper and grow out of feeding on that mushy hodge-podge cooked up in rather thin logical gravy. Time to reach deeper into our civilizational resources and pull out the big guns. Enter Madhvacharya.

[Rahul M]

other philosophies as in that teach that there is one true 'male' god who gets angry now and then etc etc. also the concepts of absolute good and absolute evil, kind of like the absolute frame of reference physicists were searching for before the advent of relativity. seems very simplistic, almost childish to me.

I will look up madhava's philosophy. any online works available ?

>> Until then, not only will one "not have any reason" to believe in God, but one will also not be certain if one is "atheist" or "agnostic"!

intriguing. describes me quite well in fact.

[Agnimitra]

other philosophies as in that teach that there is one true 'male' god who gets angry now and then etc etc. also the concepts of absolute good and absolute evil,

Yeah see, that's not Madhva. Good and evil are relative to the observation, the observer, and the ability to observe. However, there are absolute modes (tri-guNas), a deep concept easily misunderstood by others, as is his philosophy of eternal "damnation". Don't let it scare you away, its not the same as the Abrahamic idea!

I will look up madhava's philosophy. any online works available ?

Not sure online. for starters you can get B.N.K. Sharma's works on Madhva. Then you can try K.T. Pandurangi's translations of his commentary on the Upanishads, along with Jayatirtha's and Vadiraja-tirtha's gloss. Same with the Vedanta-sutras. Madhva also has important pre-requisite books written purely on the subject of logic!

[Rahul M]

I was talking of abrahamic philosophies only, that should be quite clear I think.

[Keshav]

I read a story somewhere where Swami Ramdas, before he met Shivaji, met with a Sikh guru who helped him understand the idea of the saint-soldier which he encouraged in Shivaji. Is this true or apocryphal?